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THE TWO TRADE UNIONS representing Ireland’s secondary school teachers have criticised plans announced by education minister Ruairí Quinn to reform the Junior Cert system – with the traditional end-0f-third-year exams set to be dumped by 2020.
Both the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) and the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland (ASTI) criticised the plans, which were announced by Quinn yesterday, and which will see the terminal exams replaced with more regular assessments graded by a pupil’s own class teacher.
“We are disappointed that teachers as practitioners were not specifically consulted with on these proposals,” TUI general secretary John MacGabhann criticised, saying the failure to engage with teachers was ”poor practice in the formulation of educational policy”.
MacGabhann also suggested that the moves were driven more by budgetary concerns than educational need, and said the union now had serious concerns about teachers’ workloads when the changes were taken in the context of resource cutbacks and reduced staffing allocations.
His ASTI counterpart Pat King argued that the move to continual assessment, which will now be in the hands of a student’s teacher, was a step backward from the current regime where papers are marked by an independent teacher who does not know the student involved.
The current examination model was “a credible, independent, objective and fair examination and certification system,” King said, arguing that having a child’s own teacher grade their marks was a regressive move.
There was a mixed response from opposition parties to the moves, with Fianna Fáil’s education spokesman Charlie McConalogue saying the proposed timetable for the rollout of the new systems – which will adopted on a phased basis over the next eight years – showed a failure to plan properly.
“If this reform plan was prepared thoroughly with the extensive consultation of all the relevant stake-holders, there would be absolutely no need to wait until 2020 for its full implementation,” McConalogue argued.
Sinn Féin’s Jonathan O’Brien was more positive, however, and argued that Quinn deserved credit “for implementing radical changes to an exam that is of key importance to young people during their first four years at secondary school”.
O’Brien expressed concern that teachers may not have the adequate resources to assess their own students’ work – a response which Quinn yesterday played down, arguing that teachers already graded their own students’ work in summer tests at the end of First Year and Second Year.
Student representatives were less qualified in their support for the reforms. The Irish Secondary Students’ Union welcomed the plans, which follow the union’s submission of its own programme for educational reforms last year.
ISSU president Dylan Grace said he was particularly glad “to see that science will become one of the core subjects in the new standardised tests to be taken at second year”.
“Science education is a key building block for future economic growth, and this will ensure that all students have a basic grounding in scientific principles which will benefit them for the rest of their lives,” he said.
IBEC’s head of education policy Tony Donohoe was similarly welcoming of the plans.
“If done right, this could prove to be the most important education reform of recent years. It presents a real opportunity to move away from the dominance of rote learning and support the development of critical thinking in students,” Donohoe said.
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Looks like expecting teachers to move and change with times as well as the students only ever seems to bring the same response from teacher unions ,” we need more pay because of the workload”, teachers pay , terms and conditions are pretty good in Ireland by any measure so they should just get on with any reforms and do their extra “bit” for the country in these tough times.
How can anyone take teachers and their unions seriously anymore? This is the same crowd that voted to allow new teachers to work for far less than incumbent teachers. Rather than take a small pay cut, they prefer that new colleagues do the same work for less pay. So much for social justice. I for one will never have any sympathy for them anymore. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Very profound answer. Full time teachers who taught prior to 2010 are well paid and have good conditions. Try teaching with 20% less pay (before increments are taken into consideration) than older teachers and getting paid for 15.33 hours instead of the actual full 22 hours while being expected to come early, Stay late and give away all your lunch breaks to extra curricular activities.
It’s fine for some people to look at teachers and say “they have a cushy job”, but someone like me, who started teaching last year, with no sign of a job for longer than a maternity leave cover, being expected to commit their lives completely to what should be counted as a part time, fixed term job while working 2 other jobs just to make ends meet to sacrifice even more with nothing to make my life easier is laughable.
It’s people like you with uncontemplated opinions like yours that ruin the democratic process in this country. Grow up a little bit and look at what’s actually going on.
Having said all this, I AGREE with the ministers proposals, as there is no question that one big exam at the end of a course spanning several years is very uneducational. It’s about time the Junior and Leaving Cert exams were abolished and replaced with continual assessment, and I will happily correct my own students work with integrity if it’s for their benefit.
@rodrigo
What vote? there was no vote, the new terms were brought in by the government, teachers had no say in the matter.
Diarmuid, you sound like such a nice teacher – it gives me hope – and I agree it is unfair to be attacking teachers or public sector workers or any other worker – divide and conquer eh?
As a parent I want to see schools being kinder and less stressful places for our young people – I am aware that not all teachers are as enlightened as you – there is a conservative and authoritarian element and they need to understand that we must have a more enlightened and kind system with basic respect and learner-centred pedagogy for our young people and Government has a role to make sure that every single (publicly paid) teacher must do this as part of their job – it should not be a choice.
@diarmuid , “it’s people like you and your uncontemplated opinions that ruin the democratic process in this country”…….seriously for an educated man that’s just an unbelievably stupid comment….by having an opinion that you don’t agree with means the opinion is “uncontemplated”? ….”ruin the democratic process in the country” …..what do you mean . I would suggest you take your issues up with your teachers unions , I have friends who are teachers in holland , by any comparison teachers here have good pay and conditions. As a country every sector of society has to readjust to new realities , trying to reform the education is one part and while I agree that it is unfair to tar all teachers with the same brush. , especially as the sham agreement that is Croke park protects the old boys club more than the newcomers , it is not unreasonable to expect reforms , especially as we need the education system to modernise and help steer the country into the future. I am sorry to hear that it is difficult sector to get a good start in but not all teachers are in the same difficult boat as yourself and there is plenty of room for reforms in education. I respect you mightn’t agree with me…but ” ruining the democratic process in the country” , give me a break.
@Dave Hammond: “their extra “bit” for the country in these tough times”. Current staff have taken a paycut, bigger workload, less resources, less government funding and more kids in the classroom. When you child comes home and says “Nah Dad I still don’t understand what the teacher is doing” just blame us again saying we don’t do enough with your kids. With more and more pupils per class, sometimes over 30, that’s 1 mins 20 seconds per kid. Take away registration, setting homework, dealing with bad manners thats roughly 1 minute per child. That’s why your kid doesn’t and won’t understand.
We’ve taken our share noth in the classroom and in the wages. It’s dumb people like you who think that we arrive in gold plated cars, smoke cigars in the staff room while sipping tea from small cups with our pinky raised while the magic elves who create resources in the evenings and weekend do all our work for us. You just want someone to blame for your own probably crappy job or unemployed life and you’re blaming a target. A target who didn’t get rich in the good times, never lived the good life when everyone else did.
well said conor!
@conor , thank you for your comment , surprising that you have to stoop to stuff like “dumb people like you” , “probable crap job” or ” probably unemployed”…..you are way off the mark on all so do try not to be so assumptive, I’m educated to Masters Degree , I have run some very successful businesses both in Ireland and overseas —but this forum is not about me , the forum is on the teachers unions response to the reform announcements made yesterday. Now I totally understand that you as a teacher are probably not going to agree with my comments , but seriously a red thumb would suffice , no need to get personal and play the man and not the ball , especially with condescending attitudes like I must be unemployed , that shows you up as being just rude and narrow minded kind of person unable to debate the issue. I grew up at a time of class ratio of more than 30 was common , it’s far from ideal for sure , and I am aware of the cuts in resources and pay suffered by the whole country ( not just teachers) . I didn’t suggest anywhere that you enjoyed gold standard privileges or that I apportion any blame on teachers ,that stuff is all in your wildly assumptive world where I’m a loser and your profession is above any form of critism. I wasn’t looking for agreement and didnt expect any from teachers like you —I was pointing out that in the difficult times the country is facing there are some pretty tough things for all in the country to face up- having to row in with some exam reforms is pretty mild stuff compared to the havoc in some sectors.
Teachers are just worried about actually having some accountability when it comes to their work.
Where’s the accountability in having them grade their own students’ work?
The difficulty of the tests and the results are monitored, easy
Sham. Are you having a laugh? Are you trying to tell me that the teachers just sit back and accept all the government throw at them? The teachers attitude was, if we don’t agree to the governments decision to shaft our newly qualified colleagues, then they’ll threaten to cut our wages! Therefore it’s best to allow them to get away with this, and to hell with the consequences. As I said before. Greedy selfish people, that are in it for the good wages and fantastic holiday entitlements.
Rodrigo – please state your teaching qualifications and experience to date. If you have none, then you really have no grounds stating that teachers are only in it for the great wages and holidays. Teaching is an absaloutley exhausting profession. I’d love to see you teach my classes for a week.
Penelope it doesn’t take much to become a teacher so don’t try to make it out as if it’s some long hard road. While teaching may be exhausting, you have a long stretch in the evening to gear yourself up for the next day and if you teach well then you won’t be exhausted. My mum was a teacher, a long time ago, before bench marking. She’s confirmed, it is, was and always will be an easy job. Even when you care about your pupil’s results.
I would be worried about the lack of objectivity. We all knew pupils who the teachers loved or disliked whose marks were affected by their relationship with teacher. I had one teacher who hated me-never knew why but she always gave me a low mark.whereas in the state objective exam I came top in the year. It will also leave teachers open to intimidation or tempted to raise everyone’s marks so that they look like a great teacher
Thanks for stating what should be the obvious Orla. I’d imagine a weighted continuous assessment/final exam would be the way to go. Checks and balances are all very well but objectivity is vital. We do need reform of the system though, a living system adapts and evolves.
the history extended essay for the leaving cert is marked externally so they could do it for other CAs
Having them mark their own students work hardly signals the downfall in quality, internationally university degrees have been awarded for years based upon a lecturer marking their own students work, both through continuous assessment and a terminal exam.
Indeed, a lot of teacher-bashing here. It’s gobsmacking: these are the people who look after your child for up to 7 hours a day for about half the year, probably giving a lot of children ideas about discipline, responsibility, and other non-academic concepts that a lot of parents couldn’t be bothered passing on, and when they ask to be consulted about a major reform that will seriously impact the way they work all they get is abuse. “Disgusting” is the only way I can describe it.
It’s funny how they’re not held accountable for the education they provide to their pupils. Kind of strange considering that’s exactly what their job is.
Ian, are we talking about the same teachers that consulted with no one, when they decided to shaft their newly qualified colleagues? By taking that utterly selfish decision, teachers lost the last shred of respect myself and many others ever had for them. How can you possibly involve greedy selfish people in a decision making process that involves our children? They have proved once and for all, that they are in only in teaching for the good wages and fantastic holiday entitlements.
Here here
Yes well Ian as parents we do encourage our children and young adults to be respectful and reflective, but we far too often have to defend them against the disrespectful treatment they receive from authoritarian teachers and unfairly implemented disciplinary procedures, and bemoan the uneven teaching standards because a whole school approach to effective, constructivist teaching rarely exists or if it does some teachers feel free to ignore it.
I am not saying this is a majority of teachers, but the very fact of how random it is and down to the style of the individual teacher is very wrong – publicly paid people should follow the school’s ‘positive’ teaching guidelines or get disciplined. Of course, with students having no voice whatsoever on how they feel about their learning environment, this never comes to light except through hearing a group of friends talking about that bad or mean teacher, and the result is that students do not do well in that subject or become disaffected, or stressed.
The stress on young people from their school environment and the way they are treated is OUR problem that we have to deal with. If you think you all do such a great job of looking after (it’s supposed to be facilitating their learning actually) our children and teaching them the things their parents can’t be bothered to, then why does this recent report on a survey on the mental health of 14,000 Irish adolescents show that they describe School as being by far the biggest stressor in their lives (not just exams, which is a different category choice)? See page 29: http://www.headstrong.ie/sites/default/files/My%20World%20Survey%202012%20Online.pdf
See this article from a young person – everything we have run or attended that gives a voice to young people via my work brings the exact same plea from young people:
http://www.spunout.ie/health/Healthy-mind/Opinion/Schools-need-to-address-the-real-issues
To the people saying teachers voted to ‘shaft’ incoming teachers by agreeing they’d be paid less, I think you might want to check your facts and provide some evidence of that. I’ve been a primary teacher for the last four years and am currently training to become an educational psychologist. I don’t recall any such vote at either primary or second level but if I’m proven wrong, I’ll hold my hands up. As for the lads saying it’s a cushy job. It isn’t. Particularly at Second Level. Try it.
As for over inflated incremental pay… that’s a joke right? Before I took my career break I was earning less than I’d been earning five years ago when I started. I’ll come back to my job in two years time (which i love, btw, and am very fortunate to have) with (touch wood) a pretty expensive Masters degree under my belt and chances are I’ll be earning less again! I’m not complaining, I just wish folks would stop assuming teachers have it handy!
I do admit that I’ve lived outside of Ireland for the past three years and so am a bit out of touch with the situation on the ground (benchmarking, pensions, Croke Park, etc.), but I stick to my basic tenet that teachers should be consulted about big changes like this that will impact their working practices in a major way.
What a lot of the discussion here seems to show is that a worrying amount of people think going over the heads of professionals is a good thing “if it gets things done”. Nobody seems to care about social cohesion any more.
Maybe I’m mistaken but didn’t the teachers propose changing the jc?
It’s def about the money….no exams in June so no extra pay for supervision and corrections of papers!!! As assessments will be thru the academic year and finals in may they can’t look for extra pay!
Additionally its about accountability…like the majority of people in the workforce!!
I’m a teacher, a newly qualified one and I don’t oppose this badly needed reform, I do hope that Mr Quinn follows through with his promise to resource this new JC properly however!!
Paula what’s your thoughts on the possible subjective correction of students CA? Teacher of the year was on the radio yesterday saying it was a potential banana skin but like you agreed that reform was needed and that this was probably a step forward!
Will the get a pay rise for this extra work
Don’t know why ya got so many red thumbs, it’s a fair question!
The answer is no. Teachers are already overworked and underpaid and they will get no extra pay for this extra work. Principals are struggling to cope with losses of posts and staff as it is. I can’t see this being effective at all. However, it will save the government money as they won’t have to pay printers, couriers, supervisors, scribes, markers, collators etc etc, landing the burden instead on the schools.
But at what cost?
Teachers will end up teaching to the exams, particularly when they know what’s coming up, in order to boost the reputation and standing of the schools in national league tables to the point where all schools will end up at a similar level.
Jeez a lot of teacher badgers out there! I think the JC needs to be changed but I would prefer of it was independently corrected to prevent bias!
*bashers not badgers! :0)
As with any change, if you have people from all sides involved, the change is brought in a lot easier. Surely Quinn should have discussed proposed changes with teachers and parents before finalising his reforms!!
Fair play to Quinn, this must be a good move if teachers are moaning about it. Consultation is exactly the reason nothing gets done in this country. The unions would like to be consulted on what extra benefits they can extract from the change and how they can do less for more!
Dullard !!! I’m embarrassed for you . Imagine consulting those who actually know what they are talking about , actually implement the programmes , teach the classes . I’ve a much better suggestion ; why don’t we allow only ill informed populist outsiders with no hands on educational experience, like yourself, to be the only ones s allowed to make all the decisions about educating
the Irish into the future . Jesus wept
On the continent the teachers mark their pupil’s tests. Their results and the difficulty of the tests are scrutinised and any suspicions of bias are reviewed.
Spoof
That’s why they’re called “tests” and not “exams” As a teacher I find the comments about the “extra workload2 a bit disappointing. I don’t think the extra workload will amount to much and it’ll consist entirely of form-filling and other mindless bureaucracy. This is because a conscientious teacher spends a lot of time setting and correcting work anyway. The difference is that at the moment this is formative assessment, designed to give students an idea of their standard, and to offer feedback about how they can approve i.e. it’s low stakes and there’s little incentive for parents etc to help.
Most of the teachers I’ve spoken to are against the abolition of the Junior Cert and the move to CA because of the position it will put us in. We actually prefer having independent assessment of the students’, and by extension our own, work.
Besides CA there are other worries about the proposal. I was shocked to hear Ruairi Quinn say that schools will tailor the range of courses offered ” to meet the needs of the communities they serve.” I didn’t know that schools served communities. Will this mean a child from a disadvantaged area will study a different range of subjects thatn one in a privileged private school? What if that child is academically able? How will their educational and life chances be affected by having their schooling tailored to their “community” ‘s percieved “needs”?
Arent university exams marked by the people who teach the courses? Have never heard that this was unsatisfactory
Simple enough to put procedures in place to ensure marking is fair.
I never heard of parents having any influence over university teachers, in fact parents have almost zero influence over university policy.
It’s good secondary school practice to have parental involvement, that’s the key difference, parental influence will be the issue for teachers. Can you it see a decent percent of parents attempting to influence teachers?
As a teacher working abroad at the moment in a very similar system to what is being proposed, I have to say that the fears about objectivity and workload are less founded than might think. With regard to the former, the most difficult aspect is not objectivity but harmonisation. That is, teachers usually mark fairly (and must be transparent) but standards might vary within a school. To achieve this many more departmental meetings would be required. This is virtually impossible in the Irish system because the week is so overloaded as it is. Teachers in Ireland would many more periods i the week than their European counterparts (but few weeks). Regarding assessment, teachers always assess so it would probably be no more difficult than collating what one already does (except you’d have more flexibility about project work etc.) In my situation I have a single excel sheet where homework, projects, tests and participation are weighted to give quarterly grades. The same sheet could easily be used by others. I think that it may reduce workloads.
Were the same people not long ago criticizing the Junior and Leaving Cert’s in favor of a continuous assessment system. I guess the wheels fell of the exam correction fee’s gravy train without ‘consultation’ too quickly. Someone call the Union!
I notice nobody has raised the issue that students themselves were not specifically consulted either, though any time the state does consult with adolescents they express a strong preference for taking away the unfairness and stress of doing exams and being judged on that one performance, and they say they would prefer continuous assessment – but hey, they are only the students, what would they know?
Students, teachers and parents all need to be involved more in decision-making on curricular change – they all have a valid and distinct view. To believe that teachers are the only ones that know best is an insult to young people and parents. If that is the case, then why do the teachers unions and teachers online here support keeping the Junior Certificate exam when students do not and some of the countries with the best educational outcomes (eg PISA scores) have continuous assessment.
Education needs a shake-up alright. I have just put my son through the Junior Cert and it was a stressful and pointless process. The whole of the third year was taken up with cramming and rote learning for the exam – that is a tragedy when you have beautiful vibrant intelligent young people to call this learning. A waste of human potential and what does that exam even qualify you for any more anyway?
Let’s look at Finland, top of the PISA scores (in the world I think) for the kind of stuff that bothers people (literacy, numeracy, science etc) – personally I think higher order thinking would seek to facilitate the development of creative independent thinking in our young people – this is supposed to be the skill for the modern age isn’t it?
So what are the hallmarks of the Finnish system:
–very high quality of teachers (must be masters level and above) and ongoing high level of pedagogical training (how to teach!)
–no formal learning before age 7
–commitment to a comprehensive education system with equality for all, attended from age 7-16
–no national exam system or school ranking systems- after 16 they go onto other academic or vocational colleges
–teachers given a lot of involvement in developing curricula in local schools, as well as students
–don’t start formal education until age 7
–small classroom sizes – max 12
–least number of class hours in the ‘developed world’ and no or very little homework
–informal and friendly environment created in schools (eg teachers on first name basis, no uniforms)
–continuous assessment, with emphasis on student self-assessment (as well as teacher)
–great emphasis put on trust between student and teacher and well-being
–students take an active role in designing their own learning activities
–students expected to work collaboratively in teams on projects
–’constructivist’ approach (students construct their own knowledge facilitated by teachers)
–school environment, assessment, learning outcomes have emphasis on encouragement and support for student
Our own school system is a million miles away from this, but perhaps this move is a good start, especially if it will be a more learner-centred approach.
Despite what the teachers unions may think in this country, other countries may show us a better way, and students also should have a say: according to a recent survey on adolescent mental health in Ireland (engaging 14,000 young people) they rate education as by far the highest stressor in their lives (and not just exams, which was a separate category) – see p. 29 of this report http://www.headstrong.ie/sites/default/files/My%20World%20Survey%202012%20Online.pdf but far be it from me to suggest that they know how they experience THEIR education better than the teachers unions.
They met a lot of resistance 30 years ago in Finland when they decided to reform their whole system, but nobody there would criticise it now – people go there to study it!
You’re right Michelle. We should look to the Finnish model for inspiration.
Sorry, that classroom size is 20, not 12!
If they don’t have state exam in June can they stay in school till end of that month the holidays are way too long the kids would even agree they are bored out of there minds there needs to be changes more parents are working full time and others are out of work the kids are hanging round house cos lets face it who has money to keep them entertained these days and if u factor in our rubbish weather, lack of amenities and all the red tape with them getting non- existent summer jobs It makes for a long summer of moody miserable teenagers
working full time
The kids LOVE being off for the summer! Who doesn’t???!!!
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