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LAST SATURDAY NIGHT, Cork city was heaving to the sound of jazz and blues emanating from its every pore.
The drink was flowing and everyone was in great form. Walking home, the carnage seemed a bit more intense than usual – but it was the Jazz weekend, a bank holiday, what else would you expect?
Still, I was surprised – walking down a certain side street in Cork – to see a young woman running hell-for-leather barefoot down the street.
She was clearly upset; I could hear her crying loudly and I pointed her out to my other half saying, ‘What is it with this laneway?’
Because it was on the same street a few weeks previously that we had encountered another disturbing situation involving a young woman in a vulnerable state.
Again, we were walking home at about 2am along said side street, not a dark street and one that is well populated at that hour with the clubs and pubs spilling out onto it.
As we passed a couple kissing on the other side of the road, I heard the woman saying repeatedly to the guy, ‘Stop, get off me.’
As we got closer, I could see she was trying to push the guy, who wasn’t listening to her, away.
People were walking by, but no one was doing anything. I stopped and shouted over to her: “Are you OK?”
She clearly wasn’t and so we went over to her, and helped entangle her from the guy who was aggressively trying to pin her against the wall.
The woman, probably in her early-to-mid 20s, asked if she could walk with us. As it happened, she was staying in a hotel right beside our apartment. As we walked, she told us that she had met the guy in a club and they had started kissing. She thought it was just a bit of fun. He was clearly expecting more from their encounter, hence what we witnessed on the street.
This woman not very drunk but she was quite shaken. When we finally got to her hotel, she hugged me tightly and thanked us profusely for stepping in.
Fast forward to last Saturday night and the barefoot girl we witnessed running down the street.
As we neared home, I saw two guys pulling a girl down from the wall that separates the footpath from the River Lee. I recognised her as the barefoot girl. Her stilettos and a tiny handbag were thrown on the street, and she was trying to throw herself into the river.
Long story short, despite her best efforts to jump that wall, we made it clear it wasn’t going to happen.
The two young guys left and like the previous encounter, my other half and I said we’d walk the girl home. Again she was in her early 20s.
She was extremely upset, crying, cursing, lashing out, saying repeatedly, ‘No one believes me, no one believes me.’ I told her I believed her, to which her response was, ‘You don’t even know me, how could you believe me?’
I won’t go into her story too much, but in short, she said she’d been raped a few months previously. Not a clear-cut situation by any stretch but it was how she felt afterwards.
That night, she’d told someone important to her, but that person did not believe her.
She explained a situation that some people might view as rape, while others might not.
Like so many cases these days, hers is not one that can ever be proved one way or the other.
And therein lies the difficulty for young women trying to verbalise and understand something they don’t even really understand themselves.
The problem is that rape today does not fit what we normally think of when we think about a sexual assault. It’s not a stranger pulling a girl down an alleyway, it’s not someone sneaking into a room at night. Instead it’s often young guys acting aggressively to get what they think is coming to them. When a girl says no, it doesn’t fit with the expectation that society has created for them.
This generation of young people are used to getting what they want when they want. And sex is no different. Guys can access porn in an instant. Everyone can access a hook up through the flick of a wrist on a mobile app.
Young girls are out putting themselves out there like never before. Looking as good as your idols and living up to cultural expectations means wearing fake tan, fake lashes, fake eyebrows. It means taking selfies and belfies and putting yourself out there on social media in provocative ways.
Add drink and young horny guys into this mix and you’ve got a recipe for modern day rape - situations where saying no does not register, and where feeling violated after a drunken encounter is now a normal part of life.
These might not be considered classic rape cases, but they are classic rape culture cases and the line between yes and no is increasingly blurred not just alcohol, but by immense societal pressure.
Young people today are coming of age in a hyper-sexualised culture that normalises extreme behaviour, makes everyone look sexy and offers instant gratification. How can a girl cry ‘rape’ or ‘stop’ when she’s grown up to be a part of that liberal exhibitionism herself? If she does cry rape, how will anyone believe her when they see her sexy social media profile pictures, and hear that she shared nude pictures with guys?
Not being believed, as I witnessed last weekend, is final insult in situations like this. Of course neither is this generation unique.
Rape and consent are not new issues. Women in Ireland and all around the world have been raped and assaulted behind closed doors since time began.
The difference today is that it’s right front of us. It’s on our streets, it’s on our computer screens, in our hands. It’s visible and it’s pervasive – I’d wager that there are many girls like the two I encountered out and about on our streets on any given night.
This means it’s incumbent on us all to help stamp it out. Whether that’s intervening if you see a dubious situation on the street at night, whether it’s teaching your kids – male and female – about consent and respect, or whether it’s just telling someone you believe them, we all have a part to play.
So, to that girl on Saturday night, I might not know you, but I heard your story, I saw your distress and I believe you.
Jennifer Hough is a Cork-based journalist with a special interest in social affairs. You can find her on Twitter @JenniferHRos
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To say there is a rape culture is disingenuous to the hundreds of thousands of men in this country (actually, millions) who treat other people with respect when it comes to matters of sex and intimacy.
Rape exists. Sexual assault happens. More than it should, I agree. (One rape being one too many). But to say we have a rape culture is false. Have we a gang crime culture too? We hear enough about it on the news but it doesn’t mean it’s a cultural thing.have we a stabbing culture? Plenty of stabbings lately does not mean we have a stab culture.
People then ask ‘why are men so annoyed when the issue of consent is brought up or talking about rape culture?’
Well because when it is talked about, it’s implied that every man needs to be educated on consent and all men are just one drink too many away from being a rapist.
I call BS on that. As a man who respects all people he comes into contact with, I won’t be spoken to as if I’m a potential rapist. And no, before the obvious backlash, I’m not defending rape, sexual assaults or rapists. I’m saying the idea that there is a rape culture in Ireland suggests that rape and sexual assault is as common and accepted as going for a drink on a Friday. Like a drink culture. Something we probably do have.
Well said
@Jay Finn: Here here.
Excellent reposte
As was mentioned in a previous article can we have a Fact Check on whether Ireland has a rape culture?
I can’t see how we have a rape culture when I don’t know anyone who is pro-rape? I don’t doubt for a second there are rapists out there and rape gangs but Ireland has a rape culture, seriously?
These same bleeding hearts cheer on the importation of countless third world barbarians bringing a real rape culture.
Very well said.
I can’t stand this whole “rape culture” cry.
Yes we have a huge problem with men getting away with crap the shouldnt get away with, but it’s not that they need to be taught that they are wrong in order to not foster a culture where they act that way.
More repercussions are called for, this article is a prime example…. The author and her other half came across a sexual assault activily taking place and yet the perpetrator faced ZERO consequences there was a time when guy would have faced sever consequences
We don’t have a rape culture……. We have a “to much tolerance for @$$holes” culture and it is dragging down all facets of society
@Jay Finn: well said, it’s just inflammatory and lazy journalism. Sure it’ll get the hits on the page, but a career-suicide for the writer, as they will have lost all respect from the right thinking male audience and are quite rightly disgusted by rape and being tarred in this article, future articles will be taken with a pinch of salt.
It’s also incredibly annoying when the term ‘rape apologist’ is misused as a cheap slur to shut down any sort of balanced discussion. Take the recent Ched Evans affair – the people who were defending him on Twitter were accused of being ‘rape apologists’. While you could accuse the Twitter trolls of many things – intimidating the girl who had made the accusation, illegally revealing her identity, being all-round d*ckheads, etc – accusing them of being rape apologists was completely inaccurate. They WERE NOT trying to minimise the severity of the accusation or accusing the girl of ‘asking for it’ – they were saying that he was innocent full stop. HUGE difference.
Harry , the girl never made any accusations at all .. the police pushed this case ..
I don’t think there is a rape culture here. I think Louise O Neill has a lot to answer for. After her book, she keeps harping on about it and persuading impressionable girls and women that all men are out to rape them. It’s not good having that view of the world. Most of my experiences of men have been good but I did meet some absolute jerks. And the good guys in my life were quick to point them out to me
Well said Jay Finn
@Jay Finn: My compliments on your excellent reply, we’re not all would be rapists and it’s about time we stood up and challenged this assumption. Most of us have wives and daughters of our own whom we’d want protected, rape and sexual assault occurs, just like any other crimes, but it doesn’t mean every man is a potential rapist.
You may be focusing on the word ‘culture’ and not actually getting the point… By saying we have a drinking culture implies a certain proportion of people have a certain attitude towards drink, not ALL PEOPLE. By you completely shutting this article down based on one word leads me to believe you view the word rape as a the stereotypical forceful act that’s only a man with no morals will carry out. The point is a certain proportion of men in Ireland think they can treat women in a certain way and get away with it, and yes they are getting away with it. It’s fantastic that you treat women with respect and you think others around you do, but you don’t know what goes on when you aren’t looking and your friends are going to tell you their view on an incident. Society both men and women have been conditioned to think this type of behaviour is ‘normal’ or ‘acceptable’ when if you look closely it just isn’t ok. You may think the words ‘rape culture’ is too harsh but you should examine the words beyond it.
@missnessbit I have given the issue quite a lot of thought. Including looking beyond the words themselves. I have talked openly with people who both believe there is and isn’t a rape culture in Ireland.
I stand by my comments above.
I agree. I had a young guy in a night club shove his hand up my dress right into my underwear while I was going to the bathroom. In fright I gave him a wack and it ended with a really nice security guy being supportive and he happened to see the whole thing. However what truly scared me is that his mates ended up telling the bouncer that when he got drunk this is what he did. That when he was sober he would never do something like that. His friends defended him due to being drunk. Which in My opinion is that is rape culture. They could diesengage the fact that he committed a sexual assault to the fact that it was alcohol doing the act not him. Apparently according to them he “normally a nice guy” even though he did this repeatedly while drunk.
I also had an incident where an older man got beside me on a bus and started jerking himself off beside me and I sat there in horror. When I started laughing in pure disbelief he eventually moved (I have no idea why I started laughing, but I did ) and older women said, after he got off “you handled it the right way. Y laughing because sure he is just a dirty old man anyway!”
Most men are amazing and I’ve had men defend me and support me (like the bouncer) but there is an attitude that’s it’s not as bad as women make out. But I’ll tell you I, and many other women, have millions of stories like this. So yes there are many good guys but man of a chat about consent is gonna stop the assaults I’m all for it.
Rape culture is a hilarious phrase to use for this article. One girl is getting kissed, the other is, even by the pro rape culture author, in a big grey area. Ireland has a fearsome problem with alcohol and recreational drugs primarily, guys and girls getting drunk or high to the point of helplessness every weekend. The amount of times you encounter someone ‘legless’ and laugh it off is huge compared to walking in most other countries. Rape culture is not a thing I would remotely class Ireland to have, every guy I know would stop or attack a would be rapist without a second thought, I don’t think I know anyone who would ignore it and say ‘ah sure that’s the way of it’. Culture means an acceptance of it as normality, never would it be considered that.
@Midge Gallagher:
“Going to the bathroom?”
I have never been in a club that has a “bathroom”
Joe , so that’s the part of her comment that you picked up on ?
@Suzie Sunshine:
Well, perhaps it was too subtle. The point was an implication that if a person adopts a silly transatlantic term for the jacks, they are likely to adopt the silly campus misandrist idea of rape culture.
Midge. Well said. And just to remind the MANY good guys out there that women really really appreciate and need your support when they meet the jerks.
I’m half Zimbabwean, half Irish and in Zimbabwe we call it loo or bathroom. Sorry if I said jacks would that have made more sense to you?
Or bog if you prefer.
Sinead I couldn’t agree more. The bouncer was amazing. My boyfriend was so calm, kind and level headed and when I’ve told male friends and family members, pretty much all were kind and a lot made a point of saying that in situation like that they would do or say something . Which is pretty awesome !
@Jay, Spot on! If every man is a potential rapist then every man is a potential thief, alcoholic, drug abuser, violent criminal or murder……. yet the clear majority of men arnt any of these things. The implied suggestion that all men are potential rapists or there is at least a widespread acceptance of sexual assaults or rape in society by men is a disgusting sentiment in itself. On that note I find the idea of mandatory consent classes in third level institutions appalling. You may as well start introducing mandatory classes on violence, alcoholism or drug abuse….
@Midge Gallagher:
It demonstrates the level of willingness to accept a transatlantic mind. The US campus population is rife with SJW speak that is being imported into European society. It highly misandrist and highly anti white in particular. So if someone is white and male they are on a loser straight away.
The myth of rape culture has its genesis in this anti male environment. If a person is susceptible to US language they are probably ripe for taking on the myths such as rape culture that is a mainstay of college US feminism in particular and feminism at large.
The charge of ‘rape culture’ is a lazy accusation because it require no interrogation of reality, just a parroting of a mantra.
@MissNesbit, Drinking culture is an appropriate description of our attitudes towards drink in this country as substantial proportion of the population drink alcohol. It is deeply engrained in our culture, literature, music and so some degree even our sports! We embrace it ( or abuse it ) regularly and to varying degrees by the thousands…. There is no wide spread acceptance of rape or sexual assualt and its not commited frequently by the majority of the population. So no there is no rape culture in Ireland.
Joe .. silly term for the jacks .. I’ve never called it that before in my life and neither do my family or friends .. I don’t believe there is a rape culture here but this girl was only explaining what happened to her ..
@Suzie Sunshine:
Yes, but one anecdote doesn’t make a rape culture, or a thousand.
in discussing or asserting a culture, requires a greater exploration of real life and society’s reaction to the topic of discussion, in this case, rape.
To try to substantiate the idea of ‘rape culture’ by dint of anecdote is irrational.
‘Bathroom’ is a silly transatlantic term? Are you for real pal? I say bathroom a fair bit. I don’t really say jacks. I don’t think it was a very common term in Sligo growing up for some reason. I would say ‘toilet’ more often than not. Is that acceptable to say? I also believe a rape culture exists in Ireland. Maybe it’s cos I call it a ‘toilet’.
@Áine Kav:
And what is the basis for your ‘belief’ that a rape culture exists?
How are rapists treated in Irish society, are they celebrated? Even within the prison population rapists are singled out for certain vilification, often having to be segregated.
In Midge’s anecdote most of the men she came in contact with were supportive, rape culture is made of sterner stuff. There is however, particularly amongst university student a growing SJW culture and a misandrist mindset that does not question feminist assertion. It is much simpler and less effort to parrot an unproven mantra.
And what is “Rape Culture” anyway?
@Jay Finn: The Rape Culture argument is so dangerous, it really is. Yes, Louise O’Neill has some questionable statistics-and her documentary left me with some questions, more so than answers.
For example, why did she not mention the ‘false’ accusations made against the Agricultural society about a facebook/ website page that was claiming to slut shame students-a claim that was found to be so without any evidence as to be an insult to the innocent students involved. And yet no apology was issued. Yet UCD now has ‘consent’ classes that are allegedly mandatory in the college-again, based on a false claim and statement from a student union with a chip on their shoulder.
As for the argument ‘Men view porn, expect sex like in the videos they watch…’ um…no.Making out with a girl and getting nothing else is fine with. Hell, if alcohol has been consumed, that’s as much as most guys will ask for-(others will ask for her number, as in mobile number-or facebook). Porn is a fantasy, we know it to be so, similar to how nobody imagines that putting on a ring will either make them a ringwraith, or make them a Green Lantern (though truth be told, doesn’t stop us imagining being one or the other). But we know it’s fantasy.
And women watch porn too, in roughly the same numbers as men (give or take a percentage here and there). So why is that not being discussed, and why is the blame shifted all onto men when there is an equal number of women watching and looking at pornography? Would admitting women watch porn force individuals to take a harder look at why rape is committed in the first place? That some people are just that messed up to commit such a violation.
I’ve had friends take a girl back to their flat after drinking, and literally sleep on the floor while she slept in their bed. (I was roommates with them at the time). Why? Because they know that to take advantage is not okay (and some of them have sisters, so they are used to being around girls). They have dated those girls, or gone on dates with them, and it’s only when clearly understood that anything happens.
To imply a rape culture is to imply it’s accepted-it is not. No more so than we accept crime, of any kind. I have known men and women who were abused and or raped…nobody blames them. nobody blames a man or woman for getting physically assaulted-nor do we blame them when they are raped.
That girl in question-she should seek help or counselling. Rape, unfortunately, is a diffcult crime to prosecute. If someone robs you of your wallet or phone, that can be traced back to you. There is something physical to hold and say ‘that is mine, they stole it from me’. With rape, the ‘taking’ isn’t something one can so easily hold up in court and say, this was taken from him or her. It’s why the crime is so horrific, it’s so hard to prosecute. But blaming an entire gender for it is not the solution.
I’ve been groped (sexually assaulted) twice by females, once in a pub in Westport and in once in Coppers. Is this evidence of “female rape culture”
Same actually, I had several girls in a hen party grab my crotch through my jeans on 2 separate occasions in 2 different counties, clear evidence that this is widespread and indicative of a cultural event.
Ah lads, come on. You’ll loved it.
Gone Feisin, Get Lost Eircodes.
I think that has probably happened to most men, or a least a good proportion.
You obviously don’t understand Rape culture. Rape culture doesn’t mean pro-rape. It’s the over sexualisation of mainly our youth. It’s not actually knowing no means no. It’s trying to live up to ridiculous imagines of perfect bodies and over sharing. We do have an issue here. Is it a full blown culture? Perhaps not. But really that’s just a phrase. We need an open and frank conversation about sex and consent.
Jennifer Hough is a journalist who’s particular niche is rape and crimes against women, nobody is suggesting that these don’t happen, of course they do, just as they do against men and are a particular vile crime. However to suggest that there is a ‘rape culture’ and all men are under suspicion is taking things too far, but I suspose when there’s a book to sell…
Not knowing that no means no applies to every facet of our lives, not just rape. Even rapists are bound to understand that, but do it anyway.
Joe, if the author saw those 4 events, would she think that a female rape culture was evident? No, she would probably applaud said women for being empowered and going after what they want and being in touch with their sexualities. Do I personally think there is a difference between a ‘sexual assault’ as I described happened to me and the same to a woman, yes I do, is that wrong?
@Alan Currie: Journalism ?
Where ??
#GoldenGob
Just because rapes happen does not mean there is a “culture” of rape.
@Get Lost Eircodes: Totally agree, I have never heard other guys in my life discussing rape as being anything other than the most vile crime possible. If there is a culture of rape I have never seen or heard of it in this country.
Anyone would think there’s some sort of huge masonic Patriarchy club where members raise toasts to convicted rapists, exchange tips on how to beat women without leaving marks, how to spike drinks without being noticed, how to select potential victims… Unless someone can prove that rape is considered socially acceptable in wider society, the premise of thia argument remains complete poppycock.
@Harry Whitehead:
Is that what you think when you hear “rape culture”? I think it is a stupid term for a serious issue and whoever coined in has done harm to what they were trying to say.
What I get from what the article is trying to say, though it really doesn’t convince about anything since it deals with unclear situations, is that there are situations that women find really fearful about where men seem to go too far.
This has so many facets to it its not easy to pinpoint the main issues but one maybe our societies attitude that men must do all the chasing and chatting up,mix that with drink and mixed signals (plus some men, me included, not being an expert on signals) can cause real scary situations for women.
Stephen, that’s EXACTLY what the term ‘rape culture’ implies. Compare it to terms like ‘drinking culture’ in Britain and Ireland, or ‘gun culture’ in the USA, which actually do represent popular (if controversial) ways of life. I agree it’s a stupid term – throwing it about willy-nilly is helping no one.
@Harry Whitehead:
I’m hoping that the author and other people who use the term are using it as a shock factor. They will regularly admit that they know all men dont think this way.
The term really needs to be binned but the story behind it cant be ignored. There are frequent times when guys go too far. And it doesnt always lead to a rape. Over Halloween there was numerous sightings of groping of drunk women in cork city. I think this is what the author is trying to get at?
Evidence of rape culture in this comment section:
Denial of rape prevalence:
“the majority of rape complaints are false” – Eye_c_u
“Sounds made up to me.” – Barry Basstard
“You witnessed two nasty incidents in Cork and suddenly a “rape culture”exists.FFS.Get over yourself” – Kieran C
“There’s been no cases of sexual assault reported over the weekend” – Poole Hyde
Victim blaming:
“Mots do stupid things and are then shocked when events don’t proceed as they expected.” – Naberius
“we live in a culture were man haters are allowed to demonise men without having to provide and factual evidence f#&k your feelings” – emily davison
“Kiss a strange guy you never met before and walk away with him alone? There is peronnel responsibility aswell” – Vincent Wallace
Takeaway message:
The woman was to blame for being drunk and leading the man on by wearing sexy clothes and kissing him, she must face the consequence of having sex with him for this despite clearly communicating this wasn’t what she wanted. There is sympathy for the male as he may face a criminal sentence for this despite being tricked and drunk at the time. Although the author is probably lying anyway to further a liberal/feminist agenda.
I see how this works, Anyone who disagrees with deranged feminists is a misogynist
@Rochelle, Using comments from a handful of posters on this article as an evidence base for rape culture in Ireland is like me saying that all Munster fans are tw@ts based on your comments and behaviour on rugby articles. I hope you arent in a position or profession which requires any sort of balanced analytical or logical thought process. I shudder at how that might work out all concerned.
Good post Stephen. Bizarre that you’re getting thumbs down…wtf everybody??
“We live in a culture where man haters are allowed to demonise men without having to provide any factual evidence”
You think that’s “victim blaming”? Who is the victim being blamed? And blamed for what??
One incident is not a culture. As a man I am sick of hearing a rape culture.
I counted two incidents in that story.
I’m assuming 1 may be true and the 2nd to make a point
Well, as a woman, I’m sick of people like you telling us to stay quiet. This is the society we live in, and people are finally being open about their experiences so that we can learn and grow and try to make the world a nicer place. You don’t like it, well tough.
People like me you don’t no me . If I see a women in trouble I step in and have done on a number of occasions over the last 25 years .
Kate, who here has told you to “be quiet”??
No-one is telling you to stay quiet, just that “rape culture” doesn’t exist
But bmul has stepped in on a number of occasions over a quarter of a century, does that not tell you that it’s a higher frequency and for a longer period than you think?
Kate. . The society we live in is not rape culture. . Nobody is telling anybody to keep quiet. . They just disagree that it’s a rape culture.
4/5 times over 25 years I have stepped in when I though a women was in trouble on 2 occasions the women turned on me but I would still do it again
Cool story bro.
I think it is important to talk about this and to constantly remind everyone that consent is absolutely required before intimacy.
@bmul: Fair play to you but that in no way means this story is atypical or made up. It’s all very very familiar. There won’t be many women reading it who can’t relate.
Any chance you want to name this street in Cork so the rest of us can avoid it?
Why aren’t the Gardaí on the streets at this hour? So obviously needed.
Rape is far more prevalent and tilerated in Muslim cultures but the liberals never complain about that.
You’d bring Muslims into an article about kangaroos,get help for your obsession,if you don’t like Muslims then don’t become one.
What?! Yeah they do, for at least 30 years now (the 30 I’ve been paying attention anyway). where the hell are you people getting your ‘info’ on ‘liberals’?! They also complain about it in other cultures that I’ve personally heard/seen (like india and what not). It was complained about that, in fact, they weren’t complaining about it in our cultures enough at one point. People lol. PS rape is the most heinous crime, imo worse than murder. Cant see any justification for rape, ever.
Suprised you haven’t brought Catholics into this one yet Tariq seeing as that’s your schtick..
Well you just did canuckandgo,dead right they’re my schtick,after they brutalised babies,children and women for generations in this country,I don’t know how you can defend them,says a lot about your mentality to be honest.
I don’t defend them tariq, I treat all religions and religious people with the ridicule that befits their daft notions. You just seem to target Catholics…
Yeah,because like I said they’re the ones who destroyed Irish people’s lives,not any other religion. Bit slow aren’t we?
As a Muslim his goal is to undermine the dominant religion in the state.
I’m not a Muslim you tool,I’m an atheist.
Petr claims to be an atheist, Tariq forgot to switch accounts!
Don’t worry Liam / Tariq since you abandoned Catholicism and reverted to the religion of peace like your buddy Kelly you now have permission from your preacher to beat herself and of course she can’t say no to a cuddle , God I can see how attractive medievalism is to a small minded little man
You might find that British protestants had a negative impact on Irish people’s lives too…bit slow are we…
True Suzie, well spotted.
@Eddie Simon:
yay another fake account. Can’t seem to understand that muslims have been living in Ireland for decades without hassle.
Cant seem to understand that there is muslims being freed from isis rule as we speak and immediately shaving since they cant stand that they were forced to grow them under the sc um’s rule.
and what is a “liberal”? looking at american politics too much? are you a “conservative” so?
So you set up an account to pretend to be a Muslim online, some athiest you are. Totally bizarre behaviour.
Don’t hurt your little brain thinking too hard about it Eddie.
Oh dear,poor Suzie! You do know there is more than one atheist in Ireland don’t you? Painful how I have to educate far-right trolls on this site.
@Suzie Your idiocy knows no bounds.
Tariq. .. lol you’re not kidding anyone. Tariq / Petr is the same account and oh look! I see Petr has just commented …..
Cool tariq/petr, look forward to your unbiased comments regarding other daft religions in the future. Have a great evening.
Suzie Sunshine is actually Liam Egan, an Islamist living in Wexford.
That is true Petr,Mark Humphreys has done some excellent research on the real life Suzie Sunshine,an Islamist convert who spent time in Saudi Arabia. Read about Suzie here http://markhumphrys.com/liam.egan.html
Tariq and Petr saying the same things .. one person..one account .you slipped up again .
@Tariq, Ireland could do with a lot more athiests in this country. Would be nice to cast off the shackles of blind faith and stimulate the critical thinking faculties of the masses!
@Tariq ibn Ziyad: That’s a strange avatar for someone who claims to be an atheist.
Jennifer, I hope that you intervened or at least took a photo of that guy forcing himself on the girl protesting against that guy’s advances. If that girl does file for rape, you will be an important witness. And yes, I have intervened before.
And that’s why I call bulls”it on the entire article. There’s been no cases of sexual assault reported over the weekend in the circumstances given in the article. So, a) either she witnessed it and didn’t report it or b) it’s bulls”it.
@Poole Hyde:
Is every sexual assault reported? if it isnt does it mean it didnt happen?
“There’s been no cases of sexual assault reported over the weekend in the circumstances given in the article”
How do you know?
The author has a wild imagination, she’s not a feminist by any chance ?
How do I know? Because the guards in Cork leak information like a sieve to the likes of the Echo and because I know about a half dozen personally. It would have been the main point of conversation around the city.
@Anne Marie Devlin: I don’t she was raped by the guy that she happened to be with on that night.
#GoldenGob
I don’t doubt the veracity of this account but I wonder were there any Gardai around because from what I see of Cork by night there is no police presence. A rape culture, an assault culture and a dangerously drunk culture is the dark undercurrent of an otherwise fun place to be.
I agree that education and cultural change are the only long term solution. But the Gardai need to step up now because we must have a law and order response in the short run at least.
@Simeon: A cop on Red FM recently was asked as to how many were on duty on a typical Saturday night.He said that there was normally 8-10 gardai, 1 patrol car and one Paddy wagon. For the whole of Cork city centre. There’s probably up to 10,000 people out on a saturday night in the are and there are 10 cops to keep the peace. He did say that they could call on outlying stations to help but that means a response time of about 15 minutes assuming that they aren’t already busy.
One of the problems in this country is the fact that there’s no Gardai on the streets . Major cities and tourist attractions will have a police presence and there’s no hanging around when the clubs close . A Gardai presence would act as some kind of deterrent.
@Brian Ward: The annual Mass in a graveyard near my house took place on Saturday and there were at least four Gardai on duty for a small docile crowd of about 1000 who were there to pray. That shows a weird sense of priorities in the force. A woman being attacked in the city centre at night should have a better chance of having a cop around than someone going to a Mass on a Saturday afternoon.
Sounds made up to me. I mean to think you intervened twice in as many weeks, feminists will make up anything to push their agenda.
We have a problem with lenient Sentences in this country, that does not mean we have a rape culture. Enough of this tripe.
How about we address the telling tales culture by journalists. Every day we are seeing journalists telling tales and having their stories retracted the next day on page 53, in tiny writing. There is definitely a culture of telling tales within journalists
There used to be a time when someone claiming to be a journalist wouldn’t use anecdotal evidence as the basis for a story. Passing this off as journalism, albeit noted as an opinion piece, just goes to show how little the term means anymore.
A rape culture and gender pay gap article on the same day? Shameful SJW nonsense TheJournal.ie, disgraceful pushing these myths.
Perhaps Breitbart would be a site better suited to your world view instead.
So we have to rely on right wing media outlets for the truth? We need to fix the left and rid them of these extreme ideologues.
Rochelle my world view is based on evidence and observing reality, not left or right wing propaganda.
@Critical_Thinker: “Rochelle my world view is based on evidence and observing reality”
It’s funny how you offered absolutely no argument in response to this article in that case. You just had a little moan for yourself.
“A rape culture and gender pay gap article on the same day? Shameful SJW nonsense TheJournal.ie, disgraceful pushing these myths.”
You need to think more critically and the first step on your journey is to stop regurgitating dopey right-wing talking points.
Petr, it’s funny you should mention “regurgitating dopey right-wing talking points”, I could say you should stop regurgitating dopey left-wing talking. The pay gap has been debunked many many times but the lazy idealogues of the left still want to claim it true. As for the rape culture sham, rape is not glorified in western culture and rapists are punished, by the law (admittedly not often or severly enough) and by society – therefore it cannot be claimed to be a “culture”. It’s pathetic that the likes of you paint people who question the veracity of claims like this as moaners or misogynists. Fascism has taken a new form in the SJWs of the left.
“it’s funny you should mention “regurgitating dopey right-wing talking points”, I could say you should stop regurgitating dopey left-wing talking.”
Good retort. About the level I was expecting to be honest.
“Fascism has taken a new form in the SJWs of the left.”
You clearly don’t know what fascism is in that case. You can’t have a left-wing fascist, and fascists are not warriors for social justice, to say the least. This is all really basic stuff. Look, drop the slogans and make an actual point.
@Jennifer:You witnessed two nasty incidents in Cork and suddenly a “rape culture”exists.FFS.Get over yourself. By any chance are you a liberal freaky type who is fond of hugging trees? I’d reckon you have a bit of “anti-man” culture going on in your simple little mind.You innocent fool.
Waffle
Great article. More needs to be written, said and discussed about this wrong ‘culture of expectation’ in the 21st century.
” this wrong ‘culture of expectation’”..
“More needs to be written”
Pffftt.
Kiss a strange guy you never met before and walk away with him alone? There is peronnel responsibility aswell. What did she think he wanted? Go home and watch a DVD is it?
Ah the “she lead him on” defense. Good one.
Vincent .. you might need to review what you’ve said there because walking away with a guy after you’ve met him in a club does not automatically mean sex. ..
Nice bit of victim blaming here Vincent. God, you’re a piece of work.
We need to encourage the behaviour of gentlemen. A gentleman always asks “may i ?” ..before he mounts.
@Vincent Wallace: So lets develop the point a bit, a woman goes out to a bar, wants to have a good time, has a few drinks and kisses some random guy. She then decides to go off for a walk with that guy, maybe to go to another bar, maybe to go get some food, maybe to go have sex with him. At some point she decides that she does not want to have sex with him (assuming she ever did in the first place). Not accepting this, the guy she is with rapes her. Should she take personal responsibility for this?
Why should she take any responsibility for that? Is she not entitled to choose not to have sex with someone, even after kissing them? Even after going for a walk with them. Is she not allowed to give someone the impression that she may want to have sex with them and then later change her mind?
I think she should definatly be allowed to do all of those things and still be allowed to choose not to have sex with the guy, and I don’t think she should take any responsibility at all if the guy then chooses to rape her.
We don’t live in a rape culture, we live in a culture were man haters are allowed to demonise men without having to provide and factual evidence. The media is also perfectly happy to facilitate this with nothing more that a feeling, feelings are not facts, f#&k your feelings.
The “Journalist” who wrote this inflammatory man hating nonsense is clearly just looking for a few more Twitter followers. The confirmation bias is incredible, even though rape rates have been falling for decades, they explain their narrative they speak about a low rate of reporting. If you disagree and use facts you are just part of rape culture. It’s an amazing feat of mental gymnastics
One of the worst, most misinformed and lazy articles I’ve read on here in a very long time . The anti male sentiment in this story is so bias you can’t take the piece seriously. If indeed this account of story is even true , you can imagine the writer already had the headline in mind before even got home that night. Writer is looking for nothing but attention
Why would a man tell this story if it did not happen? Of course he and his wife witnessed something that was wrong, and fair play to him, he has guts and was prepared to help.
Both men and women need to start taking responsibility for the amount of alcohol they consume. I honestly do feel sorry for people when something happens and neither party can remember and next thing there’s a rape allegation, an issue over consent, and it seems the men are forced into taking all the responsibility for what happened and women are not. Drinking to excess blurs these lines and then we are in murky waters. I’m not in any way condoning rape I’m just saying people need to be more mindful when out. Both men and women.
Mots do stupid things and are then shocked when events don’t proceed as they expected.
What?!?
@Laura-Anne: I said mots do stupid things and are then shocked when events don’t proceed as they expected.
No need to repeat, just clarify please.
Are you implying that attempted rape is caused by bad decisions on behalf of the girls involved?
I’m sure attempted rapists can take some of the responsibility, no?
I’m implying nothing.
I’m saying that if you don’t want to get raped by a randomer in a dark alley then don’t get pissed drunk and voluntarily go into a dark alley with a randomer while giving him the impression that it’s sexy time.
I’m saying if you don’t want people looking at photographs of you in the nip then don’t take photos of yourself in the nip and send them to some punter or put them on the internet.
These are a couple of stupid things that mots do routinely.
Rapists are responsible for rape, obviously.
Naberius is just expressing his right to publicly share his misogyny with the world.
There’s nothing misogynistic in pointing out some silly things chicks do!
So it’s the victims fault? Thanks for clearing that up Naberius.
I already said it’s the rapist’s fault, honey!
@Naberius: Well, yeah, of course they are shocked. Any rational decent person would be shocked to be raped. I’m sure you would be. No one in their right mind expects to be brutally violated like that.
Implying that the victim bears some of the responsibility because they ‘do stupid things’ is a shitty thing to go around doing. Nothing justifys rape, nothing.
I flat out stated that the rapist is responsible.
If a drunk mot goes into a dark alley with some randomer then she is doing something stupid. If you’re not happy about that that’s your problem.
Lazy and pathetic journalism. Rape culture implies that rape is a accepted part of our day to day lives. This is not true in this country rapists are jailed and punished. Your headline is a fair representation of your skills as a writer uneducated and ignorant of facts.
This is a great article, and very close to the real situation today. The rape culture is alive and all around us. People who are offended by this claim are more worried about their own image, than the many whose mental and physical health are shattered for the rest of their lives. We live in a very narcissistic society, where morality is so passé.
Paddy , please explain how we have a rape culture .
Go home Paddy, you’re drunk.
@ Suzie Sunshine Well Suzie I taught the article put the situation very well. I have the benefit of been older so I can say the occurrence of rape forty years ago, was a lot less frequent than today. Speaking with a young lady recently she told me that among her six closest personal friends, three of them had experience of rape, or attempted rape. If that is not a culture of rape, head in sand comes to mind. @ canuckandgo I assume you are content with what is described above.
Paddy if you want to find a rape culture look no further than Rotherham England or while you are at it Malmo Sweden
Sounds like a great story Paddy, pity it’s probably nonsense
@canukandgo Denial, is not just a river in Egypt.
Don’t normally agree with you Paddy but you’ve hit the nail on the head there. The people criticising this article must be deflecting for some reason,I shudder to think what their motivation is in down-playing rape. Although I think it may have been under reported in the past. Sad to see the likes of Suzie, Mike Cantwell and canuckandgo down-playing rape of women and burying their heads in the sand.
@ Tariq ibn Ziyad I agree it has always been downplayed, but it appears to be a growing phenomenon.
The comments here certainly reflect that Paddy.
I have never down-played rape. . Get your facts right.
@Paddy Scully: Paddy have a read on Gareth O’Callaghans page about the occurrence of rape 40 years ago and where morality is so “front & centre”
Oh by the way the rapes he is talking about were carried out by 2 x Dublin bishops and many Dublin priests and victims were defenceless children as young as 8. Rape culture indeed, from the heart of your Catholic Church.
@ Get Lost Eircodes Looks like you’ve got issues. The discussion here is about rape in our cities and towns today. Rape occurs in many different situations, all of which are deplorable. I have no doubt that rape occurred forty years ago, the question is why has the occurrence of rape increased so much.
The comments here have shocked me. There IS an issue here in Ireland with consent and sexualisation behaviour. We have a rape culture. Two things in particular stand out to me 1. This does not mean that all men are guilty and 2. Not all women are innocent. Understanding what sexual consent is is a male and a female issue. Stating that one element of society is not being respectful of another’s does not condemn all. Young people (and older) going out need to understand that consent is not implied, a dance, a kiss, an agreement to meet again and any other actions do not support sex once a ‘no’ is uttered by either party.
I think you came on here looking to be shocked and surprise surprise you managed to find something that shocked you. It’s called confirmation bias, although it is very common it is not a positive phenomenon
No. I read the article because I was interested. I work with teenagers and they have recently brought up discussions in class about what they expect from boys and girls. In the comment section I was surprised that so many of the comments assumed that it was an attack on males who do act responsibly, also the comments that say bluntly, or suggest, that many accusations of rape are false surprised me. Any factual studies I have read suggest that many instances of sexual aggression or violence go undetected – I believed this was common knowledge. The surprise I express re the comments section is genuine.
@Sinéad Cronin: I wasn’t shocked at all. I knew the comments would be filled with a load of “#notallmen” whinging.
Daisy considers it “whinging” when people reject collective guilt placed on them for sex crimes committed by other people
Feminists are using every chance they get to demonise men and boys. We are not going to take it lying down. Sorry if that triggers you.
You’re right, I shouldn’t have been surprised at all, depressing really.
So Jennifer, are the two men who helped the girl down from the river wall also part of the ‘rape culture’ and they were only trying to help her down to pound on her???
You’re talking a load of shîte, looking for 15 minutes of fame and attention!! There’s hundreds of thousands of respectable men in this country that respect both sexes and know how to treat all people with respect!
Don’t tar all of us with your femanazi brush!!!
Problem is the majority of rape complaints are false. Not all of course but most are
Its sad to know there are women full of so much hate and spite but I suppose that’s the nature of the paticular model
This does not indicate rape culture, it indicates rape. Rape culture means that it is accepted socially. If someone gets raped/sexually assaulted they should go directly to the gardaí ASAP to make a report. Then their attackers can be brought to account.
Uncomfortable reading and incidents that would chill anyone that experiences or actually talks to anyone that experienced such assaults. These are incidents that can have massive,massive changes on a persons confidence,personality and trust of men.
And these incidents happen every single weekend all over Ireland.
However, to reflexively refer to this as evidence of ‘rape culture’ is badly miscued,imo . For if this is ‘rape culture’ , then what words can you possibly describe the cultural prevalence of purest misogyny ,female subjugation and the intolerance of female consent outside of virgin status that exists in many third world and primarily religious countries?
Where a woman’s value can often be viewed solely on her virginal status and where a rape victim can seen sometimes by large swathes of society as ‘temptress who deserved what she got’ . This can also be seen here in Ireland (even on this thread) but is not remotely a prevailing belief . Though in Ireland of the recent past……
Its actually Ireland’s drinking culture that is at the epicentre of these sexual assaults .Every weekend ,you have drunks urinating,humping and vomiting in city streets ,utterly indifferent to a fundamental civic duty of simple respect.
And every weekend,we as a society tolerate it . Because ‘Aaaah,,we’re Irish – We’re all going to heaven Arent we fkn gas?’
My brother went to OktoberFest a few years ago and thought it was brilliant .Various nationalities mixing , having fun ,eating ,drinking and dancing and no problems.
But as an Irishman,he felt embarresed ,knowing that us Irish could never host such an event because of the anti-social behaviour that would arise.
Which strangely doesn’t happen abroad when an Irishman puts on an Irish soccer shirt…..
Consent classes may have a value as a box-ticking exercise but is meaningless when alcohol,lower inhibitions,mixed messages ,a sexually-tangible atmosphere and the ever -present sexualisation of young people.
Fortunately most people wont experience trauma as those two ladies did (and they were lucky) but until our society starts a meaningful conversation about our relationship with alcohol , then incidents like this will still occur.
Well said John, people obviously don’t like to speak ill of their precious drink and craic while continuing to deny it falls at the epicentre of the vast majority of all assaults, be that domestic, sexual or random acts of violence towards strangers. This culture talk pushed about for the last year or two is nothing more that the bubbling to the surface of what people out of their minds drunk do when inhibitions are lowered. There is no excuse for it, and personally responsibility must be addressed for all involved. Such talk however gets hissed and spat at these days. Self reflection is for everyone else and memes spread by hurting people.
Basically, if your a man, your guilty.
It’s tough being female. Always was and always will be.
Tougher than being male?
Men are more likely to be murdered, more likely to be assaulted, more likely to be imprisoned (in far worse conditions), more likely to be unemployed, more likely to be forced to emigrate to work, more likely to die by suicide, have no parental rights but have equal parental responsibility, have far less access to contraception, more likely to be homeless, less likely to get 3rd level education, more likely by far to die at work, there are no shelters men can attend to escape abuse, boys are criminalised for having consensual sex, women’s health receives vastly more investment, women live longer….
I think the wording as rape is wrong. I believe the issue here is that we have a society that tells us that every normal woman wants and loves it. sex sells and it does, especially in this modern age. the issue is that this generations of girls are made to look or be easy. while the boys are being brought up to be forceful and aggressive. the best example is when a good guy is seen by women as boring, lack of courage, lack of initiative and so on. while the bad boys are celebrated as pure thrills and so on. thus, we have countless of girls accepting bad behaviour from boys and boys encouraged to be aggressive and bad
the wording as rape culture*
The lack of a definition of “consent” is a problem in our legal system./
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