@Larry Doyle: this has nothing to do with religion. This is about morality and right and wrong.

@WinSomeLoseSome: We have not come anywhere close to hearing all the medical truthes. What % of voters do you think will make up their minds based on what their local bishop says? This incessant need to drag religion into the debate is a complete red herring and not helpful to the Repeal campaign.

Are you a practicing catholic yourself ‘Tom’?

@Tom Burke: oddly enough its the religious who like to define morality and what is good and bad for us.

@Tom – don’t get too emotional with us on here today.I’m enjoying listening to this expert.Are you ?

@Larry Doyle: How about we hear from as many professors of obstetrics as possible? Preferably with views and facts different perspectives. So we can be as informed as we can be.

@John Doe: “How about we hear from as many professors of obstetrics as possible? ”

How about we avoid any further delaying tactics and just trust women like we should have been doing all along?

@The Risen: Tom was also a no voter in the SSM referendum. He was quite vocal at the time if I remember. All those direct flights to India in order for Irish gays to bring home babies. Remember all the hype and lies.

@WinSomeLoseSome: you don’t seem to know that the religious view that the life of every human being, yours and mine included, begins at conception, accords fully with scientific opinion based on empirical evidence and observation since the second half of the 20th century. It is easier however to dismiss unpalatable truths as lies. After all on the admission of the medical mastermind behind the campaign to secure unrestricted abortion across the US in 1973 their campaign was built on lies and fabricated polls. ‘ Repeating the big lie enough convinces the public.’ Dr. Nathanson ). So think pro-life opponents who call religious /scientific opinion lies. We all know who is telling the big lie. Nobody is fooled.

@WinSomeLoseSome: abortion is a choice in most cases. What’s it got to do with ‘truth’. And the likes of you are very selective about what ‘truths’ are acceptable.
But you’ve only one vote lad.

@WinSomeLoseSome: leave Santa out of it. Maybe you mean the imaginary man in your head that’s pulling all your levers.

@Kay : women are going to end their unwanted pregnancy. Your emotional hogwash will not stop that.

@John Doe: it was the Catholic Church that got us stuck with this amendment in the first place so we will bring religion into it as much as we want. And how many people listened to the priests on SSM?

@John Doe: if you bring in a medical professional for their expert view you will get their expert view. The fact that none of these professionals are supporting the 8th is not their fault. They work with pregnant women every day. Trust me if they thought the 8th is a good thing they would not be shy about saying it.

@Brian Madden: your right I did oppose same sex marriage. But before I’m shouted down I opposed it because I believe adoption should be, where possible, be by a male and a female.
I believe the rights of the child to have a ‘as nature intended ‘ family should prevail.
I have no issue with civil partnerships, inheritance rights, tax as a couple etc. Fine by me.

@Tom Burke: SSM had noting to do with children as gay people could already adopt and foster. Muddying the waters in this instance did not give ye the desired result.

@WinSomeLoseSome: Sky ? I thought he was with Virgin ?

@Tom Burke: you started off looking a bit dim and went rapidly downhill from there. Even now you don’t know what the SSM referendum entailed.

@WinSomeLoseSome: Yeah, I am really selective, I only accept the true truths

@whiney antis: Scientists base their conclusions on empirical evidence and observation, not on emotional hogwash. I am glad I am on the side of the scientists who agree that the life of every human being yours included,begins at conception. Even leading abortionists like Dr Guttmacher a president of Planned Parenthood admit, ‘ I am perfectly willing to grant that life begins at conception let’s not pretend that it (abortion) is not a form of killing’. Doubtless you will continue to pretend otherwise but that’s your problem. Faye Wattleton , longest reigning president of Planned Parenthood in 1997 said, I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don’t know that abortion is killing.’ Delude yourself Whiney, no one else is deluded.

@WinSomeLoseSome: it is nit a human being, it does not have human personality and it potential to become a human being is subject to the anterior existence of the pregnant woman.

@Brian Madden: it gives SSM as equal to natural reproductive couples, which it can never be. That’s not opinion. That’s nature.
Show me a same sex couple who can produce ‘their’ baby and I’ll rest my case.

@Tom Burke: what are you about? SSM had nothing to do with adoption and fostering as gay people can foster and adoptive irrespective of the result of the SSM referendum. Gay people are fostering and adopting and are reproducing. The SSM was positive for gay people and they are not rushing to India to buy babies like you predicted. Irish women are having abortions and will continue to have them. Forcing them to go to the UK delays the process but the end result will be the same.

@Fiona deFreyne: in the sense that the fertilised ovum, the embryo, the foetus do what all human beings do all the time although at a greater rate than we i.e. Cells divide and grow, specialise, develop and mature right through the time in the womb through birth, childhood, puberty etc until the moment of death the baby in the womb is another human being from the moment of conception. Life processes are the same for all human beings before and after birth That is what scientists of all and no religion believe based on empirical evidence and observation. You keep harping on about religious dogma influencing everyone who does not agree with you. Interestingly, the pro-abortion lobby in the US depicted opposition to abortion as ‘religious dogma, misogyny’. Sound familiar?

@Tom Burke: are infertile couples not natural now? Is that nota side point of your argument?

@Fiona deFreyne: not sure if you meant to respond to me, if you did I think u misread my post.

Poe’s law “without a clear indicator of the author’s intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers or viewers as a sincere expression of the parodied views.”

@WinSomeLoseSome: what a snide question it’s none of your business

@Eddie Nugent: What snide comment? Whats none of my business?

@WinSomeLoseSome: my apologies i was refering to the Risen asking if a commentator was a practicing Catholic, you were tagged by mistake

@Eddie Nugent: no stress : )

@Tom Burke: pregnancy by rape and incest destroys life

@richard fennessy: again I don’t understand your message.

@Tom Burke: sorry to here that but sums up pro birth ye just don’t understand people

@Tom Burke: It’s ok Tom, your first comment already displayed your lack of understanding.

@Larry Doyle: guys if you have something to say, say it.
If the message is rape and incest destroy people I agree. But rape and incest without pregnancy destroy people.
Pregnancy by rape or incest is horrendous but it’s being used as the extreme to bring in abortion.
Look at the abortion stats from the UK.
Most abortions are abortions if convenience.

38% were repeat abortions.

@Tom Burke: No one ever said it was cool and pray (pun intended) you never find yourself or any of your family in a situation where decisions like this have to be made.

@Tom Burke: What business is that of yours??? What about the thousands of children (not fetuses) dying every day from starvation around the world?? They don’t seem to impact on your life so why does a clump of cells in a strangers body???

@Tom Burke:”38% were repeat abortions.” and what of it Tom ? Have you got the medical notes on those ‘repeat abortions’ ? Please show them to us if you have .

@Tom : “Most abortions are abortions if convenience.” You do know that two doctors have to sign off on this,yes? Could you also put some CREDIBLE sources that will prove that it is for ‘convenience’ ? Thanks

@Tom Burke:

It doesn’t have to.

Http://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a50949/raped-at-11-years-old/

It is often a question of attitude and who you listen to. The idea that a single event or even a period in a person’s life can ruin their whole life is a flawed one that is often spouted by those who claim to be speaking and acting in the interests of victims. It may become a self fulfilling prophesy.

Why Germaine Greer said that rape is not the worst thing that can happen to a women she was abused and castigated. Too often there is only one narrative allowed.
Such events do not have to ruin lives.

@Rob Cahill: if I’m driving down the street and I see a man lying by the side of the road and in danger, I will stop to help. I don’t have to know somebody to care about them.

@whiney antis: what about 2 doctors?
If the woman says she’s stressed by the pregnancy, they will sign. It’s not a big decision.

@Tom Burke: have you ever been pregnant ? If not,why do you want to force some woman to go through something that can cause her great physical or mental harm ?

@Rob Cahill: my brother 19 yrs at the time and his girlfriend 17 found themselves in this situation. They had a beautiful baby girl who has 3 kids of her own today.
Why does pregnancy have to be seen as the end of the world?

@whiney antis: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/652083/Abortion_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf

@whiney antis: I’m trying to get people to understand that destroying life is never cool.
Why when an image is presented of a foetus with its distinct human features, those who support abortion, deny its human life?

@Tom Burke: you’re a typical anti.You put up emotional nonsense and put up stats without ever going through it..

Repeat abortions …how many are done due to multiple diagnosis of FFA ? How many years does these statistics go back as far ? Could a young child have been raped in her teens and later on in her 30′s had a termination because of an FFA ?

Clause C is used for most reasons.Were you not listening to the expert a few weeks back where she said that there is a lot of reasons as to why a woman will end her pregnancy? How is it a ‘convenience’ if it is causing her physical and mental distress ?

@Tom Burke:

I guess it depends on how you define convenience. Most abortion take place, based on this survey for reasons other than medical.

The top three could easily be regarded as convenience.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

That comment to whiney

@whiney antis: that’s what tom does. He was the same during SSM referendum. He is one of these people that has his head in the sand. At least 4.000 Irish women are going to UK every year for abortions. This “not in our back yard” approach is ridiculous. Let’s legislate and provide services for Irish women in Ireland.

@Tom Burke: those facts and truths are NOT acceptable to the abortion lobby.

Fran – Clause C in the UK (that is where iRISH WOMEN GO )

the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of
the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of
injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))

Always willing to provide facts..Thanks

Brian – Tom is a boring old fart.A boring old fart who only “cares” fro the non viable embryo/foetus…

@Tom Burke: you know this? What is the wording. Go on you can tell us. Just so we know what we’re voting for.

@Tom Burke: it is fortunate that we have the evidence of real experts with real knowledge and real facts. These are professionally qualified clinicians. I get the impression that they know more about this topic and are far less judgmental and emotive than you are.

There are 2 approaches to this vexed topic. One is rational, considered, informed and non judgmental. The other approach approach is moralistic, condemnatory, judgment, emotive and hyperbolic.

@richard fennessy: Let me tell you about a victim of rape whose mother instead of aborting her gave her up for adoption. The girl was adopted by a loving family. When she learned that she was adopted the girl sought out her birth mother. At the same time her natural mother equally was looking for her daughter. Both were happily reunited. The mother was apprehensive that her daughter would reject her upon knowing why she had given her up for adoption. Not so! Instead the daughter who has since married with children of her own and her mother have become very close. The mother is grateful every day that she allowed her child to live. She now has a loving daughter and is proud grandmother to grandchildren who also would never have lived had she decided to abort her rape baby.

@whiney antis: I wondered how long you would go before the insults start.

@Kay Kehoe: they don’t want to hear these type of stories.

Whiney,

I believe that that clause is not being adhered as was intended and most abortions could be argued to be technically illegal. The CPS will not investigate prosecute because it is seen as not being in the public interest. It is seen as a shortcut and I personally know people have used it in such a way. The clause is meaningless.

@Kay Kehoe- great story.Had me in tears.Thanks.

@Rob Cahill: Don’t tell me you are still spouting the myth that the foetus (medical term for baby in the womb as explained by Dr Varadkar when he said ‘we don’t refer to our tongue as a ‘glossus ‘ why foetus for baby in the womb) is only a ‘ clump of cells’ Scientists have debunked that myth long ago. You are also a ‘clump of cells’ and you are a human being, we hope. Likewise the foetus. Move into the 21st century.

@Tom Burke: Quick Q, how many times have you been pregnant?

@Tom Burke: no I know that, makes for uncomfortable reading for those who are hell-bent on having abortion (right to kill) every unborn human being who to their mind does not fit their view of the ‘ perfect baby in all the perfect circumstances.’ As if there is any such thing as perfection. You and I are not perfect. Happily thanks to our constitution and our laws we have been allowed to be born and live. Some wish to ensure that the biggest ordeal for future generations here will be surviving the nine months between conception and birth, the period in our lives according to the scientists, of most rapid growth and development in all our life. (See the excellent BBC series the Extraordinary Making of you)

@ every “unborn human being” eh ? Our constitution allows around an average of 25 women a year to end their pregnancies,in Ireland.Our constitution allows over 4,000 women to get information on where they can go to get that “protected” embryo/foetus removed from their wombs,in the UK.

@Brian Madden: The medical mastermind behind the US campaign to have unrestricted abortion across all US states admitted that to secure support they had fabricated polls (85% of the public favouring unrestricted abortion; the reality 5% and exaggerated figures for abortions per annum ‘I knew the figures were false.’ Dr Nathanson.The media and the ‘experts ‘ give different figures most unsourced for the numbers travelling to U.K. for abortion. Some say impossible to say as women want to remain anonymous. Others quote often without sources 3000,3000+ 4000, 4000+ . Take your pick. ‘ Repeating the big lie enough convinces the public’ Nathanson.

@Harry Roberts: no facts are acceptable to the abortion lobby other than those they make up. No truths are acceptable especially the scientifically -backed truth that the life of every human being begins at conception. However abortionists like Dr Guttmacher a president of Planned Parenthood has said ‘ let me say something shocking. I am perfectly willing to grant that life begins at conception let’s not pretend that it (abortion) is not a form of killing’.

@Kay – what woman with an unwanted pregnancy cares if “life begins” at conception ? The only thing that she cares about is when she is not pregnant ,anymore..

@Kay Kehoe, but there is no human being or human personality at or near the point of conception.

@Tom Burke: “Why when an image is presented of a foetus with its distinct human features”

Because the “prolife” groups continue to use pictures of extremely rare late term procedures and in some cases still births. Both of which occur when the viability of the fetus is 0% chance of survival. I ask this every time this subject comes up and no one ever answers. If the average abortion which looks like a heavy period btw is so bad, then why do these groups need to show the exaggerated images? BEcause they are not shocking enough to you as is?? And for the millionth time no one is pro abortion , They are pro choice.. Like your brother and his girlfriend had a choice to keep their pregnancy going.

@Kay Kehoe: Oh look everyone another pro liar. Isn’t that a sin got you lot?

@Fiona deFreyne: Would you agree that there is a unique human life near the point of conception?

@Rob Cahill: Yes, alot of abortions are carried out before 10 weeks gestation , however just because the baby isn’t fully formed and is still growing doesent make it less human. As I said before, the level of development does not determine the value of the unborn, my 7 year old is more developed than my 4 year old. Does my 7 yr old have value? Of course not. As Kay has said the scientific consensus is that life begins at conception. At what stage of gestation do you believe the unborn become human and therefore deserve protection?What is the unborn? I would be interested to know. I read these comments with interest,why as a society have we forgotten to have debate and show people respect that have opposing views?

@Alan ; no baby in the womb ,ever. We know that 81% of terminations are done before week 10 and that 72% of them are carried out via the abortion pills.Most of the Irish women that are taking those trips, get them carried out at around that stage.But because they have to get the money together,most will have the surgical procedure..Gestational stages are totally different to born stages…They’re always human….

@Tom Burke: you’re actually trying to say that you don’t trust others to make the decision themselves so you want everyone to decide in advance

@Tom Burke: I don’t agree. There is a potential and contingent future human life.

@Alan: “….as a society we have forgotten to have debate and show people respect that have opposing views?” That isn’t as salient a point as you think. To debate whether or not women can have the freedom to choose, is not a debate I want any part of, and I’m a master debater. This is a debatable topic as much as keeping slavery was. Sure, we could debate it, but lets just do the right thing, and not be total dïcks. Women should have the right to choose, that is what I believe, don’t you?

@Kay Kehoe: and let me tell you my story of my best friend when I was a teenager. At aged 15 she found out she was adopted, she didn’t take it too well. Age 17 she’s found dead. This is a true story. It breaks my heart. Not every adoption is a happy story.

@Brian Madden: not in my back yard?
Explain.
I don’t want abortion in anybody’s back yard.

@Rob Cahill: why do you emphasise nobody is pro abortion?
Deep down are you a little bit uncomfortable with it?

What the fxxx is pro choice?
It’s a fluffy label for those who don’t feel comfortable endorsing abortion.

@whiney antis: I am mildly amused at the number of posters who think that pregnancy is the most terrible misfortune to afflict a woman. Pregnancy is not an illness. It brings recognised and researched medical benefits. Pregnancy, especially before 25 years protects against breast cancer as does breastfeeding; protects also against endometrial and ovarian cancer to name just a few of the researched benefits of pregnancy. I have been following posts on the Journal for a number of weeks. Not once have I heard anyone speak of maternal instinct or maternal bonding. Maybe that is because most posters are male. I suspect some who use female soubriquets are also male.

@Sam Glynn: I agree and am sorry to hear about this. Some however can be happy. Certainly there is nothing happier than a happy reunion with a birth mother who discovers that her decision to keep her child and give it up for adoption has enabled her daughter to grow up, be happily married and give her beautiful grandchildren none of which would have happened without her mother making the generous decision to keep her rape child and have her adopted. Incidentally this rape victim told her story on radio because she was utterly appalled that people were expressing publicly that they wanted people like her to be aborted before they were born. She was shocked and sickened that some think that she, as a person and a mother of two lovely children, should have no right to be born. Horrific

@Kay Kehoe: nobody wanted her to be aborted, that is your usual lies. All people want is for people to have the right to decide for themselves. Without your or my input into the lives of total strangers. By the way I was adopted and really think you have no idea what you’re talking about. I get that you’re biased but there is no need for you to pretend that your outcome is rosy and wonderful by cherry picking. Everyone person is different, every adoption, every pregnancy and it’s circumstances. One hard and fast rule cannot be applied to all circumstances.

@Dave O Keeffe: I agree and have already said that adoption can be a different experience for different people as indeed can any way of life. No, she did think that what those who say that products of rape should be aborted did refer to her as she was and is a product of rape. She even went so far as to say that she wondered if anyone other than herself and her mother knew the circumstances of her conception or if random people could guess perhaps in her demeanour the circumstances. In any event the blithe call for abortion for products of rape during the current debate naturally sent a chill down her spine and was and is deeply upsetting to her and I am sure other survivors of rape.

Kay Kohoe, you invalidly generalise and even universalise from very limited particulars. It is an enormous which you repeat frequently.

@Fran Lonergan: It is not your place to decide a person made pregnant by rape should not have the option of terminating said pregnancy should they wish. Each victim will have their own immediate reaction to being raped, and each victim will have their own ways of long-term management of the event. Your comment shows an utter lack of understanding of the detrimental effect that a single traumatic event can have on some individuals. Not all, but some. And those some must be allowed all options of help to aid their recovery. My mother was made pregnant through rape. She was forced to marry her rapist. You do not know the full circumstance behind a person’s need for abortion services. Save your judgement for those who truly deserve it.

@Kay Kehoe: I was conceived through rape. I am not a rape child. No person conceived through rape is a rape child. Your use of that terminology belies your ignorance regarding the matter. I have spoken to my mother many times about this subject, and what happened to her. So let me tell you what she and I, actually people for whom such a situation is not academic, think about it. All people made pregnant through rape should have the option of continuing with the pregnancy if they wish to do so. Or terminating the pregnancy if they wish to do so. The person, the only person that matters, is the pregnant person. Not you. Not me. Not anyone else reading this. The pregnant person. That’s it.

@Felicity Hensen: *belies your compassion

@Felicity Hensen: I am sorry if my terminology offended you. I was merely recounting what I heard on radio. It was a perspective that I had not thought about before and I thought it was worth recounting in the current debate as this was this person and her mother’s perspective.

@felicity,

Where in my comment did I speak in absolute terms?

@Kay Kehoe: Your terminology did not cause offence. This is not the first time a person conceived through rape has been used to further the agenda of anti-choice people who seem to think that all people conceived through rape will of course say they’re happy that abortion services weren’t available for their mother to avail of. You use a small number of people who choose to speak about an event most people will never talk about, and think this is how all people conceived through rape think. It isn’t. My mother was not allowed to choose to become pregnant. My mother was not allowed choose whether she wanted to stay pregnant. Her choice in the situation is ALL that mattered.

@Fran Lonergan: When you decide abortion services should not be freely available for all who may need to avail of them, you are speaking in absolute terms.

@Keith McDonagh: you don’t seem to realise that there is a separate human being from the moment of conception according to scientific research based on empirical evidence and observation. It doesn’t bother you at all that abortion is the intentional killing of that separate human being? Leading abortionists like Dr Guttmacher , a president of Planned Parenthood has said, ‘ let me say something shocking. I am perfectly willing to grant that life begins at conception. Let’s not pretend it (abortion) is not a form of killing.’ I suspect that you, like most of the posters here have benefited from the constitutional protection for the unborn but see nothing wrong in removing it for future generations. I suppose you also believe in equality just not for future generations!

@Kay K – It doesn’t bother us in the slightest that the majority of those “human beings” never even make it to utero..It also doesn’t seem to bother the “pro life” movement in the slightest…It also isn’t a separate human being.It’s not even considered a ‘human being’ when around 99% of terminations are carried out…Oh.And it also doesn’t bother us in the slightest to what is going on in America,regards abortion..

@Francis Mc Carthy: Re US most of your arguments including your slogan Pro choice come from the US campaign hardly by coincidence. What you say re not aborting human beings does not accord with the views expressed by leading abortionists like Dr Guttmacher who freely admit that human life begins at conception and that abortion is killing. You cannot kill what is not alive.

@Tom Burke: Really… didn’t the Vatican Bank launder money for the mafia ?Pretty sure the mob have knock over quite a few banks…

@ Jason true.

In addition, some bishops and priests have had to “borrow” Dioscesan funds paid for by church donors so as to compensate victims of clerical child sexual abuse.

@Fiona deFreyne: Ha tony. That’s how I knew it was you. That word ‘dogma’ let you down. See between you and FIONA, it’s has to be the most used word on the journal. Obsessed tony, you really are!

@Caz 17: If you are not familiar with common words, then perhaps you should read more.

@Caz 17, really does one human being have a monopoly on a single word?

I am surprised that a dogmatic and doctrinaire person like you would see the word “dogma” as in any way unique or solipsistic.

@Fiona deFreyne: nah tony. Nobody got monopoly on one word. It’s just a massive relief that there ain’t two such massive tw@ts in the world. Just you gender shifting.

Thanks for your insightful input there Mitch. I’ll go read more.

@Caz 17, keep up your contribution. You will persuade people to change their views with the quality of your arguments and with your reasonable attitude.

@Caz 17: I find that commentators who accuse people of multiple accounts usually are guilty of the same.

@Fiona deFreyne: so how would you go about convincing the large number of people who support 1st trimester abortion to vote repeal without constitutional protection for 2nd & 3rd ?

@Fiona deFreyne: change who’s views tony? I didn’t attempt to contribute anything abortion related. I merely had a little laugh at the repetitious way you do things. Be that as tony or be that as Fiona. I have no intention of trying to change minds. I leave that to you. You clearly have too much time on your hands.

@Deborah Behan: Do you Deborah? Well ha Ive been rumbled!!! I got a laugh out of a recent comment of yours. Complaining about your public sector job and the pressures and wages. Yet you comment all day every day about absolutely anything. I have a life, a job albeit in the private sector, a husband, kids and pals. I do not have multiple accounts as I couldn’t give a rats ass about what you or anybody else thinks. My point being, I more often than not, haven’t the time to comment. Goes with the job and the life. It’s a sacrifice I can happily make.

@lavebeer, by leaving modified statutory protection in place.

@Caz 17, I can understand that you on here to insult and to attack, not to argue, debate, persuade or to advocate.

@Fiona deFreyne: not a strong opener really – nothing to stop fringe elements of a coalition from naming their price to change that statute. You could of course argue that point for anything. Water in more recent times and the clamour to add that to the constitution

@Fiona deFreyne: very true Fiona.
Also true that most sexual abuse is by family members. Your point being?

@Fiona deFreyne: you confuse volume and incidence.

@Fiona deFreyne: Roman Catholic voters you mean Irish citizens exercising their democratic rights, your really scraping the barrel and losing the debate, trying to introduce a fundamentalist element to this debate.