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MARTIN McGUINNESS HAS been accused of lying about his past by the son of an IRA victim, who confronted him today in Athlone.
Holding a picture of his father Patrick – who was killed in a 1983 shootout with the Provisional IRA – David Kelly accosted the presidential candidate as he canvassed the streets of the town.
After introducing himself, he said he believed McGuinness knew the identity of his father’s killers and called on him to name them. He then said that McGuinness was on the IRA’s Army Council at the time of the killing, in the incident captured in RTÉ News footage.
When McGuinness denied this, Mr Kelly replied “You’re a liar.” McGuinness told Mr Kelly “My sympathy is entirely with you,” but added: “This is in the past.”
Private Patrick Kelly, 35, was killed along with garda trainee Gary Sheehan near Ballinamore, Co Leitrim during an attempt to rescue supermarket boss Don Tidey who was being held by the IRA. Nobody has ever been convicted over the killing.
Mr Tidey was released after the incident.
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Martin McGuinness has a murky past.
He will also have a murky future as I’m sure that more and more relatives of those who were killed or ‘disappeared’ will continue to jump out at every opportunity to ask for justice.
And who can blame them?
Don’t vote for him. He would just bring the office of President into disrepute.
I don’t suppose you had any problem with Nelson Mandela, who also had what you might term a “murky past” becoming South Africa’s president?
How dare Martin McG tell this man it is in the past, it is his and many more who have lost love ones by the IRA present and future. Let’s hope the people of Ireland show Sinn Fein until they admit to all the wrong doings they have been involved in and apologise that the people of Ireland can never move on completely.
What wrong doings have Sinn Fein been involved in ? Can you list some please ?
@Paul – their unhesitating support of the IRA, who murdered over 1700 people, many of them Irish.
The Shinners seem awfully quite on this one
Quite?? Quite what?
quite quiet
Sinn fein fans are on here saying we should all forget and forgive what happened in the troubles. Yet when the supporters of unionist people killed during the troubles had there march in Dublin it was sinn fein at the forefront of the protest stopping them marching. Double standards anyone.
You mean the Love Ulster march , led by catholic killers ? UVF and UDA personnel. Get a grip Cormac. I’m wondering did you go to Trinity..
no sinn fein protest and march was organised by willie frazer a loyalist thug cop on cormac
Never said forgive and forget in my life, let alone this thread.
Ha. Your having a laugh. If sinn feinn can march in Dublin why couldn the love ulster parade.
And no didn go to trinity
Cormac Sinn Fein had nothing to do with causing the trouble during the Love Ulster march. Even the the Irish Independent http://tiny.cc/2b25l reported “To be fair, there was no evidence of Sinn Fein choreographing the rioting and many stories of their more responsible people trying to stop the sectarian street fighting” It was a bunch of drunken thugs that probably don’t even know where NI is!
As for that march the Shinners were against it but decided to not to make a huge issue of it because it was led by Willie Frazer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Frazer a sectarian bigot, Paisley supporter and an associate of loyalist paramilitaries. By letting this nut job parade down the main street of the Capital of the Republic it would have shown SF in a favourable light and would have worked to their advantage. It was not in their best interest to cause trouble.
But hey don’t let facts and reality get in the way of your clearly ill informed comments. Maybe you and Willie Frazer should get together sometime, I’m sure the 2 of ye would have a lot in common!
where does it say on my post that sinn fein had anything to do with the rioting. sinn fein had a protest before the love ulster march was due to begin. im as much against willlie frazier and his ilk as i am against martin mcg.
“sinn fein at the forefront of the protest stopping them marching” Sinn Fein were not there to my knowledge, it was Republican Sinn Fein who held a protest and even they didn’t get involved. It wasn’t a protest that stopped them marching it was a full scale riot. Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams there was no justification for the rioting. “Sinn Fein had appealed to people to ignore this loyalist parade and not to be provoked by it. Our view was that it should not be opposed in any way and we made that clear”. You might not have said in so many words that SF had anything to do with the rioting but it certainly seemed that way.
didn mean to imply anything and im sorry if you read it like that. but i did say protesting and not rioting. couldn make it more clear than that.
Why does he continue to say forget the past while he has been focussing on "800 years" his entire political career?
I think you’ll find discrimination and brutality towards Catholics has been a lot more recent than 800 years ago. His work along with his party’s has gone a hell of a long way to establishing the peace and equality that exists in the north now.
This man is just one of over 1700 people M mc G would love us all to forget about , but this man had to live a life without his father . And Martin gets a pat on the back for sorting out a problem he caused. I’m sure the mans father would be proud of his son for asking the man who knows who killed his dad . Let’s not forget a true Irish hero , I’m sure Don Tidey’s family wont forget that this man gave up his life for his country R.I.P
mmg must be some man to cause a problem that started before he was born
Well Said Donal, Patrick Kelly gave his life for the real cause of Irish freedom, our freedom from subversive terrorists who time and again tried to undermine our democracy, they have caused untold damage to our economy not to mention the murder and torture of innocent Irish men and woman throughout those dark days. Martin Mg has too much blood on his hands and until he and the rest of Sinn Fein start telling the truth, something them are totally incapable of at this time, I for one will never trust them.
Why is Mr McGuinness so willing to forget the past now? Earlier this year he refused to forget the past during the Queens visit to Ireland. I’m not totally sure but I think the mayor of Cashel was denounced (or what ever the shinners do) for meeting the queen and shaking her hand… Now there’s a guy that as a member of Sinn fein he DID forget the past and was forward thinking. Unfortunately I think that gentleman has since died.
I don’t know if I pointed this out to you before DubDon, if I have then sorry for repeating myself. the reason MMG refused to meet the Queen I suspect had more to do with the present than the past. If the Queen’s security forces were not occupying NI and the UK did not claim sovereignty of the Six Counties in the present then I think there would not have been a problem with a royal meeting.
We were discussing MMcG at home tonight, and general consensus (among a strongly anti-SF household) was the he was the most competent, even statesmanlike of the candidates – but that he is stuck in a position where he simply can never tell the truth about the past.
We all have to accept that his contribution to the peace process was immense, and that an island with SF actively and positively engaged in non-violent democracy is infinitely preferable to that of only 20 years ago, but how can you have a President who MUST know the answers to questions like poor David Kelly’s, but can only manage evasions and downright lies?
Maybe I could handle the idea of a President who was once involved in/behind/supportive of a campaign that resulted in the mass-murder of innocents (after all, I can deal with Obama and he issues orders to teams of assassins), if he could just put his hand up to that involvement.
Maybe in 7 years time McGuinness will be in a position to tell the truth, even when it’s bleak and brutal, and maybe then I’ll be happy to give him my vote. But not now.
The forum for that is an immunity granted reconciliation commission which Sinn Fein are arguing for and only last week the British government publicly dismissed. He would merely be incriminating himself and open possible criminal and indeed civil action. Dev didn’t do it.
He cannot tell the truth unless all sides come to the table and admit their truths ala South Africa. He will do more harm than good if he does it any other way.
@Paul, the “What about Dev?” argument holds no water with me, I’m afraid. There’s virtually nothing that man did in any office he held that I would agree with. I think his legacy is at the heart of many of this country’s problems.
I do however take the point about a T&R commission being the way out of this situation – but until that point is reached I don’t think I can see MMcG as a head of state I could support.
good points and clearly made Stephen, though i believe that even if there were a truth and reconciliation similar to SA that those whom were directly involved in / lead much of the atrocities would still be unacceptable to very large section of society.
Thats not the say that other members of SF from the post conflict era could not attain such an office, but for the likes of McGuinness i suspect not.
Of course actually winning the election is probably not SF’s game plan, its increasing their popularity, presence as well as a airing of dirty laundry before the next elections. something they’re doing rather well i might add
The thing is I would consider giving McGuinness a vote because he has done very important work compared to some other candidates if he would just put his hands up and tell the truth. It was painful watching this on the news, I don’t even know the man whose father was killed but if it were me and McGuinness told me it was “in the past” I wouldn’t have been nearly as composed as this man was. Watching him dance around the questions posed by Vincent Browne by saying “some people jump to conclusions” when faced with piles of evidence to suggest he was lying wasn’t nice to watch, and until he comes up with something better than “it’s in the past” I can’t really take him seriously.
Friendly fire or not the situation that brought about the death of a soldier and trainee Guard was brought about by illegal activity by armed members of the IRA. Don’t forget that at the time the URA didn’t recognise the Defence Forces or the Gardai in the state. I think this man asked a hugely relevant question which someone with authority within the IRA prob knew or knows the answer too and Mr McGuinness’s attempt at contrition was miserable. I’m sorry but the past can not be so easily brushed aside when it involves the huge heart ache that this man, his family and thousands of others have suffered.
And what happens if he doesn’t know the answer?
THATS IN THE PAST!!!!!! yes your past Mr McGuinnes, Very much our present and future im afraid, were still waiting for answers as to who murdered our father/ brother/uncle/Son almost 30yrs later where is the justice in that.
The families of the Dublin and Monaghan outrage too !
"dont vote for him" i think you will find we live in a democracy the people will decide
Yes Richard and it is his right to ask people not to vote for Martin as it is your right to decide if you will or not. The only way to deal with the past is through a truth and reconciliation commission like South Africa.
What a strange comment. Part of the democratic process involves advocating for and against different candidates.
Unless you’re a shinner where you do as your told! Only following orders and all that!
2005 there had a march in Dublin finishing in front of the GPO to celebrate the "100 years of sinn fein".
No I’m not anti republican. Iv never criticized the why the IRA re emerged in the late 60′s to protect catholic. Where did killing Catholics, robbing banks, kidnapping people come into this. The IRA started off as a noble organisation and was turned into nothing more than a criminal organization by the late 70′s/80′s.
Also is that your best comeback. Calling me a troll. Come on.
When ever asked bout His IRA activity he always says that’s in the past and should be forgotten but yet he goes on bout been part of the peace process for the past 20 years(a lie). So we should just look at the good things he did in the past and not the bad ones. Maybe we should apply the same logic to Bertie.
If someone killed Martin McGuinness now, it would very quickly be in the past. Would he have a problem with that?
I accept your point Brian but why did he say that if he’s elected he’d meet the queen? Surely things won’t have changed that much in a few months? I think Mr McGuinness has selective forgetfulness… He’ll forget what suits him…
I can only assume that as a SF representative he would be following the party line but as the President he would have to follow the wishes of the Irish people. As President you can not let your own personal beliefs over rule the will of the people. He might not like it but it goes with the Office and he doesn’t have to go for the job if that’s going to be a problem for him. Personally I’d love to be there if this did come about!
It’s simple. As president he would meet the queen, he would have to represent all the people of Ireland. As a Sinn Fein minister he wouldn’t, currently anyway.
do ye have difficulty reading my post or you just picking and choosing what you want to read. where did i say i supported them.. where did i say that there was a cut off.
please cormac report them crimes you know about
My sympathies to D. Kelly & his family.
My recollection and I stand to be corrected, there was was a report that suggested he was killed by ‘friendly fire’.
Rumour has it that he and the Garda was killed by friendly fire but that will never be proved for obvious reasons, I knew Paddy Kelly and i was just down the road when he was shot; the whole thing was a disaster and im very suprised that more were not killed because of the conduct of the Gardai and especially the special Branch they just never took it seriously flyimg about in fast cars like the dukes of Hazzard dressed like anything but members of the Gardai, speeding tru Army/Garda checkpoints and no one knew who they were how some of them wasnt killed i;ll never know.
By who the unarmed guard who was with him. What your referring to happened after two men were murdered. A report went out that the captures were escaping in a navy blue car, which happened to be the same color as the garda unmarked cars at the time.
Ya think mcguinness will have to get used to this. Wonder is he making an appearance in limerick anytime soon.
whilst there have been such rumors for a long time, and whilst we will never know if its true or not, the simple single indisputable fact is that none of them would have been there and it would never have happened if McGuinness’s “comrades / foot soldiers / republicans / terrorists – select as you see fit” had not kidnapped Tidey.
At the begining there was Deidre, but at the trial of, Brendan McFarlane, has pleaded not guilty to falsely imprisoning Don Tidey on dates unknown between November 24 and December 16, 1983
.Retired Detective Sergeant Patrick Ennis, of the Garda Ballistics Section, said he was involved over an eight-day period in the examination of the scene at Derrada Wood.
He examined three rifles and a submachine gun found in the woods and a number of spent cartridges. Some of the spent cartridges came from a Heckler and Koch automatic weapon and some from an AK-47 style assault rifle, neither of which were Irish Army issue weapons.
I was working as a young man in London in the 1970′s when these people were putting bombs on the streets,killing and terrifying Londoners.
It was utterly unnecessary pointless terrorism .
If that geezer is elected he won’t be MY president.
While I’m highly critical of the man and hope it never happens, but if he is democratically elected as president we will have no choice to to call him our president.
We don’t, unless he repudiates any and all previous oaths he made to any illegal organisations.
I do think an amnesty for the truth would be welcome. Think grieving people can handle the truth rather than coverup. No doubt thar MMcG is a brave man and hope his running in this election has opened debate and will bring a reconciliation between the people of the 32 counties.
He has already said he would be up for the idea. Just waiting on the other sides to come to the table.
Good post Reada.
Truth? What would SF or the IRA know about truth, good luck to anyone who manages to get even a smidgen of the truth from the likes of Adams and McGuinness not to mention their myth peddling supporters! What’s not “in the past” is the hurt and loss felt every single day by the victims of the murdering scum who took the lives of so many people and who now expect everyone to just forget about it! The great hypocrisy being the same people who now spend their time telling us all to forget the recent past revel in the blood and guts of 1916 and the civil war which the same SF started because they wouldn’t accept the will of the overwhelming majority of the Irish people at time either. Same old story, same old party, same old lies and nonsense!
I’m not informed enough to get involved in the discussion above, but I do think that to tell the poor man whose father is gone that it’s ‘in the past’ is highly insensitive. It’s not ‘in the past’ to him, i’m sure. He must still be living it every day. I think that was a very inappropriate thing for him to say.
After following this tonight I’m really happy people are talking. I do think people in the 26 counties should try to put themselves in the shoes of MMcG as a young man growing up in Derry and try to be more understanding.
I imagine after joining the
Ira it wouldn’t be easy to hand in your resignation when the going got tough.
He did however put himself in the firing line by choosing to go down the path of peace. I applaud that.
Well said. I wonder if there is anyone from Derry commenting on this?
Nobody cares about it northern problems we have bigger fish to fry with our economic problems in the republic so get off ur high horse.
@Reada – but why did so many people in the same situation as him NOT join the IRA or support Sinn Fein? Only a few thousand people were active members of the IRA during the troubles. That’s a pretty small section of Irish society.
He is a thug, god save Ireland if he ever became president. And why does he keep saying "island of Ireland" it’s northern Ireland and the republic of Ireland. Two seperate jurisdictions…
Cormac you can’t pin the last 40 years ago on Martin McGuinness. I know you’d love to but you can’t.
He’s the one picking and choosing which past he wants remembered.
As are you Cormac…
It’s in the past says McGuinness? Can you imagine the British refusing to inquire in to Bloody Sunday because "It’s in the past"?
They did long enough tho. You can’t compare the two.
Why can you not compare the two? According to Sinn Fein it was a war, a war needs 2 or more parties. Why must the actions of only one of the side be investigated and names released?
Well when he does meet the british He might have the balls to ask why the files on Dublin and Monaghan are been witheld. Something the last two governments didnt have the balls to follow the will of the people.
Very thoughtful piece by Ronald Bennett in The Guardian today. Points out just how much McGuinness has done constructively.
THE FREEDOMS won by the volunteers of the War of Independence to which Danny Morrison alludes (Opinion, Oct 6th) were indeed substantial and have gradually and peacefully been expanded upon since. By contrast, the 25-year campaign waged by the Provisional IRA only resulted in hundreds of deaths, thousands of injuries, and untold economic damage.
That campaign won no freedoms and advanced no civil rights. Instead it was marked by vengeful, deeply sectarian incidents: the murders of retired members of the security forces, the killing of a congregation at prayer in Darkley, of workers going home at Whitecross and Teebane, of a gathering in commemoration at Enniskillen, and the singling out of predominantly Protestant or unionist towns like Ballymena, Bangor, Coleraine, and Portrush for massive bomb attacks.
Blaming the British army, the RUC and loyalist paramilitaries for firing the first shots, as Morrison does, hardly absolves those who responded with such viciousness. The former have to answer for their actions. But those who directed the IRA’s campaign did so calmly and coldly, recruiting to their cause young men and women in the foolish belief that violence would produce a British withdrawal and, consequently, a united Ireland.
It was from the outset a futile, tragic and unattainable objective by those means, and none of its leaders has fully answered for the mayhem caused.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1013/1224305706437.html
Mcguinness will never be my president I hate him with every fibre of my being. How would we feel if the Germans made a neo nazi their president, we wouldn’t be 2 impressed so if this farce continues it will cost us dearly around d world.
nazi comparison is silly sinn fein immigrant policy is very well known think u might want to check it out try counciling for the hate
a merkel is very right wing
Are there any fibres left for hating Gerry too ?
neo nazis have done loads to reconcile peace…no wait? they never!
bad comparison
i take it from thumbs down ye do believe ira r responsible for 100% of crime in ireland naive people propaganda machines dream
course the IRA weren’t responsible for 100% of the crime in ireland but they were involved in armed robberys, cash in transit robberys, kidnappings and killing of innocent people.
Just to clarify Cormac. You supported IRA actions up until late 70′s/early 80′s ?
where did i say i supported that. the IRA reemerged to protect the catholics against violence acted upon them. i would be more a supporter of the john hume approach than theviolent approach
a money holding centre a i b bank got robbed in waterford in the 90s press and guards said had to be ira because gombeen irish r too thick too organise a heist ???no we r not but we r thick enough to believe this shit everytime every kidnap every bank is ira
John Hume would never have said the IRA were noble , you did. You offered the cut-off date for nobility around the late seventies. Seems to me you supported that ‘noble’ phase.
Yes Not everyone would be ready for t and r.
red hot off the press "ira" introduces crime in ireland "
please do the right thing report crimes that u know to be fact ye obviously have proof yer so adamant
Ok.
Provisional IRA- the murder of gerry McCabe during the attempted robbery of a cash in transit. The kidnapping and murdering of the disappeared. 4 members of the PIRA pleaded guilty (I know they pleaded guilty to manslaughter) to the incident in adare.
Real IRA- omagh bombing, the recent killing of the catholic psni officer.
Associated crimes:
Murder of Robert McCarthy
Enniskillian bombings
I could go on.
In what way Michael.
Ronan Bennett, sorry,
@Stephen. Fair comment. Republicans realise that there is a lot of work to be done to make them more ‘attractive’ to vote no.1 or receive a high transfer.
Bernice Hennessy, was it ever proven that a bullet from the Heckler or Koch found killed Patrick Kelly?
Was this deleted ?
Cormac can you clarify whether you supported the ‘noble’ IRA up until the late 1970′s ?
@Paul Houston, Paul it’s idiots like you that vote for SF, they are the political arm of the Murderous IRA name some thing they’ve done ehh how difficult is that Birmingham,,Warrington, Omagh BElfast, Eniskillen the list is endless you fool you even look like a pathetic fool
ask????? it was a statement
The mcguinness bashing continues by state run media, planting of that man in athlone was a ploy and you all fell for it.takes your mind of the legal murder of this nation in our health system and the continued rape of our wealth by kenny and co to pay the banks. howlan shruged his shoulders on vincent brown when asked about nama.vote NO on the referendums to give kenny and co extreem power
well said it amazes me how everybody chooses to take newspaper reports and state media as fact
You guys really have a problem with freedom of thought and expression, don’t you?
william look were telling people who not to vote for got your fine gael candidate surely asking is better then telling
a lot of mixed up facts rira cira republican sinn fein nothing to do with mmg linking the man to omagh cormac very wrong of you
I never linked him to omagh. That’s why I purposely put it under the heading RIRA. You asked bout crimes committed by the IRA and I gave you examples of crimes committed by the PIRA and RIRA.
I know the difference between the different ‘branches’ of the IRA and there political wings.
Maybe people should read posts before commenting.
sorry cormac thought topic was mmg
lets deal in facts not hear say and british even irish propoganda too much believing everything we here and read as fact did nobody in ireland ever rob a bank for themselves and not the ira selling newspapers is the priority not the truth viva the journal
I will be behind whoever is voted President. It’s clear that Martin McGuinness will poll well , indeed much better than Gay Mitchell. I will stick my neck out and say he’ll come a tight 2nd.
He will have raised the profile of Sinn Fein who can expect a bounce at the next election.
Cormac and his thumbs down faceless twitter drones might not like it but that’s tough.
Oh and I live on the island of Ireland unless suddenly the 26 counties gas fractured and set sail into the Atlantic?
Eoghan Harris described Mary McAleese (from my City) as a "tribal timebomb" during her campaign.
Don’t let the rabid scare you..
Wow Paul you really don’t read the posts that other people put up do you. I posted early that if he I elected I would have to accept it as it would be the will of the people. Your right I mightn’t like it but I will accept it.
Martin Maguinness , what is your opinion?
http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=9513
Iv two what on twitter.
Cormac I did read your post. I was stating that you and your faceless followers don’t like the fact the Sinn Fein will get a boost from this.
Doubt iv followers. If people agree with me fair enough. If they don’t I’m not going to resort to name calling.
As for the fact that iv no picture up. What bout it.
Hmm says you have 2 on twitter?
It’s always easy making the strong point in anonymity.
have your say