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MARGARET THATCHER’S GOVERNMENT considered changing the border in Northern Ireland to bring some predominantly Catholic areas into the Republic of Ireland, British state papers have revealed.
The Financial Times reports (subscription needed) that the proposal was discussed by the UK cabinet to “produce a more homogeneous population in Northern Ireland”.
The 1984 plan was ditched however with the then NI Secretary Jim Prior noting that it would only be considered, “if we were faced with imminent civil war, or as a result of civil war but I do not believe that we have reached that stage.”
The documents laid out negotiations between the Irish and British Governments in the run up to the 1985 Anglo-Irish agreement with the FT reporting that they detailed a “pessimistic tone” about whether a deal could be done.
“The Irish want more than we can give and always will. I doubt whether we shall find a way forward,” Thatcher is reported to have said.
The Guardian is also reporting the former Taoiseach Garret FitzGerald had considered holding a referendum to give up the Republic’s constitutional claim on Northern Ireland in return for a number of concessions.
The proposed compromise included reforms of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and the introduction of north-south “mixed courts” with judges drawn from both sides of the border.
But continued violence hampered negotiations between the Irish and British Government’s, with the IRA’s 1984 bombing of the Brighton Hotel during the Conservative conference almost derailing talks completely.
After the bombing, which killed five prominent Conservatives including one MP, Thatcher is reported to have said, “The events of Thursday night at Brighton mean that we must go very slow on these talks, if not stop them. It would look as if we were bombed into making concessions to the Republic.”
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Nothing like a bit of ethnic cleansing to keep the Unionist/Loyalists happy.
But they wouldn’t of been happy
Ethnic cleansing is the removal of a particular group of people, either by forced migrations or genocide. The proposal was a shifting of boundaries, not people, so that, say, parts of southern Armagh, Down, Tyrone, Derry, etc. would no longer be under UK control.
No way this could have worked, theres Unionists in Derry and surrounding areas, theres Unionists in many other border areas too, they’d have to have been moved back from the border.
It wouldnt have been ethnic cleansing Brian, ethnic cleansing was what the PIRA attempted to do to Protestants living in Fermanagh and Tyrone.
James
In the same way Loyalists did for years and years to Catholics and Nationalists Burnt them out of their homes
James the Genocide of 1845-1852 was ethnic cleansing. The IRA mearly started an armed struggle in response to Irishmen and Women been shot of the streets, locked up without reason or trial. As we see all the time with Unionists and how they would love to go back to them days
The pograms were started by Paisley,,,,,,, ethnic elimination was his goal
Pilib the PIRA attempted to ethnically cleanse rural border areas, stop trying to make excuses for it or rewrite our history. This happened in living memory.
By the way nobody was being locked up without trial until after the troubles started, dont imply that internment was in effect before the PIRA started bombing the place and shooting people.
While ethnic cleansing is usually associated with the likes of Bosnia and genocide, it also means the displacement of one group so as to create a state for a singular group. In this case the redrawing of borders so as to only have a Protestant majority with a “walled ghetto” for Catholics. In other words the “Protestant State for a Protestant” people so often cited by the UUP and DUP would have been “cleansed” of the Catholics. Pure, naked bigotry at it’s worst. The fact that it was considered at the highest level just goes to show how much the British Government was so one sided in it’s outlook on NI.
“incentives, such as loyalty tests for benefits and large-scale internment “should drive out large numbers”, just goes to show that the British Government was going to be slightly more civilized than the last time they carried out the same idea around the time of the Plantations.
James when you say “No way this could have worked, theres Unionists in Derry and surrounding areas, theres Unionists in many other border areas too, they’d have to have been moved back from the border.” you forget that no one in the Republic gives a shit about Unionists who live here.
They wouldn’t have to move if they didn’t want to and they would have exactly the same rights as everyone else here. Of course they could fly their flags and march up and down the road all they like but it would be on equal terms with all citizens of the Republic.
James http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/northern_ireland/understanding/events/internment.stm
Internment was used in the 50s. Tell the truth you would love to see the good old days return where Unionist domination of the Nationalists of Northern Ireland. What about the British Army role in the troubles, Bloody Sunday ? Dublin and Monaghan ???? Where the Catholic people of Northern Ireland meant to take that lying down ?
Rewrite history,,,,,, let’s just read history
Cromwell said ” to hell or to Connacht “
Maybe you should read what Carson said too
The power or the Protestant is gone my friend
I would like to invite you to our beautiful island
Please don’t say ” No No Urelster says no”
I want you to stay and be my neighbour as I think we can grow together and become the new ireland as brothers
Brian theres no way we would be treated properly in a united Ireland or in the current republic, why do you think the Protestant population down there moved to NI in droves after 1921? Theres Protestants down there today but they are very quiet, any past affiliation they had with unionism or Britain is completely eradicated, thats not what I want for myself or my own family. For us to join a united Ireland means leaving unionism behind us.
Theres nothing in the republic to represent unionists, no unionist parties that advocate rejoining the UK etc, being a unionist in the republic is pointless.
Maybe stop being a Unionist and adopt the nationality of the country you live in, like what the Unionists did south of the border. Thats the way the tide is going. Tide and time wait for no man.
Pilib there was an IRA campaign too in the 50′s and into the 60′s in which they murdered policemen and civilians. Dublin/Monaghan and Bloody Sunday also happened long after the PIRA campaign had started, why are you implying these things started the conflict? Over 100 people were already dead by the time bloody Sunday came around.
Dont pretend you know anything about me either, I never ever stated that I wanted to dominate anybody. Stick to what you know here instead of trying to undermine me by making up silly allegations.
Conor why dont the nationalists in NI become unionists instead? You are basically asking me to do the same thing only the other way about.
James.
Those men shot in Fermanagh and Tyrone were shot because they were UDR members, members of a murderous and brutal force. How many lives were saved by the shooting of those men.
It certainly put manners on the UDR there as loyalist paramilitary members and violent ordinary members were weeded out.
Unionists have big enough numbers to create a political party of their own in a united Ireland to look after their own interests.
Cillian i’m talking about ordinary Protestant civilians who were murdered, not security forces or loyalist paramilitaries.
You don’t have to stop being a unionist .. You can believe what you want ,,,, in monaghan, Donegal, Cavan and Leitrim there are orange halls and marches and schools that are attended by people who do not want catholic teachings that exist every day,,,,,,,, GUESS WHAT ,,,,,, THEY EXIST ,,,, they are Protestant and happy and they exercise their religion and education and no one bothers them
I lived all my life in north monaghan in a very ” republican” area and I voted accordingly ,,, but my neighbours and business partners were of both faiths and we talked and drank and did good business with each other and none of them are climbing over the border to be with their “unionist ” brethren
We both own property and respect each other’s wishes
There is so much more I wish to say
And Cillian if the UDR were a murderous and brutal force what words would you use to describe the IRA? Surely there isnt a word in your vocabulary strong enough!!
UDR killed 8 people during the troubles
PIRA killed 1800
Declan plenty did climb over the border after 1921.
James, you can play the blame game all day. Everyone bar the loyalists are trying to move this island forward. What is wrong with that?
And I have met people in the North whose grandparents were forced thru intimidation over the border after the birth of the Free State with tacit support from local Gardai
Roland I am moving forward. The thing is I dont have blood on my hands like Sinn Fein, I wasnt responsible for hurting anybody so why has the more right to preach about moving forward, republicans and their supporters or me?
I’m just against a united Ireland, thats what being a unionist is. Im for the peace process though, I dont believe that a united Ireland is needed for peace.
The article above didn’t specify that, Brian. If the link you provided is true (and I’ve no reason to doubt it), then that indeed would have been ethnic cleansing.
James …. How many Catholics were killed and sent over the border,,,,,,,, am not gonna fight you but In all honesty ,,,, since the plantation , or the nine year wars, or Carson’s declaration , you know that most of the cleansing was not done by irish or catholic
IRISH does not mean catholic it means irish ……. Why do you think the orange bar in the flag is as big as the green one?
And the White was for peace between us
What’s done is done James. Aren’t republicans entitled to representation? Why shouldn’t they push for unification peacefully? You yourself said a few weeks back that if Ireland was unified, you would take up a gun to fight against it! Make up your mind, are you pro violence or pro peace?
Its all a load of tosh. The Ira of 70/80 were evil. Maybe they had to be I don’t know. The British forces were just as bad so fire with fire. The repression by the British government lead to the creation of the provisionals and the nut jobs in the INLA. It just escalated then over religious. So stupid so so stupid. Might as well go to war over is it correct to say santy or Santa. Nuts
But anyway these days I could not give a toss about the north. It’s British until the majority say different. Them the breaks and no matter what anyone says it’s the only way a united Ireland will come.
Till then could not care less
Theres more to Ireland than catholics and sinn fein. Im an atheist and so are my family
Declan I dont recognise the Irish flag or its meaning. Its not my flag and never will be.
Roland i’m pro peace but i’m against a united Ireland. I think i’d be justified in fighting against something that isnt in my best interests, after all the republicans did it here when the majority of NI didnt support them. My wishes for peace are conditional to NI’s constitutional status.
And yes Roland republicans do have a right to advocate their wishes peacefully, its a pity it took them so long to realise that. And just because they advocate them peacefully doesnt mean i’ve to accept them or it doesnt make them any different to what they were before.
You cannot say James that you are pro peace,,,,,,,,,,, your past comments and post prove that this is no true …… Either you are what you are or not
Either state what you are or defend what you say with honour
I support peace for Northern Ireland and its continuation in the UK. Thats my position.
What kind of shite are you talkin? We have no problem with the Protestant faith! Some of our great leaders were Protestant! I have lots of Protestant neighbours and friends! It’s the loyalist yobs who are the problem fuelling hate and devision! Let’s look at a few facts
You were planted here and you’ve also been dumped and forgot about as no one in England want yas or care!
It was the loyalists who armed first in 1912 forming a illegal armed force because of talk of home rule!
There would be no IRA if England invaded or if the Catholics were treated properly in the 6 counties!
The Irish flag was invented to allow for all faiths Green for catholic Orange for Protestant and White for the hoped peace between both communities in a united Ireland! What part of the Northern Ireland flag or the Union Jack shows so much unity between our people???
YOUR QUEEN came to Ireland recently and bowed before our Republican dead monument and also she apologised for England’s history and treatment of the Irish in their homeland!
Stop living in la la land and let’s live together! You already share the name Irish just drop the north part and live and share with your brothers and sisters both catholic and Protestant
Don’t forget the Irish who were hauled off and made slaves in Barbados. The whole idea of moving English/English speaking Scottish people to the North of Ireland was an act of ethic cleansing.
But your past comments says you will take up a gun and kill if necessary ,,,,,,,,,,,,,? If anyone takes your ability to be part ok the uk
I thought the referendum you voted on said you would respect the wishes of the masses,,,,,,,,or is that only if it suited you ,,,,,,, again very similar to “no no no “
Muiris I dont want to live in a united Ireland, that will never change. Your Dublin government has no right to rule me. That Dublin government helped set up the PIRA and then its security forces colluded with them to murder our people, Were they looking at the white in their national flag when they done that?
As it should be, it’s time Unionists get a grip on their own history and how they came to Ireland in the first place. Your kind of thinking would have left apartheid in South Africa. Whites in South Africa had to turn over the country they stole through colonialism back to the Africans and learn how to get along in a society they no longer controled.
Declan the majority want NI to remain in the UK, why cant you respect that now until a proper push for a united Ireland begins to happen, if it begins to happen.
Theres going to be no seismic shifts in opinion here yet, for now its the UK and thats how its staying.
The GFA states we are in the UK until the majority says otherwise.
It also states that my British identity must be recognised.
I’m told on here daily that im not British, the British dont want us, a united Ireland is coming whether I like it or not, the Protestants are being bred out etc etc. Hardly in the spirits of a peace agreement is it?
James, you’re delusional. You need to take time out, read some Irish history and look at the troubles impartially. The reason for the conflict is not just PIRA. PIRA were a product of a two tier statelet. You say you don’t want to live in a 32 county ireland and if there ever was one, you’d fight against it while at the same time denouncing republicans for fighting against the British? You’re a complete and utter hypocrite pal. Slán go fóil.
James deserves respect for his views and he hasn’t fallen into petty squabbling and slogans . The fact is there are far too many people in the Republic of Ireland who are simply incapable of understanding the thoughts of unionists. Unionists cannot all be assumed to be anti irish extremists. Far from it. They have justifiable grievances. People In ROI should embrace and understand Northern Protestants and not demonise them. Let’s face it our own national identity is deeply flawed too.
And james the provisional IRA had very very limited support in the Republic of Ireland even at the height of the Troubles, they were banned here and many were imprisoned. They were viewed as dangerous subversives who threatened the stability of the state. At this point in time their influence is gone, they have given up their weapons, they pursue exclusively peaceful means. Is this not enough?
Roland you are speculating as am I. I might be dead tomorrow mate, theres no accurate time frame on a united Ireland, if its coming then i’d say its decades away, im 32 now, if it takes 20 or 30 years i’ll hardly be fighting anything, as I said already I could be dead tomorrow.
Why cant you accept that I dont want to live in a united Ireland Roland?
I respect your right to be a British citizen and part of the UK ,,,,,, but you said that if it was ever taken away you would kill and take up a gun,,,, on me no less ,,, even if it was through an elected agreement
Do if you get your way it’s fine but if the electorate says otherwise you will become a killer?
Rational or otherwise?
Timmay I just find it hard to accept their peaceful means when for so long they renounced any peaceful means and set about murdering anybody that didnt agree with them. They lack credibility in my eyes. And just because they are now peaceful their victims are still in the ground and never coming back. Their offshoots are still trying to murder people too,
Declan the republicans went against the majority of the people of NI for 30 years. Why is it a problem if I wage undemocratic violence?
They are like children up there. “They did this, so why cant I do this? waaaaa”. They really need to grow up and take responsibilities, act like bloody adults.
James ,,,, it don’t start 30 years ago
If I was to have a meeting with you and your peers would you at least agree that this has been a 8 century disagreement?
You have a 30 year hate filled conflict down there then Conor and see how reasonable you are feeling afterwards.
Get over it, you only live once. Live your life and stop living in the past.
Declan the phase of this conflict that I know started 40 odd years ago, it supposedly ended 15 years ago. I dont know about the 8th century, I try to deal in the times and events that have influenced me.
I am living my life Conor. I just dont want a united Ireland.
I don’t troll or be nasty as I want rational opinions on things ,,,, it makes me smarter
But James it will come a day when they actually will have a referendum on Ireland in your beautiful UK or Britain and you will see who really wants you there,,,,, actually we are happy here in ireland to integrate everyone into our beautiful island and I wish you would embrace it
Paisley once said “if Britain doesn’t want us we will go it alone”
He gave up on that very quick my friend cause he was smarter than you all think
Declan only the people of NI can decide its future. Stop the scaremongering for god sake, its not working.
I can accept that. What I utterly refuse to accept us you saying you would kill if a united ireland ever happened. You’re no different to those you denounce.
You still have an awful big hypocritical chip on your shoulder, James. You condemn the PIRA for taking up arms, yet reverse the roles and you say you’d be justified. You seem to want the British authorities and loyalist paramilitaries and terrorists forgiven, but in the same breath want to condemn forever the nationalist versions. It sounds like you’re of the old supremacist loyalist ilk. Personally, I couldn’t care about nationalists or unionists. I focus on the individual. If, as a majority, they wish to remain British then that’s fine by me. As long as people of all traditions are treated with equality and respect.
I differ from republicans Roland because they have already waged undemocratic violence, I speculated about it on a news forum. Theres a huge difference there.
So accept it then Brian, I just wish the rest of the nationalists would see things your way too. It would go a long way to easing tensions here.
It’s not scare mongering James……. The British army done phyco analysis on the people they stationed in ” North ireland” and refused to call it a poll as they didn’t want to release the results
I cannot prove this or give results as that would make me a fake
They claimed this was a matter or national security and the results would cause disillusionment for further deployments
I’m sorry, James, but I can’t accept you suggesting it’s wrong for nationalists to kill unionists but that it’s fine for unionists to kill nationalists. The fact is that the status quo won’t change for a long time. The old murderers are dying out. If by the time a United Ireland looks likely (and I’m not saying it will) it will have been achieved by democrats through the ballot box. Yet you say you would take up arms against this. That means you do not support democracy, you do not support the GFA, and you support terrorism if it holds your point of view.
So a few soldiers said they didnt want to be in NI, that makes sense given the conditions they had to operate under. I wouldnt have wanted to be here either.
Brian its not ok for unionists to kill nationalists. Please dont accuse me of having that kind of mindset again mate.
James, a few weeks ago you said you would take up a gun against a United Ireland. You’re Unionist. Those supporting a United Ireland are Nationalist. Therefore you would support Unionists taking up guns against Nationalists. Or would you just take up a gun and stare at it? What would you do with that gun?
The Genova convention was written by the English and USA govt
” we deem it necessary to find the opinion of every person we send to battle to aclaim their loyalty of reason of why they were made to sacrifice for nation or freedom ”
27 years later the brains of the us govt said
Some people might like their captors ….. Let’s call it ” stochome syndrome” and we can break the Geneva rules and hold them and ” rehabilitate them” till they make public statements in our favour
This is not bulshit and you are welcome to check it out
Sorry for the misspelling of the capital of Sweden where the study was released
I’d refuse to partake in the state, its all just speculation anyway. There is no united Ireland.
I didnt ever say i’d murder nationalists, I advise you to stop making that accusation now or i’ll be reporting you.
Hear hear, James. In this discussion you NEVER said you would kill anyone. Fighting for your right to be part of the UK is far from indiscriminate bombings as carried out by extremists in the name of “war”.
I am a nationalist but I respect your opinion and those of other Unionists to remain in the UK. Talk of atrocities committed 100 or 800 years ago makes little sense. We are where we are. Past generations’ mistakes and misdeeds should left in the past. All that matters is the will of people born on this island and are still alive today.
I commend your honesty and balls standing up to some of the throwbacks on this site today (even if I dont agree with your opinion ;-) )
Says the guy that slags off irish people on here you Hypocrite. Get yourself a job and stop dwelling on the past. In 20-30 years when a vote takes place on a United Ireland if you’re around vote no but lets hope the Irish people in Ireland do the right thing for the island. And have a United Ireland.
Alan, you wouldn’t be saying that if you’d read some of James comments on previous stories. Most people have no problem if the majority want to stay part of the UK. What I have a problem with is someone saying they would take up a gun if they didn’t like the democratic wishes of the majority in saying they wanted reunification. That, in my opinion, makes you no different to the dissident scvm still trying to murder PSNI officers in the 6 counties.
Marc. I am in fact a nationalist, just not an extreme one. I would vote Yes in a referendum on a United Ireland. But I would oppose that happening if and when the majority of NI voted no. I would prefer a partitioned but peaceful island to a United Ireland with a lot of violence.
Roland the dissident tactics today are no different to the PIRA during the conflict, the only difference is the frequency of the attacks. If murdering policemen today makes them dissidents scvm then the PIRA were scvm too as they murdered close to 300 officers. Republican terrorism is the same whether its past or present.
Show me these comments where I threatened to murder nationalists Roland. This is a very serious allegation you are putting on my here.
Violence is violence mate
Because James, they see no legitimate reason for becoming Unionist. Whether or not you are able to accept this, ‘majority rule’ as practised in Northern Ireland up until 1972 and the introduction of Direct Rule from Westminster precisely because of its complete failure to integrate Catholics, holds no attraction to Catholics whatsoever. Why would Catholics, prejudiced against based on their religion, consider affiliation to a state that deems them, officially, as second class citizens? Address this question first, speaking clearly in relation to majority rule culture and the ‘a Protestant State for a Protestant people’ affirmation that underpinned Northern Ireland from 1920 to 1972.
You cannot be selective and sensationalist about long term historical conflicts if you genuinely seek resolution. You must first address the roots of conflict and the long history that official state prejudice played in creating a basket case of a statelet, no matter how orange-tinted your glasses.
Finally, ignoring all this and merely decrying the Catholics’ refusal to turn Unionist is similar to saying why didn’t Jews become Nazis to improve their societal integration. You know why? Because just like the Jews, your beloved State denounced Catholicism and its members from the beginning, excluded them from Government with majority rule and marginalised them with gerrymandering and socio-economic prejudice. Denying these does not change their historical reality. Happy new year.
Did I say nationalists Jimmy? You said you would take up arms if there was ever a united ireland. Gonna play toy soldiers? Now stop acting like a child James. And stop being a hypocrite. Your hatred for everything republican consumes you. Not a pretty sight pal.
There I go doing the exact thing I criticise others for – not checking the facts and basing my opinions on the words of others. For that I apologise, James.
Alan ,,,,,,,, plant some fertilizer and grow a dam pair of balls ,,,, judging by your posts you need to shave your fanny and ass to see even if a wee small pair could be fitted to a princess like you
Ok so I didnt threaten to murder nationalists then, glad that was cleared up.
Such allegations wouldnt be long sticking on this forum, thats why I wanted to nip it at the bud.
Hopefully the Scottish people will do the right thing for Scotland this year and become independent. Let the breakup begin. If we in England get a vote to remove the north of ireland from the UK it will be a majority Yes vote to get rid of the welfare state.
Liam I made the reference to nationalists becoming unionist because it was suggested that I should drop unionism and become a nationalist and accept a united Ireland.
My hared of everything republican says Roland, in other words my hatred of a movement that murdered a family member of mine along with 1800 other people, left thousands more maimed and cause millions of pounds worth of damage to property stopping NI from progressing like the rest of the UK and Ireland. Wheres the part i’m supposed to like?
Shifting the boundary ,shifts the right to vote, More ethnic clensing
How will you feel in the North of Ireland if the majority vote in favour of a United Ireland?
I think the people of Derry should have a vote on what the county should be called. Having 2 names for the same place is ridiculous. Let the people of the county decide in a vote.
James I don’t know you and you don’t know me…all I can base my following comment on here is what you’ve posted on this article.
You said that the people of NI will decide its future, if the majority of NI citizens decide to leave the common wealth after a peaceful and democratic vote. What would you do? would you as posted above take up arms or accept the majority’s decision?
Where I see it going is either England dropping NI or England leaving the EU which would result in ROI having to install a border security system. Either way I believe the common (non repulican/loylaist) northern people are very pragmatic and make a decision based on ecnomics rather than historical clonflicts.
Cormac I will refuse to be a part of any united Ireland, I wont recognise the state, I wont pay taxes or receive any form of benefits from the state, I wont bend the knee to any Dublin government, I wont accept the laws of the state, I wont recognise its police force or any other state apparatus.
As I mentioned before, this is all just speculation. A united Ireland doesnt currently exist, so far here today i’ve seen indications that people accept our current position in the UK and accept that i’m a British citizen. We’ll cross bridges only when we come to them Cormac.
If the common man is interested only in economics then he’ll know hes in the best position at the minute, theres no need to rock the boat.
@Brian Ward.”they’d have exactly the same rights as everyone else here”. Not true, Brian. From Wiki: “More specifically religious anti-Protestantism in Ireland was evidenced by the acceptance of the Ne Temere decrees in the early 20th century, whereby the Catholic Church decreed that all children born into mixed Catholic-Protestant marriages had to be brought up as Catholics. Protestants in Northern Ireland had long held that their religious liberty would be threatened under a 32-county Republic of Ireland, due to that country’s Constitutional support of a “special place” for the Roman Catholic Church.” As unjust and undemocratic as the northern state was, it never tried to legislate Catholics out of existence.
PS Cormac, this peaceful and democratic vote only comes after they’ve already waged 30 years of armed conflict. These main advocates of a united Ireland have been for violence longer than they’ve been against it. If they had advocated peace and democracy for the entirety of the last 44 years then I might be more willing to hear them out.
Then you will have to leave when it happens. Scotland will be independent by that time. Will you burden us english taxpayers even more.
James I agree, I don’t see it changing within the next 50 years. and yes the North is in the best economic situation right now. They benefited from not begin in the Euro and are benefiting from begin able to use the Irish name abroad(for exports).
A villa in the costa del sol would be nice in your old age. But you cant claim benefits from here.
Well i’m not sure on the length of time it’ll take, at the minute theres very little appetite for it. Some are going on as if its imminent but in reality its not even mentioned, even talk of a border poll quickly fizzled out.
Peace in NI needs to be consolidated, trying to bring about a united Ireland now would be disastrous.
James, you said you “would take up arms if there were a united Ireland” Who would you use those arms against James?
Nobody said it was imminent except you. Stop getting excited. Lets wait and see what Scotland decide.
Wait until theres a united Ireland first Padraic.
Later folks.
Accepted and agreed James. Nobody has the right to force their political culture on someone else.
Wouldn’t you agree? (The irony is astonishing)
Maybe now you will begin to see the roots of extremism. There is a big world out there of many cultures, languages and religions. ‘Yours’ is by no means either historically or in contemporary, the best. Far from it. ‘Forcing’ people into a no-win situation creates conflict. A particular practice that is synonymous with Unionism historically and recently.
Let’s hope that recent progress over the last ten years continues.
Well said Liam, its the sad truth. James and co. have a hard pill to swallow.
James the unionist/Protestant community would comprise 20 to 25% of electorate within a 32 county republic. This is a sizeable minority and would demand equal rights and opportunities with such a nation. But what is alien to majority of unionist is the concept of equality and democratic rule. For years we have listened to unionist politicians sprout on about democracy all to keep control of an undemocratic gerrymander state. That has always been economically unfiable and geared towards 1 section of the community at deterrent of other section of the community. The northern state has little or no input into the British parliament as it has less that 4% of seats and is seen as a major drain on their economy.
You are misguided,poorly informed fool.
If you are talking about innocent Protestants who were not masquerading as forces of law asUDR and RUC personnel. Then the actual numbers are far from anything which can even come close to being class as ethnic cleansing. Time to get past the siege mentality and join with the rest of humanity on this small island.
Well considering a lot of these people moved out of their homes never to return i’d say it was a serious enough figure, look at Derry city alone, nearly 20, 000 Protestants moved in the early 70′s. The same thing happened in rural areas but on a smaller scale. So much for the orange and the green and this so called peace between them eh.
There is a big difference between moving voluntarily because you don’t like the smell of the neighbours and being burnt out.
Dan does enda write ur comments for u or do u think them up by urself think its time for another name change how many is this now ps why even talk about her she’s gone and her own people hated her more than we did well apart from the elites and FG/Tories
James I have to say I want a unity Ireland but reading your comment I agree with you it will happen can’t see it for maybe another 100years if ever it will come when both sides start marrying and mixing together make no mistake England want rid they only want it in the first place because of its deep ports were they could keep a eye on the open seas not for the love of the people
@ Censored
The violence in Derry in the early 70′s forced these people out, they left before they were shot or burned out. These people would have been still living there today.
@Marc – Derry is called Derry even by Unionists. There is no need to have a vote but the Royal Charter of 1613 that named it Londonderry needs to be amended.
James if don’t want a united Ireland and don’t want to live under rule from Dublin there’s a boat in Belfast called a ferry get on it and go! We all have to make sacrifices and try understand what used to be the enemy! I’m making a effort as I’m sure many more republicans are trying to do! You flat refuse to try change! There’s no room on this Island for the stiff upper lip la di da attitude! Change us coming and it affects everyone! We all have a part to play
James it’s called war! According to the British rules of war book you can fly over cities and drop bombs by the hundreds on a city that has no military base or poses no threat to the enemy ask the Germans who’s cities like Dresden were flattened over night killing hundreds of thousands innocent people wiping whole families and generations off the face if the earth! But sure this is ok as it was war!
Declan,
I sincerely doubt that a poll was done. Father 26 years service, self 16 never heard of a poll being done. Soldiers are not asked about whether they like the job or not, they may be asked for suggestions to improve conditions, when was this poll conducted. Maybe I was there at the time, there will definitely be people I know who were in NI. Why weren’t we asked?
Alan,
Surely you know that reasonable balanced statements on this subject invite red thumbs.
Admire your words accepting the opinions of someone who disagrees.
It is the only way forward.
Can’t remember who said it but ” I may disagree with you Sir, but I will fight for your right to be wrong”
Now will this get more red thumbs than your comment?
Being against a United Ireland isn’t what a Unionist is, maintaining the link with Britain is.
We could have a United Ireland and ever stronger links with Britain on equal terms, without the baggage of history.
To paraphrase ‘I am pro peace until something doesn’t suit me, then I go to war.’
I think you need to drop the Sanctomony about the IRA and Republicans with statements like that. Does it even enter your head that people had that same dilemma about the immoral partition of our country in the first place, yet you pontificate about people making a choice to take up arms when you said you would do as much yourself.
You and Unionists are not the centre of the Universe and your position does not overide human decency.
Republicans do not recognise NI, so we are the majority in Ireland.
Partition was a dumb idea in the first place …Re partition is even dumber. Unity with all of the people working together is our only option going forward.
To rejoin the UK of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland. ?
You can’t force a united Ireland or force them to join the UK.
You may see this as the only option but very clearly the people living there don’t want this…atleast not all of them,
The problem with N.Ireland is you are dealing with generations of hatred and bigotry and thats very much on both sides. No side is innocent in this
I agree with Martin.
I suspect implied in cillians ‘working in unity’ comment was ‘working in *Irish* unity’ – which fails to understand the Unionist position.
They have always had no interest in joining an independent Ireland and that must be respected.
Spot on,
Like it or not N.Ireland has two groups of people in it and you can’t ignore one side over the other,
It seems ok for some people to just do what Catholics want (united Ireland etc) and to hell with the rest, but if the other side did what they want and ignored the Catholics wants and needs they’d be uproar.
Its a very tricky situation and there is no quick fix for this, as I’ve said. its decades of ingrained hatred on both sides and thats a very sad situation which prevents progress and stops all the people that seeing that at the end of the day they are all the same.
Which is why I posted my initial (tongue-in-cheek) question above.
Its not just hatred. For many it is simply a matter of preference. It is no different to many people in the Republic who do not hate the English (except a bit of banter at a rugby or soccer match) but would find the idea of re-union with the UK extremely distasteful and would strongly resist any attempts to make it happen.
It is not all hate and bigotry in the North. In fact that is the minority. But they are the people that make the 9 O’clock news.
Those who talk about how they have close friends from the other side only end up on some obscure programme at 11:30 that few watch. But these are the majority in NI
Eh they are part of the UK and some would be of the view that they were forced into it.
I am saying that the Unionist attitude (mostly) a United Ireland is not much different to our attitude to rejoining the Uk. Not necessarily a bigoted position.
Bringing up history does not help. How many of the Republic could trace their roots to this country pre-1600 ?
Rejoining the UK was, and still is, the most sensible option.
I wasnt talking to you Alan :) that was a reply to Martin Bishop.
A lot my friend….. The o’neills of ulster for a start
The o donnells of donegal
The mc Mahlon’s of monaghan
It’s possible and am not sure who you want to be identified by but don’t tell us who we should be identified by cause we are proud of our 800 years mr lawler
Go to your rugby game ,,,,,, we gotta live with it every day ,,,,,,, grow up collage student
Thatcher was right I think. They should have moved Cavan Monaghan and Donegal into the North. Belfast Derry and Armagh should have been moved to Scotland. Antrim could have moved to the Falkland Islands and let the Argentineans use it for target practice. Well done Maggie
Genius. Love it.
Move them to hell for all we care in the republic, those animal never will be welcome here, ye made yer bed
What an evil person she was!
You know this for a fact margit from your photo look to young to have been around during her time in power
You are a nasty piece of work….
By that reasoning it would be wrong for me to say Hitler was evil.
I think you’ve added a few decades 80 and 90, John,
She wasn’t evil, she achieved much in her tenure and friends and did very little that was bad, unless you’re a rabid socialist who thought that a certain Arthur Scargill was reasonableness personified. OK, she met with the evil rat that is Savile but she had no more idea of his predatory nature than anyone else reading this. She did not want Mandela hanged but in the eighties, he was still considered to be a bit of a murdering terrorist. Obviously he is now rehabilitated along with many others, including our Gerry… Hindsight is such a convenient science and don’t forget she was elected by the British populace who generally speaking thought she was a pretty good deal.
Talking to people about their experiences. And I was there to see the aftermath.
*decades^between
She was a magnet for sexual deviants and abusers and she used this to keep a firm control of her inner circle via blackmail.
That’s SF your on about, SF now stands for sex fiends
Dan, Do you think your constant inflammatory prattle belies your timidity?
J.dunn dan was calling himself enda one a week or so a go think enda and his buddy’s are paying sad dan to spout shite about sf and hoping it will stick but what it’s really doing is showing up the mine set of the FG/Tories sad really
No no no, this can’t possibly be right. Thatcher was a notorious hibernophobic tyrant, and the only way to get concessions out of her was violence. Lots and lots of lovely violence. Anything suggesting that actually she was prepared to talk reasonably to reasonable people, and that violence was getting in the way of progress rather than creating it, is obviously fake and planted by securocrats and West Brits.
British evil, Irish happy go lucky pixie people
She took on the Unions, that’s one positive legacy of her era
She should have taken on the Unionists.
Unionists hated her.
True right head
Steve, drink up Maggie’s milk.
@Emily Elephant – PIRA violence was counter- productive with Margaret Thatcher. Having a Kerry ancestor made Margaret Thatcher very determined to oppose people who sought to use violence and terrorism to pursue political aims. She opposed the Russians, she opposed the Argentines, she opposed PIRA, she opposed the UVF and she opposed the UFF.
Hope she is currently burning in hell
Redrawing the border has always been a sensible idea but unfortunately the bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton and other similar atrocities did the prospects of peace and reconciliation a huge amount of damage.
David, as a member of the ultra right-wing British Conservative party, born in Ireland, your opinion is very much respected here – did you know btw many British miners at the time cursed the fact that she escaped that bomb?
You speak of “Huge damage to peace in Ireland” and try to pin it on us, the Irish.
David, peace in Ireland was “damaged” the day the country was taken by shear holy terror, it’s people forced off the land, the country held mostly by force of arms and anti- Irish laws, and then divided with an apartheid statlet. That’s what happened to peace in Ireland – the root cause must be faced – please do not try to shift the blame.
Redrawing the border was an awful idea. The RUC/UDR would have gone all out to wipe out non-unionists in the remaining area leading to full scale civil war.
The rump state, even if it had survived, would be even less economically feasible that the current one.
Bombing the Tory Conference sent a very clear message to them that they could not inflict pain and killing far away without it coming back to visit them. You can’t run death squads in other countries and not expect people to hold you to account. This is what happened in Brighton in a very spectacular fashion.
Err, that was the French, or the Norman at least (Noradrenaline from the cold bit of Europe) who really set this whole repression thing in the British Isles going. They did Ireland shortly after screwing England And rogering Wales! Everyone in Europe has been invaded, repressed and beaten since God was a boy, is it not time we all got over it and tried to drop the international hatred?
The Normans are long gone, the Orange Order are still causing problems though.
What international hatred?
Padraic, I am Irish and like many Irish people I am a conservative. I am also, like many Irish people, a republican. The British Conservative Party is like Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, the German Christian Democrats, the Australian Liberals and many other parties a right of centre party. It is not extreme or far right. Right now it is in coalition with the left of centre Liberal Democrats.
@Cillian Durkin – bombing the Conservative Party Conference was a major crime. Innocent people were killed and injured. It set the cause of Ireland and Irish Republicanism back many years. It can never be justified.
That is your opinion David.
Personally I thought it was a great success.
The Tory party got a first hand demonstration of what it was doing to others in Ireland via its proxy killer gangs and state forces.
It educated the Tory party that another way had to be found, so it advanced the cause of Ireland.
She took power away from the workers and the Unions and gave it to the elites in Corporations. So now we have all the wealth at the top were CEOs are paid millions on bonuses let alone wages whilst the worker when she can find a job is on 0 hour contracts, a minimum wage with no sick or holiday pay to name but a few.
The so called prosperity that the UK and other western economies enjoyed through Thatcherist policies was very short lived and we are witnessing the fall out of casino capitalist that she helped bring about through her laissez-faire policies in the form of deregulation and minimal regulation in the Banking sector especially.
But worst of all is the privatisation policy whereby all the Energy,Water, Health, etc are sold off to these Corporations and Hedge Funds. And of course the worker will pick up the tab should Big Business default.
So as I get my full years Property Tax Bill and my Water Tax Bill in for the first time I will take time out to remember Margaret Thatcher and her disciples in other western economies with fondness.
Britain was a mess in the late 70′s , the economy was rigid and if British Layland was the standard of manufacturing the country was going nowhere. she only proposed basic reforms which were not that radical in the scheme of things and in hindsight seem fairly tame. Can you imagine how expensive flying, phones and mobiles would be if they were still state monopolies. The State has no business in manufacturing and providing consumer services.
The unions were destroying the country.
The state has no business in providing consumer services like for example banking until the private sector which provides the service fails, at which point they run squealing for state assistance.
Can you imagine how expensive your consumer water supply service is going to be when it’s privatised and no longer provided by the state ?
@Coddler–ha ha I see what you did there. It comes down to moral hazard, it was immoral that the banks were bailed out, the game was that all the players knew suckers like yourself and myself would carry the can so it didnt matter what they got up to in the preceding years. So my point stands the State shouldnt be in the business of providing private services but they also shouldnt be giving free insurance to anyone that does. At least the gloves are off and we should all be aware we live in a corporatist/fascist state without the goose stepping.
From the outside looking in it seems to me she took Britain from the hands of the hard left unions and handed it to the far right capitalists. No middle ground.
How can an area be Catholic, how would it go to confession etc….
She probably wanted all the Catholics moved to the south pole
Didn’t they try this before
1. The flight of the earls (to Southern Europe)
2. The prison ships to Australia (not much further south than that)
3. The 50 pound grant to move to New Zealand
But them dam Catholics kept multiplying
And I will do my bit at the multiplying …….. As we creep north to the giants causway
Keep at it deco, good man. Our day will come.
Is the grant for moving to New Zealand still available?
The only way to solve the problems in NI were to tackle the causes ie the 2nd class treatment of Catholics. Trying to defeat a popularly supported guerilla movement which the IRA were at that time was never going to work. Her vindictiveness made her a bad leader both in regards to NI & to the situations with the unions in the UK.
If the civil rights campaign in NI in the 60′s had been listened to then quite probably the troubles would never have started & the atrocities on both sides wouldn’t have been committed.
The IRA of the 70′s & 80′s have absolutely nothing in common with the criminals & thugs using their name now. Violence will not bring a united Ireland any closer, in fact if anything it’ll push it further away.
She should’ve redrawn the border at Stranraer.
Do you been a fiddy???? I will give it to you if ya stay he
Last statement of the night …….. Unionist of the north , we the people of a free republic invite you to join us in our nation as we want you , we like you, and we see a place for you in our beautiful island
Sorry to remind you that the UK don’t want ya
Britain does not include you
And Europe likes the republic
But we will take your mortal souls
Please don’t say ” no no no” cause we heard it all before
A young catholic girl with five kids and no income was overlooked to give a Protestant family of two adults and two kids was given a house even tho he had a job ( menial as it was ) with three bedrooms as she had to sleep in a cow shed
In south west Tyrone …. It was the straw that broke the camals back
It’s a ghost town now
The civil rights movement was born ………… We shall overcome,,, we shall we shall,,, we shall overcome
“To Hell or…The Republic”?
I can actually hear her voice saying the “Irish want more than we can give. I doubt we shall find a way forward”. She really was a bit of a witch.
She hated all Irish people, even Unionists.
She hated the Scots, Welsh etc just as much.
An exceptionally cold woman.
Despite her having Irisj ancestory
Often the most virulent bigot is the one that has a part of the other in their ancestry. Self hate thing going on.
@Conor. Margaret Thatcher was very proud of her Kerry ancestry are as all O’Sullivans.
The Unions might have been destroying things but the Thatcher/Reagan/Friedman policies, which the IMF espouses incidentally, have destroyed previously developed western economies. When you can get a country like Ireland with 2% of the European population and 1.2% of its GDP to pay 42% of its banking debt that is what I call “destroyed” unless of course you are a bond holder.
Say what you like about her politics, but there’s no denying that Thatcher was a stone cold fox back in the day.
To be honest I don’t care how this goes down but it would be easier if all the unionists just went home to England we’re they could do as they liked
I believe you may mean Scotland, English, they are not.
They are Irish this is their home.
I don’t think they rightly know what they are.
Oh Maggie, I wished I’d never seen your face.
And, really, did the British learn nothing from the disaster of the partition of India? In fact they should have learned their lesson from the first partition of Ireland but no, they repeated it in 1947 in India and were going to repeat it here in Ireland in the 80′s. What’s that definition of madness again? Something about repeating the same experiment and expecting a different outcome?
to call her a bitch would be an insult to female dogs
Strange the the republican don’t understand that the people of the republic hate you more than the unionist. Didn’t matter what maggie did, ye animals were not welcome here then or ever, ye made yer bed :)
I am from the Republic. It’s only physiologically damaged self abusers who have the problems you’re describing.
What needs to be addressed is the fact that Ulster was an apartheid state just like South Africa and Rhodesia, only it wasn’t the color of your skin but your faith that decided whether you were a victim or the bully. The UK is changing demographically with all the colonial people who now live there making up the majority. They don’t give a toss about Unionist and do take the side of the Irish. I believe that England vote ulster out of the union and some kind of civil war will erupt. The only difference will be that the Unionists wont have the strong arm of an english army to protect them. The only reason that unionists even get a look in in parliament is because they control a small swing vote. Once thats gone, well there goes your bargaining tool
Its killing Thatcher shaking Garret Fitzgeralds hand in the above picture
@Paul Yates. That is simply not true. Margaret Thatcher got along well with Gareth Fitzgerald and he with her.
She openly despised Fitzgerald and humiliated him in public with her Out, Out, Out stance.
She liked Haughey though she clashed more with him, she admired those that were crooked politically and took what they wanted by strength. Dictators like Pinochet were close friends to their death.
I dont understand people calling for united ireland.we are already in the shit. Another 6 expensive counties.no thanks. Northen ireland is already divided into catholic and protestant areas.then sub division by class. This makes polar communities that will never share the same opinion or experience
More diversity would benefit the Republic (or whatever comes next). A larger population and homogenous economic area would benefit everybody. A lot of wasteful duplication would be removed. What else could come out of this? An alternative to FF/FG twin cheeks of the same arse?
They should have set up a joint international committee to figure out the one true, exact, correct, appropriate way to worship that Hebrew holy healer teacher guy who the Romans executed 2000 years ago and then everybody should have been made follow that. Problem solved. Invoice sent.
How is that relevant to the North and please don’t say that you think the North is a religious fight ffs. You might as well say it is about Soccer jerseys.
Maggie was some legend in fairness, as an Irish man I can’t thinking of anything she ever did wrong in her whole career
Also Catholics have larger families than Unionists so they will outbreed them to boot and with the EU looking over the distribution and alignment of constituancies, Unionists will continue their decline. My question had always been; If they are so pro England, why not just move there? and I think I know the answer, its because the white protestant English man is on the endangered list and his bigotry would not be tolerated. You guys should have made a better fight for Ian Smith and his ilk when they went the same road you are headed or listened to Enoch Powell when he had the microphone. Sad to say we not only see the sun setting on the empire we see the sun set on their bigotry as well.
Lot of young Unionists are moving away from the North for the last 25 years.
They see Britain as home and feel comfortable moving there, young nationalists see Ireland as home and feel more comfortable staying or returning on average.
One big problem for young Unionists is the rigid conservatism of groups in their community. What hope when you are looked as a political pariah in the UUP or DUP if you do not believe in creationism and that Gays are evil.
Another self inflicted disaster by Unionism.
@Cillian – I am inclined to agree with your comments above. Younger people from unionist backgrounds have been leaving North -East Ireland for many years because they are sick and tired of the bigotry on both sides, of the violence and threats and of being told they are foreigners in their own country. For centuries, Ulster Protestants came to Dublin to school and university but for the past thirty years they have tended to go to university in Britain and once they are there have stayed. Ireland’s loss is Britain’s gain. Many younger Ulster people from nationalist backgrounds have similarly moved over the border or emigrated to Britain or elsewhere. And of course that has been true of many people from the twenty-six counties who have emigrated out of choice and not always out if necessity. They have voted with their feet to get away from all the hatred, sectarianism, violence, threats and economic insecurity. We need a New Ireland based on consensus, respect for diversity and civil and human rights for all. But in order to unite Ireland, we need to unite the people of Ulster first.
Agreed David.
Poor Denis,nagged by that c*** when he had a few G and Ts,Pity there is no hell for her to burn in.
A hero to all people who obey the law
A hero to Jimmy Saville who she had over for Christmas Dinner every year, despised by her family and all who personally knew her as a cold and evil tyrant at home.
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