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ONE OF THE ironies of the last Seanad election in 2011 was the complaint that the university seats were undemocratic.
It could be argued they are actually the most democratic part of the current electoral system since they are the only ones neither elected nor selected by politicians. TDs, senators and councillors elect 43 under the vocational panel system while eleven are Taoiseach’s nominees.
So, how did we arrive at this system?
The original Senate was formed with the aim of easing unionists’ fears by providing ‘alternative’ representation and was selected partly by President of the Executive Council WT Cosgrave and partly by the Dáil. Popular election of one quarter of senators every three years under a proportional representation, single constituency system was scrapped after the 1925 election proved a debacle.
Instead, senators and TDs nominated candidates who TDs in turn elected senators. Though it had no power of absolute veto, it could delay ‘Money Bills’ by 21 days, refer other bills back to the Dáil and delay non-Money Bills from becoming law for nine months (extended to twenty months post-1925).
This played havoc with the legislative programme of Eamon de Valera’s new Fianna Fáil government of the early 1930s. As measures such as the Removal of Oath Bill and a Bill banning the ‘Blueshirt’ movement were frustrated, government anger grew at such opposition from those not popularly elected. Accordingly, the Senate was then abolished by 1936.
The formulation of a new Constitution the following year saw the place of a senate debated again with much of the same arguments raised then as now. De Valera did not appear receptive to any upper house with the exception of a purely revisory body to correct flaws in legislation.
However, a Commission was appointed and a ‘vocationalist’ senate based in part on the recommendations of one of the minority reports emerged.
This meant that a certain number of seats would be filled using vocational panels based on different areas of the economy. Backed by many theorists and public figures, vocationalism was a variant of the ‘Corporate State’ model of forming councils with equal representation of employers and workers for each sector of the economy.
Depending on the theorist, the place of party politics was not always clear. In this case though, its potential was limited by an electorate of TDs and a small number of local politicians.
It is perhaps ironic that two of the advocates of the minority report Frank MacDermot and Sir John Keane disapproved of a Dáil electorate for vocational panels. Nevertheless, this compromise with vocational and political ideas was almost exactly what happened with a limited number of councillors added.
For one senior Fianna Fáil politician, this was a major issue from the start. Seán McEntee wrote to de Valera arguing ‘the defects inherent in such a system are obvious’. He suggested at least extending the franchise to all local politicians under constituencies of rural areas, small urban areas and larger urban areas. Otherwise, he feared the proposed senate could even be defeated in the Dáil.
Such a scenario was not to occur however and this formula has varied little to the present day with all county councilors and senators added to the initial electorate amid claims of corruption though only one allegation was ever proved in court.
Article 19 of the Constitution allows for direct election by ‘vocational’ bodies but was never been invoked while difficulties over the vocational authorities involved persisted especially in the early years.
Quirks in the system seem inevitable when few seemed to respect the chamber’s vocational credentials from the beginning. Department of the Taoiseach files show Fianna Fáil supporters writing to de Valera, on their own or others’ behalf feeling that service to the party justified appointment as one of the Taoiseach’s nominees.
However, it must be stated that de Valera resisted all these appeals and did nominate some senators like MacDermot and Keane who were not political allies. As has been alluded to elsewhere, the House has been home to many high-profile figures.
Despite the electorate of politicians, house exchanges in the early years also revealed some behaviour on vocational lines. However, political scientist Basil Chubb felt any truly vocational members owed their election to political friendship rather than vocational experience or expertise.
Of course, one could ask if, for example, a trade unionist elected on the Labour Panel is also a member of the Labour Party and he/she speaks mostly on labour issues, is he/she behaving vocationally or party politically?
Such confusion has probably ceased to be even controversial though and much current debate depends on preference for a strong senate, a mere revisory body or whether one feels there is simply no need for one at all.
In any case, with the Yes side seeking abolition and proponents for a No vote arguing for reform, it appears that the curious case of this somewhat vocational Seanad is one that may soon be consigned to history.
Martin O’Donoghue is an Irish Research Council Postgraduate Scholar at NUI Galway. He completed an M.A. dissertation on ‘Aspects of the Reconstituted Seanad: Its Origins, Membership and Contribution (1938-48)’.
Don’t you just love how this and previous Government’s , pick and choose which things to side with the EU and which to ignore. Our Politicians really have become world class at being devious.
@DMurph: just
@DMurph: hmmm. So you are saying this government and previous ones have only accepted ones that beneficial to Ireland?
@Stephen Coveney: beneficial to themselves and their agenda. Pretty much the opposite of what’s beneficial to Ireland
@DMurph: and yet, when the government implements EU Directives in full, they are accused of being puppets and lap dogs. Can’t win.
Public Service Card?
@Pauliebhoy: no, thanks. Already have one.
Doesn’t the EU know who they are dealing with? This is the Irish Government. They don’t pay fines, they are not accountable when they do something wrong, everybody knows that. How dare the EU even suggesting such a thing!
“With no clarity as to which takes precedence here, Irish or EU law, you can expect the courts to be busy.”
EU law has supremacy over Irish law. The law Facebook and other companies have to prepare for is EU law. No uncertainty.
@Untriggered Non-Snowflake:
Third Amendment to the Constitution:
The State may become a member of the European Coal and Steel Community (established by Treaty signed at Paris on the 18th day of April, 1951), the European Economic Community (established by Treaty signed at Rome on the 25th day of March, 1957) and the European Atomic Energy Community (established by Treaty signed at Rome on the 25th day of March, 1957). No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State necessitated by the obligations of membership of the Communities or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the Communities, or institutions thereof, from having the force of law in the State.
@Untriggered Non-Snowflake:
The Lisbon Treaty:
17. Declaration concerning primacy
The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law.
So while I would not label this article “fake news” as that would require a deliberate attempt to misinform, I would say that this article is basically nonsense.
@Untriggered Non-Snowflake: when you see the phrase “under the conditions laid down” it means there are definitely exceptions, it’s always a good idea to check what they are.
@N:
Before we joined the European Community, there was a clear hierarchy of law in Ireland. Constitutional Law was supreme. Any Act passed by the Oireachtas which was repugnant to the Constitution would be overturned. For example, if the government had decided to pass a piece of legislation to say that Oireachtas legislation would supersede the Constitution, it would be overturned. The government can’t simply decide when the Constitution applies and when it doesn’t.
Amendment 3 to the Constitution explicitly states that once we joined the European Communities nothing in the provisions of the Constitution would inhibit laws passed by the Communities. In essence, the Constitution relinquishes supremacy to the Communities.
The only real issue in the case of Ireland is when EU Treaties undergo substantial revisions and changes. As the famous Crotty case found, this would be repugnant to the Constitution and would require a new referendum as it would mean a new transfer of powers from Ireland to the EU.
As J.Hederman said in that case “The State’s organs cannot contract to exercise in a particular procedure their policy-making roles or in any way to fetter powers bestowed unfettered by the Constitution. They are the guardians of these powers, not the disposers of them.” Basically, the people decide who to dispose power to.
@Dave O Keeffe:
I know what they are Dave.
An EU regulation is both directly applicable and has direct effect (both horizontal and vertical) in all Member States. Directly applicable simply means that an EU regulation becomes Member State law in its entirety. The Member State is actually required to do nothing by way of legislation for an EU regulation to become the nation’s law.
Direct effect(both horizontal and vertical) simply means that the rights and duties conferred by the law allow people to bring cases against State bodies(horizontal) or against other persons(vertical) to ensure their rights are upheld. Under our law, a company is recognised as a person under the law. So my point stands. Facebook and other companies must follow EU law in this case. No uncertainty.
The interesting thing is that the Journal article actually points out that EU regulations are mandatory. Then it goes on to argue it is unclear which law, Irish or EU, takes precedence in this case. It is clear to me the author does not really understand what an EU Regulation is or the basic.idea of EU law primacy in Ireland.
That is first year “Introduction to Law” stuff…
The author is right to say that Data Protection is an “marque” issue with countries such as Germany, Austria,and France. And this is why in the European Law Framework, it becomes a marque issue for all nations of the EU.
The reason it is important arises from World War 2 and the Holocaust. Lack of privacy and data protection was a primary reason to how the Nazi party in Germany could so easily find and round up Jewish people across Europe. Data Protection Law in Europe is framed in a way to ensure that something like this can never be done on that scale again. People should take Data Protection very seriously.
I’ve being saying for a while now that the PSC, the biometric national id card by the back door contravenes EU law and regulation on private and personal data protection. I’ve being warning that massive fines are there for breaches of those laws and regulations. Now it looks like those fines are to be doubled. Some here have rubbished me, but the truth is out now.
This is all about the PSC and the government’s intentions for it’s use. Not once has the government informed people what their rights are re the data that is and will be held on the cards and the data base it will use. The government try and pass this PSC off as the means to stop SW fraud. It’s purpose is far beyond that. It will place every Irish citizen under invasive and intrusive surveillance, control.
The GDPR will scupper the government’s intentions. So while it’s hastily trying to protect itself from the EU, it won’t protect it’s citizens.
For a long time now the government has played fast and loose with people’s data. Data protection is treated in a very cavalier manner by those who have access to it. Shared around willy nilly, even sold at times to private companies.
Your private and personal data belongs to you. You own it. The government can only collect it and use it for specific purposes. You are entitled to informed to what purpose it is wanted and used. It cannot be shared around any government depts, public bodies, without your express permission. It certainly cannot be shared with utilities, quangoes, banks, or other commercial interests.
You have never been informed as to what your rights are. Ever as yourself why.
@Dave Doyle: How did Irish Water, a semi private company, get my name and address to send me a bill? If that doesn’t worry you then nothing will
@Dave Doyle: Well the GDPR allows each member state to decide whether public bodies can be fined for GDPR and it seems that if the current draft of the Bill is enacted governmental bodies will escape fines.
@Sideshow Brendan: Irish Water collected much of that information from local authorities, who were previously responsible for water in Ireland.
So the collection and processing of names, addresses was lawful.
However the collection of PPSNs, which were originally being requested by Irish Water, was deemed to be excessive for the purpose of processing, and therefore Irish water stopped collecting that information.
@Thn: to give my details to a semi private company is legal? I never gave permission. Who asked me? This is a total theft of private data
@Sideshow Brendan: Permission is just one of the lawful grounds for the processing of personal data, so your permission is not required.
In order for Irish Water to operate it requires personal data on its customers.
@Sideshow Brendan: it was in the legislation. Passed by the Dail. Look it up.
Full disclosure and transparency is only a virtue when you have nothing to hide!
VRT
I said the PSC was going to be a GDPR headache on posts before…this just proves that point. What the Gov are claiming the card is for and what they intend to do with those cards are two different things and just like their refusal to enshrine Irish Water in law as a public entity the PSC is all about a scheme they are concocting for a quick euro. The cross department stuff alone will be GDPR fines as they are not meant to do that (but sure when you say central database the idea “cannot work”). Let’s not forget the number of times a suitcase was left on a train with patient details. The logic behind looking to be exempt isnt purely based on money…it is because the historical track record is a disaster already.
@Derek Power: Well the legality of the PSC is questionable under the current Data protection regime anyway.
Data controllers must have a legitimate basis to process personal data in order to make it lawful.
The stated purpose of the PSC initially was cut out fraud in Social Welfare. This in my view is legitimate and is arguably carried out on public service grounds.
However the runs afoul of the DP acts in a number of ways, including for example:-
- people aren’t given enough info. about why, how and where data is processed, including regarding security measures applied;
- while using this card where someone is in receipt of payments in arguably justified, requiring a person to have one to apply for a passport or in order to sit the driver theory test is unnecessary in my view.
@Thn: Exactly. Using it to combat fraud is fine…but why do we hear of an American company outside Ireland being involved in the info storing. Even if that is tinfoil hat stuff, making it “not mandatory, but compulsory” for things like sitting your driving test screams of a Gov intent on getting the system they want and forgetting that some people will work their entire life and never recieve welfare payments…thus making this card something a lot of the population would never even need. GDPR is now just showing that our shower of “leaders” will forever think in the local scale only and have now been caught out again by an educated electorate. The problem with modern technology…doesnt take weeks for info to get from one side of the island to the other now.
@Derek Power: storing the data outside of the EU is an non issue provided that the adequate safeguards have been put in place. Under the GDPR, the right to information requires data controllers (in this case the Gov.) to provide (amongst other things) details of these adequate safeguards and information on where a copy of such safeguards can be obtained. (Interesting guidance has been published on this point by article 29 working party).
Not to be seen as defending the way in which the PSC has been implemented, Regina Doherty herself has admitted that that phrase was stupid – her word!
Will that also effect journalism and breaking news stories and exclusives about corruption???
The GDPR explicitly allows some wriggle room for member states to decide how to impose fines. Personally I think the idea of the DPC (a state body) imposing a fine on another state body would be an exercise in pointlessness.
Simply a matter of moving public funds around between departments.
That said it’s vital that state bodies are held to task in a transparent, public manner for breaches of GDPR, which means regular and systematic oversight and audits by the DPC.
It must be remembered that even if state bodies can’t be fined by the state, data subjects will be able to bring direct actions against each data controller for damage caused as a result of a data breach.
Very good article. Disappointing that the Government is adopting this approach. Being led by ayatollah civil servants in cahoots with American multinationals??? General impression is that the Government is on the wrong side of history when it comes to digital.
Nothing to see here.Just a bunch of corrupt politicians trying to cover their arses at the public’s expense.Wait who voted them in?
The UK should have just exempted themselves from the common travel and freedom of movement part of the EU rules to avoid Brexit then.
This is worrying! Most private sector companies have put measures in place. The public sector needs to be guided on this! It’s happening in may!
@Roisin Walsh: Most private sector companies don’t have guidelines in place actually.
FFS, more fupping EU rules!!!
@Stephen Winterson:
Won’t be long before we lose our Ivory Coast flag also
@Ben Guy: The GDPR is simply updating a 1995 directive that has been in place in Ireland since 2003.
The GDPR requires companies who collect personal data to accord to a higher standard of data protection.
People are also being afforded new rights. This is actually a good think for every joe soap
@Thn:
Why are you telling me?
@Ben Guy: because I’m trying to declare my undying love for you.
Or else I just accidentally clicked reply to your comment instead of the one above. You decide baby
@Thn:
Anything could happen if you’re a good looker
@Ben Guy: meet me at the top of leeson street tonight at 10.
I’ll be the guy in fishnets and the I heart Ben guy t-shirt
Music,love and romance……..there may be trouble ahead…..kerching! I hear the geasy till.
Will not know anything until its law, then things will be noticed as usual?
What’s with the Russian/English keyboard under the padlock? Is this pertinent to the question?
@Ashley Brown: It’s a Latin/Cyrillic keyboard. Cyrillic is used in mainly Slavic speaking countries, not just Russia.
For once they have exercised a bit of foresight and have seen the flood of complaints and the sh*t storm incoming due to the introduction of the PSC and are clearly washing their hands of it in advance…. “we must fall in line with the EU”…….pure bollix!!!
No clear idea, from this article, what the government is doing. Waffle.
@Nick Caffrey: Because the government won’t come out and say where this GDPR will effect it most.
@Dave Doyle: GDPR is a confusing nightmare. Well intentioned but poorly drafted. There are amendments inserted by the European Parliament and nobody really knows the implications of the amendments. It’s a messy legalistic compromise.
As usual the Journal has posted a clickbait article. As of January 26 EU states including Ireland are not ready for GDPR. One would imagine from the article that is it only Ireland. And that’s because GDPR is immensely legalistic and complex. Most states especially small states are overwhelmed by the process.
But it is easier to damn the politicians and civil servants than admit that GDPR poses immense challenges for most States and companies not least because of its complexity and legal uncertainly.
A hypothetical, if it turns out the public services card does in fact breach data protection standards then a body could complain the Irish government to the EU for breaches under data protection legislation that itself failed to implement.
I salute anyone with the stones to file that lawsuit!!
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