LAST UPDATE | 29 Jun 2023
RTÉ EXECUTIVES FACED another session of tough questioning at the Oireachtas today.
24 hours after senior officials came before the Oireachtas Media Committee, the Public Accounts Committee heard from RTÉ representatives and officials from the Department of Media.
Public interest remains high after the revelation that RTÉ did not disclose €345,000 worth of payments made to presenter Ryan Tubridy since 2017.
The Taoiseach called for Tubridy and former Director General Dee Forbes, who resigned this week, to come before an Oireachtas committee.
Throughout the afternoon, the Public Accounts Committee heard that RTÉ used the barter account to pay over €130,000 for ten-year IRFU season tickets, while €26,000 of expenditure related to the 2019 Champions League final.
The committee also heard that:
Follow along with The Journal’s liveblog for updates throughout the day.
Good morning. Lauren Boland here.
Senior RTÉ executives are due to appear before a second Oireachtas committee this afternoon after being grilled at the Media Committee yesterday over the undisclosed payments made to presenter Ryan Tubridy to the tune of €345,000.
The Public Accounts Committee will hear from RTÉ representatives and officials from the Department of Media from 1.30pm today.
Here’s what came to light already during yesterday’s four-hour meeting – and what’s still not clear.
NEW: Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has called for Ryan Tubridy and Dee Forbes to come before an Oireachtas Committee.
Speaking to reporters, Varadkar said: “We are trying to get to the bottom of what happened when it comes to these unusual clandestine payments in RTÉ.
“RTÉ executives and board members have come before an Oireachtas committee to answer questions but there are other people who could shine light on this and they include Ryan Tubridy, they include his agents, they include Dee Forbes.
“I still think that they should be willing to come before the committee to answer questions. There are procedures. They will be treated fairly. I think that would be the right thing to do from their part. They may have a story to tell and I think it’s right that they should be allowed to tell their side of the story.”
Dee Forbes had been invited to come before the Oireachtas but a spokesperson said she was unable to attend due to health reasons.
The Taoiseach is in Brussels today for a meeting of the EU Council, where reporters have asked him about the ongoing situation unfurling over RTÉ at home.
“We need transparency, we need to know the facts, and then there needs to be accountability once we know all the facts,” Varadkar said.
On funding, he said that the government needs to fund public service broadcasting but that it’s “not just about RTÉ”.
“I think more and more people appreciate that there is more to public service broadcasting than RTÉ,” he said.
“We’ve suspended our work on the reform of the TV licence but we will need to resume that at a point because public service broadcasting is important. I don’t like the alternative, which is not having properly funded public service broadcasting. But we need a collection mechanism that’s modern, that’s efficient, and also need to make sure that the money is distributed more fairly.”
Over in the Dáil, RTÉ has been raised again during Leaders’ Questions.
People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd Barrett expressed strongly his discontent with RTÉ and claimed that the scandal “very seriously jeopardises” the future of the broadcaster.
Tense exchanges were seen between Boyd Barrett and Ceann Comhairle Seán Ó’Fearghaíl.
Earlier this morning, PAC chairperson Brian Stanley said that there are still questions that must be answered.
“There’s an awful lot of information yet to be dug into and to be uncovered,” Stanley said, speaking to RTÉ Radio One’s Morning Ireland.
He said suggestions that the fault lay entirely with former Director General Dee Forbes were “not credible”.
NEW: Incoming host of The Late Late Show Patrick Kielty will receive a salary of €250,000.
The new host, who was selected to replace Tubridy after he announced his resignation in March, has released a statement about his deal with RTÉ.
“I’m pleased to finally be able to share that I’ve signed a three-season deal to host The Late Late Show beginning this September,” Kielty said.
“I’m being paid €250,000 per 30 show season. If additional shows are requested by RTÉ, they’ll be paid on a pro-rata basis.
“I’m also receiving a one-off payment of €20,000 to cover the pre-production and rehearsals from now to September.
“The contract allows me to submit flight and accommodation expenses, but I’ve waived this. I’ve made it clear to RTE that I will be covering my own flights and accommodation costs.
“I’ve also asked RTE to carbon offset my flights.
“I genuinely hope this helps clarify things going forward. I can’t wait to get started.”
The meeting of the Public Accounts Committee is due to commence in the next few minutes. It should be streamed on the Oireachtas website, though it was unavailable at times yesterday during the Media committee – let’s see if it holds up today.
Here’s a photo of the RTÉ Board’s Chair Siún Ní Raghallaigh and the board’s staff representative Robert Shortt on their way to the committee hearing.
PAC chairperson Brian Stanley is opening proceedings.
He sends well wishes to former Director General Dee Forbes, whose spokesperson said she could not attend for health reasons, and confirms the committee still wishes to hear from her.
Chair of the RTÉ Board Siún Ní Raghallaigh is making her opening statement. She says RTÉ knows it fell “far short” of expectations in what amounts to an “egregious breach of trust with the public, for which we apologise”.
She says she is aware of the PAC’s remit in holding public bodies accountable.
Ní Raghallaigh says RTÉ would also like to see Dee Forbes attend the committee when she is able to do so.
“This crisis has placed RTÉ in a dangerous place. The Board, working with the organisation, will map out a future strategy to bring this organisation to a safer haven, an organisation that delivers the best in public service broadcasting, trusted by the public and employees alike,” Ní Raghallaigh says.
“We need to strike that careful balance in achieving an organisation that can blend the agility needed to provide a public broadcasting service in an ever changing market while also having the controls and governance standards of an entity funded by the tax payer.
“Finally, can I say something about the use of the word ‘talent’. Words matter and the term, as it is currently used, reinforces a ‘them and us’ culture in RTÉ. It implies some have greater worth than others. The first step in cultural change is to consign this term to the dustbin.
“I wish to restate the fact that over 1800 people work for RTÉ and I apologise to each and every one of them for the distress they are experiencing.”
Interim Deputy Director General Adrian Lynch is second to offer an opening statement.
He says that “incomplete” sharing of information meant individual senior executive members either did not have access to information or had information withheld from them, and that the Board failed to act as a collective and ensure good governance. He says there was an “overreliance” on the “prerogative” of the Director General.
Lynch says that incoming Director General Kevin Bakhurst intends to carry out a complete reconstitution of RTÉ’s executive board.
Secretary General of the Government’s Department of Media Katherine Licken, outlines the broader external review that is now being commissioned into RTÉ.
Licken says the review will consider whether RTÉ’s governance framework is fit for purpose and aligned with best practice. It will also look at its organisational culture and the impact of that culture on levels of trust and communication.
Fianna Fáil TD James O’Connor calls for further transparency with the public about payments in RTÉ, including about the salaries of the broadcaster’s top 100 earners.
Ní Raghallaigh says this will happen “as soon as practically possible”
Interim Deputy Director General Adrian Lynch says the undisclosed payments should have been declared at the time.
O’Connor presses Lynch on who was aware of the situation regarding Tubridy’s contract, the payments, and the agreement with Renault that RTÉ would underwrite its sponsorship.
“The Director General was aware because she had given this undertaking to NK Management [Tubridy's agent] that if the sponsorship deal did not happen, RTÉ would pay the bill,” Lynch says.
O’Connor calls for Ryan Tubridy and his agent to appear before the committee, much like the Taoiseach sought earlier today.
The next TD asking questions is Imelda Munster of Sinn Féin. She is quizzing Chief Financial Officer Richard Collins about the labelling of payments worth €75,000 as consultancy fees.
Collins says that the Director General, Dee Forbes, told him the fees were for consultancy services provided by Tubridy’s agent, Noel Kelly during the pandemic.
Munster asks whether he questioned that explanation and asks him whether he was properly conducting his job.
Collins says that the Director General gave what appeared to be a “plausible” explanation.
Commercial Director Geraldine O’Leary says she cannot remember whether it was Dee Forbes or Noel Kelly who put forward the label of consultancy fees.
Director of Legal Affairs Paula Mullooley accepts the labelling was “highly inappropriate”.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh TD says there has been “huge damage done” to working relationships and morale within RTÉ.
Hello – Jane Moore here. Welcome to another afternoon of questions and answers.
I’ll be bringing you all of the updates from the Public Accounts Committee as RTÉ representatives are grilled for a second day over the undisclosed payments to Ryan Tubridy.
The chairwoman of the board of RTÉ’s audit and risk committee said it sought the resignation of former director general Dee Forbes based on the findings of a report into payments to Ryan Tubridy by Grant Thornton.
Anne O’Leary said she thought the report was “significantly serious enough” to ask for her resignation.
“She decided not to reply to our letter on that. So, we then put her on suspension following a HR disciplinary approach.”
Additionally, RTÉ’s commercial director Geraldine O’Leary told the committee that car company Renault was not aware the broadcaster had underwritten payments to Tubridy that were the subject of a tripartite commercial agreement.
“Not only were Renault not aware, but neither was I,” O’Leary said.
RTÉ’s head of commercial Geraldine O’Leary told the committee that there was no credit card connected to the barter account.
Chief financial officer Richard Collins says that payments are made out of the barter account by giving instruction to the barter company that operates the account.
Fianna Fáil TD Colm Burke asks how much money has gone through the barter account in the last ten years.
Collins says between €1 million and €1.5 million.
Fianna Fáil TD Cormac Devlin begins by welcoming “the change in tone from RTÉ here today and the greater emphasis on the deceptive nature” of the payments to Ryan Tubridy.
He says that “morale is through the floor” at RTÉ.
The issue of cars being given to RTÉ presenters is raised again to the representatives. The matter was also discussed yesterday.
Interim deputy director general Adrian Lynch says he knows of one staff member, a contractor, who has been given a car as part of a commercial relationship outside of their RTÉ contract.
Lynch said yesterday that he was confident that no RTÉ journalist has a deal with a car brand.
Sinn Féin TD John Brady asks if Siún Ní Raghallaigh’s description of the undisclosed payments as an “act designed to deceive” is shared by the board and the executive.
The committee is told that the board shares this view.
There is a rather tense exchange as John Brady asks chief financial officer Richard Collins what his salary is.
Collins says: “I think that’s a private matter.”
This causes some brief ructions from the rest of the committee before committee chair Brian Stanley tells Collins that he expects him to answer the question.
There is a long pause before Collins says: “I don’t know my exact salary off the top of my head.”
This answer prompts more outcry from members.
After another intervention from Stanley, Collins tells the committee that he believes his salary is around €200,000 plus a car allowance of €25,000.
Speaking earlier, Richard Collins said he could “never be 100% certain” there are no other payments to other individuals which are similar to arrangements which were made for Ryan Tubridy.
However, he added: “We have very good control systems within RTÉ outside of this barter account.”
On transactions relating to Tubridy, Collins said he was given “comfort” in the fact credit notes in the organisation’s barter account, which were labelled as consultancy fees, had been signed off by Dee Forbes.
Asked if he should have made sure he understood what the credit note was for, he said: “The credit note was approved by the director general. From a control point of view, I was happy.”
Fine Gael TD Colm Burke described the organisation’s barter account as a “slush fund”.
After a five-minute break, Independent TD Verona Murphy begins the second half of questioning by telling the committee that she has never seen “more obvious scapegoating” than from RTÉ’s executives.
She says the decision to take Ryan Tubridy off air was wrong, that he has done nothing wrong and that it has damaged his reputation.
“It’s as plain as a pike’s staff to any person with a modicum of common sense that this act will cost RTÉ and of course the taxpayer far more to Ryan Tubridy than the €150,000 that we’re talking about, that was due anyway.”
She says the decision to take Tubridy off air has exposed RTÉ to a massive bill in compensation.
Verona Murphy asks Adrian Lynch if he will resign for the editorial decision he took to take Ryan Tubridy off air while the controversy continues.
After saying that that would be a matter for the incoming director general Kevin Bakhurst, Lynch eventually says that he will not resign over the decision to take Tubridy off air.
“Well then talk is cheap” is Murphy’s response.
Fine Gael TD Alan Dillon asks Richard Collins whether the €75,000 payments were payments to Ryan Tubridy and Renault.
Collins agrees that they were, but Geraldine O’Leary interjects to say that the payments had nothing to do with Renault.
Collins says there were “deceitful practices at play” but says they have been told that there is no fraud involved. He says that it is concealment or deception.
“Would you not consider that fraud?” Dillon asks.
Collins says it is his own opinion that maybe the taxpayer was defrauded.
Alan Dillon now asks the representatives what the barter account was used for.
Geraldine O’Leary says the account was used to pay for clients to go to the Rugby World Cup. She says she can’t name who they are without their permission.
The committee hears that €138,000 was spent on ten-year IRFU season tickets, while €26,000 related to the 2019 Champions League final.
“Slush fund” is shouted by one of the committee members off-camera.
Siún Ní Raghallaigh says the expenditure is “outrageous” and that it should go through the procurement system. She believes this has now been put in place.
Labour’s Alan Kelly begins his time by asking the representatives for a list of things by next Thursday. This includes:
Speaking to Siún Ní Raghallaigh in relation to her not informing Minister Catherine Martin about her asking Dee Forbes to resign, Alan Kelly says that if he was the Minister in question and she neglected to tell him the same information, “you wouldn’t be in the position very long.”
“I don’t think any Minister would put up with that and I don’t think this Minister will either. That is something you would have to tell the Minister,” he says.
He asks the former chair of the RTÉ board Moya Doherty if she would have told the Minister of the request for Forbes’ resignation.
“Yes,” Doherty replies.
Alan Kelly asks whether any of the RTÉ representatives are aware of anyone who may have spoken to Ryan Tubridy about “what was coming down the line” in terms of the payments controversy.
None of the representatives say they are aware of anyone.
The committee hears that the Microsoft Teams call where the verbal agreement to underwrite the deal between Ryan Tubridy and Renault was not recorded.
There was a note of the call taken by the lawyer who was present.
Head of legal Paula Mullooly says it is covered by privilege when asked to provide it.
Here is the intense exchange relating to Richard Collins’ salary that happened earlier on this afternoon.
"Chief Financial Officer of RTÉ can't tell us what his pay is. I'm supposed to buy that?"
— TheJournal.ie (@thejournal_ie) June 29, 2023
RTÉ CFO Richard Collins told the Oireachtas PAC his salary was a "private matter" and that he didn't know his exact salary before giving an estimate of €200,000 plus car allowance. pic.twitter.com/pIxcdMXNas
RTÉ head of legal Paula Mullooly said there is “a number of active and threatened” litigation in relation to the issues around RTÉ’s guarantee to underwrite commercial payments to Ryan Tubridy.
After telling the committee that the note of the Teams call taken by the lawyer who was present was covered by legal professional privilege, she said: “I have an issue in the context of this matter where there is a number of active and threatened litigation, and I need to protect the legal professional privilege in respect of this.”
When asked again for the note by the chair, Mullooly said she did not believe she was in a position to waive the legal privilege.
“I’m happy to answer questions as best I can, within the confines of dealing with that legal privilege, but there are very significant legal issues around this.
“In fairness, I had anticipated that this question would arise, I sought external legal advice on it last night and I’ve had strong legal advice on it.”
The committee was also told by Adrian Lynch that incoming Late Late Show host Patrick Kielty waived €50,000 of expenses that were included in the original draft of his contract.
Kielty will be paid €250,000 per season and €20,000 in pre-production costs.
James O’Connor is back to answer follow-up questions. He says he thinks the meeting has taken “a very dark turn”.
He asks former chair Moya Doherty to elaborate on her description of the barter account as a “slush fund”. She says a colleague looked up the definition of a barter fund in the dictionary.
She says she was not aware of the existence of the barter fund which was outside of the financial department and “therefore not reported to us as a board during our monthly meetings and did not exist in the monthly management account”.
She says that is “staggering and absolutely shocking”.
Robert Shortt, RTÉ economics correspondent and staff representative on the broadcaster’s board, says he was shocked to hear about it, but accepts that barter accounts are something that is widely used.
James O’Connor asks if ordinary staff were familiar with the “amount of perks associated with this job”, referring to what the committee heard earlier in relation to the barter account being used for IRFU tickets and the Champions League.
Shortt says the joke for editorial staff in RTÉ is that “the RTÉ Guide is the perk”, before adding that they might not even get the Christmas RTÉ Guide.
RTÉ News’ education correspondent and chair of the NUJ Broadcasting Branch Emma O’Kelly agrees with her colleague Robert Shortt about the RTÉ Guide.
“In RTÉ the joke is that the RTÉ Guide is the perk” says staff member Robert Short to PAC. He is so right. We ordinary staff jokingly used to call the bumper Christmas edition the ‘company car’ - IF we managed to get our hands on a very rare free copy.
— emma o kelly (@emma_okelly) June 29, 2023
John Brady asks chief financial officer Richard Collins if he will make a complaint to Gardaí in relation to his earlier comment where he stated that it was his own opinion that taxpayers may have been defrauded.
Collins says that he will have to take advice on it.
Verona Murphy asks Robert Shortt if he believes that he will get accountability from the process.
He says he does.
“I fully accept that it’s extremely frustrating. It’s an ugly process. It’s a process that is also dragging the organisation through enormous damage reputationally in terms of staff morale. But if I didn’t believe that we were going to get accountability, I wouldn’t be engaged in it,” he says.
He says that it’s not for him to say what accountability will look like. “There’s a process in place. We’re getting there.”
Alan Dillon asks Siún Ní Raghallaigh if she believes her position as chair of the RTÉ board is still tenable.
“I believe so,” she says, adding that she did what her job is and followed a process.
Alan Kelly is trying to establish what contract Ryan Tubridy is currently under.
“Every government employee has to be under a contract,” he says.
RTÉ’s legal director Paula Mullooly says she does not believe Tubridy has a written contract at the moment to present his radio programme.
“There may be an oral agreement as to what he’s being paid,” she says.
Adrian Lynch confirmed yesterday that Tubridy is still being paid while he is off-air.
Alan Kelly touches on Adrian Lynch’s comments that Kevin Bakhurst intends to carry out a complete reconstitution of RTÉ’s executive board.
“What does that actually mean?” Kelly asks.
“I’d say number one, the composition of the people who are on the exec board, and number two, in terms of the culture and working practices of the exec board,” Lynch responds.
Kelly asks him if he thinks there will be changes on the executive board.
Lynch says that is up to the incoming director general.
Brian Stanley has concluded the meeting by outlining to the representatives the list of documents that the committee has asked for throughout the course of the afternoon – which includes a copy of Ryan Tubridy’s previous five-year contract and a copy of the arrangement with the barter company.
“We’d ask you to try and comply with that as quickly as possible. We know some of it will be laborious enough to put together, but I think it is really important that we get it as soon as possible,” he said.
He thanked the witnesses for their attendance and adjourned the meeting of the Public Accounts Committee until next Thursday morning.
Some new revelations on Prime Time this evening: Dee Forbes initially said that the invoices labelled as “consultancy fees” were work done for RTÉ by Noel Kelly, who represents Ryan Tubridy and a number of RTÉ figures.
RTÉ Investigates has reported that when Forbes was first asked about invoices labelled as consultancy fees, she said they were bills from Kelly at a rate of €1,200 per hour.
Forbes subsequently revised her explanation, according to RTÉ Investigates.
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