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RollingNews.ie

Opinion Defence Forces personnel are the lowest paid workers in the public service

Oglaigh na h’Eireann is reaching a tipping point, a point of no return, in terms of recruitment, retention and falling numbers, writes Tom Clonan.

THIS WEEK HAS seen Ireland’s national discourse focus on ethics and moral probity in Irish public life. 

Fine Gael TD, Maria Bailey’s political future hangs in the balance as Taoiseach Leo Varadkar appoints a Senior Counsel to investigate her recent legal proceedings against the Dean Hotel in Dublin, following a fall from a swing on the premises.

The case raises serious questions, not just about Ireland’s ‘compensation culture,’ but also a pervasive ‘moral legalism’ that exists in many Irish institutions.

Simply put, in many areas of Irish public life, both in the public and private sector, ‘legal advice’ is often invoked as a defence for making decisions that are at best morally questionable and at worst, ethically indefensible.

In recent years, Irish citizens have endured a relentless series of scandals, a seemingly endless list from banking to health to policing to homelessness and so on – that seem part of an unending loop of intellectual and ethical failure in Irish institutions. 

As we rapidly approach the 100th anniversary of the foundation of the state, many citizens may struggle to find an example of a truly ethical organisation within Irish society – one with a culture based on public service, integrity and moral courage.

But there is one organisation which can truly stand over its record and that is Oglaigh na hEireann – the Irish Defence Forces. 

100 years of loyal service

Ireland’s armed forces, Army, Naval Service and Air Corps have given almost 100 years of unblemished, loyal public service to the state, both at home and abroad. 

Irish soldiers have given their lives in the service of peace, protecting some of the world’s most vulnerable citizens, in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Asia. 

The men and women of our Naval Service have saved thousands of lives in the Mediterranean, rescuing people from certain death. 

Our pilots and air-crew have given decades of selfless service, often putting themselves at risk, performing search and rescue operations in Atlantic storm force conditions off the west coast. 

But our Defence Forces are in deep crisis.  Oglaigh na h’Eireann is reaching a tipping point, a point of no return, in terms of recruitment, retention and falling numbers. 

This existential crisis within the Defence Forces has been signalled to the government for many years now. 

Independent studies carried out by the University of Limerick 2015 and 2017, along with other independent reports, have presented a comprehensive picture of an organisation that is in deep decline. 

The Defence Forces have reached the point where they are unable to service their mission to protect the state of Ireland, its territorial waters and airspace. 

This abject state of affairs is a direct consequence of the cuts imposed on defence spending in Ireland. 

Neither the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, who is Minister for Defence nor Minister of State for Defence Paul Kehoe, seems to understand the key role of our defence forces. 

Currently, the Irish Naval Service is tasked with patrolling 220 million maritime acres of sea and ocean – over 12 times the land mass of Ireland and 15% of Europe’s fisheries. 

The navy carries out thousands of physically challenging boardings and detentions in rough seas, year in, year out.  The Navy has intercepted some of the largest drug shipments in EU waters and is a vital component in Ireland’s emerging war on organised crime and drug gangs. 

The Air Corps fly the air ambulances and save hundreds of lives annually. 

Our Army personnel serve in Syria, the Golan Heights and in Lebanon – with thousands of Irish families enduring the absence of a father or mother for prolonged periods of overseas service. 

At home, Irish military personnel have provided crucial support to the civil authorities in the increasingly frequent weather events, from severe storms and flooding to heavy snow – that have battered the country in recent years. 

Wages and retention

Despite putting themselves in harm’s way in the course of their duties – Irish military personnel, are the lowest paid workers in the public service, according to the CSO. 

A whopping 85% of Irish military personnel earn less than the average industrial wage.

Ireland has the lowest defence spend in the EU as a per cent of GDP when it comes to military pay as well as allowances and equipment. 

As a consequence, turnover within the organisation has reached a critical point. Currently, there is an annual discharge rate of approximately 8.9% per annum. Internationally, the maximum acceptable turnover rate for the military is 5%.

Soldiers, sailors and aircrew are leaving the defence forces in their droves.  

Those quitting the organisation are often highly qualified, and almost irreplaceable, personnel, including IT specialists, aircraft and vehicle technicians, engineering and ordnance staff, pilots and medical personnel. 

Currently, there are only 7,700 personnel available for military duties across our army, naval service and air corps, that is despite a government commitment to maintain a minimum strength of 9,500.

These low numbers mean that Irish soldiers are required to do many more 24-hour security duties than should be the case. Sailors are rostered for punishing sea duties and patrol schedules that are poorly paid and inconsistent with family life – or indeed any normal life.

Within the navy, the discharge turnover is a massive 14% per annum – the equivalent of four ship’s complements annually. 

Even if the Department of Defence were to recruit an extra 750 recruits per annum that would not be enough to stem the tide of discharges and retirements within the organisation. 

Pay reform

The Public Service Pay Commission is due to report to Taoiseach Leo Varadkar next week to propose solutions to the current recruitment and retention crisis within the Defence Forces. 

In material leaked from the Commission’s deliberations, it is believed that a 10% increase in Military Service Allowance (MSA) will be recommended to the government. 

This recommendation from the Department of Defence would represent a pay increase of less than 1% for the average soldier.  This would represent an immoral and indefensible breach of the social contract that underpins military service in a democratic society – an unequivocal kick in the teeth to our sailors, soldiers and aircrew.

The Taoiseach has the bank holiday weekend to consider this situation and to ponder the unprecedented and highly publicised criticisms, by retired senior officers such as Commandant Cathal Berry, of the indefensible neglect and decline of the Defence Forces by his government.

I think he should ponder the ethical question – how do leaders discern between what is truly right and just and what is unethical and intrinsically wrong. 

He should do the right thing and increase the pay and allowances of all Defence Forces personnel to the point where they are earning at least a living wage. 

As organised crime intensifies, with rising levels of homicide by firearm, along with the possibility of a resurgence in dissident terrorism as we approach Brexit – Ireland is facing a perfect storm with regard to security and defence. 

Taoiseach Varadkar could do himself, his government and the people of Ireland an immense service by exceeding the recommendations of the Public Service Pay Commission and making a real investment in our one of our oldest, most loyal and ethical of institutions.     

Dr Tom Clonan is a former Captain in the Irish armed forces. He is a security analyst and academic, lecturing in the School of Media in DIT.

You can follow him on Twitter here.     

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    Mute Ben Moylan
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    Jun 1st 2019, 7:52 AM

    The public might have more sympathy with the defence forces grievances if the journal would publish their starting salaries and allowances..

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    Mute Paul Whelan
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    Jun 1st 2019, 8:30 AM
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    Mute Paddy Reid
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    Jun 1st 2019, 8:31 AM

    @Ben Moylan: it’s public record. You can check yourself.

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    Mute Vocal Outrage
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:43 AM

    @Ben Moylan: Ben, I’m assuming you have access to Google as you are commenting on an internet news site, simply type ‘what is the salary of an Irish soldier’ into Google. The first 6 links given are all different sites directly answering your query.
    So please, stop trying to imply some sort of conspiracy or half truth, and stop being so lazy, Irish soldiers deserve more than that for the security they provide

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    Mute Cal Mooney
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:17 AM

    @Vocal Outrage: The author of this specifc article is 100 percent right. We should pay our defense forces a wage that would see them stay in the services. But he has almost zero credibility, as he was suggesting a couple of months ago that we should prioritize spending on fighter jets and joining NATO or PESCO. I wish he would state what he thinks is more important.. spending tax payers money to keep the members we have in the defense forces or paying 100s of millions, even billions to join NATO or a NATO aligned union that starts new wars every 2 to 3 years. I know where my priorities would be.

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    Mute Vocal Outrage
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:03 AM

    @Cal Mooney: he didnt suggest joining NATO, which would be unconstitutional so a referendum would have to decide for Ireland to join, so can’t see that happening. Yiu should probably also read up on PESCO rather than believing the hype. Irelands involvement is in training for peacekeeping and its 2nd project maritime situational awareness for security and search and rescue can hardly be considered front line war fighting, or anywhere near. Also unlikely to be billions for Ireland as total budget is €2billion in matches funding for ALL EU states

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    Mute Cal Mooney
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    Jun 1st 2019, 12:01 PM

    @Vocal Outrage: Pretty sure your numbers are wrong. They want a 13 billion euro budget, which would require a massive increase in our current spending and it wouldnt be on soldiers salaries. The PESCO military would take direction from the biggest nations which are NATO members.

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    Mute Mick.
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    Jun 1st 2019, 1:49 PM

    @Cal Mooney: 13 Billion spread over the 24 countries involved and which would be spent by each nation on upgrading their own military.

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    Mute Rob Devine
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    Jun 1st 2019, 4:05 PM

    @Paul Whelan: They look similar to starting salaries for civil servants, which is fine. However not good enough for people who out their lives on the line. Should be same as Gardaí at least.

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    Mute Pat Mullin
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    Jun 1st 2019, 5:20 PM

    @Ben Moylan: Rubbish! The reason the Defence Forces is so poorly treated is that they have right to strike. .the ultimate weapon and the only one to concentrate the mind of the Government. . Until they get that right they will be unfairly treated by Government.

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    Mute Vin
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    Jun 4th 2019, 5:55 PM

    @Vocal Outrage: but I read news so that events are summarised in one place. Having to go research basic facts on a topic is bad journalism.

    So I’m not sure what your point is.

    Should we just start writing 1 sentence articles and if anyone criticises it, we can just say “you have a computer go google the missing information”

    That defeats the point of the article in the first place.

    Bad troll

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    Mute Jumperoo
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    Jun 1st 2019, 8:00 AM

    A whole article about pay rates in the army, but not even a € symbol anywhere, never mind an actual figure?

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    Mute Vocal Outrage
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:45 AM

    @Jumperoo: if you Google Irish soldier pay rates the first 6 links all directly give pay rates before you get to news type links

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    Mute Skimothy
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:18 AM

    @Vocal Outrage: you’re right but in all fairness an article on pay should mention some sort of figures.

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    Mute Renton Burke
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:05 AM

    @Skimothy: it’s a union style article. You’ll find similar tactics in both teacher and guard payment articles to not have one single monthly paycheck aisle to compare with other workers. Ps: I also think they should merge with gardai, and distribute the salary pool equally – a small hit for one defence force to the benefit of another.

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    Mute Reg
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:11 AM

    There’s a big difference between rates of pay and actual pay when all allowances etc are factored it. It was the same when the Gardai were looking for extra money. Let’s see some ttansparency and real examples.

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    Mute Adolf Galland
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:27 AM

    @Jumperoo: A private gets about 500 euro a week after 10 years service but there may be allowances on top of that. Its laughable, its a disgrace. A chaplain on the other hand gets about 60k a year. Who makes this crazy stuff up.

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    Mute Anthony
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    Jun 1st 2019, 2:19 PM

    @Jumperoo: it’s public knowledge. Try using that digit of yours and Google it

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    Mute Jumperoo
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    Jun 1st 2019, 3:59 PM

    @Anthony: I did. But as has been pointed out above, that doesn’t change the fact that if you’re going to write and/or publish an article on something like this, you should have the most important information in it. It shouldn’t be up to the reader to go searching for that information somewhere else.

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    Mute John Smith
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    Jun 1st 2019, 8:26 AM

    Many countries don’t pay their soldiers a great wage . Lower ranks wages are really average. The difference is they look after them better . They provide housing for no more then a few hundred pounds a month . Free health and dental . They get rail cards and many other benefits . A serving soldiers ID card or veterans card when he leaves the services gets discounts in most of the high street shops and restaurants. The Brits give their service personal a 20 grand interest free loan to pay towards a deposit on their first home . They get priority treatment on the NHS . Why pay 60 grand on recruiting training and equipping a soldier that will be gone in 5 yrs . You could build a house for that on camp for soldiers and their families and rent it to a soldier for 300 euro a month .

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    Mute Shane Barry
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:17 AM

    @John Smith: Soldiers pay is unlivable. Factory workers earn more, why bother going through with the tough training when you can work in a factory with zero training or education and have more money. The army needs to be made more attractive and then it’s more likely to keep recruits long term.

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    Mute Hardly Normal
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:27 AM

    @Shane Barry: why do we even need one? Sending irish men and women off to war zones to keep the peace after our buddies East and West of us armed the people the Irish and smaller nations are contracted to protect.

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    Mute Vocal Outrage
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:56 AM

    @Hardly Normal:At home the Irish military is like the states home insurance policy. In the event of natural disaster, severe weather events, terrorist events it is the military who respond. You dont ever want to use your home insurance, but it’s nice to know that if your home is burgled your insurance will assist in replacing items.
    In some cases you may not even see the security our military provide, but they secure high security prisons, provide convoy escort of criminals to and from court cases, defuse explosives, both civil war and criminal, secure cash escorts to allow for cash in ATMs, provide high level security for state events, save lives at sea, provide air ambulances, acts as diplomats for the state overseas, and ultimately secure our borders.
    That’s why we need a military.

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    Mute Hardly Normal
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:08 AM

    why does an army have to carry prisoners or be human shields for banks money? Why cant the hse could look after an air ambulance. Surely prison guards should be capable of that and leave the banks sort their own security.
    A specialised bomb squad could easily be integrated into the guards.
    I’m in favour of a part time national guard for weather emergencies or what ever.
    I think I’ve just picked apart your reasons for having an army, have I missed any?
    I honestly think the army is a waste of money and we could have similar but better resources if money was diverted else where and the Irish army decommissioned.The guards need a total overhaul as well. How many army members and guards get a full wage and pension for playing a musical instrument in their bands? All I see is wastefulness..

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    Mute Sarah Walshe
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:16 AM

    @Hardly Normal: all the public services you mentioned above have employees who have the right to strike. Imagine if striked who would fill their place. That’s why as a nation we need a last line of defence. That’s why they are our insurance. That’s why we are attractive to big corporations. That’s how we borrow money from other countries.

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    Mute Bo bo
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:19 AM

    @Hardly Normal: So if I get this right, you would like to privatise all the services you mentioned? What an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE idea. You do know how privatisation ends up don’t you. It ends up costing you, me and the public more in the long run.

    The private companies can strike, withhold services and hike up the price at will. How much do you think it costs to do air ambulance missions, bomb disposal or fishery patrols for example?
    Your understanding of aid to the Civil Power is not what it should be unfortunately.
    Like it or not, the Defence Forces will provide all the services you mentioned, retain the infrastructure, equipment and knowledge for the betterment of the Nation rather than watching the bottom line and waltzing off into the sunset when conditions don’t appeal anymore.

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    Mute Mick.
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:26 AM

    @Hardly Normal: The reason that Prison Officers require Armed Escorts from the Gardai and Army is because they themselves are an “Unarmed” Service. As such while transporting Supected and Convicted Terrorists and Gang Associated Criminals to and from Court or Hospital who would be capable of organising armed assistance to escape it is necessary to have an Armed Escort. As for Banks you you be in favour of Private Security companies having Armed Security Officers? Because transporting large amounts of cash would be very tempting targets for those I mentioned above. And unless you wish that the entire Garda Force is armed they too require Army assistance while carrying out Anti Terrorist operations as there are not enough Armed Gardai to go around.

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    Mute Hardly Normal
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:31 AM

    @Sarah Walshe: where did I say any of that?

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    Mute Hardly Normal
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:32 AM

    @Hardly Normal: sorry meant for bobo

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    Mute Fred Conlan
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:56 AM

    @John Smith: What Utter rubbish! Have you served in the Irish Army?

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    Mute Hardly Normal
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    Jun 1st 2019, 1:46 PM

    @Fred Conlan: na he was in the British army I think.

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    Mute james foley
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    Aug 20th 2019, 7:56 AM

    @Vocal Outrage: very expensive to be called on once every ten years for bad weather. Complete waste of money. Should be sent on additional guards

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    Mute Shane Oneill
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:42 AM

    as a former member of defense forces 18 years since I left the situation has not improved regarding pay only seems to have get worse the defense force moulded me into a man at 17th and gave me life skills that I still use to this day ,i am deeply saddened when i read the article above ,sad times indeed and as a nation we should be ashamed

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    Mute Paul
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    Jun 1st 2019, 8:11 AM

    The Irish Defence Forces does not have the technology, equipment or personnel to defend its borders.

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    Mute Peter Hughes
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:07 AM

    @Paul: Probably one of the only armies in the world were is just about impossible to get injured or killed. If there was a chance of either of these then yes pay them more, otherwise its just a keep fit job and sitting manning some check point with the UN lets be honest here.

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    Mute Patrick Agnew
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:24 AM

    @Peter Hughes: you obviously never served

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    Mute Mick.
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:53 AM

    @Peter Hughes: To date 86 Irish Military Personnel have been killed on active duty abroad and that is not including those wounded. The main reason that that number is not substantially higher is down to the professionalism and training of those tasked with those duties. Irish Troops are renowned across the world’s military, as being the best at Peace Keeping duties in conflict zones. Even to the point that the Irish Military train other countries troops in the role.

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    Mute Jesus Christ
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:17 AM

    @Paul: this is why we need a European army

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    Mute Rob67
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    Jun 1st 2019, 1:41 PM

    @Peter Hughes: I would dare you to stand in front of my deceased colleagues’ families and say that. Despicable comment from another keyboard warrior.

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    Mute CG
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    Jun 1st 2019, 2:13 PM

    @Peter Hughes: Okay Peter let’s be honest. Yesterday marked the 20th anniversary of a guy called Pte Billy kedian. Pte kedian was killed by isreali motor rounds that pounded an Irish UN post close to the leb/isr border.
    So the fact that you make such a disrespectful statement, only leads to one conclusion here. You share the ignorance of the Dept of Defence of which I’m sure are blissfully unaware of Pte kedians anniversary.
    RIP Pte Billy kedian.

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    Mute Rudy de Groot
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    Jun 1st 2019, 8:43 PM

    @Peter Hughes: tell that to the widows and families of defence personnel that have died whilst on service. Your disrespectful comment is beyond belief!

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    Mute Vin
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    Jun 4th 2019, 5:59 PM

    @Mick.: 2 less than the total number of Garda then

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    Mute Adrian
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    Jun 1st 2019, 8:36 AM

    Must be awkward when minister kehoe is attending ceremonies and then the defence force people say he’s out of his depth and incompetent. But then i’m sure he gets great comfort at the end of each month when he gets his exorbitant political money, which could be 10 times what the defence forces people get.

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    Mute Adolf Galland
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:29 AM

    @Adrian: 10 times isn’t too far off the mark. Army ranger wing need to start taking some of these fools out.

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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:39 AM

    @Adolf Galland: it’s OK ACCAS & other groups have already launched Kehoes de-election campaign. He’ll not be looking forward to Leo’s “legitimacy” ambitions with a GE.

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    Mute Dorothy
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:10 AM

    They have systematically downgraded the military for decades. There is now no dedicated Department of Defence or Minister but The Taoiseach is nominal minister.

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    Mute Hardly Normal
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:21 AM

    @Dorothy: what are we defending against? The navy is grand, stops the illegal fishing and the odd drugs bust. I hate the fact they’ve to go to the mediterranian, fishing people out. The army are only ever mobilised when there’s a bit of bad weather. Wouldn’t a part time national guard be a better option?

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    Mute Aindriú Mac Giolla Eoin
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:26 AM

    @Hardly Normal: Banana Republic

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    Mute Patrick Swan
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:41 AM

    @Hardly Normal: without a functioning army, the state is open to being taken over by a handful of guys with assault rifles. Who would stop them, the Guards? A republic needs to capable of defending itself. The precise application of industrial scale violence requires training and expertise that cannot be whistled up only when threats present themselves. Nobody likes paying for car insurance, but we understand it is a prudent and necessary precaution. The defence forces are insurance for the continuance of our democratic way of life.

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:58 AM

    @Hardly Normal: you lack real knowledge of how often our military is deployed.

    Cash escorts, prisoner escorts, portlaoise prison, daily security, bomb disposal, fishing and drug enforcement and then there was the many many years, a border to try and control. Now they do un duty and they do it well.

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:59 AM

    @Patrick Swan: a few lads will assault rifles are stopped by Gardai as it is.

    Google will help you with the evidence but they haven’t gone away you know

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:05 AM

    @James Stephens: dail not daily

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    Mute Hardly Normal
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:21 AM

    @James Stephens: couldn’t the banks provide their own security, prison guards could guard their own prisons and prisoners. The navy look after the waters, drugs and fishing. I can’t remember ever hearing the army involved in a drugs bust.
    UN duty is a joke, the biggest members arm and train ‘rebels’ and then we pay for the privilege to go over and protect these people from themselves. I don’t understand how people can’t see how fu©ked up it is. We need a national guard, not an army. Sending our kids over to protect other countries interests that we have nothing to do with.

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    Mute Mick.
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:05 AM

    @Hardly Normal: As I explained above The Irish Prison Service is an “Unarmed” Service that would have to change. You would have to allow Armed Private Security Companies to transport Cash currently escorted by the Gardai and Army, thus giving them the legal authority to use “Lethal Force”. And UN duty actively and positively promotes Irelands reputation around the world. And I am sure you know about the Army assisting Gardai in Anti Terrorist Operations around the country.

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    Mute Vocal Outrage
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:09 AM

    @Hardly Normal: unfortunately it is your approach that is the very reason why the government get away with treating our military so bad. Your not commenting on the problem, you are the problem. I hope you sleep well at night knowing thst your attitude results in men and women who are literally prepared to lay down their lives for your protection have to survive on family income supplements

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    Jun 1st 2019, 1:50 PM

    @Vocal Outrage: protecting me from what? I sleep very well at night because we live in a civilised part of the world and we have no resources the usa, Russia China or anyone else wants. Its a waste of money the way it is.

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 1st 2019, 2:52 PM

    @Hardly Normal: so your suggestion is to disband the military and instead

    A, arm the Gardai
    B, seem the prison service
    C, allow private security to become armed
    D, train and create s bomb squad in the Gardai
    E, create a reserve force of 9000 minimum and have them on active duty

    Wow, you should run for election with that logic!

    Oh and just because your ignorant of what does on daily within the states security services, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. This island had one of the largest terrorist groups for almost 100 years and is an island between South America and Europe.

    Just confirms what I suspected, we actually have better than we deserve

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    Mute SteoG
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    Jun 1st 2019, 3:45 PM

    @Hardly Normal: Defence, look up what it actually entails in regards to a nation. What is a national guard? Something you made up to sound clever. Well you certainly have shown that you have not got a clue. According to you UN duty is a joke. Are you for real? How would you know? Give me an actual example and explain what you mean. You can find many examples of successful UN missions.

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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:20 AM

    Great article Tom.

    DF personnel have always been treated by the state as second class citizens.

    Prisoners have better accommodation than most soldiers in barracks.

    With current pay rates soldiers, especially soldiers with a family, simply cannot afford to serve.

    As others have commented the DF are Ireland’s insurance policy but Leo is sitting back and letting the DF fall apart.

    Think it’s a class thing for Leo.

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    Mute Brian Curran
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:29 AM

    You don’t know what happened after the first 24/7 Alliance public meeting which I attended with several other PDFORRA regional reps and the President and General Secretary of the Association. The next day the Defence Forces management paraded the leadership of PDFORRA and told them that by taking part in the 24/7 Alliance they would be in breach of the specific Defence Forces regulations regarding political activism. To continue to do so would lead to the disbanding of our association, and they would be charged and possibly Court Martialed . This is a perfect example of how the Dept of Defence can keep the voices of the serving members quite, and thereby ignore any complaints raised by Vetrans or WPDF.

    There have been several questions in the Dail shrugged off by the Muppet Kehoe, by saying nobody told him there is a problem. Easy to say when nobody can speak out about the problems until we retire, at which point it gets ignored as the ramblings of bitter old Veterans.

    Just be glad the largest armed organization in the state is loyal to the people they serve, even in the face of public indifference from an uninformed and uncaring populace.

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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Jun 1st 2019, 12:01 PM

    @Brian Curran: Well said. The keyboard warriors on here haven’t a clue. Military Law means do what you are told or else. Having no voice is why the AC scandal happened too. No civvy organisation with full representation & the right to strike would put up with such conditions…good enough for soldiers eh?

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 5th 2019, 12:12 PM

    @Chemical Brothers: Gardai have the same limitations.

    Eu courts have found it to be illegal. Pdforra could and should take an action but have chosen not to.

    And by the way, gra reps have been arrested for their activities.

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    Mute Ben Coughlan
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:45 AM

    Those pay rates are absolutely shocking, you’d need to be a captain just to afford a two-up two-down..

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    Mute Sarah Walshe
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:10 AM

    Our economy’s growth is heavily dependent on corporation tax. We downgrade our Defence we loose our insurance. Every cent this country has borrowed is on the back if our defence system. We can’t downgrade or get rid. If we did say goodbye to most international companies here. No more borrowing money. Heck say good bye to having fishfingers for your tea, no naval or air corps no fish in our waters.

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    Mute Irish big fellow
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:31 AM

    Reduce the size of Defence Forces by 20%. They would not be missed. Then grant the remaining soldiers an increase of pay based on the savings made. This is what is called productivity and this solves the low pay problem.

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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:58 AM

    @Irish big fellow: They already did the reduction in numbers doubling the workload of remaining personnel. Pay increase never happened as barrack were sold off for tens of millions. DoD are handing back unspent €20 million from DF budget per annum to the exchequer as the service disintegrates.

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    Mute Rob67
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    Jun 1st 2019, 1:45 PM

    @Irish big fellow: operations management is obviously not your strong point. Stick to accountancy.

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    Mute John Simons
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    Jun 1st 2019, 11:45 AM

    Just join the British army if you want better pay and conditions. Simples.

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    Mute Squiddley Diddley
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    Jun 1st 2019, 12:03 PM

    He talks at the start about a crisis regarding ethics and morality in the governance of the country and says there is one organisation that can stand over it’s record: The Irish Defence Forces. But is he not the same Tom Clonan that featured in a major whistleblowing scandal in the army relating to bullying of female recruits and the subsequent shafting of the whistleblower (himself) by senior officers? Short memory Tom?
    His story is featured here in a great RTE series https://player.fm/series/rte-whistleblowers/whistleblowers-2nd-september-2007
    (Other episodes include Frank Serpico, Colin Wallace, Daniel Ellsberg, etc. Good series.)

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:03 AM

    While I agree they deserve better pay, they can only look at themselves and in particular pdfora as the reason why they get shafted.

    Under the 24/7 alliance all emergency staff would stand as one during pay talks. The army then left without any warning and effectively sided with the government by stating they would not strike and if ordered, would man prisons, Garda stations and fire trucks.

    This was a backstabbing by the military on their supposed allies. So, not only is it on their own hands that they fund themselves here but it also proves that towing the party line only gets you shafted.

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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:25 AM

    @James Stephens: You obviously don’t understand that military personnel are subject to military law 24/7.

    It is illegal for serving personnel to strike and any serving member who attempted organise same would find themselves locked up immediately.

    PDFORRA & RACO have little power by design.

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    Mute Patrick Agnew
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    Jun 1st 2019, 10:26 AM

    @James Stephens: what a load of nonsense. They BY LAW aren’t allowed to strike and must obey the elected government of the state

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 1st 2019, 2:56 PM

    @Patrick Agnew: by law brother do the Gardai.

    That’s why we have courts outside of Ireland which can make the government actually respect the constitutional rights of police and soldiers.

    If you don’t want to be treated like a slave, don’t act like one. Sorry but that’s the reality, you left 24/7 alliance and burnt the bridges. Now your out on your own as the other parties won’t include you in negotiations anymore. And pdfora have more power than the gra but manage to make them look good somehow.

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    Mute Sega Yolo
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    Jun 1st 2019, 3:47 PM

    @James Stephens: James you obviously do not know what your talking about. The Defence Act separates soldiers from civil law, they only have such access as is granted by the State. These are allowed so normal living is maintained and can be pulled at any time, (State of emergency, blue alert etc) or even not granted at all (e.g. Working time directive).
    Members understand this and accept this provision. The state , especially in the dept of finance, understands this and abuse it.
    Something like the 24/7 alliance could never be an option for any army anywhere, there is no right of association, and can never be, (other than what is granted and is removable). So, no council, committee, party or cooperative arrangement can have any sway over a nations military.

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 5th 2019, 12:17 PM

    @Sega Yolo: again, I understand the law perfectly well and I understand it’s place.

    The Constitution and eu can and does overrule national law.

    I suggest you educate yourself, the working time act does now apply to the military, thanks to the eu. Had dinner for about 4 years now. There’s exemptions of course as there needs to be but the main aspects apply.

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    Mute Teresa Ryan
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    Jun 1st 2019, 2:31 PM

    What do people expect when the Taoiseach and some ministers wear the poppy in the Dail to commemorate members serving in a foreign army today.

    That’s where their priorities lie, supporting a foreign army.

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    Mute Kyriakos I. Kourousis, PhD
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    Jun 1st 2019, 1:12 PM

    Good article. Any reference for that? “Internationally, the maximum acceptable turnover rate for the military is 5%.”

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    Mute Sega Yolo
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    Jun 1st 2019, 3:52 PM

    @Kyriakos I. Kourousis, PhD: he is your reference doctor curious.

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    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
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    Jun 1st 2019, 2:21 PM

    Óglaigh na hÉireann. The least you could do, Tom, is get the name right.

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    Mute Aging Lothario
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:06 PM

    Not that it will ever happen, but I also happen to agree with the assertion of why do we need an army. If we were ever invaded, we would need the Brits to come and bail us out.

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    Mute Kyriakos I. Kourousis, PhD
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    Jun 1st 2019, 3:22 PM

    ‪Also: 1) how did you calculate the annual discharge rate? 2) What is the average age of the Irish defence personnel? 3) What is the educational profile of discharged staff? My point is that the specifics have to be examined.‬

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    Mute Sega Yolo
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    Jun 1st 2019, 3:58 PM

    @Kyriakos I. Kourousis, PhD: not in a short article like this, it’s only a flavor article, maybe check for those UL studies 2015&17 he mentioned.

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    Mute Kyriakos I. Kourousis, PhD
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    Jun 1st 2019, 4:19 PM

    @Sega Yolo: I have read the UL studies. The article could benefit from having some more details or at least include references & direct links to the studies. Not easy to find them.

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    Mute Peter Farrelly
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    Jun 1st 2019, 6:40 PM

    The army members get a pension after 20 years service,free training, free education for officers but what do the 9000 do everyday
    Some few hundred go on holidays to Lebanon and bring home cheap cars
    Their advocates are PDFORA , they want Td’s and the media
    Nobody forces them to join the army but their is battle royal every year to get into the cadets
    They are like all public servants well looked after!
    Peter

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    Mute Mark O'Sullivan
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    Jun 2nd 2019, 12:39 PM

    @Kyriakos I. Kourousis, PhD: Unfortunately Mr Clunan Dr in his profession personally knows too well from military time it is professional suicide to do hard hitting figure based factual articles.
    Media in Ireland look for soft human element as told not facts and figures not much allowed plus brings too much hassle and pressure.
    As Sgt rtd Mr Maurice McCabe, Mr Sugerman, Mr Clunan know too well hard hitting truthful facts in Ireland go down very badly actually leads to stopping of telling any truth in reality plus personal attacks on own integrity for telling the truth NO matter how much can factually back it up.

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 5th 2019, 12:14 PM

    @Peter Farrelly: so join

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    Mute Declan Martin Rigney
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    Jun 4th 2019, 10:23 PM

    My buddies son is a sharp shooter and he’s on good money but he’s constantly electing himself for tasks and missions or whatever. He loves it. But on the other hand I know another guy who’s on small money but he does f all and he’s home at two everyday. He’s even said he’s bored up there. I don’t care about they’re wages to be honest. Public sector haven’t a clue. I’ve be on the tools since I left school and struggle to bring home €1k a week before tax and costs of running a business then I find out a county council labourer job today is offering €550 a week to be paid from the neck down. Boils my pee but I just get on with. This is my career. I knew what I was getting into when I started

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    Mute Sarah Walshe
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    Jun 1st 2019, 9:35 PM

    Tell that to the 89 families who lost their loved ones while serving on UN missions.
    What a stupid statement.

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    Mute Daithi De Roiste
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    Jun 2nd 2019, 1:59 AM

    Pay is crap, plenty of jobs out there but yet more & more still join the defence gorces and then whinge about the pay! Wouldn’t you think they would be smart enough to look at this before they signed up!

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    Mute James Stephens
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    Jun 5th 2019, 12:14 PM

    @Daithi De Roiste: I’m sure you weren’t expecting the public sector to share your pain during the recession

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    Mute Peter Connolly
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    Jun 2nd 2019, 12:54 AM

    I served for 35 Years and retired in 2016. This is a country full of hand wringers with a distain for anything military. We just voted in a Euro sceptic Luke Ming on the basis that he can role a good spliff and he didn’t want the EU have the capacity to defend itself, oh ye and also we should dig up air bogs.

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    Mute Frank Koek
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    Jun 5th 2019, 9:04 PM

    Scandalous situation, hence the percentage of personnel leaving. If you want to hang on to your well trained staff, you look after them better. Simple!
    The current economic boom added to low pay and lack of respect for the military staff will make the exodus only worse.

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    Mute Declan Martin Rigney
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    Jun 4th 2019, 10:23 PM

    My buddies son is a sharp shooter and he’s on good money but he’s constantly electing himself for tasks and missions or whatever. He loves it. But on the other hand I know another guy who’s on small money but he does f all and he’s home at two everyday. He’s even said he’s bored up there. I don’t care about they’re wages to be honest. Public sector haven’t a clue. I’ve be on the tools since I left school and struggle to bring home €1k a week before tax and costs of running a business then I find out a county council labourer job today is offering €550 a week to be paid from the neck down. Boils my piss but I just get on with. This is my career. I knew what I was getting into when I started

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    Mute Mark O'Sullivan
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    Jun 2nd 2019, 12:03 PM

    All of this is absolutely true though the hierarchy’s lack of morale courage is absolutely apparent as Comdt Dr Cathal Berry out tell the truth then doesn’t sit with RACO reps at Committee in case they ask him questions that show the disconnection of reality on ground and military & Civil Offices in DOD Newbridge. Where Dr’s are told give out Lariam only for missions in malaria countries as mission comes first not health of soldiers Col Kerr’s own directional after Defence Forces Dr’s about Lariam only policy as Lariam now unlicensed here leaves Dr’s personally responsible for prescribing. Where questions were not asked about Medical care of Soldiers at all ??? Where is RACO’s stance on Lariam Only Policy as per DMC Instructions for each mission. Are Officers given a choice of medication or not since end of 2005 while other ranks are not ??? I know at least three men sitting in that room know the answers. Yet shamefully the Foreign Affairs, Trade and Defence Committee stands amongst World’s Democracies has not publicly asked these questions nor has Ireland equivalent to a Surgeon General and his Senior had to answer these questions. Nothing has changed in most Senior staff attestation of reality since former Capt Clunans time from officers and other on ground plus Civil Servants even more out of touch reality. Shameful amongst World’s media while saying fighting for or baring full truth for Defence Forces
    survival it desperately needs bourne out for good of state and Defence Forces. State Institutions, Politicians and media have not learnt from historical avoidance of truths and dealing with upfront properly. Ireland can never move on past as keep avoiding truths and commiting inconceivable crimes against own most loyal not have honesty or morale courage to admit failures is doomed to self-destruction. This is poor avoidance of asking searching questions for real answers allows allows in sundry to say ‘we respect Soldiers for week or two’ then nothing done everyone back in normal jobs few weeks nothing substantial done except well choreographed media run of platitudes and ‘tut,tuts’. Look around the world ask why are we not asking questions.

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    Mute Declan Martin Rigney
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    Jun 4th 2019, 10:23 PM

    My buddies son is a sharp shooter and he’s on good money but he’s constantly electing himself for tasks and missions or whatever. He loves it. But on the other hand I know another guy who’s on small money but he does feck all and he’s home at two everyday. He’s even said he’s bored up there. I don’t care about they’re wages to be honest. Public sector haven’t a clue. I’ve be on the tools since I left school and struggle to bring home €1k a week before tax and costs of running a business then I find out a county council labourer job today is offering €550 a week to be paid from the neck down. Boils my piss but I just get on with. This is my career. I knew what I was getting into when I started

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