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HSE BOSS TONY O’Brien has apologised for any distress caused after a leaked memo said nurses could remove patients from beds “as trespassers” using “minimum force” to free up beds.
O’Brien told the Oireachtas Health Committee this afternoon that the memo should not have been disseminated as widely as it was.
He apologised for any distress it caused.
However, he did say it was drafted based on legal counsel in relation to rare cases where patients refused to leave hospital.
Yesterday, Minister for Health Simon Harris said that the memo was “utterly offensive and unacceptable” and had been rescinded.
Simon Harris TD / Twitter
Simon Harris TD / Twitter / Twitter
He was agreeing with Liam Doran, General Secretary of the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, who welcomed the retraction but also expressed worry over why the memo included those instructions in the first place.
Roscommon-Galway Independent TD Michael Fitzmaurice shared his concern, and said that those responsible for HSE statement on removal of patients should be removed from their roles.
“The notion that the HSE would ask nurses to use force to remove patients from beds is absolutely unbelievable and a further indication of the disconnect that there is between some of the people who run our health service and the most important people of all, who are the patients.
“The callous tone of this statement is quite astonishing and to suggest that anyone in a civilised society would be treated in this manner is quite shocking.”
With reporting by Christina Finn
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So when is he being sacked? Oh wait, he works for the HSE!
“Lessons will be learned” so, namely – the next time he sends out a memo instructing nurses to forcibly remove people from hospital beds, he shouldn’t send it to so many people.
Ok then, carry on.
@Eyepopper: Getting sacked? Yeah right…. you would have to take the law into your own hands to get justice…. and there is still people here whining over Trump…. what we have is much worse….
Sacked? That’s a joke
@Eyepopper: Any chance someone else in the HSE is trying to trigger just that ? Leaked! Who leaked it and why?
@just readin: The question has to be why was such an email sent and why. Who ever leaked it doesn’t matter.
You could not make this shit up
@john g mcgrath: That be the problem,they didnt make it up,,thought it true took legal advice and sent it out,,,, shameless f@@kers
He’s sorry it was disseminated so far, the bloody arrogance of these managers. I so suppose a nicely compensated sideways shift or promotion will be his sanction.
@john g mcgrath: Ah John it’s the HSE…..
Any other line of work you’d be turfed out immediately for gross misconduct…but of course that won’t happen here
The guy should be given his marching orders…disgusting
What else are they not telling us ? This guy wants to turf these people out because of the failure of the HSE down through the years
It aint even an opology for this letter or policy, it an opology fot it being ” disseminated as widely as it was” ie brought to Public attention.
They wanted nurses implementing it at the behest of managers on the quiet and without regard to thier professional or moral ethics.
If this happened in the UK or the States he would be gone already.. In Ireland he’ll be given a golden handshake and a place on a state board..
Not in the us. its policy to kick people out when they are well. not only that they kick you out when your money runs out. see sicko
He should be removed with maximum force, ASAP, he’s a disgrace.
Absolutely should be fired. Its a disgrace someone gets to keep a job after such bad decision making.
Removing the figurehead would change nothing really. Its government policy that the public health system doesn’t function properly. If it did there would be little for profiteering by private capital on peoples medical needs. The problem is one of ideology, not incompetence.
Though he should be sacked of course. It just won’t fix anything in our health system.
It might change an attitude or two though if the hse management thought there were repercussions to their actions.
His apology is unacceptable.
That memo is gross misconduct
He needs to be instantly dismissed with zero severance pay.
What qualifications do you have to determine that? He speaks the truth. Deal with it
He wants nurses to treat patients as trespassers and use minimum force!, as if what he’s suggesting isn’t bad enough he then suggests nurses to put themselves in harm’s way by reinforcing it???
Why is Tony O Brien still head of the HSE after so many cockups ?
Presumably, given the Minister for Health agrees the memo was “utterly offensive and unacceptable” there will be consequences. Disciplinary procedures? Demotions? Termination?
Or, as is more likely, what Minister Harris actually finds to be “utterly offensive and unacceptable” is that it became public. Those who issued the memo will face absolutely zero consequences – life will go on as normal.
I can honestly say that I have never felt such shock and anger as I did on hearing the content of this leaked memo. To think that in a so called civil society anyone would have such a mean despicable mindset as to suggest to nursing staff that they could use any kind of coercion to remove patients from a bed for what ever reason is mind numbing.
No it’s not good enough to say that it should not have been disseminated in the way it was. It’s not good enough that the very idea should have been give more than a split second’s thought. It’s not good enough that a mere apology should be issued to assuage peoples’ anger. It’s not good enough that no one has been sacked or even sanctioned over the production of this vile document.
It’s not good enough that the name of the legal company and/or the particular individual who gave this advice should not be published.
Finally someone in the HSE requested this advice, that person should immediately resign!
The fact that the memo was leaked is irrelevant, the fact that it was written in the first place is the issue here. Apology simply cannot be accepted. Someone has to be held accountable and take responsibility.
John, I fully agree, it is very easy to apologise but it can never be taken back, what’s done is done. He is accountable as head man, and should Resign or be SACKED.
How much did the HSE pay for this legal advice and is the genius involved still contracted? Sorry is not good enough someone must be held to account. Actually sorry is an excuse for children under 12 everyone older than that know right from wrong. The idea that patients can be removed from beds and then dumped out onto the street is a new low for the HSE. The top level of dead wood needs to be removed before more patients are murdered under Tony’s o’brien’s watch.
No excuses. No delay… our out out without a lump of cash….
One can only wonder what kind of Gobs..tes are in control in that HSE, or is there anyone at all in control, or is everyone doing their own thing. To allow a Memo like that to be distributed to nurses just beggers belief. God be with the Matrons in the Hospitals, that was back in the time that Hospitals were spotlessly clean and there were no Hospital Managers and Bed Managers. Patients were fed their food if they were unable to manage and there were no trollies. There are more pen-pushers and walkabouts in there now than Doctors and Nurses. My God, to suggest that someone old and infirm should be treated as a Trespasser and then flung out of a bed by someone who is supposed to be caring. Hospitals are not Jails or places of Detention, they are places of care and support. Shame on the HSE.
The only gobs here are people like you who would prefer sick people to be on a trolley
Well Colm my good man, if that is your contribution to the debate you should have stayed quiet. This is serious stuff about Senior HSE people talking about Patients, they are a disgrace, and for that clown to try and apologise just shows what they think of people. Get him out of there fast.
Unfortunately Colm, you would probably be treated better in the jail.
I witnessed a situation in a western hospital when visitors left a patient ambulance staff arrived and told him he was been transferred to a nursing home ( relatives were not informed when visiting ) about 30minutes a lady dressed like someone going to the races started to change the bed for a new patent to arrive later I asked the patient long waiting inA&E he said he was rushed in by his Niece the back Door as there was a bed available WHAT DOSE THIS TELL YOU WHATS GOING ON
Hi Eugene. There is a small percentage of bed blockers in hospitals. There is a small precentage of patients on trolleys. If you solve the bed blocker issue then you help to solve the trolley issue. For people to suggest there is not an issue with bed blockers is naive. This man is trying to help people who are sick, not people who are on an all inclusive stay in a hospital. He should be commended for that not attacked. Maybe the wording of the memo could be better but it still does not negate the facts
Colm, this discussion began about the Memo that was passed out by some concerned person. Now the discussion is about bed blockers. Ok, there are people in hospital that should be at home or in Nursing care, that is the problem of the HSE and Dept. of Health. Their duty does not end when a patient has got successful treatment, they have to provide and pay for home help etc. , which is far less than cost one nursing home. We now have Bed Managers, Hospital Managers, General Managers, none of who have an iota of how to treat people. They are Commercial operators. They are now trying to FORCE people to sign forms when the enter A&Es if they admit that they have health care, so that they can charge Insurance Companies E850 per night instead of E75 even though the patient is not receiving Private treatment. Another SCANDAL. Pure cold hearted people who just want to be seen to be doing what the Minister wants. Now, this evening, we see that Harris is trying to syphon off more money from the tax payer ultimately. Of course, he was speaking so fast again that most could not hear him.
And we wonder why our elderly are abused in nursing homes he has to go……’ die even better
If this was britain The Minister would be gone yesterday
This is happening already. Bed managers putting ferocious pressure on families to find a nursing home bed that doesn’t exist alot of the time
Speaking from experience often the family don’t want the patient moved to a nursing home as paying for the nursing home will reduce the sons and daughters inheritance. Ask any nurse or doctor, it’s happening all over the country and should be publicised more – people in hospital for months at a time and we wonder why there are no beds
My Aunt was stuck in CUH for the best part of 6 months with aggressive dementia. No nursing home would take her as she was far too active and hard to manage. Her family couldn’t take care of her at home anyone.
That’s awful and not what I was referring to but surely their should nursing home style care available to those who have those kind of conditions as I presume a public hospital ward isn’t the appropriate place for this condition either?
There should be a dedicated unit for dementia patients as there has been cases of residents in care homes being attacked by dementia patients. Can’t blame nursing homes for refusing to take these dementia patients in all honesty. Headwreaking for the families..
Could have done with this in 2009. Got laid off, got a security job in an A+E.
Worthless waste of skin professional waster sat on his hole on a emergency bed making a scene taking half hour to get his shoes on. Meanwhile elderly patient with breathing difficulties along with the two ambulance staff waiting to use the bed.
@Dermot Mc: Worthless waste of skin professional waster sat on his hole on a emergency bed making a scene taking half hour to get his shoes on. Did your medical qualification allow for the fact this person may be suffering from dementia or a mobility impairment, I find your comment equally offensive to the HSE’s suggested treatment above, please do not judge so harshly.
This is what passes for a health SERVICE in the cesspool republic. This Cee U Next Tuesday is paid very handsomely from the public purse and therefore is accountable to the public for what he says and does.
Why is still there? He should be removed as forcibly as possible.
We need a Trump here to take these fat cat parasites out of our society.
@John Moore:@John Moore: He is one of them.
Remove him with minimal force. Like immediate sacking. Shameful carry on.
If the bed blockers who are no longer ill were not taking up beds we would no longer have a trolley problem on A&E. He was right. HSE was right. Acute hospitals are not nursing homes or granny dumping facilities l.
@Get Lost Eircodes: HSE told my mother in law that she should go home – she was well enough. The family refused saying she hadn’t recovered fully and it was obvious from just looking at here.
Three days later she passed away, the hospital denied at the inquest ever saying that she had to leave.
Was she a bed blocker? Stupid childish comment.
That kind of rhetoric is why nothing changes in this country. Your dreadful experience does not alleviate the fact that we have some of the longest bed stay durations in 1 st world countries.
Is it not a fact that there is a serious shortage of Nursing homes all over Ireland. It costs far less to keep people in my heir own homes, but HSE will not put the necessary home care packages in place, no money, all used up on their big travelling and subsistence allowances, and hundreds of them sitting in offices doing nothing all day
@Eugene Regardless of what people are paid or regardless of travel & expenses peiple who no longer need acute hospital beds should be occupying them. This is part of reason health services are in shite and why waiting lists are so long. I applaud attempts to reduce bed blocking.
Get Lost
We are not talking about people holding beds here, this started with the story of an outrageous leaked Memo , that was probably going to be sent out. This was a view from legal people that force could be used against vulnerable people. Now , apparently O’Brien and his likes didn’t have any problem with that until some sensible person said stop. Why didn’t he issue a Memo to staff in A& Es around the country to hammer the drunks and druggies that go in there every night.
@getlost – so what are YOUR figureS for the average daily number of “bedblockers” and for the average daily excess demand for beds? Or might facts yet again get in the way of subjective, unfounded opinion?
@Eugene – You would have got a green thumb from me for the first part. But then you introduced that separate issue of why – in your opinion – we don’t do the right thing. You MAY be right but it’s a distraction.
Absolutely spot on
He is trying to make up for the failures of the HSE down through the years, through not providing the necessary primary care units around the country.
Christ the outrage is strong on this subject. Personally I have no issue with bed clingers being frog marched out of the wards for genuinely sick people. We are too PC if we don’t allow a bit of pragmatism to be used while managing our public services, God knows we could do with more efficiently run service. Get over the outrage and look to the reasons why this statement had to be ade in the first place. Average bed stay should be less than 1.5 days, any more is mollycoddling the patient and keeping the ward full to justify large staff numbers and overtime.
Large staff numbers? Really? It sort of undermines the rest of your opinion (I nearly said argument)
This thing deserves a good bating hurt the animal
It was sent out to hospitals,and whoever involved should be sacked.time and again mess up in hse,no held accountable,no consequences,so this will keep happening.
Just reading all of these comments shows me that society as projected as a caring society is a myth. All of those involved in this memo should be instantly dismissed for gross misconduct under the HSE’s own regulations Opts forgot those regulations only apply to Doctors, nurses and care attendants not to the higher ups who wrote regulations such as the much vaunted Trust in Care policy.
Should be gone in my opinion
Why sacked? people who are well are hogging beds that are needed for sick people.
Come now. It would be so entertaining to give a bed blocker a few digs and whack them around a bit. It’s even better if they are feeble and in a post operative state. We have become far, far too sensitive.
The best of fun can be had in jostling and threatening pregnant women, sick elderly people and those who can’t fight back.
Truly we live in the age of Trump.
Have you bashed an elderly person today? Have you put the fear of God into those weaker than you and more vulnerable?
Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it.
He must have a good teason for saying this. About time bed blockers get shown up for keeping ill people on a trolley. Some people have zero idea of the reality of what happens in hospitals but then choose to attack this person who does
@Colm Quigley: Any idea Colm why your “bed blockers” are in hospital or does your power of reasoning not extend that far?
@Colm – The reason MAY be to do with keeping trolley numbers down this winter for the optics or trying to stay within budget or even be to do with channeling resources to those in greatest need. All of them valid reasons depending on your perspective. And if that’s what it takes to do whichever applies, then that’s what has to be done.
The real question is why we find ourselves in a position where someone believes it’s necessary to advocate gentle force and what needs to happen to change things. As changing things will take more time than many patients may have, we need to stop using the simplistic “bedblockers” line and start talking about REAL solutions.
@Tom. I can understand the frustration of hospital management when people refuse to go home when they are well enough but then find there hospitals on national news due to the amount of people on trolleys. The bedblocker issue is caused by selfish people. I suppose the nicely nicely approach has failed. I have to admire his willingness to reolve the situation if the memo is generated by the bed blocker issue
Fair play Tony O Brien. People who are well enough or bot sick should not be taking up a bed. This is a problem in the HSE. The same muppets on here are the ones complaining about people on trolleys.
You would need a lot more than minimum force to remove any of these top guys who make such serious errors of judgement in their very well paid jobs.
He has been let off by spineless Harris
Yea Harris should have something to say about the bed blockers
Can we know who it was drafted the memo and who approved it ,Please
Did that statement also include those on trollies . What a thing to expect nurses to do. Again give the shitty things for us to do another reason for us to get abuse and added stress as well as trying to look after the growing numbers of patients with less resources.. Just sit in your office enjoy your breaks and luxury bathroom. We will just do what you instruct us without questioning it.Sure we are super.
None of this surprises me. My family have experience with HSE staff in Cork South Lee area who are not just uncaring but also incompetent.
One particular district nurse harassed my parents and my brother to put my parents into a nursing home. When a place was found for one of them the other needed emergency respite care.
The b1tch who harassed my family declared she could/would do nothing to progress this request, which had been recommended by a caring HSE staff member.
Martina, we still have not heard from you,
The
T W A T is no offensive , said in relation to the head of HSE
have your say