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EDUCATION MINISTER RICHARD Bruton said his department will use whatever “avenues are necessary” to ensure that Education and Training Board (ETB) schools are providing alternative subject choice to religion for students who wish not to partake.
In February, the Department of Education issued a circular to schools with new rules which require state-run multi-denominational schools to provide alternative subject choices to students who don’t wish to study religion.
However, since the new rules came into effect, there have been some reports that some schools are not adhering to the policy.
When asked about the matter at a back to school launch this morning, the minister said inspectors will be out in force to ensure that schools have adequate policies in place.
He said it is “very important” that schools which have been set up as ETBs offer alternatives to multi-denominational and non-religious students.
“That is the principle in which they were established,” he said, adding: “It is very important they fulfill that principle.”
The minister said that while the vast majority of students in the past were from a Catholic background, that is not the case now.
The department has said there is constitutional right not to attend religious instruction, and the government is obliged to give that effect through changed practices.
He said ETB schools must now move with the “changing makeup” of the pupils in their schools.
If necessary, and schools are failing to adhere to the department’s new rules, Bruton said he will use whatever avenues are needed to ensure schools comply.
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While I am completely in favour of the separation of Church and State and I am fully behind the move to make religion an optional subject, unfortunately schools don’t have enough staff or funding to offer another subject in it’s place.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: we’ll get enough staff or get religion out of schools
@sean o’dhubhghaill: who is he kidding?? there’s a shortage of teachers in the country and he’s saying facilities will be made available. spoofer!
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: Meanwhile 8,000 patent’s are on hospital trollies all over the Country or has the Government gone beyond caring?
@sean o’dhubhghaill: always thought it should be more of a cspe class. A study of culture and society.
@Alan Scott: will forcing religion on children help those patients* in any way? Or are you suggesting we scrap education altogether until we have the health care system in this country up to the standard it should be at?
@sean o’dhubhghaill: as a teacher with ample experience timetabling that’s not true
@Graham: you need 1 extra teacher to timetable against each religion class. So with 6 years and say 3 class groups per year that is 18 extra class period times which have to be covered. 18 periods is about 0.6 of a W.T.E. so where does the school get this from without extra funding?
@sean o’dhubhghaill: comparative study of the main religions should be the answer
And not religious teaching of one religion
@sean o’dhubhghaill: depending on the year and other timetable considerations we always timetable religion back to back with 1 or in some cases 2 other classes. These are either options students rotate through during the year or choose at years start so there’s always another option if you don’t do religion. That’s without any additional allocation.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: there isn’t actually a shortage, there’s a shortage of full time positions and in particular secondary school teachers just out of college cannot even get enough hours to make a living. The system is the problem, not the number of teachers. The unions and govt paid out a fortune to the older ones in lump sums and pensions – money not well spent in my opinion.
@Alan Scott: They never did care, their only concern is super-profits fir their business henchmen and that they look in the eyes of marxists & aethiests. No principles whatever
@Alan Scott: They never did care, their only concern is super-profits fir their business henchmen and that they look in the eyes of marxists & aethiests. No principles whatever
“Religion” should be changed to “Theology and Mythology”. The subjects should provide an overview of the subject as it relates to all civilizations (or majority) and then students can delve deeper in projects etc.
I would have loved to have learned about Greek/Roman Gods in secondary school.
@Hellenize Dublin: Good call….
Throw in some philosophy as well and you’re on the way to a subject that can really be enjoyable as well as aiding personal development.
@Hellenize Dublin: Funnily enough, people learn far more about Greco-Roman gods and mythology than they do about Celtic gods and mythology. Anyone here ever heard of Dagda, Cernunos, Nuadha Airgeadlámh or Manannan mac Lir?
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: thanks for raising Brian, very ignorant of me.
I recently tried to do some reading on Celtic mythology, and was immensely intrigued but found scant information. Lest we forget Halloween was an Irish pagan festival.
To add to my initial point, the curriculum should start with a history of Irish mythology and religion, starting with Celtic/pagan and then to Catholicism, and then explore the world.
People may say that’s too broad, but I think providing a wide variety of info can enable students to delve deeper in personal projects and homework.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: yes. You have.
@Jumperoo: let’s not forget Firbolg and the Tuatha De Danan
@Hellenize Dublin: and what about judaism..why shouldnt they also learn about it..we have had to have christianity thrown at us…so why not the other way around..if jesus was supposed to have been a jew does it not make sense..
Either take it out all together (it has no place anyway) or allot all of the time for religion on a weekly basis to one afternoon E.g Friday Afternoons , and kids who dont want to do it could just go home … no one gets any extra classes, and no real change to school resources
@Kev O’Donoghue: that would be the best possible solution. But not what Rich Brunton wants- he wants everybody to opt out of religion. Get rid of it altogether. If he could offer something else to give an advantage over those who do religion more people would opt out.
@Kev O’Donoghue: Probably the most sensibile comment yet.
@Pajo Mata: boo hoo.
And Richard will provide the Teachers, the Classrooms, the books, the resources etc…Really. Ah No, he will send his brigade to Enforce it all – the Punitive route always works, and its always his Modus of operation. Man is SO out of touch with the reality on the ground. ( i am not disagreeing at all with the concept by the way)
@Margate: spoofer! claiming we’ll have the best education system in Europe in 10 years yet we have the worst investment in education in western europe and we’re copying examination systems from Scandinavia that teachers have not been trained in yet and that have proven to have failed….but we dived at the idea and invested money into it so we need to go through with it. idiot!
What we need is many teachers that can juggle with one hand, sew with one foot, play the flute, bang a drum, listen to a child’s homework and recite Shakespeare all at the same time and we’ll all be just grand.
I’m fine with my kids having free time. Colouring books, a bit of art .
Schools haven’t the where with all to arrange another subject.
@Mr Jerry Curtin: At primary level theres no reason why a teacher can’t organise alternative educational activities during the religion lesson for children who opt out.
@Mr Jerry Curtin: What’s wrong with putting more effort into the subjects that are already there?
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: and when would teachers organise this? After all the copies, workbooks and tests are corrected? Or after the plans, resources and worksheets are gathered and prepared? Or after useless “Croke Park” hours, which are not allowed to be used for the above? Or even after training the school hurling, football, soccer, basketball team? Not to mention all the new initiatives that are dumped onto teachers’ tables weekly.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: And you have worked in a classroom teaching 30 children??? Well?
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: That’s usually what happens.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: Of course not and that is what happens in most cases, but there isn’t anyone to “ teach” them and no spare room for them to go to.
@Margate: Yes I have. I’m a primary teacher. My pupils who opt out of religion are given a weekly topic to research and produce a project on it. They present their work to the class once a month. Very straightforward.
@Kev: Theres little of no organisation in it. As I stated in a previous post any child in my class who doesn’t do religion does project work during the religion lesson. It’s just differentiation.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin:
a) How many students in your Full class?
B)Now we have a problem- at least once a week, you are Depriving the RE cohort of children from their RE Curriculum entitlements- by usurping time with the Non RE group????? That’s NOT Right either??
@Margate: 31 last year mixed 5th and 6th. and I havn’t had under 30 for a considerable number if years. Your second point holds no water. Would you make the same point about children who have an Irish exemption?
I’m a secondary school teacher (not religion) and I’m in favour of separating religion and state. I’m also not religious myself. However, I think religion should be mandatory at Junior Cycle level. It’s fundamentally important that we understand about different belief systems which exist worldwide, how they influence culture and shape society. You can’t understand history without knowledge of religion which can help break down sectarian barriers.
@Dainéil Ó hÍobhair: finally a sensible comment. When I sat in a religious class I wasn’t indoctrinated or brain washed. I learned about different cultures and do you know what, It made it easier to talk to students from a different background and religion. Surely parents can see the value of learning regardless if they practice the religion or not?
@Dainéil Ó hÍobhair: completely agree… just wish that was how religion was taught in all schools in the country. I was made sit through videos from the 70s and 80s discussing why divorce is bad, abortions are bad, lgbt+ people are bad , and sex is bad.
We read “Tuesday with Morrie” and “The 5 people you meet in Heaven”. We were dictated verses from the bible. We were, on Ash Wednesday, made to get ashes on our foreheads in front of the entire class and anyone who opted out were asked to explain to the priest why. Was very fun when my group of friends had to explain – “I’m an Atheist” “I’m Jewish” “I’m Gay” “I’m a Lesbian” “I’m an Atheist”.
The only time we talked about the other religions in the world was when we had to draw the symbols of the other religions, but of course were told to put Christianity in the centre of the page.
55 years ago Church of Ireland pupils who attended my secondary opted out of religion classes and did their homework. So what’s new.
@Aine O Connor: Letting them do their homework during the religion lesson is not the answer. It shouldn’t seem like a child is being rewarded or punished for not doing religion. No reason why alternative educational activities can’t be organised for children who opt out
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: Where would they do this…. in the extra classrooms Bruton will provide with the new teachers he will fund??
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin:
The C of I girls in my class were delighted as they had to travel 5 or 6 miles to and from school on their bikes from rural areas. No buses or 4×4 to bring them to school then.
@marg fitzgerald: it’s already being done in the same classroom while teachers are doing religion , the pupils not doing religion are given other work to do .
@marg fitzgerald: Mine do their work in their classroom during the religion lesson.
What about Irish exemption students Too? Awful lot of opting out going on.
@Pajo Mata: How about getting rid of the extra points for taking exams in Irish as well, which basically discriminates against those either not lucky enough to be raised with Irish or not educated in a Gaelscoil…
@John Ryan: yea and the extra points for maths. And of course the mandatory maths and English- should be optional. To be fair to those with dyslexia, Dyspraxia and dyscalculia
@John Ryan: How about getting rid of the extra points students in the East get in English also as most of them have a geographical advantage over students who were raised in Gaeltacht which as we know – 97% of the Gaeltacht is further away from England than the rest of the country being on the western outskirts of the country and all. If someone really wants to learn a language, they will & nothing is ever completely equal. Some students have parents that are teachers or some students have to help out on a family farm before doing their homework meaning they have less energy to give to learning than their urban counterparts, some have only one parent to support them and others have inherited learning disabilities. Some students have French parents giving them an advantage in that subject.
@Pajo Mata: do you know how hard it is to get an Irish exemption at secondary?
@John Ryan: You may be, like the majority, believing false reports about “extra point for Irish”. The reality is that students who learn subject through Irish get 10% of the marks they failed to get in maths and science subjects.
I.e. if I got 72% in Physics I get an added 2.8%. This doesn’t alter the amount of points I would get for that subject.
The system is designed to ensure students who have struggled with Irish in Irish speaking schools (more common than you might think) don’t suffer in the science subjects.
Otherwise they would be at a significant disadvantage.
@Graham: Mmmmm…Very topical. Ask some relevant students what they ” need” to do!
@John Ryan: Lucky to be educated in a Gaelscoil? Lol, that’s funny.
@Margate: care to elaborate?
@Graham: No! Not here…
If you opt out you sit out…. why should you be taught another subject. Opt in stay in and learn like everybody else. Minister what are you thinking. This will only cause trouble.
@Bernie Kenny: “…like everybody else.” The thin end of the conformist, anti-change wedge.
You’re missing the opportunity here Bernie, it’s an option to opt in to another class which might be more beneficial to the child; politics, learning Chinese, computer programming, artificial intelligence, or even a broader theology class including other mythologies / religious beliefs / reasons for superstition etc. / conflicts caused by religion / the good, bad and ugly of religion.
@bopter: “might”? Surely that’s a grammatical error bopter.
My two are in an educate together, they learn about all religions and all cultures, i think this is the way it should be, religion is an after school activity that they can go to if i want but i dont
They can’t provide supervision for the numerous “free classes” every week what hope is there of being taught another subject. All this while thousands of our teachers are on career breaks out in Australia
Better solution; leave religion to the end of the day. Those not taking part can go home, because realistically an alternative subject won’t be provided.
@Liam Byrne: You obviously don’t know about school transport do you?
@marg fitzgerald: You obviously don’t know me.
@marg fitzgerald:
It’s al in the small print. Unworkable.
Where will the teachers come from ??
“School inspectors will ensure students who opt-out of religion classes are taught another subject, says minister” that will be a first – doesn’t happen with any other subject.
Sorry can i juat get clarification. Is it all schools inc. Catholic schools or just educate together and church of ireland?
@epo eire: All schools.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: that has absolutely made my day. Have an opt out child just starting communion year. Best news this year.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: State funded, state owned supposedly multi-denominational ETB schools.
In reality they have been hijacked by the catholic hierarchy and their minions.
Furthermore the state pays over €9 million annually for religious chaplains in ETB schools.
http://www.thejournal.ie/chaplaincy-department-education-2900060-Jul2016/
@Chemical Brothers: girlfriend works in an etb school. the religion teachers enforced a prayer for the end of year ceremony even though the students voted against any reference to religion.
@Chemical Brothers: I’ll have that it’s a heavily multi-ethnic school.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer: The religion teachers need to be handed their P45 or be given the opportunity to re-train as REAL teachers teaching a REAL subject of value to their students & society.
As it currently stands they are just state paid charlatan enforcers of the catholic church.
@epo eire: Primary schools aren’t able to provide “ another subject” in another room – there aren’t enough teachers in primary as is to meet the wide spectrum of abilities and needs of children with SEN. There aren’t spare teachers somewhere in a room sipping coffee and waiting for something to do .And that’s if there were a spare room for them to work in !
If Burton is serious about this , he needs to do more than just send out inspectors , he needs to provide the spaces and the teaching hours .
Considering education is already chronically underfunded , I wouldn’t see that happening any time soon .
@epo eire: it says ETB schools in the article. I presume that doesn’t include Community Schools (note Schools rather than Community Colleges which are run by the ETB) or private schools. List is here https://www.etbi.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ETB-Schools-Contact-Details.pdf
@Bríd Uí Mhaoluala: There’s no reason why a primary teacher can’t organise for children who opt out of religion to engage in alternative educational activities during the religion lesson.
@Lorna McC: No it doesn’t include community schools. I work in one and religion is still mandatory. That’s because they’re technically Catholic. However, the majority are now open to all faiths and tend to teach religion as a subject. In mine they study all religions objectively.
@Bríd Uí Mhaoluala: i dont think anybody thinks there is a bunch of teachers hiding somewhere in the school.Theres a need for proper focus by parents & communities.It is not a fight over who gets a piece of the pie rather than everyone making the pie bigger together.My child should not take anything away from a catholic child and a catholic child should not take anything away from my child.I am garda vetted & volunteer within the community.I have 2 opt out children in the school across the road.I have offered to sit with them & any additional opt out children in an empty room/hall/reading room/hallway & help with their homework or read.I was turned down & told if the children didnt want to remain unsupervised in the class room then i must take them home.There is no bend and no compromise.
We are hearing all of the time that pupils want to opt out of religion classes what are the figures of this we have never been told one way or the other.
@Alan Scott: talk to some teenagers and I’m sure you’ll get a picture of how many want to opt out. The majority that stay do so cos it’s seen as a doss. Religion has no place in school mgmt/authority/patronage and v little in class aside from as a small element of history/CSPE/ etc class
@Graham: I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that religion is a small element of history. It’s a huge part of cultures and societies worldwide and has profoundly shaped civilizations and human history. It can and should be taught objectively like any other subject.
@Dainéil Ó hÍobhair: sit a LC history paper and see how often you delve into any depth on history. Not saying to doesn’t happen but it a comparatively small part of what you’d write during that exam. It shouldn’t be a subject and do you seriously think those currently preaching/teaching it are objective?
Religion and the constant negativity it contributes has no place in society.
Religion class or fairy tales. Both have equal evidence of truth, that evidence being none at all.
Somewhat off but topic but why are there ETBs? They have to follow everything the Dept say so why are they not just Dept schools?
They should bring in driving classes as an option.
Plenty of kids leaving school who are restricted in what jobs they can take due to the crazy cost of insurance for that age category.
@Mill Lane: Seriously? Who is going to fund those driving classes? Parents are hard pushed to meet even the most basic school costs and schools are forced to seek additional money to keep the heat and light going !
@Bríd Uí Mhaoluala:
Who funds driving lessons when the kids take them at 17 or 18 Usually the parents in a lot of cases.
Driving schools would give a nice discount for predictable bulk work that’s garunteed every year so it would be cheaper in the long run compared to taking lessons privately.
Or schools schools could raise their own funds to pay for teachers driving instructor training, more costly at the start but cheaper in the long run.
Not forgetting it would be an optional class to replace religion so nobody is forced into paying money they don’t have
At primary level, religion is allocated 2 and a half hours per week. Don’t know how the government expects another subject to be taught to them during this time.
Just take it out of the schools and let the priests and churches teach religion. Problem solved.
Just to confirm after a bit of research theis DOES NOT cover catholic schools. Of which there are a majority and the main point of such an action.
Oh great another stupid idea. Either keep it or get rid of it, giving kids a choice means chaos.
Have an extra class after school hours. There’s always enough teachers for detention after school so why not kill two birds with one stone. It might even deter children from needing detention for fear of having to listen to religious idiots spouting on
@David Saunders: it’s amazing how our esteemed ed minister has found a voice and a means to deprive pupils of enriching their minds and expanding their knowledge, now that he perceives a waning of the power and influence of the Christian religion in the country.
For a man who has been in positions of power & influence in the country for more years than is good for the country, he suddenly finds his voice when he smells which way the wind is blowing and is prepared to deprive pupils of a rounded education to look good in the eyes of the atheists & opposers who, he thinks are the new policy makers and thought-police. What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffers the loss of his eternal soul??!
How about teach them some civic responsibility…they’re not getting from the parents that’s for sure.
Where has my incomplete comment gone??
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