Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
HUNDREDS OF NEWLY qualified teachers have no way of getting probated because of a new scheme called Droichead.
One teacher told TheJournal.ie that after four years of college she has been left with nowhere to go to get her Dip.
There’s going to be a huge amount of angry newly qualified teachers coming out in June with no way of getting probated.
“The Department of Education have introduced a new probation method, ditched the old version and failed to get the principals on board before introducing it across the board.”
However, the Department said 257 primary schools and 253 post primary schools have signed up to the Droichead process. In a statement the department said:
The INTO issued a directive to its members not to co-operate with or participate in Droichead from 1 July 2016.
The spokesperson for the Irish National Teachers Organisation INTO told TheJournal.ie that the union did issue a directive and that it’s more accurate to say the schools that the Department referred to are trained in the Droichead process and are in a position to implement it if the directive is lifted.
The old programme saw outside inspectors from the Department coming into schools and paying visits to teachers.
In the original Droichead plan it was proposed that principals should take the role of inspectors and sign off on teachers but the INTO said that wasn’t possible as many principals also taught and it wasn’t a realistic workload. That was why the INTO put a directive in place.
A revised version, Droichead 2, which doesn’t expect principals to carry out the work has been recently published by Teaching Council but the council is still awaiting clarification from the Department of Education about resources.
The INTO spokesperson added that the professional probation should be done away with and an induction programme that supports new teachers should be put in place instead.
“Modern teachers are spending four years in college. The teachers have already had to perform for an inspector and probation doesn’t reflect the modern classroom.”
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Lots of jobs have probation periods and continuing KPI measurement (key performace indicators) on a quarterly or yearly basis.
Why should teaching be any different?
@Tony Gordon: seems excessive given the amount of teaching practice in the degree. Common route would be a BA (4 years) prof. Masters (2 years). So 7 years later and you are still not fully qualified. Any other profession with 7 years lead in has much higher financial rewards.
@Tony Gordon: Plus I always find it crazy that in the public sector, a perfectly acceptable option is to flat out refuse to follow instructions from management with 0 repercussions.
@ tony they are not. KPI for schools are called WSE (whole school evaluation). All school reports can be accessed online. Droichead is all about cost saving but they paint it up as giving more autonomy to schools. The department don’t have the personnel now since the crash and all the retirements, to probate and do whole school Inspections. Now they want principals to do the probationing, which I think is not necessarily a bad thing. At least they get to see, more regularly, the teacher they may wish to hire on a fixed term contract and decide if they are worth it. Leaving inspectors to do the job of whole school inspections. Even these are becoming less common, with schools expected to do school self evaluation instead.
@Tony Gordon: I’m currently doing a masters in primary education and over the course I’ve had over 22 weeks teaching in primary schools under exam like conditions (planning, paperwork, teaching, reflecting and inspections). I’ve already been inspected 11 times now by 7 different inspectors over my three teaching placements.
What INTO are thinking is why do we have to be seen in exam like conditions two more times, because it does not reflect the work of the modern teacher. It makes more sense for a principal to mentor new teachers under standard teaching conditions and observe and advise them during their first year.
@Darren Sheils: Come clean about how often a WSE inspection happens. For the hours worked it’s a phenomenally well paid job
@Tony Gordon: What is known as probation in Primary Teaching is incomparable to private sector probation. After having done 22 weeks of school placement during my masters ,whereupon I will have had numerous inspections, the current system still requires me to have further inspections after I am fully qualified-a measure which is draining resources as the department are currently responsible for this. Having worked in the private sector also, probationary periods never meant someone inspecting me by shadowing me at my desk and going through all of the paperwork I was expected to have prepared. You cannot compare the two. The suggested measures put forward by the teaching council would possibly bring probation in teaching somewhat in line with the private sector.
@Conor Power: no different in many professions, so again why should teaching be any different.
I have all my qualifications, I am still expected to achieve my KPI and am set yearly objectives that I must demonstrate.
Just because you have a degree, masters or PHD it doesn’t mean you are performing in your job
@Darren Sheils: WSE, that would be equivalent to a companies overall performance, but objectives and KPI can be individualised as it should be.
No one should be above inspection for performance in their job.
@Nigel: because continual assessment and continuous improvement should be at the centre of everything we all do.
Just because you do this assessment during your training does not preclude your employer from assessing your performance.
@Cathal: I go into school at 8.30 and the earliest I leave is 5. I do after school activities 3 days a week which means it’s after 6 on those days. Phenomenally well paid? If you had a look at my payslip you’d take your comment back in an instant
@Cliodhna O Neill: I am fully qualified for my profession, I am subject to continual assessment, performance inspections and KPI.
There is nothing unique in being a teacher that makes it any different.
Too many poor performing teachers hidden in schools and we have all experienced them, regardless of your qualifications.
We all do placements, we all do assessments, but employers have the right to check someone’s performance AFTER they are hired.
There is no defence to not doing it
@Tony Gordon: plus I might add, in my 45 years I have never met anyone who came out of collage with a full skill set to carry out all aspects of their profession.
Lots of learnings to be gained once you join the working world. And if anyone thinks otherwise as the finish collage they are up their own backside.
@Tony Gordon:
The question goes back further than “why should it be different to the private sector?”
The first thing you’d need is to set the KPIs. I’ve yet to hear a reasonable set of KPIs for teaching at any level that are not subject to massive bias and/or manipulation.
Any suggestions?
@Tony Canning: So your argument is that the KPIs being set are incorrect for teacher evaluation rather than who performs that evaluation?
Then, are not the INTO fighting the wrong battle?
EVERY job requires continuous evaluation of employees, regardless of their original qualifications. Nobody (at least in the private sector) is immune to such a process.
It is even more important when we as a society are placing trust in primary school teachers to teach our young children. There is no “natural” measurable output. A salesman does not require formal supervision as the manager can assess them by their sales and by customer feedback. For a teacher, you cannot simply look at pupils grades as they are set by the teacher themselves.
@Tony Gordon: I am in no way saying teachers should not be probated, of course every profession should be probated. But the current way, is in no way comparable to the probation periods in the private sector. I have experienced both.
Also placements in other degrees for professions in the private sector are not subject to inspections like teaching-I completed a 6 month placement as part of my Bcomm and I was never inspected by anyone. In fact, the workload for just 5 weeks of teaching placement was completely overwhelming in comparison to my 6 months placement in private sector.
Assessment of performance is a completely different matter to probation. Again, I have not said that teachers performance should not be assessed. Every profession should be subject to performance assessment.
@Alan Lawlor: That’s not what I’ve said AT ALL.
These conversations usually continue with people making assumptions that if you appear to be defending teachers you must be a teacher.
Yes – I trained as a teacher – but before that I had 13 years of first working in private sector. I’ve done limited work as a teacher and have worked since in education related jobs as well as other work in the private sector. I hope never to have to work as a teacher again.
What a lot of people are saying here is based on their own experience. Very often the suggestion is that in the private sector there is some kind of harmonious KPIs – simply not true. In most jobs it’s little more than a sit down with the boss every year with HR developed questions and everyone knowing their place.
So, to what I AM saying –
Teaching should not be free from measurement during their work. What I am asking is if anyone can suggest a set of KPIs, which by definition should be free from bias and completely unambiguous measures.
The basics of teaching is to facilitate learning. KPIs should surely be a measure of that then yes? How will that be demonstratable? Exams for 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 year olds? Who sets the exams? Who would correct exams? The unbiased way would be state set exams – who would pay for that? What other potential KPIs can you suggest?
@Tony Gordon: Tony, i am all for continuous assessment of teachers as there is so much at stake. By freeing up inspectors from inspecting newly qualified teachers again right after we have qualified, the inspectors would be free to do more evaluations of other teachers and schools and possibly improve standards.
Like you said we all have had teachers who mightnt have been the best but they all went through the current system. So that is why the system might need changing.
@Nigel: so Nigel, by this logic, hi you’re just finished collage, great, here’s your job, your in classroom 4, off you go, see you in a year or so (because you covered it all in collage)
Pure madness!
@Tony Gordon: No that’s not his logic. Stop misrepresenting what people are saying.
The teacher training should QUALIFY you for a teaching job. Just as any other degree should qualify you for that particular career path.
Your suggestion is that without doing a Dip OTJ that there would be no OTJ learning and no support. This simply isn’t true.
@Cliodhna O Neill: but not every teacher has a master…so there are new teachers with less experience than those who have. Should there be a different ‘probation period’ depending on qualifications?
@Tony Gordon:
Newly Qualified Teachers want to do probation, it’s the inspectors who’ve started refusing to inspect them. Teachers understand it’s too important a job not to have oversight.
@Amor: and you get 3 months off during the summer. The hours you describe above seem like a part time job. You wouldn’t last in the private sector. And as for the pay, nobody twisted your arm and you decided to enter the profession. Get out if you are not happy with the pay or quit complaining. You have an easy job.
@Tony Gordon: it’s college.. not collage.. your autocorrect must have got you twice there I’d say..
@Tony Canning: probation and inspection is nothing to do with OTJ training, stop misrepresenting me!
@Tony Gordon: Then try being clear about what you’re saying.
@Ronan Emmett: I actually get two months off in the summer and I enjoy every day of them!! I deserve them too, as does every other teacher because we work damn hard! You’re right, nobody twisted my arm, not in the slightest. I love my job and I have never ever once regretted my decision to become a teacher. But it is irritating when people who aren’t teachers, and who have no experience whatsoever of teaching, feel qualified to talk about our profession. We absolutely do not work “part time” and we certainly do not have an “easy job”. Empty vessels make the most noise!!! If you think teaching is so easy then go ahead and train as a teacher !!
Principals*
@Tadhg Ó Dálaigh: remember he is your pal.
@tadhg read that too. Journalism gone to the dogs when basic stuff like that can’t be corrected. Blame the teachers though!!
Such a misinformed article.
It’s also principal not principle.
@C Mac Aodha: such a shame people aren’t willing to look at the bigger picture, and the majority of INTO members who voted against didn’t know the benefits droichead could bring.
I’m training to be teacher. My subjects are French and English. I have been inspected 4 times already this year alone. So probation seems redundant when our inspectors are so thorough at every step. If you don’t meet the mark you can’t advance. Why then put even more obstacles in our way to become qualified?
@Seigneur Leigh: English and French? This article is about primary teachers. Are secondary teachers moaning about being their performance being checked as well?
@Seigneur Leigh: I do not agree with your opinion. Four planned for teaching inspections ( that last an hour each time and on a smaller timetable compared to a much busier timetable for practicing teachers ) do not prepare any person for the real teaching world.
The probationary period also helps us settle into the culture if the school we are working in because they are all different.
@Seigneur Leigh: so what makes it ok for you not to be assessed during your probation period when you get your job?
This is normal practice in almost every other job?
It’s anything but redundant.
@Tony Gordon: The point Unite is making is that you go through things to a level during studies and the on-the-job inspections are going over old ground and cost time, effort and money that might be better spent elsewhere.
From your other comments it looks like you want to see an ongoing measurement of teacher performance. There’s also no doubting that people don’t learn something on the job.
There’s a couple of problems there. First, you have to set the KPIs. I’ve never heard of a set of KPIs for teaching that would not be subject to manipulation, bias or favouritism. Which is a problem seeing as you need KPIs to be none of these things.
Second, the idea that you need to measure what people have leared on the job is problematic in that it suggests that their 3rd level education doesn’t prepare them for teaching. If that’s an issue then it’s teacher training that needs a change and not on the job measurement.
@Tony Canning: INTO of course – not Unite.
@Tony Canning: Collage prepares you for your working life in a profession, but if you think that’s where learning your trade ends, then you are a poor employee.
So KPIs for teaching maybe difficult, so let’s just not bother with objectives, inspection and improvement for teachers…..because unlike any other profession….they just don’t need it do they.
On the job inspections do not cover old ground, they ensure people are performing as they should (as employees, not students) and more over these should be dynamic, unannounced, and varied in nature to ensure teachers are performing.
As for KPI and objectives being subject to manipulation, well anyone found doing such should be subject to gross misconduct and dismissed.
@Tony Gordon: Of course it’s not where it ends. And I’m not suggesting that it should nor that teachers should not be evaluated. I’m suggesting that in a job like teaching, as with many other jobs, the QUALIFYING is not left to OTJ. That is the area I’m talking about with covering old ground.
In terms of teacher development in the job – that’s where KPIs come in – and should continue beyond an initial probationary period.
To try to summarise my point more concisely: teachers’ qualifying should all be done at tertiary education so that teachers can come into a teaching job like any other – under a probationary period. That period should be supported and monitored to ensure that the teacher is up to the job and that the school/teaching council is supporting them. After the probation, there should be an ongoing review process that measures KPIs. In some ways a lot of this is already done (though not in enough of a formal structure and with a silly level of variability)
The big question overhanging that would be what those KPIs should be? The reason I’m directly asking you about that is that you’re the one that brought up KPIs and are drawing parallels to how it’s done in private sector and I have never in any of these threads seen anyone come up with KPIs which can measure a teacher.
@Tony Canning: So teaching cannot be measured? Is that the logic?
Maybe that is why I have come across so many poor teachers, both in my own experience and that of my children.
I agree measurement would look and feel different, but of course there is key performance indicators:
CPD engagement
Curriculum Completion
Complaints (students and parents)
Class objectives and time scales met
And I am sure there are many more.
Couple this with inclass assessments and inspections, outcome and performance can be measured.
I have also worked in education for over 10 years as well as the private sector both in training and in management. So the argument is everyone assumes you must be a teacher holds both ways, it has been assumed I am not.
@Tony Gordon:
Jaysus, I didn’t say it can’t be measured. I’m saying that I have never seen truly appliable KPIs. That was what YOU brought up.
What I’m actually trying to get at is that I personally don’t think that there is a robust system at the moment but just coming along and saying “private sector does this” is not a solution. The offer of such solutions only result in more and more questions.
When it comes to your suggestions:
CPD engagement – paid for by who? Is this an expectation? In who’s time? The haddington road agreement defined certain compulsory CPD meetings and it was an abject failure. Is it CPD you’re on about or keeping up with educational developments?
Curriculum Completion – The basic of the job. How do you account for schools in disadvantaged areas? How do you account for variation in class sizes? How do you account for the mainstreaming of kids with special educational needs? When this is applied without a kpi that measures quality of learning then the depth of learning remains low on good old blooms taxonomy. I’m sure the solution is to measure depth of learning too. How will you do that exactly with 5 year olds – except of course to trust the teachers?
Complaints (students and parents) – Really? If you can’t see how this is a brutal KPI then you need to look again at what a KPI should be.
Class objectives and time scales met – See curriculum completion.
@Tony Canning: so what KPI can be measured. Sounds more like you just don’t want to be measured.
And your dismissal of both students and parents are pretty apparent.
I pay for my CPD (after all
It’s my career) and as for time, my kids teacher keep missing school for ‘training days’. Keeping up with educational requirement would count towards CPD (surprised teachers don’t have a programme for it?!?)
But as usual, any suggestion is shot down, so let’s go back to the status quo, cushy job, underperformance rife, students suffer.
As for variances you use as excuses for KPI, that’s why yearly objectives are set for individuals (not schools) and they come for agreed start of year objectives.
@Tony Gordon: I’ve made it clear that I don’t know exactly how. You were the one who brought up KPIs and I stated that I’d never heard any suggested that could be regarded as reasonable – then asked you if you had any suggestions.
You put out the idea and when asked for examples you’ve not given any that don’t open up a can of worms.
Which was what my last reply was to you.
As for “sounds like you don’t want to be measured.”
I’m not working as a teacher. I’ve spent far more of my life in private sector than public. EVERY time any educational story comes up there’s someone insisting on applying a private sector measure on education and, as I’ve said above, it never seems to have been fully thought out.
As for the rest of your reply – well all I can say is that you’re contradicting your own suggestions by putting KPI’s on individuals. Oh and – sorry I’m not a teacher so hard luck on the pathetic digs.
I expect your next reply will try to shift the goalposts further
Principals *
It should really be clarified that it’s teachers in Resource positions that cannot be dipped/probated at the moment. Before a teacher could receive a restricted dip/probation following an inspection in their setting. Teachers in mainstream settings don’t have this issue-they are being probated no problem.
Jesus H Christ on a bike. To say this article is littered with inaccuracies is an understatement. Both from the Journals point of view and from the INTO spokesperson. INTO policy is very clear. Probation under droichead can not be done without resourcing and remuneration.
That spokesperson would want to read our directive and the motion that called for the directive. Blind sources rewriting INTO policy.
@Stephen Marken: so does that mean the renumeration of principals is being put before the employment of young teachers. Is this a recurrent INTO theme, shaft the young in favour if the old sweats?
@Greg Blake: not at all. The directive is seeking remuneration for all members of the PST. The issue of unequal pay scales has to be our number one priority. It’s not a case of one or the other.
@Greg Blake: As I understand it, senior staff have been most affected by the pay cuts over the past few years. Principals and Deputy Principals were awarded a salary adjustment 9 years ago but have never been given a cent. So I think that young teachers’ pay has not been sacrificed for better remuneration for Principals!
Pity the author of the piece doesn’t know the difference between Principals and principles!!!!
The article and commenters miss one very important point.
This began when inspectors announced they would no longer do probations. Newly Qualified Teachers want to get probated. The question is, what is the best way?
@Pat O’ Sullivan: if primary school inspectors can decide what work they will and will not perform, why not other professions doing likewise.!! Sounds like complete carnage if that were allowed. How come this group can have this much power? If teachers are spending 4 years in college nowadays, the inspectors have much less support work to do than heretofore.
@Ronan Emmett: July and august= 2 months….at least get it right. Also please enlighten us as to what part time job you know of that starts at 8am, finishes around 5pm, requires work at home and work on the weekends as well as working various “free” hours?
have your say