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TEENAGE GIRLS MAY have their mental health compromised by the “very frequent use” of social media, according to new study of over 10,000 13-16-year-olds in England.
Published in The Lancet Child and Adolescent Health, the study’s findings suggest that while social media itself doesn’t cause harm, the frequent use of it can increase a teenager’s exposure to bullying and reduce their time spent sleeping and exercising.
However, while both boys and girls reported greater psychological distress from using social media very frequently, the study was unable to pinpoint the reasons why it affected boys in particular.
Teenagers from nearly 1,000 schools in England were analysed as they progressed through the first years of secondary school.
In 2013, 43% of boys and 51% of girls used social media multiple times a day. By 2015, this had risen to 69% of boys and 75% of girls using social media multiple times a day.
The study defined “very frequent use” as using sites such as Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat and Whatsapp three or more times a day.
In the second year of the study, participants were asked about their experiences of cyber bullying, sleep and physical activity. In the final year, they were asked to rate their life satisfaction, happiness and anxiety.
When the authors made a link between a teenager’s social media use and their psychological distress and wellbeing, they assessed to what extent it could be attributed to cyberbullying, how much sleep they were getting and the amount of exercise they were getting.
For girls, the more often they checked social media, the greater their psychological distress. For example, 28% of the girls who very frequently used social media reported psychological distress compared to 20% of girls who used social media weekly or less.
Similarly, girls who reported using social media very frequently in the first two years of the study reported lower life satisfaction, lower levels of happiness and greater anxiety in the final year.
The authors were able to attribute almost all of this as being down to cyber-bullying, reduced sleep and reduced physical exercise.
This was different for boys, however, with the researchers unable to pinpoint what was causing greater psychological distress in boys who used social media frequently.
Study co-author Dr Dasha Nicholls said: “The clear sex differences we discovered could simply be attributed to girls accessing social media more frequently than boys, or to the fact that girls had higher levels of anxiety to begin with.
Cyberbullying may be more prevalent among girls, or it may be more closely associated with stress in girls than in boys. However, as other reports have also found clear sex differences, the results of our study make it all the more important to undertake further detailed studies of the mechanisms of social media effects by gender.
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The Spanish government could have hid behind their constitution and disregarded the result, but the mind numbing stupidity of their actions has probably ensured Catalan independence.
@The Risen: Exactly. And with a less intense environment more of the no side would have come out to vote dampening the results away from Independence.
@Toon Army: the result isn’t legitimate anyway. Polling has to be done in a neutral environment. That didn’t happen. Also mostly only yes voters braved it. Spain’s actions were despicable but what Catalunya is doing now will not help.
@Dave O Keeffe: Well if the No crowd were too cowardly to vote then they need to abide by the result.
@The Risen: you seem to know alot about it. Go on then, enlighten us all with your brilliant analysis.
@The Risen: you seem to know a lot about it so….go on then, enlighten us further with your brilliant analysis please
@Jose Mota: he doesnt have a clue.
@The Risen: you shinner love partition… except o this island. And that shinnerbot is why everyone just laughs at you clowns.
PS Enjoy the border, do you believe in karma? :)
@neilo: great response….if your having trouble keeping up dont feel you have to start insulting people….just take a break…a siesta maybe…
@La Massa: claro que no….los nini’s de irlanda….
@Alfonso Armenta Fernández: sin duda….ahora mismo han detenido el Oriel Puyol….uno menos….
@Jose Mota: Replying in Spanish on an English speaking page is disrespectful and arrogant and in my opinion reflects the attitude of the Spanish government who by their appalling rigid stance are making a bad situation a way lot worse. Grow up and get some manners.
@The Risen: The big stick always fails.It only makes things worse.
@Brian MacCarthaigh: seems pretty pointless too. The vast majority of readers won’t even know what side they’re on
@Patricia Ellis Dunne: long story short they’re insulting anybody Irish that disagrees with them
@Dave O Keeffe: and they can use explicit swear word if the type in Spanish
@Brian MacCarthaigh: they won’t get manners. They are cowards hiding behind a language they think none of us know. Using it to insult us all for having an opinion.
@Karen Wellington: to be fair, I might have started that one off with La Massa the other day.
@Patricia Ellis Dunne: Well, I can tell you Alfonso is pointing out the fact that Puigdemont’s rush for secession mysteriously happens to coincide with the upcoming end to Andorra’s banking secrecy – Catalonia’s exit from the EU in the event of independence would prevent any Catalan leaders with their snouts in the trough from being exposed.
The word undemocratic seems to be used a lot and mostly by people trying to stop the democratic process.
@John Michalski: neither side have a democratic mandate on this issue, there a lot of hijacking going on. Madrid has its power through civil war politics and the regions haven’t taken steps to redress this over the years, its just reversion to pre war positions.
@John Michalski: Surely using your own security forces to beat the ever loving crap out of your own people can’t be called democratic?
If the international community condemns the actions of Bashar al-Assad in Syria and the violence he used then it must also condemn the actions of Mariano Rajoy and the Spanish government. We’ve accepted both used violence on their own people, we’re just discussing the different levels used, and it’s far from over yet.
The Catalonian government are acting on an undemocratic manner by declaring independence without proper elections. That Madrid won’t allow elections doesn’t justify partisan politicians speaking for the people without a vote. As both sides are abandoning democratic values, things look bad.
@Mike: They tried to vote but weren’t allowed. Madrid has clearly stated they won’t negotiate, and refuse to condemn the brutal actions of the Spanish police. Seems to me that the Catalonian government haven’t been given much choice.
@Adrian: Yes, we know they tried to hold a vote but weren’t allowed. Before the vote, polls showed a majority favoured remaining with Spain. IMO Madrid should have followed the example of the UK and allowed a vote, campaigned etc. Now they have some of the elements of our 1916 where the states’ actions in response to a quest for independence could tilt opinion in favour of independence.
@Mike: not just the actions of the Spanish government, which are pushing more people toward independence. The input of the two idiots Verhofstadt and Juncker castigating Catalonia and threatening them was not helpful at all. However, nothing frightens those two more than self determination and governance.
@Adrian: I agree, but better to let people vote than beat them over the head with batons. But the real issue is the warping of democracy by politicians. Claiming one side or the other is the only one “mandated” to dictate the democratic process is the exact opposite of a democracy that belongs to the people.
Sorry. That was for @greg
@Mike: Madrid’s use of brutality to quell dissent means than Madrid has lost all legitimacy here.
@Colin Morris: Absolutely, but that doesn’t mean that one side gets to secede without consulting with the people, even if they aren’t able to consult the people! It sounds crazy but that’s the situation we’re in.
@Adrian: they had lots of choices. They chose to manufacture confrontation.
@Colin Morris: why? care to expand your thesis a little more?
A viable solution would be to rerun the referendum on Catalonia. The question could then be put in a proper democratic vote without coercion. If the vote results in Catalonia remaining with Spain then so be it. If it results in Catalonia gaining independence then also so be it. The real difficulty as I see it is that part of Catalonia is actually in France in the same way that the Kurds are in several countries of the Middle East region not just Iraq. Borders are not static for too long a time. Norway split peaceably from Sweden. Also Slovakia from the Czech Republic. Belgium could easily split peaceably too if the will is there to do so. One thing is certain, in fifty years time the world’s borders will be different again. The question is will it be done peacefully.
@Micheal S. O’ Ceilleachair: wrong. If the result is to remain. Another referendum Will be forced again in 2 years.
@Micheal S. O’ Ceilleachair: you cant without changing the constitution. change the constitution take a substantial majority vote. current govt couldnt even if they wanted to as it is a coalition. Needs support from other parties. Other parties are against this vote.
@neilo: no, there is a way out obviously. Just like Ireland, the consitution can be changed. The consitution was written for the transition to democracy. True, it is old but probably not as old as Irelands. At least we dont have it enshrined in our consitution that a pregnant lady should die to protect a baby regardless of the circumstances and that a womans place is in the home :) that cracks me up. Vaya tela. Que verguenza….buddy!
@Jose Mota: I wonder if Waterford county wanted to be independent of the Republic tomorrow, would they be allowed to ‘just vote it for themselves’? Or would the rest of the country expect to have a say…
@Jose Mota: old? It’s under 40 years old.
@Alfonso Armenta Fernández: exactly. Or if they wanted a united ireldand but only let the orange lodges in northern ireland vote. Makes no sense. Just cannot understand irish people getting behind this. Goes against all logic
@Dave O Keeffe: right, but on the back of a long rule by Franco. It is relatively mature, lets put it like that if you perfer.
@Alfonso Armenta Fernández: Just themselves.
lol. Here we go again!!
Free Catalonia from its fascist government!!
When are we going to see the pictures of the 25 million injured in emergency service?
When are going to know the results?
The EU finaly spoke yesterday. Support spanish government against catalan fascism!!
@neilo: rule of Law. Not my fault if the families tried to blackmail the spanish government bringing their own elderly and children to use them as human shields.
Funny, all the worst political movements in europe and the world. Filo- terrorists. Assange. Russia hackers. All Anti EU supporting this disgrace called catalan nationalism. Such a bad joke.
@neilo: as a police force you have to apply the law. It’s your duty. how do you do that when there are hundreds? Please stop spreading nonsense. The fascists are not only breaking spanish Law. They are breaking their own catalan law. Taking the majority of catalans as hostages. It’s totally unaceptable.
Don’t you see they want it? Don’t you think it’s weird there are no polling results and no pictures or medical reports showing the 1000 injured?
@La Massa: what rule of law? Is there a law against protesting? Against gathering in public? Sounds very fascist.
@Dave O Keeffe: so you have no clue about spanish history and have no clue about law …. Fair enough…
@La Massa: I considered the Spanish facist line to be hyperbole on the part of the dissenter, but you’ve really changed my mind about the whole thing.
@La Massa: I take it you are Spanish seeing as you support police brutality against unarmed civilians.
Regardless of when Catalonia gains independence (which is now inevitable thanks to the stupidity of Rajoy and the King); Spain must be suspended from the EU until whoever ordered the police to attack the public is brought to justice,
@La Massa: 100% right.
@Colin Morris: it’s ok since it’s not your choice. Thanks god as you don’t have a clue. The UE is with the democracy and the law.
And now….. Catalan police in action
This is what catalan fascist propaganda ( the one you love Colin) don’t Tell….
@neilo: need to read a bit more deeply and widely – D minus
@Dave O Keeffe: clearly not. Youa re big on soundbites obviously but short on information.
@Karen Wellington: I think you should be more prudent. Calling all spanish facist is like calling all germans nazis or irish terrorists…..it sits badly and is a pretty big insult to a nation of 45 million people
@Colin Morris: stupid comment.
@neilo: ni pa ti, ni pa mi….no?
@Jose Mota: just you two, is it?
@Jose Mota: for the record, I saw the validity in Spain’s reasoning right up until they started beating the shite out people trying to exercise a peaceful right (all be an illegal one). It would have been more prudent to wait and see if there was a mandate for change from the people of Catalonia.
@Karen Wellington: Karen the problem is that catalan police betrayed the state. They were told by judges to have all polling station closed by 6 AM in sunday. To avoid exactly what happened. Catalan police left the polling station opened on purpose. Forcing the spanish police to act. They were looking for images to back what they are doing. It was all planned. Nobody likes what happened. But law must be preserved. Catalan police has a long history of violence. I recommend you to watch the video I posted.
The law in democracy makes us free. And can be changed. What catalan government is doing is a total disgrace for it’s own people. And the propaganda from people like Marc and other supporters of going back to medival times must be explained and shown.
@La Massa: why not let them have their illegitimate vote and deal with the situation as required, i.e. they vote No and Madrid can sign with relief or they vote Yes and Madrid can take notice that a significant number of people who they claim as citizen are deeply unhappy with how they are being represented and treated by a centralised government.
@Karen Wellington: they have voted 3 times. The first tiene the 9 Novembre 2014. Exactly same result.and they didnt admit the Lost. What should the state do? Leave this happening every 2 years? Breaking the law for free?
@La Massa: address the issues that have clearly upset enough people to such an extent that they are willing and able to keep calling for sedition….
@Karen Wellington: ok and disregarding the majority of the catalans that don’t want that right? You 35% people support give you the right to smash the rest? Not talking about Spain. Just in Catalonia.
@La Massa: how very black and white of you. You don’t think it’s possible to address the concerns of what most would recognise as a significant minority without alienating the majority. Is it because the two sets of people (living together peacefully) have such diametrically opposed wants and needs? Or is it that Spanish authorities are only capable of extreme reaction, you know, all or nothing?
@La Massa: FYI 35% turnout, 80% Yes vote. Being economical with facts doeskin support your argument
@Karen Wellington: doesn’t *
@Karen Wellington: ok si think 35% turnout should impose to the 65% didnt want that referendum to happen. Great democracy Karen!! Well done!
@neilo: i totally support spanish police and rule of Law. Where are the pictures of the 1000 wounded in hospital?
@La Massa: or conduct an actual poll to address the dissatisfaction of a significant portion of the population? Or is it easier to repress them if you don’t have the details? 35% turned out to vote in 2014 and 42% this time (despite Spanish Police brutality) with an overwhelming majority vote Yes each time, what information do you have to suggest the entirety of the remain 58% would have voted No?
@La Massa: do you not see something repugnant in forcibly subjugating people who want nothing to do with you?
@Karen Wellington: hey Karen i don’t have tome to teach you what denicracy is and how demicracy works. You simply don’t have the right to do whatever you like just because you don’t have enough support to change the law. You need to spend some time in a law school. Urgently.
@neilo: false. This has happened in absolutely all democratic countries around the Globe. If you don’t respect the law the state is legítimated to use the force. My recommendation. Hold Karen’s hand and get some lectures in law together. Special price for groups.
@neilo: you dare I have… Lol.
I won’t Even answer your stupid comment again. Your love for living in the far west with no law is a disgrace. All the best mate!!
@neilo: be fair, I’m guessing this is a second language so taking shots at the appalling spelling is hardly necessary, especially when you have so, so many valid concerns for the people of Catalonia at the hands of a brutal and repressive centralised Spanish government to put forward. But on the other hand, this conversation is like debating with brick. Dictators and their supporters are notoriously difficult to reason with, going so far as to disassociate with the reality of the situation in order to maintain their preferred narrative.
@La Massa: democracy works by letting the people have their say, not smashing their heads in because you might not like the answer.
@Karen Wellington: then there are no democracies. And the EU is not a democracy. Ok my fault. Then you guys don’t have to go to law school but open one and teach what law is to the world. Lol. You are so genuine. Hahahaha
@Karen Wellington: jaysus, you’re hilarious!
@La Massa: case in point.
@Karen Wellington: La massa is right in fact. In fact, this call for independence is a minority of catalans and being driven by a minority govt propped up with an anti establishment party who are driving the agenda. They do not represent the majority of catalans and the president was no elected to the post. So, the correct route in fact is that they call regional elections so that catalunya can vote and then on the basis of a legitimate govt start discussions…..its easy enough. Just takes patience and time. The alternative is to take the law into your own hands and just go for it….which they did.
@Jose Mota: the level is too low.. José remember. You can rob a bank if after robbing it you peacefully hold the money.
@neilo: agree
The IRA campaign in northern ireland which bombed and maimed innocent victims was wrong. Yes or No
(no waffle about fascists or “respecting the law”).
I await your one word response
@Jose Mota: how would you know it’s a minority result? You won’t let them tell you what they want.
@Karen Wellington: if there was to be a vote on a united Ireland, who do you think should be allowed to vote?
@Karen Wellington: very broad statement. Qualify it please.
@Jose Mota: José Karen is an expert in law in her free time. The rest of the time she works in Mac Donald’s. But believe me. She is an expert in law and a well reknown hispanist.
@Jose Mota: I think after Northern Ireland has seceded from the UK (a vote only eligible residents in Northern Ireland should get), they could petition the Republic of Ireland for unification. Do you need me to explain the difference between seceding and unifying/reunifying?
@Jose Mota: broad question, care to clarify? To which statement are you referring?
@neilo: Always? right, you got me. I have no answer to that. You are right.
@Karen Wellington: like in Ireland you mean? How many times did you vote for that lisbon treaty before getting the right answer? Hows the repeal the eight ammendment going? Having your vote anytime soon? You happy to live in a country where the constitution says a womans place is in the home?
@Karen Wellington: because the yes side in general didnt vote because it was illegal….
@Karen Wellington: they voted lots of times on it. Its no big secret. This is like the Lisbon treat in ireland. They just keep sending it back until they get the result they want…
@Karen Wellington: No, I dont really need lessons to be honest with you Karen, but thanks for the offer. My law degrees let me navigate the differences easily enough. I agree with you on NI by the way. See, its not all bad news out there.
@Karen Wellington: dont know. Lost the thread somehow.
@Jose Mota: you could probably have amalgamated some of those responses. The 8th is a good comparative example; the pro-life side don’t want any changes and it would probably suit them if there was never a referendum, but there is one scheduled for summer 2018 and if they want to have their say they need to cast a vote, which they will because they don’t want to risk losing. Pretending that any eligible citizens who didn’t take part were doing so as some form of protest to maintain the status quo is spurious reasoning and a rather weak argument designed to prop up a unilateral decision taken by a government now regarded a brutal and savage.
@La Massa: In fact, democracy is the rule of the mob which is why most civilized countries do deploy semi democratic systems like representative republics with guarantees for minorities so that the mob can’t just trample on the rights of those who don’t agree with them.
Just because the majority of those polled want something does not mean it is right, which is why democracy is dangerous if it does not include safe guards for minorities.
To call the EU a democracy is really a good joke, it’s not even a representative democracy but rather a conglomerate of different interest groups hold together by a network of complex rules which most of the times not even the people in charge understand or are willing to accept.
When is the last time you got your EU representative to do anything against the establishment of their own government. I still can’t pay my Leap card from my non Irish bank account, despite that clearly being against the law and the EU does not care, nor do my elected representative because it’s not in their interest. The government breaks the law and there is nothing I can do. Great democracy.
And just because in your kingdom the rules are one way, does not mean that the political class can’t define the rules of engagement when it comes to implement them.
They have decided to issue the order to stop voting by confiscating ballot boxed and use force if necessary to do so. So they have decided to use their monopoly of force. And while that might be according to the letter of the law, it does not mean that it’s right. Just following orders has gone out of style long time ago.
They just a much could have issues rules of engagement which said, once all boxes are collected and brought to a central location than confiscate. Or let them do what they want, nobody is going to accept the result internationally anyhow (well beside the DPRK).
Now if some of the police officers exceeded their remit and used force which was not authorized than why not simply say so and have an investigation and tell the world, that mistakes have been made, but they are going to be investigated?
@Yggr of Asgard: thats the way to go. Break the law and use your family as human shields. So the police won’t be aloud to do anything. Guys really all the best. Thanks god governments and the EU works different to the way you want. My fully support to spanish police. And spanish government in this. Looking forward to see that unilateral declaration of independence from the facist catalan president….
Still looking for the pictures of the 1000 injured…
@La Massa: Who say’s the police won’t be allowed to do anything? Just because there is a law that needs enforcing does not mean that you need to deploy occupation tactics or violence. Enforcing a law with unreasonable force is not just, even if it’s legal.
The Spanish Government could have defined different rules of engagement and today we would be at the same point, the Spanish court ruling as it did with no violent scenes over the weekend. All it would have taken to do that would have been for the Spanish Government to play it cool and tell their enforcement arm not to use force. Simple as that, nobody needed to get harmed because of a referendum that won’t be accepted by anybody.
All hardliners like you are doing is making the Spanish Government look like they are still in the colonial period.
And you constant calling of another person a fascist does not add anything, he might not be to your liking but obviously a large portion of people agree with his goal. You calling them all fascists just because they want independence from what they see as a construct they were forced into and that does not do anything for them does not make them fascists.
The fact that the EU does not act is to be expected, after all they have a major issue with this as it undermines their goal to become the united states of europe if the countries that make it up are breaking up. Plus they don’t really care about individuals, their goals are for the collective and what little the fractions in EU governments can agree with.
I still don’t see the harm of showing restraint, but it looks like you are just 100% behind what ever the Government does in this to ensure Spanish radical authoritarian nationalism is implemented. Oh wait, isn’t that the definition of fascism?
Maybe once the commercial sector stops investing in Spain due to the uncertainties and the German’s finally have enough of financing the failed Spanish experiment you will have a different point of view.
But until than I hope one day you will not feel the boot of the central government telling you what to do or think.
@Yggr of Asgard: Don´t forget these guys are going to create an alternative legal system… and will try everyone else to live by it on Catalonia… Actually that has happened already. They´ll try to make it worst. I would call that Fascism… no doubt!!
This is not voting and if the government says it´s not legal I go home peacefully..
@La Massa: you can keep screaming fascist until you’re blue in the face, but people all over the world see Spanish authorities brutally denying the Catalonian people the right to self determination. Right or wrong, that’s the optics of it all. Madrid might have the high-ground legally, maybe even morally (I don’t think so, but maybe..) but the way thing have been handled makes the Spanish look like savages. Perhaps it’s time to calm down and consider some constructive compromises, before things get really out of hand.
u can’t decide to hold a referendum on your own terms. It has to be agreed n then a fair unbiased campaign process has to take place followed by a vote with a proper organised balloting team of neutrals. If an illegal vote is happening next week on what colour the sky should be and I don’t agree it should be red why would i bother voting in a referendum that is meaningless n isn’t going to change anything because it’s not recognised, just because there’s a commotion on the tv n what seems lik a large group looking for separation doesn’t mean that they are actually the majority n u cant use an illegitimate referendum to measure whether the Spanish government is oppressing the majority of Catalonia, however there actions where ridiculous n they should be held accountable for them
@La Massa: People do bring their kids to vote. I do. And many go with family, especially with the elderly.
This is a move by the rich political elites to divide their borders and reduce tax spending on the rest of the populace. There is no comparison to the struggles against oppression in Ireland’s past. Look at it for what it is… plutocrats with stripey hats!!
@Jacques Decharnay: agree completely
The next scenario ,Puidgemont arrested on a charge of treason ,dies mysteriously while in custody.If that :did by my cynical thinking actually happen,The E U would be forced to intervene,but that could not possibly happen.EU intervention I mean .
We have a breading ground for terrorist to get established here and in 20 yrs time they will sit down and talk
@FlopFlipU:
And Madrid is entirely to blame.
@Colin Morris: No, Puigdemont is to blame. An unelected official who was not voted in as president of the catalan assemby who took his non-independence party and hijacked it agenda with the support of the loony left and anti establishment party who account for 48% of the vote….that youre idea of democracy??
Well the problem with democracy is that it is not perfect and while in representative democracy environments minorities should have some sort of protections a country which has a history of colonialism will always have problems if parts of their captured areas want to leave.
How it’s handled is the important part and on this occasion the central government has shown that they still have some way to go to understand the new reality.
They could have simply let the vote go ahead and than ignore the result (as they do now), that would have been the best thing to do. No incidents of a branch of the military beating up their own citizens.
How the central government and the EU has addressed this is shameful and worst of all it’s the EU’s taxpayers who have to pay for this because of the horrible economic conditions the Spanish Empire is in.
But what can we do? Nothing beside no longer buying produce from Spain because after all the only language governments seam to understand these days is economic. So next supermarket trip, the “made in spain” will result in a “nope”.
But that’s the problem, people are going to continue shopping Spanish goods, go to cheap holidays in the regions of the Spanish Empire because after all, ones personal welfare is more important than those of other people.
@Yggr of Asgard: I dont agree. The real problem is that the catalan assemby prior to the vote passed a law of disconnection from Spain and stated that if the vote was in favor, they would disconnect regardless. That is not a democratic process when there is already one in place that they chose not to pursue as it was too long and complicated. So say they let the vote go ahead, and it was a huge yes. Then what? Let them disconnect? Did the voters registered really have the power to decide that in a make shift referendum? Your suggestion of boycotting spanish goods is akin to boycotting irish goods until the british agree to leave northern ireland. Makes no sense unless of course you dont believe in process, law, seperation of powers etc etc….
@Yggr of Asgard: lol
@Jose Mota: Getting ones nation restored is not an easy process and there are different ways to go about it. Ultimately it is down to the people to decide if they want to be an independent nation again or if they want to stick with a construct they went into.
My complaint with this is that a central government sends in a military force to beat up their own citizens and makes it impossible for those who want to voice their opinion (be that to leave or stay) to do so.
The central government could just have ignored it if it went “leave” or used it to strength their position if it went “stay” as some opinion polls said it would.
There was no need to send in a branch of the military to take actions like that. If it is really only a minority that wants to leave than there is a way to deal with that.
As to your point of not buying Irish goods, last time I checked the Irish Government did not use the Defense Forces to beat up the shiners because they want a border poll in light of Brexit.
A good democratic government knows when to use it’s monopoly of force, that is what sets it apart from a totalitarian one. And especially in a country with a history like Spain that is crucial.
At the moment you have 2 governments deep in nationalism that are going to collide in an ugly way and the right thing is to see if there is a way to deal with this peacefully possible by having a 3rd party. Why not allow a fair and democratic vote (where every citizen can go an vote) and than take it from there.
With the EU not taking this seriously it’s down to individuals to show what they think of such a reaction.
And in my case I make the decision not to support anything that gives the Spanish Government more funds or to contribute to the Spanish economy.
You might not agree with that, and that is fine (we live in a republic after all).
Look, it is true that all govts are prone to make mistakes in times of crisis, not just Spains. We see this all the time. Police beating civilians is never acceptable and the majority of Spanish people agree with this. However, to see the spanish been consistently called facists because of this is unfair. And it particularly goes deep when it is a country that we traditionally count as a friend that is doing this. There are other ways to protest. Insulting Spain is really not one of them. Catalunya is a problem for all Spain. But is it not unique. It has its own language an autonomy, but so do other regions.
It is easy to jump on the bandwagon and say freedom for catalunya. But it is not black and white, in the same way northern Ireland is complicated so is this issue. One bad day does not make Spain all bad nor does it mean that Catalunya should have independence without going through the proper channels. This is a big topic. If it is independent it is out of Europe. What about all the people who invested life savings there for retirement from europe. Suddenly this will be almost worthless as catalunya is bankrupt. How to manage the boarder. How to manage all the catalans who do not want to leave. How to build the structures of a state quickly so countris like russia do not get a foothold. How to manage its several nuclear reactors. This and many many more questions need answers. An over night declaration of independence is a disaster for everyone. The politicians leading it are corrupt and weak and irresponsible. Catalunya deserves better and Spain deserves better.
Apologies to all those I insulted with by threads. It was in the heat of the battle.
@Jose Mota: I agree with you on the futility of calling everybody with an opposing point with a label, but I’m sometimes guilty to when I refer to some groups as snowflakes.
That does not further any persons point and is unproductive and if you call “fascist” to often than it looses any meaning when it’s really appropriate to call someone or a group that. Just like “nazi” has lost any meaning in the US debate where even Jews with a conservative point of view are Nazi’s.
I assume you are Spanish and compassionate about your country, and while we have contrary points of view, never loose your willingness to communicate your point verbally because than the mob wins. I rather be called an idiot by someone for my pov than having a mob rule.
I’m sorry I stand by my point of commercial boycott but that does not mean that I won’t go out with my Spanish co-worker to lunch. Nor will it change my memories of excellent professionals in Spanish law enforcement. I just wish the government would have handled this better and individual officers would have pushed back on rules of engagements.
At the end of the day, Catalonia will see independence in one way or another, how we get there however is important, peacefully I hope.
anyone watching the news to keep following up on this topic that so distresses you? Seen the pro-Spain protests breaking out across catalunya? See that the woman who claimed that the police had broken her four fingers in the ballot box actually had a small bruise only from forcing her way through the door? Any mention of the group of pro independents who stopped the tourist bus with balaclavas, forced the frightened tourists off it and slashed the tyres? Any word on the parents of the leader of Ciudanos whose parents shop in Catalunya was plastered with hate messages? Any thoughts on the fact that the reported figure of 800 injured was fabricated? Any input on the bands of youths roving the streets forcing shops to shut to respect the strike even if they did not want to? Any real thoughts on anything at all????
Catexit
The Madrid government can nip into Catalonia at lunchtime when they are all having a two hour sleep and bottle of Rioja.
@alphanautica: Catalans don’t have siestas unlike they’re cousins in the south of Spain, hence why Catalonia is a richer area!!
@Éanna O’Corra: and here the typical racist comment… I hace heard that from the catalan racists ruling Catalonia si many times.
@alphanautica:
How do they manage to sleep and drink Riojo ay the same time?
@alphanautica: stereotype….need to study harder.
@Éanna O’Corra: eeehhmmm….yes, they do in fact. Broad and inaccurate generalisation. D-
was in Dublin a few weeks ago. Had the pleasure to watch a couple of your knacker hoodies kicking the crap out of a homeless man in a shop door. Of course, my immediate conclusion was that this is a nation of violent people who pick on the defenseless. This is the message I’ll be spreading around Spain anyway.
@neilo: peaceful protesters? really? how many days coverage did you watch of it? because there was nothing peaceful about the protesters vadalising the police jeeps in the days leading up to it. Or of the police needing armed escorts to move from their lodgings either in the days before the vote.
@Jose Mota: A force seen by a large part of the country they are in as occupying force needs armed protection. Reasonable as long as they stick to basic rules of engagement and reasonable force.
Some people venting their anger against these forces with violence to be expected and their chain of command must have taken that into calculation when they deployed (unless they are incompetent). Does not make the violence right but deploying armed military forces (especially against their own population) has risks in any circumstances.
A government misusing their monopoly of violence by behaving like an occupying force shutting down the local population now that is not okay.
But I guess some countries have more experience with that than others. I’m sure they simply dusted off some contingency plans in Madrid forgetting about social media these days. Or that times have moved on and people might have a different opinion how to deal with unruly locals.
Simply ignoring the result and not interfering would have been a better option. The situation now would be the same. 2 nationalistic governments trying to put their own people and systems first. Or it would have been better, because people could have voted against the referendum.
Deploying armed force against their own population behaving like occupying forces now that is what creates long lasting damage. And as we know it does not take that much to go from peaceful attempts to get independent to a declaration of independence to a war of independence. And than depending on who wins it’s either going to be terrorism or the greatest nation on earth.
De-escalation is a valid tactics and should have been deployed, too late now.
@neilo: go to the states and start a protest where you have ten police against a wall surrounded by hundreds of protestors spitting at them, trowing objects at them and trying to take their shields and batons away…..and see how long it is before you get a bullet. What you saw is some coverage of some events…..not all coverage of all the events. True, it should not happen that police beat people, but the police are just people. In this case people probably living on 1200 euros a month salary who are put in this position.
I hear you condemn them harshly. Why not write a letter to your minister for justice demanding no more cooperation from the guardia civil and CNP with the gardai in catching irish drug gangs hiding out on the costas. Or tell, the guardia civil that you dont appreciate them taking time out of their lives to travel to Dublin to help Ireland out with its gangland shootings. You are right! Be outraged! make sure those damn facists never help you again. That will shjow them….
@Jose Mota: Well looking at the recent antifa protests in Berkley where even the use of pepper spray had to be pre-approved I think your example is not really comparable. Is the police in the US becoming too much like the military and too quick to pull the trigger. Absolutely, but what do you expect after 8 years of snowflakes ruining the country?
Your argument of “just following orders” even if you disguise it behind economics (i.e. they only get so little money) is not really a valid one. That excuse has been used through generations and was never valid.
These officers were clearly under the supervision of higher officers and they did not just act because they felt like it. They took a page out of the book how to occupy a nation play book and tried it. Not with much success but it’s been a while since they had to use it.
As to your argument about police collaboration and Ireland being worse off without Spanish police helping with gangland shootings. Well maybe Ireland would be better off to bring other experts to deal with it, giving the remarkable success that law enforcement so far had. And those coming here do get paid, so please don’t make them out to be some heroes.
The problem is the Spanish Government’s decision to deploy such forces and define the rules of engagement to include the use of unreasonable force against the local populous. Not that I don’t understand their fear, possibly loosing a region that contributes to a larger extent to my economics and tax intake (which after all allows me to be in power) than others would make me nervous too.
The problem is the way that they address it and so far I have not called them fascist only nationalist (on both sides) but depending on how central government is going to continue to behave will show if they go down the fascist route.
These days everybody is so quickly to call everybody a Nazi or Fascist, because everything is so binary.
@Yggr of Asgard: I didnt say just following orders. I was commenting on the human dimension. Like you say, everything is binary these days but problems usually are complex and take more than black or white posturing to reach a solution.
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This would be a good time for the E.U. to tell the Catalonian government that if they secede from Spain, they will also be seceding from the E.U. itself, and then point to how Brexit is working out.
@Neil Mcdonough: already done…..they unsuccessfully lobbied brussels, washington etc. Most leaders would not meet with them. So far only Venezuela and North Korea have recognised the vote…
Breaking up is hard to do!
The demial of democracy is sweeping across the EU by consent or force, the EU is protecting no1,the EU.people are tax cows.
The Catalan issue is crucial to democracy, but can the journal at least get the grammar right in the subhead? You’re making no sense.
The Catalan independence movement cannot serve the interests of Spanish workers. If anything it splits the Spanish working class. Catalan independence serves the class interests of a section of the Spanish bourgeoisie at the expense of the working class.
Instead the Catalan working class must struggle to overthrow the Spanish bourgeoisie instead of being subordinated to narrow nationalism.
You have to admire the guile of the Spanish government….praising democracy while also denying people voting rights.
have your say