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AS ANNUAL COMMUNION preparation comes to the fore once again in schools around the country, how would you feel about the prospect of your children spending at least half an hour of every school day being treated differently from their peers and being moved to the back of the classroom, or left to sit idle at the back of a church?
Imagine this, and you will feel the sting of discrimination faced by a growing number of families within the Irish education system.
Our schools may be Catholic, but young Irish families, increasingly, are not. Structurally, Ireland’s education system has remained largely unchanged for almost two hundred years.
Over 95% of our national schools remain under denominational control, despite being publicly funded, with around 90% under the control of the Catholic Church.
The school patronage system means that the State pays the bills but cedes control to religious bodies.
Consistent with many other developed nations, Irish society is changing rapidly with respect to religious belief and practice.
This is demonstrated by the 2016 Census from the Central Statistics Office (CSO), and also by the CSO’s annual marriage statistics, which are reproduced here.
We have averaged out the last ten years to project these figures forward to 2030, with striking results.
It is important to note that this is just a projection, not a prediction. Nevertheless, the overall trend is clear. Non-religious marriages are likely to significantly outnumber Catholic marriages by 2030.
What about divestment?
2030 is significant here as it is the year by which the government hopes to have 400 non-religious-run primary schools in place or 12% of Ireland’s total of 3,241 national schools.
This is merely a notional target. Only a handful of new schools are opened each year, and the much-vaunted ‘divestment’ process is a non-event, generating much heat but little action.
At current rates, we will have barely 200 multi-denominational schools by 2030 – contrast this with the 2,776 schools that are run by the Catholic Church.
What the marriage figures demonstrate, however, is that even the government’s optimistic target of 400 schools is inadequate.
In any event, do we really want to segregate our children into different schools on the basis of religion? Religious evangelisation in our classrooms is effectively unavoidable, representing an aberration from the human rights norms that prevail elsewhere in Irish society.
What does the law say?
The Equal Status Act 2000 forbids discrimination in employment and the provision of goods and services under nine grounds, including religion.
The Civil Registration Act 2004 allows marriages to be solemnised at a wide range of approved venues, meaning that couples can now marry in accordance with their conscience in ways that were not possible in the past.
The Education (Admission to Schools) Act 2018 removes religion-based admissions criteria from the vast majority of schools, meaning that parents now enjoy freedom of conscience when deciding whether to baptise their children.
There is a strong legal basis, both under Article 44.2.4 of the Constitution – which expressly provides for “the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school” – and under human rights law, for respecting parents’ freedom of conscience with regard to the evangelisation of their children at school.
Numerous international human rights treaty bodies, including the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, have pointed to Ireland’s failings in this regard.
Current practices in schools render the right to opt-out of unwanted religious indoctrination ineffective, not least because of the integrated religious curriculum, which is imposed on all children.
Opt-out to opt-in
During formal religious instruction periods (usually 30 minutes a day), ‘opted-out’ children are typically moved to the back of the classroom and visibly segregated from their peers while absorbing the instruction regardless.
Existing opt-out practices are wholly unsatisfactory and discourage parents from exercising their human and constitutional rights, due to the stigmatising effect it could have on their children.
Given the long-standing architecture of the Irish education system, to attempt to dispense with denominational patronage altogether would be an extremely slow, costly and legally complex undertaking.
A more pragmatic approach is required. In order to vindicate the rights of all parents and end classroom segregation, the simplest solution is to move religious instruction, including sacramental preparation, to the end of the school day under an ‘opt-in’ system.
Some existing multi-denominational schools already offer optional religious instruction after hours, so it has been proven to work. Religious practice is a choice, not an obligation.
There is an onus on the government to recognise the changes in Irish society and take meaningful action to provide equality of esteem for non-religious families and religious minorities.
Education Equality has launched a petition to provide equal respect for all children at school and make religious faith formation an optional subject, held after core school hours.
The ‘hands-off’ approach taken by successive governments to this issue has been an abject failure.
However, we are lucky enough to live in a democracy, where all power ultimately rests with the people.
The people are changing – our schools must too.
David Graham is a father of two and Communications Officer with Education Equality.
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These classes have no place in school at either level outside of an SPHE/history class. Religious indoctrination, if that’s what you want for your child, should be an extra curricular activity run by the church.
@Graham Manning: Christian education is part of our Culture and should be part of our education, to form ethical and moral teaching.
@Dom Layzell: if that’s what you want, yup fine. Send em to Sunday school or the equivalent. I don’t need sky fairies to teach my children ethics or morals. Do we really need to delve into any religions past on both counts?
@Dom Layzell: ethical and moral teaching does not require religion. Schools for teaching and churches for preaching
Get religious indoctrination out of schools.
@Dom Layzell: Morality is doing what’s right, regardless of what you’re told. Religion is doing what you’re told, regardless of what’s right. If you can’t determine right from wrong you lack empathy, not religion.
@Dom Layzell: most of us can tell right from wrong these days without having to be told fairytales to decide
@Graham Manning: Then spend more time on your own children, rather than getting all vexed about where other parents send their children to school. Mind your own business.
@MaeVic: I’m a teacher and a parent. It is my business.
@Dom Layzell: Christianity actually comes from the middle East, has nothing to do with Ireland.
@Graham Manning:
I’d much prefer my Children to have the basics of Christian morality and ethics, rather than the curriculum of Communism and Socialism that seems to be rampant in our Schools and definitely in our 3rd level institutions.
@Dom Layzell: rubbish, not nowadays
@Dom Layzell: please clear you mind. Culture do not not mean Christian education.
@Gus Sheridan: yes . You Mean and should put in the bin
@Graham Manning: yup fine to you’re opinions too. Do you teach in a School where the Christian ethos is taught?
@Graham Manning: Other parents children are not your business. Other children’s schools are not your business. Being a teacher does not give you special privileges. You are still just a strange man to most children in the country.
@Dom Layzell: if you want your kids to have a Christian education teach them yourself. It is very hard to avoid Christian education in Ireland and that’s the issue. Kids are coming out without reading skills but knowing the our father by rote. It’s ridiculous. I stopped going to church voluntarily at 7 but did my communion and confirmation in school largely because it was expected and also because of the financial incentive (bribing kids essentially). These should happen outside school. If you can’t be bothered to take on your child’s own Christian teaching that you desire why should the rest of us have to see our kids sit through it.
Morality is not religion based, saying as much implies a religious people do not have morals. They do and they don’t seek to be confined by arbitrary passages in a book and indeed many Christians do not believe or follow all elements of the Bible because they know they aren’t okay.
Raise your kids your way and teach them religion in your own time.
@MaeVic: When 90+% of schools in this state are catholic ethos, and a growing demographic of taxpayers who fund them and have children of school-going age are not, it is very much our business. Fables should be taught as mythology, not fact.
@Dom Layzell: they’re not real morals if you’re only doing them to get a cookie from St peter
@The Risen: Other parents children are not your business. And the way to deal with the growing demographic is to provide them with a diversity of schools, to reflect their ethos. It this way there is more “choice”
You are pro choice aren’t you?!
@Graham Manning:
“Sky fairies” who believes in those, what religion? Saying that, do you hope there is no higher power or believe there is no higher power? Some of the greatest minds in human history believed that there is some sort of creator, but then we have you.
@Reg: Keep socialist/communist indoctrination out of schools.
@Dom Layzell: why do religious people always think they have a monopoly on morality. You do not need to indoctrinated children with religious beliefs in order to have people be ethical or moral. A little more respect for the law of the state rather than pretending theres a law from a higher power would go a long way
@Shane Barry: “Christianity actually comes from the middle East, has nothing to do with Ireland.”
While you are correct on the origins of Christianity surely you realise the religion has been established in Ireland for over 1500 years.
To say it has nothing to do with Ireland is just silly.
Ireland and indeed Europe are the way they are largely due to the religion Christianity.
It is part of our heritage whether we like it or not.
@Dom Layzell: yes I do, why?
@Raven: Keep all types of indoctrination out of schools whether religious or political.
@MaeVic: thankfully in our democratic country I’m entitled to an opinion on anything I like Mae. Just as you’re entitled to yours and your regular unchristian like behaviour to those who disagree with you.
@Raven: anyone who’s religious does. I believe in science and reality which shows no evidence of god, gods or any form of afterlife. Most of the minds you cite are long dead and come from a time when science was immeasurably behind where it currently is in every field and where publicly denying the existence of god could have some pretty negative consequences.
@Raven: which communist indoctrination is that then? I’ve class in a while and might wanna pop some of it in the lesson.
@Will: so was paganism before it (and for longer) and we grew, or were dragged outta that.
@Graham Manning: True but not really relevant. Dealing with the here and now we can say that Christianity has been the driving force behind society in Ireland and Europe (not saying this is good or bad, it is what it is).
The traces of paganism in modern society are few and far between and even those that exist have been co-opted by Christianity long ago.
@MaeVic: it particularly in favour of parents choice MaeVic no.
The state cannot carter for every diverse requirement. To the extent that such provision is equitable and event dispersed.
The State can only realistically offer a one size fits all if it is to do so well. Which means religion has no place in public schools.
Private schools can offer religion if they like. And parents can pay.
But it’s long past time that the grotesque hold religion has over education was ended.
@Dom Layzell: you don’t need religion to teach this…
@Graham Manning: Plastic Christians are much to lazy to teach their kids religion at home. That’s the very simple truth of it.
@Dom Layzell: If you need somebody to tell you how to be ethical and moral, then you are neither.
@Raven: Matthew 19:24 “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus was a Socialist. By your own measure, Christianity should be removed from our schools.
@Dom Layzell: The question proposed was if religion should be opt in, you associated it with morality and our culture said it should be taught.
Religion gets it’s morality from man, not the other way around, morality comes from man and was co-opted by religion for it’s own selfish ends. People like Arthur C. Clarke believe this to be one of the greatest tragedies in the history of mankind.
As for our culture, who’s religion should we teach? Our culture goes back many millennia so should we teach the religion of the Celts, neolithic man, the Vikings, the Saxons, The Normans? Christianity is just one recent one in a long line of religions and cultures on this island.
@Graham Manning: Giving an opinion is fine. Interfering with other peoples children not so much.
@Shazam37: Which is why the Parent ,and not the state is the primary educator of the child! A parent is not interested in fairness or equity , a parent wants what is best for their child or children.
Therefore the State should simply assist parents in the education of their children by the delegation of education to patronage bodies for example. This one size fits all model means that only the rich have choice in education, and the poor have to take what the state gives them.
And it seems that religion definitely has a hold over you. This is not about religion, this is about parental choice.
@MaeVic: nonsense – it’s about discrimination.
Discrimination against children. Your selfishness means other kids lose out.
How very Christian. How truly loathsome.
@Dom Layzell: but it’s not education but ideology as proven by how every Christian grouping has fundamental differences with the others. Liberal Christian’s are parrots and careerists not Christians
@Patrick Kearns: the vast majority of us are rich today and are better of than the rich of those days. Christianity today in Europe and the USA spiritually speaking is not Christianity
@Shazam37: It is not about discrimination. It is about Parental choice. The right of a parent, who knows and loves their child, to send them to a school that they deem best for them.
And there is nothing “selfish” about a parent putting their children above every other child. It is called being a parent.
And whether it is “christian” or not is neither here nor there. Although Christian Doctrine does emphasise the primacy of parent over state.
@MaeVic: the acolyte of the Roman Catholic Church is admonishing someone else for “interfering” with children???
@Will: “a”driving force historically? Sure. Today? Not really. Religion has its place, but said place isn’t in schools or with any authority over same.
@Sean Davies: agreed. So the sooner we get it outta schools the summer the C & E catholics will be the end of it.
@Sean Davies: apologies…sooner.
@Graham Manning: I don’t no why you are referring to me as an a Acolyte of the Catholic Church?
All I am concerned with parental choice in education.
But I make no apologies for calling out the demand for change in schools for what it is: interfering with other parents children.
@MaeVic: it is absolutely discriminatory – because your choice means other children lose out.
You can choose whatever you like for your kids. But state police must be for EVERYONE. Not you.
And it is ENTIRELY selfish for you to insist that the state must provide for you to the detriment of others. Grossely so.
@Shazam37: It is NOT selfish for a parent to put there child first. It is simple being a parent.
No parent, no good parent, would or should care, that their choice for their child would cause another to lose out. A parents only duty is to their own child.
At the end of the day, the parent is the primary educator of the child, and the States role is to facilitate that, NOT to impose it’s views on the child.
@Dom Layzell: What about before Christianity, wasn’t that part of our culture? There are many cultural things that are no more. As to ethical and moral teaching, read the Bible. Before you do, prepare yourself for rapes, incest, violence and mass murders. I can suggest some light reading on the recent clerical pedophile cases, the laundries, the money for babies, the abuse of power in schools? How about the misogynistic totalitarianism then? Nothing? It’s none of my business if you buy into religion, if it gives you comfort, well and good. However, there are better sources for ethical and moral behavior than Christianity. Practice it all you want, but don’t impose your beliefs on others.
@Raven: where to begin, I suspect those minds you speak of were brought up in a culture where you couldn’t advance, couldn’t even get educated unless you “believed”. As to if there is a creator, give me proof, if not, keep it to yourself and I’ll respect your beliefs. Start insisting that your beliefs should be or should continue to be imposed on others, then we have a problem.
@Will: ah yes. I agree. I particularly like they way they forged a document, the Donation of Constantine, and used it to basically rule all royal houses in Europe, and therefore Europe, for hundreds of years. How long did slavery last before people got rid of it? The fact that it is part of our heritage does not mean it is good or bad. Teach religious culture in schools, religion itself should be taught outside of any state paying education.
@MaeVic: It is completely selfish – grossely so – to insist that other children lost out so that you are catered for.
@Shazam37: It is called being a parent. Not doing so is being a bad parent-grossly so!
@Raven: I think another word for sky fairy is angel. …, though not sure about the angel of death
@Will: did the romans Greeks and other European groups not have their own cities and civilizations long before Christianity ?
@MaeVic: I disagree – I think being and thereby teaching your kids to be entirely self centred is wrong.
I’ll reach them to consider the needs of others thanks
@Shazam37: Self centred refers to thinking of ones self.
Thinking of your children, is not thinking of yourself.
You should be more concerned that you are teaching your children that they are not your number 1 priority!
@MaeVic: Youre a revolting human being. I’ll be teaching my kids to value other people Too.
You’re exactly what’s wrong with this country. Backwards troglodytes that care only about themselves.
@Shazam37: no point in wandering off down the rabbit hole wit Mae. She’s endlessly right despite facts or reality and not practising what she preaches.
@Shazam37: Who are you to stand in judgement of me? By all means condemn what I say, but you are in no position to judge another person.
Anyway, you have REPEATEDLY stated that a parent who puts their child(ren) above all others is “selfish” . So therefore it stands to reason that you don’t do as much for your children.
@Graham Manning: What do I preach, but not practice?
@Dom Layzell: No it’s part of your culture and has no place in education
More PE, less religious education.
@Ebeneezer Goode: more virtually anything.
@Ebeneezer Goode: we are all quick to forget that there were no schools for ordinary people for generations except them provided by the religious likewise no hospitals either for ordinary people
@Sean Salmon: the first done solely to indoctrinate, abuse and maintain a position of power and influence. We’ve moved on…well most of us have.
Who funds Education Equality?
If you hear your children who attend school repeatedly using the words diversity, inclusivity and equity take them out of that school.
Religion was bad enough but the politically correct indoctrination proposed here is far worse.
@Pat Coyne: “equity”? are ya talking about the value of shares or being fair and impartial? Both horrific things to being inflicting on the children.
@Pat Coyne: why would you not want your child to understand diversity, inclusivity and equality? Stupid thing to say
@Pat Coyne: Agreed!
@Pat Coyne: Imagine being against equality.
@Sean Davies: Who funds Education Equality and what is their ideology.
@Sean Davies: Not against “equality” per se. Just insightful enough to see that it has to balanced against liberty. The most “equal” societies are also the ones were citizens have less freedoms. (such as the freedom of a parent to decide where and how their child is educated)
If you don’t want your kids learning religion then opt out or remove your kids from the school. Simples. You don’t need to change the whole system to suit yourselves
@Niall Donnelly: okay Ned Flanders. The bottom line is that the majority of teachers , parents and children don’t believe in religion so shovelling it into children is just a waste of everyone’s time that could be better spent learning Spanish or music.
@Sean: Then let the “majority” set up their own schools, and leave those who do believe to heir own schools!
@Niall Donnelly: The ‘system’ involves our taxes being used to lie to children, when they could be doing something with their time in school more useful.
@Niall Donnelly: with 96% of national schools being of a religious ethos, where do you propose we send our children? The numbers don’t add up. PS ‘I’m alright jack, let them eat cake’ ain’t the most Christian attitude…
@The Risen: By “our” taxes, you are referring to the parents.it is up to them to decide what is useful, not a stranger such a yourself.
@Ali Moore: Then let them set up their own schools! PS Parental authority and choice in education IS a very Christian attitude!
@MaeVic: a large proportion of schools funded by the State gave been in place for decades. Saying to set up our own schools is ridiculous. Teaching Christian religion doesn’t inspire young ppl to faith but is rote and boring. If you want to teach your children your faith do it on your own time. You would actually be able to impart what you want and wouldn’t seem like a lazy parent wanting others to do the work for you. Or do you lack belief in your own understanding of your faith?
Religion is a personal matter. It should be dealt with as such. Schools are about teaching.
@MaeVic: By that token, why not pay the teaching staff yourself, rather than expect others to fund indoctrination of your children?
@MaeVic: If you want to lie to your kids, do it outside school hours on your own coin.
@Niall Donnelly: except the vast majority of the schools are controlled by the Catholic Church.
Time to turn that upside down and end public religious schools and have a fair approach for everyone.
You want a religious education for you children then pay for it.
@MaeVic: the schools and teachers are not paid for by the Church, they’re funded by tax payer money. Nobody is saying there shouldn’t be Catholic schools, but they definitely should not be the majority.
@Jensen Bhroin: Schools are NOT funded by the State. They are funded by the parents, through their taxes.
Parents setting up ones own schools is not ridiculous, it is a parents duty. and right. The parents is the primary educator of the child, not the State. State’s only role is to facilitate that.
This is not about faith or religion. it is about parents having ultimate say over their children education, not strangers such as yourself.
@Fachtna Roe: I do. It is called Taxes.
@The Risen: I will do it where I wish, and you will accept it.
@Aidan: And the parents are the taxpayers! But i agree with your last sentence.
@MaeVic: The only thing I accept is facts, like the fact that your church is dying in this state, due to the crimes against humanity, especially little children, carried out by its staff.
@Aidan: I’m saying there shouldn’t unless they’re private and entirely privately funded while still following the set curriculum.
@MaeVic: Schools are funded by the State and supposed to be for everyone. They currently are not. Religious has to go.
@MaeVic: You don’t. We do. Including me. If you want your kids taught Irish, or maths, as examples, I’m happy to share the cost. If you want to teach make-believe that probably even your kids will reject when they’re older, pay for that yourself.
@Niall Donnelly: another lazy parent.
@The Risen:What Church? You are the one with OCD (obsessive Catholicism Disorder)
This is not about religion. This is about the right of parents to educate their children as THEY se fit without interference from strangers such as your self!
@Fachtna Roe: Yes i do, through my taxes. The fact that you also pay taxes, and therefore also fund religious education, is something you may not like, but that is how it works.
Tax payers are also paying for abortions, and many don’t like it either!
@Shazam37: They ARE for everyone. All schools have children of all faiths and none.
It is not for YOU to dictate what ethos schools other parents children attend.
@MaeVic: it’s relatively simple, who pays for the education of the children, i.e. the teacher’s salaries, etc.? If it is the state, then we must ask if the state is secular or not, that is, is there a division between church and state. If yes, then teachers who are being paid for by a secular state should not have religious education during official school hours.
@David Stapleton: The parents pay for the education of their children, through their taxes.
The state, secular or not, exists to serve it’s citizens, not the other way round.
Parents being the primary educators of their children, have a right to send their children to schools of their choosing.
The State, being the servant, has a duty to facilitate that right by NOT imposing an educational model on children.
@MaeVic: “It is not for YOU to dictate what ethos schools other parents children attend.”
Actually it is. The Fifth Amendment of the Constitution Act 1972 is an amendment to the Constitution of Ireland which deleted two subsections that recognised the special position of the Catholic Church and that recognised other named religious denominations. It was approved by referendum on 7 December 1972 and signed into law on 5 January 1973.
In effect what this means is a separation of church and State, that doesn’t mean that you don’t have the right to your religion, far from it. What it means is that you don’t have the right to impose your religion upon me or my children, and in turn I don’t get to impose my atheist views upon you or yours. If you wish to have your children taught your particular faith, that’s your business. Literally, it’s your business, keep it private.
As the graphic above clearly indicates less than half of people don’t have a Catholic marriage ceremony and a similar number have a different ceremony, or none. So, if it’s about numbers for you far more, and increasing, disagree.
@Arch Angel: No it is not. This is not about religion.
This is about education. Specifically about the constitutional right of parents to educate their children as they see fit, and the restriction of the power of the State to impose an educational model on children against the wishes of the parents.
Now if the entire weight of the State cannot dictate the ethos of schools, random strangers can hardly do so either!
@MaeVic: Judging from your previous post on this article and others you clearly have strong religious views, that’s fine and your business. The very title of this article makes it clear this is about religion, you may wish to say it isn’t but that’s just not the case. Every time this, or a similar topic pops up, your mantra is almost always the same, the person “should mind their own business”. Perhaps you should practice a little of what you preach? I doubt you’ll want to hear it, but I’ll explain.
Your arguments include: The parents are the primary educator, it’s the States role to facilitate this, not impose it’s views on the child. The demand for change in schools is interfering in other parents children. A parent is not interested in fairness or equity , a parent wants what is best for their child or children. The State doesn’t fund schools, parents do through taxes and the classic, “Christian Doctrine does emphasise the primacy of parent over state.”
Parents are not the primary educator, apart from home schooling which we’re obviously not discussing, children must attend school up to age 16 or until they have completed three years of second-level education. That’s the law in Ireland, it’s the parents who must facilitate this.
We live in a democracy, as the figures have shown the vast majority of people don’t practice Christianity, so you’re in a minority. The majority demanding change in a democracy is quite fair, the new school admissions policies also support this.
Most parents want what’s in the best interest of their children, even if they don’t always agree with it, that’s usually fairness and equality. I can’t speak for you, to be fair.
You think the State doesn’t fund schools… oh boy. The projected budget for the Department of Education and Skills in 2020 is €11.1 Billion, this comes entirely from the State and may have been raised through various means and sources.
I have no doubt every school throughout the country is also required to fundraise in order to meet shortfalls, everyone however pays taxes.
Parents and guardians have the primary responsibility for the care and protection of their children. However, they still have legal obligations and must obey the laws of the State with regard to their children. In short, as a parent you don’t get to tell the State which laws you’ll obey, the State has same laws for everyone. As someone once said, “give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.”
@MaeVic: the basis of an educational system is to impose an educational model. The clue is the word “system”. All children who are not excused, must be educated until a certain age. The state is the servant of the people to a point, it is more that the people have trusted the state to govern. We have empowered the state to act on our behalf. By definition a state must apply rules. It is not up to an individual, parent or not, to decide what those rules should be. If you think it should be, then you are an anarchist or you don’t know what you are talking about.
@MaeVic: This is an example of the effect of your sense of entitlement: Insufficient funding for more essential educational services.(https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/autism-asd-classes-secondary-schools-4197986-Aug2018/)
@Arch Angel: ah hear don’t be using logic, sense, facts and understanding of another’s position with Mae. Thats just mean.
@Arch Angel: Such as?
And that is because the author, like you. suffers from Obsessive Catholicsm Disorder, and is incapable of having a discussion on any topic without bringing it back to religion. For me this is not about religion, it is about parental choice in education. If you want to make it about religion you will have yo go elsewhere.
As for the rest of your argument you are simply factually incorrect. The constitution clearly states that the parent IS the primary educator go the child. Also the constitutionals states that a parent CANNOT be forced to send their child to school.
Until you get your basic information straight there is zero point in continuing this discussion.
@David Stapleton: And the Constitution as it stands limits the power of the State, especially in the areas of the family, and education, and rightly so.
Not an anarchist, but a libertarian.
@Niall Donnelly: How do parents do that when 95% of schools are under religious patronage? Some areas have no Educate Together Schools or they can’t get in as they’re full to capacity. So no Niall it’s, not Simples. We’ll only have a fair inclusive society for all when religion is taken out of our schools and hospitals. If you want your children to have a catholic education you pay to go to a private catholic school, tax payers money should not help the Catholic church indoctrinate kids who don’t want to be indoctrinated.
@MaeVic: hmm, right. Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree then in my opinion that little loophole should not exist. Any parent who does not send their child to school should be prosecuted.
@MaeVic: Didn’t I say? I’m not a Catholic I’m an atheist, just like my entire family, which is possibly why I take such umbrage with Catholics and Christians thinking they have some sort of divine right to impose their beliefs upon others. They don’t. No more than I have to impose my lack of beliefs upon them.
By all means keep insisting this isn’t about religion, when the title clearly says “Religion is a choice – not an obligation. Let’s make religious classes opt-in” I could be rude or make a snide comment, but I’m above that. Apart from which, almost every post, your own included, mention religion. Don’t be a hypocrite, it rude.
The constitution does NOT state this and the State has in fact prosecuted parents for failing to ensure their children attend school.
https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-jailed-for-allowing-children-miss-school-2717866-Apr2016/
May I suggest this wonderful service called google, a few hours using it would be most beneficial for you.
@David Stapleton: Sure we do disagree. But the Constitution Backs up MY position NOT yours. Parents Home educate all the time.
@Arch Angel: And yet you are more concerned with the Catholic Church than most Catholics. I think the Atheist Doth protest too much.!
And yes this IS about education, and about parental choice in education.
Plain and simple.
And the Constitution DOES indeed say that the parents is the Primary Educator of the Child AND that a parent Cannot be forced to send a child to School.
I suggest you read B na hE!.It WILL be beneficial . And it won’t take that long!
@Susan Broe: They set them up themselves! Simple.
Just like parents did in the 1970′s to get Gaelscoileanna!
And the parents pay their taxes, so they should be allowed send their children to schools of heir choosing.
And BTW what do you have against poor catholics, that you only believe those rich enough to pay privately should be allowed to send their children to Catholic Schools?
@MaeVic: This article, the statistics it quotes etc. couldn’t make clearer that it’s about the teaching of religion in schools. It’s YOU who keeps attempting to claim it’s about education, no, it’s not. The teaching of Catholic religion is not education and has nothing to do with it. We live in a democracy, when it’s demonstrated that less and less people are practicing Catholics it’s just a matter of time for the majority to exercise their right. If you’d prefer to live in a autocratic religious state I could recommend a few Middle Eastern ones.
I did make it clear previously that it was obvious we weren’t discussing home schooling. I’ve demonstrated the State prosecutes those parents who don’t send their children to school. I’ve posted the education Budget. Post proof.
@Arch Angel: The article is about religion on schools because the author, like yourself, obsessed with religion AND with other parents children
For me, this is about parents right to have their children educated as THEY see fit. (not you, not me, not the state).
Whether or not he teaching of religion is education or not is for parents to decide. (not me, not you or “the state”)
I am very happy that as demographics change, school patronage changes. But that change MUST be in response to parental demand, NOT imposed on children against the wishes of parents. And of course as things stand constitutionally that is the only way things can happen. The State cannot come in and simply take over schools.( Because it recognises parental primacy in education AND private property rights)
In that vein, I expect to see more Muslim Schools, as they have a high birth rate. Secularists, with all their contraception and now abortion Not so much.
@MaeVic: Nobody made you read or comment on this article, the author wrote it and The Journal posted it. You assume everything else. Frankly to say I’m obsessed with other parents children is not only insulting but bordering on libelous, I’d invite you to withdraw that remark.
The rules and laws regarding our schools and how religion should be taught are somewhat antiquated, some even going back to the 19th century.
In the Clontarf Report, written in 2011, John Shuttle made it clear that in the early days of the State it was initially envisaged that all children would need religious instruction, in the National School system it was viewed this would be received from the clergy, not State funded teachers. However it became the practice that National School teachers gave religious instruction. The system where religious denominations made significant financial contributions to the local National Schools, allowing for payment towards religious instruction by State funded teachers have been discontinued.
One proposed solution was to allow religious instruction be only done at separate defined periods in the schools carried out by clergy, or lay people. The State is constitutionally precluded from endowing or supporting any religion, and consequently there is no legislation governing religious instruction in National Schools.
The problem with this proposal is that it was almost ten years ago and the demographics of the National Schools have changed significantly in that time. The State cannot cater for one religion and not another so would have to cater for all, or none. As there are now so many diverse religions in National Schools it would be impossible to cater for all of these, and it is, ultimately, the responsibility of the parents to cater for their children’s religious instruction, not the State.
There were quite a few recommendations made in this report and, with regard to the admissions policy, this was only recently carried out. So you see, this has has little to do with “parental demand” but rather the law. What they’ve been doing all along was legally wrong, and then of course you have the reality that within a few years you’ll have a a few Catholics holding the other religions basically to ransom. Clearly, as you’ve said, in a democratic society the majority must prevail. In fact they should now. Even those secularists who, given the language you use, you clearly hold in disdain.
@Arch Angel: Well that is a fairly rambling rant, which says nothing.
The point is, the constitution Rightly puts the parent as the primary educator of the child, and as such the parent has a right to place their child in an educational facility that reflects THEIR beliefs. It is true that the state cannot provide for ALL beliefs. So you it as far as practicable. Based on (a) parental demand and (b) the birthrate among different demographics.
Sure that means that some groups won’t get what the want, but that is up to them to change by having more kids! Simples!
Starts with parents attitudes first, Communion and confirmation is seen as a reason for a party and celebration, not for what it is, a commitment to be part of the Catholic Church and it’s beliefs. It should be outside of school, with parents and children going to their church to do lessons. My children attend a ET school, and are not baptised. I do not believe in fairy stories and school imo is for learning factual information. A few months ago a neighbor who attends a catholic school told one of my kids that rain is gods tears!! Ffs!
I know so many parents who have baptised children out of fear of what other family members think. Nothing will change if parents don’t take a stand.
@Bleurgh: Communion and confirmation, with their capital lumps, are an integral part of the bribe/reward process. Better to let kids grow up and make their own decisions. But, as you say, parents must make their stand, and the rest of us must support them.
It’s cute that he thinks schools have a 30 minute religion lesson every day. The reality is it’s once a week outside of communion and confirmation classes and even those only have religion classes twice a week and three classes a week just before those events.
@Rachel O’ Meara: Educate Together has religion (of the world) classes twice a week. You expect us to believe your fake news that Catholic schools have it less than that?! Anyway I checked all 4 schools in our area before I enrolled. All had daily religion except for Educate Together. Don’t get me started on the tasteless beauty pageant that is Communion. You look at the kids faces and hear ‘ka-ching!’ as they plan what games console to buy with all the takings… Wait… Sorry they’re thinking about the Holy Spirit ahem…
@Sinead Mooney: Officially they have daily religion but not in reality. The slot is 12 each day and normally the lunches come out at 12:15.
@Sinead Mooney: I’m an atheist, I’m only going on my own experience of being in a religious primary school when I was little and now my childrens experience of also going to a religious primary school (different schools in different parts of the country). In my day outside of saying a prayer before eating lunch and one at the end of the day we did religion once a week. My childrens class don’t even do religion most weeks. That’s the reality in lots of religious run schools from speaking to friends and family who have kids in schools in various parts of the country and of course my own experience.
@Rachel O’ Meara: I was in school in the early 2000s and we used to do religion every day, the priest would come in and talk at least a few times a week, communion, confession and confirmation would take up entire school days for weeks on end.
@Rachel O’ Meara: too many religious classes, should be outside the school day
@Shane Barry: brainwashing children, disgusting
@Sinead Mooney: You enrolled your children elsewhere, great, good for you. I chose one based on academic results not religion. Speaking of which just because we’re not religious doesn’t mean we can look down our noses at those who are. Try to be more tolerant, it costs nothing to be nice.
@Rachel O’ Meara: could you be any more patronising? That is not the reality at all. In fact on top of the actual RE lesson, religion often permeates the entire day. Prayers are said regularly & indoctrination occurs under the guise of other subjects such as art, drama, music and even history.
@Sinead Mooney: educate together schools teach the Learn Together curriculum in place of the religion curriculum. Both are 30 minutes a day. The Learn Together curriculum consists of 4 strands: moral and spiritual, equality and justice, belief systems and ethics and the environment. More than just 2 religion of the world classes a week.
Let Education Equality build schools like the churches did.
@Padraig Corcoran: who pays for those church run schools?
@Graham Manning: The parents.
@Graham Manning: Parents aka taxpayers
@Padraig Corcoran: só not the church. Trying to dodge that point there I see. Parents and non parents and anyone paying tax in Ireland. Educate together and other non religious schools would build more with the allocation but divestment is key but as this article points out that will be a slow and arduous process.
The fact is that the fact the vast number of schools are Catholic ethos doesn’t reflect the make up of our country.
The most equitable solution would be to even that number out so that ppl have the choice what school to send their child to rather than as it currently stands. In the absence of that religion should be an extra curricular activity.
@Padraig Corcoran: I think you may be confusing Primary and Secondary levels. It’s my understanding that the vast majority of Primary schools were built, and funded for building, by the State.
@Padraig Corcoran: the church didn’t build 2000 schools, the state did and then handed them to the church. But I think you knew that.
@MaeVic: thats not entirely true though is it. Schools are paid for by the state which collects taxes from many sources. It is unlikley that the taxes collected from the parents of the children currently at any given school would be enough to keep the school afloat. Schools where set up by the catholic church many years ago in a different era and with a different social system. It makes no financial sense for the secular state that Ireland is, to start building and running schools for every denomination. Especially given the fact that it can barely keep the current school system afloat. The catholic church should no longer have such a major and influential role in our State run, paid by taxes, system. (the Stae is the people the people are the state. All of them)
@Keith Bines: It is true.
And the State is the servant of the people, not the other way round.
The parent is the primary educator of he child, NOT the State.. The states job is to facilitate the parent in he education of their children, not to impose an education system on the child AGAINST the wishes of the parent.
@MaeVic: “The states job is to facilitate the parent in he education of their children, not to impose an education system on the child AGAINST the wishes of the parent.”
But that’s the whole point. The best way to provide an educational system that meets the *educational* needs of all parents with wildly differing belief systems is to remove those belief systems from the schools. Those who want a specifically religious education for their children can then choose an appropriate specialist school ( though they may have to pay for it), or else provide religious education themselves at home or elsewhere. All taxpayers fund all schools, so all state-funded schools should cater for all children. They can only do that by removing religion from them entirely.
@Pseud O’Nym: The best way to provide an education system to meet the needs of all parents and children is to provide a plurality of educational institutions. (religious/ secular, co ed/ single sex, gael scoil/ english medium etc).
In this way the parents have a choice where their children are educated, and having paid for that education through their taxes, that is what they are entitled to.
@MaeVic: You’ll be happy to pay for a Muslim madrassa in your parish?
@Fachtna Roe: Of course!
@MaeVic: and right now the state is forcing parents who don’t want their children educated in a non religious school to attend religiois schools. Taxpayers money pays for education not just parenst. Education of our childfen affects everybody and we all have a say. If you want religous education send them to Sunday school. As a parent of 4 I object to my taxes being used to fund the religious run schools. It is us who have no choice and are being forced to send our children to religious schools in a secular state.
@Keith Bines: And that is wrong. And the way to fix that is to have a greater diversity of school choice.
And that is up to you. YOU set them up. Just like Parents in the 70′s had to do to get Irish language medium education for their children.
But don’t forget, religious parents are tax payers to and are as entitled to send their children to religious schools as seculars are to send their (very few) children to secular schools. Why should religion parents be forced to send their children to secular schools.?
My 8 year old has to practice prayers as part of his homework for communion preparation. Two of which mention that he asks god for forgiveness for sinning. He then told me he was sorry for sinning. Instead of teaching kids love for themselves they are thought that they are sinner’s and should ashamed.
@Charles McCarthy: Sin is an imaginary illness invented so religious conmen could sell you the cure.
@Charles McCarthy: yes. The Church is great at dishing out the guilt trip. It’s brainwashing pure and simple
@Charles McCarthy: They’re taught they were born bad, and are defective. That doubt acts as a hook, and few fish get off a hook by themselves. “I will make you fishers of Men” etc!
@Fachtna Roe: Give a man a fish, and you’ll feed him for a day. Teach a man religion, and he’ll starve to death praying for a fish.
@The Risen: ROTFL!
@Charles McCarthy: opt him out , there is still time. Be true to youselves
Excellent article, and he is correct. We need a more modern approach to how we view religious indoctrination in our schools. Bronze age myth being taught as fact to impressionable children (and our taxes bring used to do so in most instances) has to stop.
Something that has been at the centre of humanity since the dawning if time….I wonder could it actually have some significance and usefulness for society? Our entire western culture and our social contract came from Christian ideals, underwritten by categorical imperatives. Even those who claim
to be atheists are Imbued with the collective consciousness of Christianity. This culture which is shared by all if us, remains unseen so that it has been taken for granted. Yet it is the rock upon which our society flourishes. The world is a platform for action and not a place of things. Human beings are goal oriented creatures and our ultimate goal is to align our selves with the greatest good we can conceive off. Our young people need guidance on their path.
@Johnny Gannon: Well said….. but expect a backlash.
@Johnny Gannon: Christianity is one of the newest religions there is just behind Islam, so most of human history comes from pagan belief. Yes christianity is a massive part of our history but that doesn’t mean the future has to be built on it, Children can be taught right and wrong in many different ways, but the Bible which I have read a few times is not the best way to do it. The old testament preaches war and hatred and the new testament is a really short story repeated 4 times followed by prayers and letters. As a former christian, it was only when I left religion go at the age of 21 that I became a more moral and ethical person. Religion before then was leading me down a very intolerant path.
@Shane Barry: yeah religion and spirituality have deep roots. Christianity grew from Judaism and paganism in its many forms thrived throughout Europe. Its why so many of our holidays coopted pagan festivals and many of their symbols and practices. We don’t have or practice the same Christianity across the world or indeed in Europe. Even within the same denominations. We just have to look at home Catholicism was in Ireland versus other countries. We are not the sum of Christianity. Has it had a shaping role on society over the last 1500 years? Yes, much so have so many other things. We are also not that differently spiritually from numerous other belief systems and those that we do differ from substantially are not inferior.
And again we can’t pretend that all culture that was influenced by Christianity was positive. And indeed by Catholicism, the reformation illustrates that as much as dies the persecution of unorthodox over the centuries and the treatment if minorities
@Johnny Gannon: so give It to them
Johnny. But I’ll exclude my kids thanks.
@Johnny Gannon: 1) People are not ‘Imbued’ magically with Christianity; it’s brainwashed into them in schools. 2) Our society has previously ‘flourished’ it’s way to global conflicts, and now ‘flourishes’ it’s way to threatening every other species. 3) The main reason children are taught the Roman religion before the age of reason is because before that age they absorb and regurgitate without processing. After that age, they cross-reference and look for proof.
@Johnny Gannon: something that has been dividing humanity from the dawning of time is more appropriate.
That’s a great article. Schools should be obliged to teach as many true things and as few false things as possible, and should properly reflect our society. As the results of recent referenda and the turnout at the popes visit have illustrated, we are no longer a catholic country. Time for our system of education to catch up.
@The Risen: I agree. And the way for our education system to “catch up” is to ensure a wide variety of educational patronage, reflecting the diverse views in society. After all diversity is what we are all about these days!
@MaeVic: it makes far more sense to leave educational instruction to the parents and their communities.
@Jensen Bhroin: What makes more sense is entirely up to parents to decide, not you or me!
@MaeVic: What a ridiculous comment. What makes sense is not subjective. What’s the likelihood of 20 different views from 20 different parents all making sense??
@The Risen: come on. What makes “sense” is of course subjective. Based on priorities. What you and I see as sensible might be completely different.
Case in point.
@The Risen: Actually it is “subjective”. Teaching children that there are 100+ genders is for many parents pure nonsense, and for parents it is perfectly sensible. Either way that is up to the parents to decide, not you or me.
@MaeVic: the basis of the education is system is not and shouldn’t be “up to parents” – because many parents like you are completely selfish.
@Shazam37: Yes it is. The constitution clearly states that the parent is the primary educator NOT the State.
And ALL parents put their children first. All parents want what is best for their children. Any parent who seeks “equality, or fairness” for their child is seriously doing their child a disservice.
@MaeVic: the parent can seek the best for their children. The State must provide for all children.
You insisting that state policy must be for your benefit is selfish. Simple as that.
@Shazam37: “my” benefit. What are you on about? This is not about me.
This is about parents, and children.
And it is the parents duty to provide for their children, the State can assist.
And the State certainly must not prevent parents doing what is best for their children, by preventing them from sending their children to schools that the parents deem are best.
@MaeVic: you’re a nincompoop.
The state can and with any luck will remove any and all patronage of the church from schools. Hopefully within my lifetime.
In the meantime I’ll have my children educated away the likes of your selfishness thanks.
Grotesque.
@Shazam37: Typical. Lose the argument so you resort to name calling.
And in order for the state to remove patronage, not one but several referendums will be required , including one asking parents to relinquish power of their children to the State, AND to remove private property rights.
How do you think they will go down,
And as for your children, do what you want with them, they are nothing to me. YOU are the one who wants to interfere with other parents children. not me!
@MaeVic: nonsense – schools are changjng patronage already. Thankfully.
Soon we will be rid of catholic influence in state schools and you and your Ilk can pay the Catholic Church to indoctrinate your children.
God your children must be absolutely foul horrible selfish little people if you’re anything to go by.
@Shazam37: Voluntarily.
But the Sate cannot just come in and take over Schools.
So your vision of a one size fits all model can only come about through several referendums.
This is not about the influence of the Catholic Church. It is about the Influence of Parents. What about that are you failing to grasp?
And i dread to think what your children must be like knowing that you see them as no more important than a strangers children.
The sooner indoctrination is removed from schools the better. We need to evolve as a state and recognise that in order to treat all children equally we cannot force the ‘dominant’ religion on them against their parent’s wishes. I cannot see why moving faith formation out of core school hours is so objectionable to some. It is absolutely normal that religious instruction would not take place during the school day. The Irish situation is completely abnormal. I wish people would realise this. If you actually care about your religion why not make some effort In relation to it? Huge swathes of people just go with the flow because they are either cultural Catholics or because they don’t want their child to be the only one not taking part. Surely we can see how wrong this is? Why do we continue to let the RC church, with all ‘issues’ to continue to have such an influence in our daily lives? With Repeal and marriage equality it is evident that Irish people do not support the RC’s beliefs. Let’s get them out of our schools and out of healthcare. Let those who wish to follow the church opt in and no one has to lose out.
@Ali Moore: Well said. Even the catholic church is talking about removing faith formation from school hours. I doubt many of the god fearing catholics posting here would like to wake up in the morning to find their children exposed to muslim or hindu indoctrination as part of the school day, and to be footing the bill for it.
@The Risen: why would anyone have a problem funding muslim or Hindu indoctrination? I am not an adherent of either of those religions, but of there is enough demand from those parents, and most importantly, they have a high enough birthrate, to fill theses schools, it is not for me to interfere.
@MaeVic: That hasn’t stopped you… The argument is to remove all religious education from schools, if a parent wants to educate their child in their religion it’s up to them. If they’re Muslim, Hindu, Catholic etc. They arrange their religious education outside of school.
@Arch Angel: No, your argument is for strangers like yourself to interfere in how other parents children are educated.
Simply none of your business.
Separation of church/religion and state!!!
Teach fact, not fiction.
No publicly funded service should ostracise any citizen, particularly a 4 year old child.
A modern republic should have decent, well-funded public services that are open to all and that includes our schools.
As a society we’ve pushed back against religious involvement in our hospitals but our schools have proved to be a different matter.
Please sign the petition to end religious segregation and indoctrination in our taxpayer-funded schools:
https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/teach-religious-faith-formation-outside-the-school-day
@Paddy Monahan: Done. Keep up the good work mate!
@Paddy Monahan: done. Fair play.
@Paddy Monahan: Done
@Paddy Monahan: Maith thú, Paddy. :)
The problem is that religious education in Ireland is too heavily emphasised on Christianity making it outdated and irrelevant in our multicultural society. As we become more internationalised it’s unfair to force children to study a religion which has absolutely zero relevance to their own family beliefs and cultural identity. Although it could certainly be an optional subject, it could be covered in history class (and not only Christianity, but world religions in general). There are more important subjects relevant for their future to develop their skills such as coding and becoming more tech literate.
@Corbmac Mac Aodha: and Reading and basic math skills. Yeah great about coding but many in primary school are leaving without strong literacy skills
@Corbmac Mac Aodha: There’s more to life than tech.
Oh for God’s sake.
@D’oh: What’s it all about Ted?
They are not forced into the catholic schools , if those schools do not fit their ideas , let them go to some other school that pleases them and not be trying to change what we the people have and want for our children .
@William Mcgee: where are these imaginary schools?
@Graham Manning: Dunno, but … it seems appropriate that they would be imaginary to us, but real to him. ;)
@Graham Manning: Springing up everywhere. ET and CNT are becoming patrons all over the country, whenever new schools are developed.
@MaeVic: either lying or ignorant. Neither’s a good look Mae.
@Graham Manning: Yes you are. And no it is not!
@MaeVic: hehe…I know you are but what am i?
@Graham Manning: Someone who wants to interfere with other parents children!
I see we have the usual gang of strange adults (mostly men) who deem it appropriate to tell other parents how and where their children should go to school. Mind your own business.
@MaeVic: Playing the gender card. Weak.
@The Risen: No I was playing the “strange adult” card. I was just pointing out the fact, that the majority of strangers commenting here are men.
@MaeVic: Women are not excluded from commenting so what’s your point?
Oh I see it’s men’s fault even “if” women don’t participate?
Grow up.
@MaeVic: Not a man, and you have ignored the many women who have started they want religion out of schools. This isn’t a gender issue. We can make it a gender issue by looking at the churches historical treatment of women, girls and onwards from that of LGBT ppl.
@MaeVic: And?
@MaeVic: Ah, yes. The “stranger danger” card. The lowest of the Ad Hominems, possibly. When ‘played’ by an adult, it translates as “you’re not me so you must be wrong”. Very cogent.
@MaeVic: they’re not telling other people where to send their kids to school. They’re saying religion shouldn’t necessarily form part of the school’s education process, which it shouldn’t. Imagine if the time spent on religion class was spent teaching kids a new skill?
@Charles McCarthy: But when I originally posted not many had.
@Jensen Bhroin: And unless those women are the mothers of the children, it is none of their business.
Nor is it a church issue. It is an issue of parental choice. plain and simple.
@Fachtna Roe: Not any adult in fairness. Just stranger vs. parent,
And when it comes to a parent who knows and loves a child, and a stranger who neither knows or cares about him or her, he parent is right.
@The Risen: And most parents don’t want strange men interfering with their children!
This left wing media want up to get rid of tradition and have this new mid-Atlantic fake accent,kinda like Newstalk BS
I would prefer if they took the religion class out and replaced it with health and wellbeing, yoga etc. I am catholic saying this!
@Siobhan Rosemary: Replace it with hurling. The one true religion!
@Will: One sliothar to rule them all, and in the Craobh to bind them!
Non religious here but the schools should teach about religion as a subject in terms of social studies. Explain their values and viewpoints etc. Discuss each one as study subject not as a guide for ‘morality’ or ‘values’. Religion should be taught by the religious in their churches, mosques, temples and meeting houses, not foisted upon others in a learning environment.
In Italy the home of the Pope even in the Vatican City all public schools are non-denominational. Kids must attend after school classes in religion to do Communion etc. I agree that most teachers skim over it but it’s not enough. My beautiful bright 6 year old daughter care home last week harping on about God creating everything in a day and has rewritten what she learnt in Creche about us starting out as amoebae in the water! Time for it to go or teach about all religions.
Religion has no place in the school in general unless it’s a broad focus on global religions, indoctrination is not education.
If educate together leaders had been abusing children would they still be in business. Anyone who thinks teaching religion in schools needs to read the ryan report
In most cases, primary schools are owned by the patron. That patron may be a religious patron or non-religious patron. Either way, it’s a “my house, my rules” approach.
If you live in an area that has only one choice of school which has been there for 50+ years, and the school’s patron is not the one you want, it is not the fault of the school or the patron.
I’m lucky in that I have a choice of 5 schools in my area – a mixture of Educate together, Gaelscoil and Church run. I chose none of them.
I chose a school based on how happy overall I thought my children would be. I knew they would not be happy in the local schools. I’m happy with my choice. I didn’t care if religious education was part of the day/week or not.
@Gerard McDermott: Thank you for that odd contribution which clarified nothing at all
@Gerard McDermott: Brilliant! This IS exactly how the education system should work! Fair play to you for bring a diligent parent, who not being happy with what was on offer for your children, decided to look elsewhere. Your children are ver lucky to have a parent who will go the extra mile for them.
@Shazam37: It clarifies everything about parental choice in education. AND about doing what is best for your children. Here is a parent who used his “choice” to find a school that best suited his children.
A choice you would deny him.
@Shazam37: Obviously flew over your head.
@MaeVic: and if we don’t have a choice?
You’re the one denying choice. My kids don’t have an option. Just religious options. All to satisfy grotesques
Like you.
@Shazam37: Well then it is your duty to fight for your children, so that they have other options.
It is not the job of other parents to put their own children at a disadvantage because you are failing in that duty!
@MaeVic: I have been reading your comments and I have to admit to finding hard not to reply more strongly to your passive aggressiveness. Secular state should mean secular schools. If you want your kids to be educated in a religious school you should pay for a private religious school that can finance itself.
@David Stapleton: Quite the advocate of tyranny aren’t you? Citizens must take what the state says? North Kore seems to be the place for you!
And why do you hate poor people? Only rich parents should have the choice of where the children go to school?
Pluralist Strate, plural schools. win win for every one!
Perhaps if your child shows an interest in God then let him/her ask about Him and find a place where he/she will get some answers. Prayers/kindness can help in the world we live in today, its so fraught with disease, sadness, war.
Down with that sort of thing!
It’s an inconvenient fact that at the last census 78% of Irish people identified as Catholic.
@Ken Hickey: so 22% of schools shouldn’t be run by the church? Good start. And “identifying” as Catholic and being one are two very different things. Contraception, repeal the 8th, lack of priests and empty churches says otherwise.
Take religion instrction out iof schools. A little module exploring religions around the world would be grand, but that it. Sunday school on Sundays for those that require it.
An article more full of spin than actual facts.
@Adam Conroy: hehe…the god botherer is complaining about a lack of facts??? Priceless.
David Graham of Education Equality.
Agree – Religion is a choice – not an obligation. Should be opt-in.
Same for Irish Language .. a nice legacy, hobby language, but not for forcing on others.
Personally, I think we’d all be a whole lot better off without religion of any sort- causes so much conflict, division& intolerance around d world. A far better idea would be to teach ethics and philosophy in schools so students can learn to think for themselves!
If the parents in a school catchment area are happy with a school ethos , that should b respected , if a majority wish to change that should be respected too. A vocal minority should not be allowed to dictate things .
A lot of these anti religion crowd are little more than unreconstructed Socialists/ Trots/Communists . Wonder will they tackle the Muslim schools ??….No didn’t think so ..,cowards the lot of them
@Angry_Man41: there should be no public religiously run schools (covers your odd dig re Muslim schools) and any private ones should be entirely privately funded while following the set curriculum. Your communist etc thing just shows ya should’ve paid more attention in history/English class
@Graham Manning: There should be a plurality of educational opportunity for parents to choose from. The state should serve!
Might want to teach classes about the tradition that informed the minds that crafted modern civilaization though, so that they may understand it better. Don’t have to get the kids to praise Jesus or anything, but making this optional seems like a fine way to detach kids from their heritage. If you’re going to stop teaching them about the philosophy of the dominating force in Irish society for the past 1000 years, might as well make all subjects optional. Might as well make school optional at that right, lest you actually learn something about the past.
If Ireland had been a Protestant country, it would have developed industrially parallel to England and we would not have the religious North/South divide and the misery that relgious conflict has visited on us in the 20th C.
And the bonus would have been a good work ethic
@Moorooka Mick: They did try. 800 years of penal laws: Forbidding Catholics to vote or own land, Killing priests, having lay catholics go to Mass in fields etc.
The realities are that the faith is to be for all meaning even children are told to turn to Bible and Church tradition which contain disturbing teaching. Consider the tone Jesus habitually used and the threats. Consider animal sacrifice. Consider the woman who Jesus led to feel she was about to be stoned. The issues with Christianity are endless including prophecies that Jesus would rise being written down after the alleged event. Consider the inherent antisemitism … this is not a faith that should be in a position to upset children who are lgbt or whose parents are unwed. There is the issue of confession which totally insults child protection
The basis of Christianity is free will.
Choice to believe in God or not to believe in God. He certainly does not want robots who follow Him because they have to.
God desires a personal relationship with us and He gives us that opportunity up until our very last breath.
In today’s world of infinite information there is availability of teaching and learning about what Christianity stands for and the realities, responsilities and benefits of becoming a follower of Christ.
I know why Religion/Communion/Confirmation has been taught during school hours in the past and I also know that culture and religion in Ireland have been intermixed for hundreds of years. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the coming years.
@Seeking Truth: “The basis of Christianity is free will.”
Christianity, like all religions, relies on getting to people early, when they are young in order to plant the seed of the belief system and effectively programme the child to believe one set of fairy tales over all others.
Can you call it free will when the underlying framework has already been constructed?
It would be interesting to see how many people turn to religion if they are not introduced to any of it until they are 18. Organised religion would look very different then today, that’s if it could even survive such a level playing field.
@Will: If you are talking about “religion” where people are obsessed with numbers and funding and finances and subjugation then yes, I agree with you. Get ‘em early and don’t let them think too much.
But I am talking about the fundamental reality of what the Bible says about a personal relationship with God. Going to church does not make a person a Christian. It is the free choice of making a decision to follow the Lord, to enter into a relationship freely and wholeheartedly. It is actually a covenant relationship — a word that is rarely used in modern society – which might seem restrictive but brings a whole lot of peace into those who choose it.
@Seeking Truth: Well said. Most people including the non believers havent a clue about the meaning of true Christianity.
The Catholic church should be concerned that they are not indoctrinating the children as most of the people who went to their schools voted for repeal and same sex marriage.
have your say