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TDS HAVE URGED the Central Bank to closely watch the behaviour of banks to ensure they do not pass on fines for their regulatory breaches to their customers.
This week Permanent TSB was handed a €21 million fine for breaches that impacted on more than 2,000 of its customers as part of the wider tracker mortgage scandal. It is expected that other lenders responsible for this overcharging of customers will also face fines from the regulator.
Fianna Fáil TD and chair of the Oireachtas Finance Committee John McGuinness said the fines should “come off the bottom line”.
This should be affecting directors of the bank and the Central Bank should make sure that happens and that taxpayers and customers of the banks don’t end up having to pay in increased charges.
He said charges brought in by banks in the run up to fines and any subsequent increased charges for customers “need to be challenged by the Central Bank”.
“The banks can anticipate these fines and we have already seen they try every single day to get around the regulatory system.”
TheJournal.ie asked Permanent TSB if the bank wanted to offer reassurance to customers that they would not end up having to cover the cost of the €21 million fine through higher loan costs and fees.
A spokesperson said the bank “won’t be making any further comment at this time”.
Following confirmation of the fine, PTSB’s chief executive Jeremy Masding had apologised for the distress caused. He said “building on the lessons learnt from this issue, Permanent TSB has invested heavily in enhancing the organisation’s risk management and control environment”.
Just this week it was reported that the bank will increase the fixed monthly payment for its Explore current account by 50% this summer. This will make it more difficult for the bank’s customers to qualify for free banking.
‘Individuals made decisions’
McGuinness said the fine was just “one piece” of the action being taken in response to the scandal. He said the Central Bank is still looking at whether individuals in the banks who overcharged their customers should also be financially sanctioned.
In evidence given to the Finance Committee, executives for the banks have blamed the scandal on systems failures, rather than deliberate decision-making, but McGuinness asked “who believes that?”.
“The fact is that they all made the same mistake at the same time with the same results and people are not foolish, they know what happened here,” he said.
Sinn Féin’s finance spokesperson Pearse Doherty said that while a large fine is “a blow” for a financial institution, “the only real deterrent will individual accountability”.
“There will be a real test for the Central Bank here. The reality is that a fine, while it is a deterrent, it will end up on the shoulders of customers.
It wasn’t a system that overcharged those 2,000 customers, it wasn’t systems that took homes from people, it wasn’t systems that told customers they were wrong when they were right. It was individuals – senior managers – who made decisions.
Doherty said Permanent TSB, and other banks, should act ‘customer-centred’ when dealing with court challenges from customers in relation to the tracker mortgage scandal.
“There were some customers settling out of court this week and even though we’ve written to them Permanent TSB hasn’t given any guarantee that it will look at other files similar to those cases to see if they can also be settled,” he said.
“If they were customer-centred, they would do that. Not everyone has the financial ability to take them to the courts. The banks have an army of lawyers facing individuals who are already financially strained as a result of the actions of the banks.”
PTSB has admitted in full to 42 separate regulatory breaches of the Code of Practice for Credit Institutions 2001 and the Consumer Protection Codes 2006 and 2012.
The Central Bank’s Director of Enforcement and Anti-Money Laundering, Seána Cunningham, said that the investigation into PTSB found that they had “failed to put their customers first, with distressing and, in some instances, devastating consequences”.
PTSB failed in their obligations to do the right thing by their customers. In doing so, they broke the trust of their customers and damaged the public’s confidence in PTSB.
“At a minimum, customers should be provided with clear and timely information and warnings about their mortgage, the highest levels of customer service and a commitment from their lender to put things right promptly and fairly should they go wrong.”
Cunningham warned that where firms fail to protect their customers’ best interests, the Central Bank’s response will be “robust and the consequences will be serious”.
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This is a great step in the right direction, now lets have the referendum and finally allow equal rights for all adults when choosing to marry
It’s not equal rights… it’s equal privileges which I am in support of… please get the terminology right!!!
Please explain the reasoning for you comment thelonehurler,
Just goes to show that we are not a country run by the Church, and people can separate their religious beliefs/ethos from other matters.
Pro choice groups take note – people make up their own minds.
Technically marriage is a privilege, as currently only straight people (I.e. privileged) can have it. Also, if someone said they didn’t want to marry you, could you then take them to court for denying you your right to marriage?
Conor I am going to say no (and bare with me here) because you have your rights so long as it doesn’t infringe on another persons rights. A person has the right to be single just as you have a right to be married.
@Stephen Howlin: Marriage as we currently know it in this country already has some restrictions attached to it, therefore it is not a universal right… as I said to Claire McCarthy above, get the terminology right!
I agree that everyone should have a right to be able to get married. But my point is that unfortunately not everyone has that right at the moment. By virtue of the fact we have to vote to extend (or not) that right to everyone means we, as a nation, get to choose who has that right. In effect, straight people are going to tell gay people what they can or can’t do. Is this not a privileged position? And by extension, is marriage therefore not a privilege?
(Just to clarify: I’m in full favour of allowing same-sex marriage. I’m just being a bit nitpicky on phraseology and interested in what others think :))
Good to see support but I fear that once the referendum comes round it May go the same was as the Seanad referendum when a golden opportunity for progress was spurned by the fuds who actually turned up at the polling stations…also add in the ‘if you don’t know vote no’ brigade to the mix and you can get our “educated” electorate
Just with the whole rights v privileges arguement. Every Irish person has the right to marry. As it stands only straight people have the privilege of using that right. The referendum will decide whether or not to give two men or two women that want to marry each other the privilege to use their right to marry the person they want to marry. Gay people have the right to get married in the morning but it would have to be to a straight person.
Ah jaysus!!! It kept telling me it couldn’t submit!
Very good point, Gillian. I was chatting to someone else about this earlier and he made a variation of your point, where it’s a privilege to have the right in the first place, rather than marriage itself being a privilege. Another point made was that it’s a right to be able – or to have the choice – to get married, rather than just a right to get married.
I thought it was good food for thought anyway, though I’m sure many might see it as pointless pedantry and semantics!
Ah what? That posted under the wrong comment!
I am of the same opinion as you Conor when you say…
“I’m in full favour of allowing same-sex marriage. I’m just being a bit nitpicky on phraseology and interested in what others think “
Lol, Gillian! :)
Hi Conor I wouldn’t say that the right to marry is a privilege but that if you have a situation where everybody is equal then none of those people can be privileged in any way.
Why do people feel the need to be given the “right” to marry? That is giving your power to some other entity- church/state and the person becomes the slave. This is what the Roman church did of course and we do not seem to be ready to evolve back to our own advanced way. Why?
Marriage the way it is , is not a right. It is an Institution. and what is an institution? keeps you locked in.
Marriage locks you into a contract with the state/church and you know what they say about 3 entities in the marriage.
I want to be clear here. I am very much in favour of this change but ultimately this poll is meangingless and could be dangerous.
We’ve seen before how opinion polls tend to vary considerably from the actual result especially in referendum polling. You have to include the fact that there are people out there who give what they consider to be the “socially acceptable” answer when asked publicly about it but when given the choice in the privacy of the voting booth will express a different viewpoint. While it’s heartening to see that there does seem to be a solid majority for this change I expect that when the real campaign gets underway the figures will narrow and probably narrow by quite a margin.
I hope nobody gets complacent by this poll result and decided that this is a done deal. There will be some nasty times ahead during this campaign and those of us in favour of this change will need to be vocal and campaign energetically for its passing.
Very good point, Jim.
Well said Jane.
I agree with you on every point, but I don’t think that the margin will narrow that much if you are counting what people actually think. I think what what could make the actually result narrower is not people having a change of heart in the polling booth, but is that that many of those who are happy enough to have change might not be all that motivated to actually get out and vote, because those who don’t want change will be.
The only thing that makes me think that that people are unlikely to change their minds much is the nature of those in opposition to change. It’s clear from the few debates that have already taken place that the media are having to scrape the barrel in order to maintain balance, and what they’ve found has not be persuasive voices, but strident and hysterical ones putting forward easily refuted arguments.
If the government parties could just found pro SSM groups its would be better than risking the I-hate-Enda-Vote-No brigade turning out in force.
….fund…
The far right hate machine will hamper these numbers though over time.
Once they get their hate “message” out there equating homosexuals with paedophiles, polygamists & beastiality, the poll unfortunately will tighten.
Heres hoping though.
Bring on 2015!
That scaremongering was already evident in the comments on yesterday’s article. It will get really nasty.
The main thing is to get the yes vote out. The no side are only able to put forward nutters to try and win their argument. People who opposed contraception, divorce and legalisation of homosexuality and others who boast about admiration for groups like Youth Defense, UKIP, French National Front etc (check out their twitter feeds). I don’t believe that many intelligent people will be swayed by their arguments but it will get nasty and no doubt some people will get frightened. The no voters will come out in their droves which is why it is important that the yes side do not become complacent. Slovenia held a referendum with polls showing an average of 60% in favour, turnout on referendum day was something like 30% and the referendum was defeated. It’s important that the same is not allowed to happen in Ireland.
Good point Colm.
Agreed, Colin and people who are inclined to vote no are more likely to turn out. If you look at the demographics most in favour – the youth – they’re the ones who turn out the least. In contrast, the older age groups are less supportive and they’re the ones that are more likely to vote.
One of the key arguments that has been used by the anti-side in previous same-sex marriage referendums elsewhere is the question of adoption by gay couples, which polls have shown is supported by less people.
The government has stated it intends to pass legislation in 2014 to allow gay couples to adopt.
So hopefully this strategy will remove one of the No side’s biggest arguments, ahead of 2015.
Very good point Ryan.
Here’s hoping Ryan!
And so the patriarchal divide and rule agenda lives on- youth V old, men V women.
Not nice to see it working on almost every comment here.
Who’s in favour of same sex massage? Thumb up for yes and thumb down for no and lets see.
Ah now, sure what’s wrong with an innocent massage? ;-)
Full release massage?
Gets a green thumb from me!
I had a same sex massage recently. The woman who did it was very thorough. I practically floated home.
I really should look over my comments before posting lol? Dam that predictive text!
I don’t have to go ask the population of Ireland if I can get married so my gay best friend shouldn’t have to either…
So the constitution is a worthless document in your eyes… how very un-democratic of you.
The Constitution is silent on the issue of who is allowed to marry. There is no definition of marriage in the Constitution. It is possible for a Government to legislate for marriage equality without running a referendum first.
Hmmm just re-read my comment there couldn’t seem to find where I had wrote that in my eyes that the constitution is worthless.
I do not have to go to every door in Ireland and ask everyone is it ok with them that I marry the person who I am deeply in love with, who I want to share the rest of my life with so why should he have to?
What about other constitutions that have been changed? If we all had your view the world would be a nastier place. We’d still have slaves, women would’t be able to vote and the colour of your skin determined weather you could vote or not…did those people who stood up for these changes think their Constitution was worthless or did they just want to make a change? A change that would make the world a better place for the people in it!!
But I guess you and your brigade could just go get out some paper and a clip board and go out to every home in Ireland and ask them to stop reproducing gay babies? How about that?
This is a bogus argument to be honest. Ultimately rights are conferred by the rule of law in any society. We may claim to be able to do anything as a right but if the law of the land we live in doesn’t allow that then in reality we don’t have the right. I could claim the right to go out and kill somebody but the law of the land says that I can’t do that. It is the law that defines rights.
And while I know the constitution doesn’t specifically rule out gay marriage it would be far better than this was explicit in the constitution as opposed to being implied because it rules out the possibility of a legal challenge to any law passed and also it will make it far harder for any government in the future to limit or remove that right.
And Roisin you completely undermine your first point in your subsequent comment. As you point out Constitutions all over the world have been changed to ensure that rights are conferred on minority groups and to give protection and you welcome that. Slavery is abolished because the rule of law in most countries makes sure nobody has that right. So why would you not welcome this Constitutional change?
Jim, we are told that we have certain unalienable rights. What gives us these rights are not governments passing laws or legislation or the pieces of paper that they are written on, but by our birth. We are all, upon our birth, given unalienable rights which include, but not limited to life, liberty, freedom, right to a save life, so long as it doesn’t infringe on anyone else rights. Some laws protect theses rights but there are other laws that are trying to suppress these.
Well said Jim, it is annoying how some people shoot from the hip spouting on about morals and rights without actually understanding the laws that uphold said rights.
@Brian, and then it would be equally possible for the Iona nutjob homophobic types to keep said legislation tied up in the courts for decades. A Referendum is the safest and best way of doing things because it gives a definite answer and solution to the issue.
why are couples having to go to “every door in ireland and ask is everyone ok with it” ??? stop now with the hysterics woman and you harp on about the world being a nastier place ?? its pretty fcuking nasty from what i can see and there are plenty of slaves still in the world in the traditional sense and in a modern sense,so please come down off your soap box,people are entitled not to want gay marriage as much as people are for wanting it,we’ll vote and that will decide,i think they call it democracy
Gerard… if you dont want gay marriage, then dont get gay married.
Its not compulsory.
The only reason you have to ask is because marriage is contract law with 3 entities in the contract- man, woman and state or man, man, woman, woman and state. So the state being the third entity has to get permission from the people to make it legal.
Now if either man or woman want to divorce- breach the contract- then permission must be sought from the 3rd party- ie court corporation as it is contract law. The state will never default on its side of the contract, so it stays it looses nothing.Seek divorce and all assets go into the court to be divided out according to the party who did not default on the contract.
Still want to enter the INSTITUTION of patriarchal marriage ? or go back to the Irish way with only 2 parties making verbal contracts.?
ricky you are clown on a level ive never before encountered !!! read the comment again and stop trying to get smart it doesnt suit you
The figure that really annoy me here are that almost a quarter of the public will vote for Fianna Fáil if a general election was called tomorrow. Sickening!
Reg the reason that this figure appears is because that’s how many people have been looked after by Fianna Fail; as a political hack you should know this !
Ansbacher, Anglo shares , etc. I’m sure you know yourself ; hush now don’t let Paddy know !
Well spotted Reg, a frightening statistic indeed!
The difference between the two paties is 1 % so really just shows “two cheeks of the one arse” in fairness.
Remember Phil Hogan asked for people to loan FG their vote, the evidence is they have treated that “loan” with contempt.
In fairness, he was specifically asking FF supporters for a loan of their vote and a FF supporter deserves nothing but contempt anyway.
I wouldnt read too much into that Reg. These polls have differed wildly over the past year. Some have sf as the second largest party and this has ff way ahead of sf so its hardly a true reflection. I hope
I find the high proportion leaning towards Independents just as concerning. On the surface it seems like a good thing, sort of like “Yay, no more major parties”, but in reality it’s a whole load of local parish pumpers and single issue faux-Socialists.
Excellent news. It does seem to counter some more right wing conservative arguments on Ireland being a “catholic” country that will oppose this on all grounds.
A shame we’ll have to wait until 2015 for a referendum, though I believe putting people’s rights to popular vote is disgusting. Putting it on the same day as MEP/ local elections would have guaranteed a decent turn out, and these things hinge on a high voter turn out.
Did you really expect our wonderful government to show enough common sence to have put the referendums on the same day as the European & local election. Well it could be dangerous with the newly dicovered illness of referendum fatigue. Its a bit like gobshitaphobia.
3 separate votes on the same day? The Red Cross would have to set up refugee camps to deal with the confused masses stumbling out of polling stations.
I just hope they get their ducks in a row and make the voting forms clear. The more we have to vote on at the same time, the higher the chances of mess-ups. Also, the Referendum Commission is really going to have to up its game. Their “information campaigns” have left a lot to be desired so far.
This is great news I don’t know why people are still against this . Love is love and two consenting adults should have the right to get married regardless of their sexual orientation. . It’s only a pity it will take so long to be brought to a referendum
I look forward to the hate campaign by repressed bigots obsessed with bumsex and hot girl on girl action.
Remember, God hates prawns, peircings, polycotton, periods, and paraplegics as much as he hates teh gay! Read your Leviticus, kiddies.
Why would you look forward to a hate campaign?
Sounds like your little rant is more of an attempt to bash religious people than actually engage in proper debate.
If you “look forward” to a hate campaign then you are no better than those you wish to mock.
Why don’t you have a sense of humour?
Daisy
Sounds like you have a little hate campaign of your own going on there . A few issues with religion have we ?
It’s a bit makey uppy, isn’t it. Virgins and Zombies and worshipping a genocidal maniac who created two people who had kids, who then had to have had a lot of incestuous sex with each other to populate the planet. Cannibalism of a Sunday when you eat zombie flesh, magicked up by a celibate man in a poncho…
Personally, the Harry Potter series is more realistic.
Issues with bigotry Memphis, there’s a difference. My Nana is one of the most religious people I could ever fathom. Yet she has never once used it to condemn someone else, an 83 year old woman who was raised strict Catholic hugged a friend of mine who had just come out and told him that god loved him for who he was. But while the church continues to use 3000 year old tripe to repress a group of people who have done nothing to deserve it I want nothing to do with despite the shining example set by my grandmother and I will speak up against this whenever it’s needed. When people use their religion to repress others for no other reason than to be hateful it’s an excuse. As has been mentioned here, I sincerely hope you’ve never worn mixed fibres or eaten selfish. Twill be hell with all the sodomites for ya.
Daisy
It amazes me how some people feel it is ok to slag off and ridicule those who practice religion (I don’t by the way) but the the minute you express an opinion that the gay mafia don’t like you are branded homophobic and a bigot !! Double standards. You should learn a bit of respect, your mocking just makes you sound very immature.
Respect is earned. You’ve done nothing to deserve mine.
Great response ! You’ve really put me in my place with that one……..
Gay mafia?! Can someone please make a version of the Sopranos where Carmella’s a drag queen?! Ohmygod…
How many of the pro-gay advocates on here were raised by gay parents I wonder,probably none yet these same people would happily deny a child a mother and father.
Martin, if you have the inclination please read my reply to Memphis further down but to summarise in case you don’t. Alan Shatter has already said he will be addressing the rights of children in “non traditional” settings in 2014 before the referendum on SSM is ever held which means that arguing against SSM purely on the grounds of the children is not valid. You will just have to admit you do not like gay.
There is an old saying. Those who are rearing should be sparing, while it may not be your children it could be their children. I will never see 60 again but I will be voting YES
yep won’t affect my life in any way
I will definitely be voting NO! The thought of two men having sex sickens me to the core. I shall be pounding the doorsteps and handing out lefatlets outside shops to stop this unnatural deplorable act becoming law
“Man should not lay down with man” as the old Testament declares.
Are you Jewish Brian seeing as the Old Testament is jewish religion ; I fully respect your right to express your opinion by the way !
Don’t think about it as it shouldn’t affect you.
Oh look, a rabid bible badger quoting the Old Testament. If that’s your argument against same sex marriage, I shan’t worry too much. Hope you’ll be campaigning at the same time against polyester and oysters, since they’re both equally abominations in the Old Testament.
Oh, and make sure you advocate for allowing a man to legally sell his daughter into slavery!
*basher
Do you think about two men having sex often Brian?
Wow, you felt so strongly about it that you made a brand new twitter to post it.
I am Catholic. Catholics believes in both books of the Bible
You are right Brian,
I mean people just ignore all the good stuff in the old old Testament,
Its important that we live by the old Testament, so that means
- Women can’t wear pants
- If people work on Sundays they should be killed
- Nobody can wear clothes of two different cloths, they must be killed also if they do
Now Brian, as Holy as you are I’m sure you’ve broken atleast two of those rules. So, this means you’ll have to find somebody to kill you….because you can’t kill yourself, no no….thats a awful sin.
Reply to John
No I very rarely think of sodomy
Don’t fee the troll!
The Bible says a lot of things brian. . . Have you actually read it
It’s ok Brian, no-one’s going to force you to have sweaty bum-sex with another man if you don’t want to. ;)
Frankly my dear, no-one gives a damn whether or not you condone anyone else’s sexuality. What other consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is their own business. Everyone should have equal rights under the law.
Ah, so John clearly thinks that refusing marriage equality will dissuade men from having sex with each other. I would suggest that if the thought of two men having sex sickens him, he should stop running gay porn scripts in his head. Having a dirty mind is no reason to deny equality to other people.
Sorry, that should read Brian, not John (damn the lack of an edit facility!)
Um.. Suggest you not think about it then. Just a thought.
You are entitled to your beliefs Brian,but you are not entitled to make everyone else in the country abide by the rules of your beliefs.
You could think of two women if that helps?? :-)
“Pounding the doorsteps” … handing out “leaflets”… Is that what you kids are calling it these days?! Wink wink, nudge nudge ;)
As a citizen who likes to play a full part in the democratic process, as it is denied to so many people around the world, I always vote in elections. I am 83 and that is a lot of elections!
Voting YES in the referendum would be condoning sodomy, therefore I have to vote NO.
I am old fashioned and a good Catholic. Homosexuality is against my religion. I cannot help the way I am. I get the feeling most of the commentators on this blog are young
I’m 57. I sometimes like to think I’m young, but I’m not really. Personally, I don’t see age or religion as a bar to an open mind.
Being old is no excuse for bigotry.
When you meet St Peter at those pearly gates he may raise your bigotry with you.
Brian voting for gay marriage does not mean your voting for gay sex. . .Sure that’s stops after marriage
So don’t think about it and mind your own business? As long as you’re not forced into a homosexual marriage I don’t think you have any right to cry about it…
Chris – I am too old to change at my age!
Anyway me ranting here wont change anything. There is a clear majoirty in favour of it and there is nothing I can do about it. I just want the old Catholic Ireland I grew up in back again!
Do you shave Brian? Leviticus also condemns shaving and wearing clothing made of synthetic materials (polyester, nylon, etc)…I presume you abide by all of these rues, being a ‘good catholic’ and everything? Surely no ‘good catholic’ would pick and choose which parts of the bible they live by? ;)
Brian, doesn’t your religion teach you to love your neighbour, turn the other cheek and judge not lest ye be judged? Seems to me you’re being awfully judgey for a “good catholic”.
Also, look at you using computers, the Internet, social media – they weren’t around in the “good old days”, were they? You’ve changed in that regard, why not in others?
Other posters are right, age is no excuse for sheer bigotry.
Brian, firstly well done on making it to 83 but to let you on a little secret, your hatred is based on the writings of some 3000 year old desert monkeys, none of is true. Dump the religion and let go of the hate.
Ah good old catholic Ireland!
Where men could legally rape their wives, homosexuality was illegal, pregnant teenagers were locked up, where a ban on contraception meant women were regarded as little more than incubators and where a priest who raped children was just moved to another parish.
What a lovely place it was!
“The thought of two men having sex sickens me to the core.”
Whilst we’re all thoroughly interested in hearing about your sexual preferences, sex has NOTHING to do with marriage.
Ah yes, the good old days where women couldn’t work and priests could happily have a good group of little biys….sure it only sounds like a dream come true…
With respect, Brian, I definitely wouldn’t want that! I’m all for people observing their own religions but totally against any one religion dictating the laws of the land. The law is for all citizens, not just those of a particular faith.
You’re not a catholic Brian. There isn’t one catholic in the whole world.
There is however, a shitload of hypocrites.
“Achievement unlocked! You are now troll level: Kevin Myers!”
Brian, should you swing by my house, I will call the authorities and report you for spreading a message of hate and harrassing me personally. I’ve done nothing to you. Do not call to my door and criticise how your ‘god’ made me. You can’t help your age you say, I can’t help my sexuality. A good Christian would live and let live. Treat others how you wish to be treated yourself etc etc etc. Read your book again
Did you pick up a bar of soap while showering in prison or something?
Ok, you can put a note on your voting card that you are ok with two women having sex as long as it is not two men lol
Tell me more about these bible badgers Fiona they sound amazing. :)
Brian, if you get morality from the Bible it is a very strange source to choose full of contradictions and superstitious nonsense.Hopefully you realise morality predates Religion and can be shown in 6month old babies(Prof Bloom research Yale) who obviously are oblivious to dogmatic religious teachings.
What is your opinion on homosexuality in the animal Kingdom? Humans of course being evolutionary speaking the fifth ape also display homosexuality.If God made everything how come it is observed in nature? And since you don’t like things which are deemed unnatural it is unnatural to be celibate so thoses priests must also come in for condemnation.
Your Religion and it’s teachings come from a time long before we as a species had a full working understanding of scientific evidence on any topic you care to imagine.So why would you base how you are as a person on such outdated dogma? Just look at the differences you would have seen in your own lifetime in how the world has changed and try imagine that change over two millennia.
Brian you may be 83 but you’re never to old for logic sense and reason.
What good old Ireland Brian,the one where contraception, divorce and being gay were illegal.The one where unmarried mothers were treated like criminals,while the priest stood up on their pulpits and condemned them and then went home to have sex with their housekeepers and have kids.The one where the government had to ask the bishops permission before they could got to the toilet.and i wont mention the child abuse or the laundries because i will be here all day.good old Ireland,well you can keep her i dont want anything to do with it.
Brian lydon, do you wear clothes of mixed fabrics or eat shellfish? Because those are banned in Leviticus too, try reading your own book of mythology.
Exactly, my Dad is 75 and he is also pro-choice and pro equal marriage. Age is no excuse for bigotry.
Er, Brian, you do realise that sodomy, as you so charmingly put it, was decriminalised here twenty years ago? Back when you were a sprightly 63. There’s been twenty whole years in this country of men having a wonderful time consensually and legally sodomising each other.
Of course, the majority of sodomy happening in this country is still between men and women. Some of whom are even- gasp!- married to each other. So if bumsex is your problem, do you plan on knocking on the doors of every hetero married couple in the country to see if they warrant your disapproval? You could be quite some time, you know..
Also, you “cannot help the way you are”? Get over yourself. You have a brain. You use it to think. You are well able to use that brain to change your mind about things. I’m sure that there have been times in your 83 years of life that you have changed your mind. Me, I used to hate olives and now I love ‘em. Changing your mind and respecting the human rights of your fellow citizens? FAR easier than changing your mind about whether olives are tasty.
And finally. You may be a Catholic, and you have the right to your Catholicism. Nobody’s going to take that away from you. But you do not have the right to impose your Catholicism on me, or any of your fellow citizens. I have the right to eat meat on Fridays, to never darken a church’s door, to eat Mars bars every day in Lent, to work on Sundays, and to take all the birth control my doctor will prescribe me and my pharmacy will sell me. You have the absolute right to not do those things.
Similarly, I have the right to love who I do, and- whether you find it squicky or not- have the right to have my love and commitment recognised equally with any other person in this country.
Got a problem with that? Don’t marry another dude. Then build a bridge and get the hell over it.
I hope you don’t wear clothes made from 2 different materials bryan. or eat pork. Seeing as you’re going all old testament on us…
Well said Aoife
And what about two women, Brian? Oh and also, they will have sex regardless of what you vote, in case you didn’t cop that.
I am 65 and will be voting yes
Yes it does kevin because you can only have it if you’re married, remember? The good old days!
The Old Testament also endorses slavery, so you must also support that ?? Will you be banging on doors and handing out leaflets demanding your religious right to slaves ??
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Well that’s my Christmas list sorted in one fell swoop!
Let’s try that another way:
“Women are treating the vote like it’s the latest fashion trend they must acquire.
Democracy will not hold the same value in society once it is completely refined (sic) and open to anyone. If everything is special then nothing is special. Sad to see people try to erode such a cornerstone longstanding part of society.”
And in case anyone thinks I’m exaggerating, have a look at this poster for an anti-suffrage association, set up by women – http://disinfo.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/1.jpg
There is no argument against marriage rights for gay people that we haven’t already heard against women’s suffrage, or interracial marriage, or contraception, or divorce, or whatever. When you’re using the same arguments as racists, etc, then you know you’re using the wrong argument.
She’ll be kicking herself but, in a way, Ms. Kelly got it (accidentally) right by saying “refined” instead of the tired old ‘redefined.’ It really is about refining things so that all of society can benefit.
I’m still shocked that FF/FG are getting 49% of the vote
The worry ild have about this , is the right wing muppets will all come out and vote on the day …. the yes side I would have doubts about
While that is a possibility, as supporters of SSM we should make sure that everyone you know goes out and exercises their right to vote!
When has a gay man been convicted with sex crimes against children or women? I am almost sure there is not one gay man in jail for any sex crimes? And this Same sex marriage should not even be an issue Give it to the people let the vote be cast and put in our constitution for once and for all and let’s all get on with our lives And let everyone else get on with theirs
Ive no problem with same sex marriage but bernadette i dont see your point of gay men not abusing women or children. Whose to say priests who abused young boys are or arent gay. people who abuse children are paedophiles pure and simple so i dont know how they can be classed as either hetrosexual or homosexual. And obviously gay men wouldnt be attacking women. Thats all
Well actually its possible since rape is about power and control not sexual attraction, I think the point is that there are plenty of straight men who are rapists and paedophiles yet that doesn’t mean that straight men are not allowed to marry. Gay men are often suspected of being paedophiles simply because of their sexual orientation which is entirely unfounded and simple bigotry. There are those who will say that gay men want to get married simply to get access to children which is disgusting and also stupid since a single gay person is already allowed to adopt just not as a couple since they cannot marry.
Has a single gay man adopted in Ireland? Has any single man adopted in Ireland? This is a genuine question? I know they can but has it happened? Also, I think the younger vote will come out for this referendum. We tend to get a higher turnout for morale/rights issues.
jesus christ woman are you fcuking mad ??? the world has done a 360,now gays can do no wrong and never commit sexual crimes !!! FFS
A 360 means you’re exactly where you started from. A 180 means you’re going in the opposite direction.
Why would gay people want to get married? A life of unhappiness awaits …
How many times have you posted that tired joke?
7
Cool…. keep em coming! :-D
So by your amazing logic straight people wouldn’t be allowed to adopt at all??
Dead right, ManOnTheStreet. Given that (at this moment) up to seven “thumbers” agree with him and disagree with the rest of us, it’s an indication that he is representative of a number of people with a VERY sick mindset.
Gay people are treating marriage like the latest fashion trend they must acquire.
Marriage will not hold the same value in society once it is completely refined and open to anyone. If everything is special then nothing is special. Sad to see people try to erode such a cornerstone longstanding part of society.
You’ve got balls the size of an elphant marie, fair play for speaking your mind.
yeah cus Celebrities getting married for money and press and getting divorced 3 days later is such a endorsement for the institution of marriage
*elephant
@Cliodhna – So you as as advocate of SSM treat marriage with contempt, as some sort of joke that celebrities play with it.
Brian O’Sullivan’s excellent rebuttal got lost up the page, so I’m pasting it in here:
Brian O’Sullivan said: “Let’s try that another way:
“Women are treating the vote like it’s the latest fashion trend they must acquire.
Democracy will not hold the same value in society once it is completely refined (sic) and open to anyone. If everything is special then nothing is special. Sad to see people try to erode such a cornerstone longstanding part of society.”
And in case anyone thinks I’m exaggerating, have a look at this poster for an anti-suffrage association, set up by women – http://disinfo.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/1.jpg
There is no argument against marriage rights for gay people that we haven’t already heard against women’s suffrage, or interracial marriage, or contraception, or divorce, or whatever. When you’re using the same arguments as racists, etc, then you know you’re using the wrong argument.”
Assuming your married how will two men or two women getting married devalue your marriage?
When she says that “society” will value it less, she really means SHE will.
@mariekelly, when you compare marriage to a fashion or commodity, you only serve to cheapen it yourself.
Thanks Chris!
Marie is back!!
Love it….
Lets all sit back an watch the crazy ensue!
No I don’t treat it with contempt at all I just find it funny when people bring up that argument as a reason to stop people getting married. Given the amount of tv companies and magazines whose whole revenue is from train wreck weddings surely as a someone who feel marriage is about love and commitment you would want for people to get married for those reasons and only those reasons? I’m sorry but getting married is not a fashion accessory for any of my gay friends – one couple have been together 20 years, they own a house together, they’ve built a life together yet I as a straight person could go out tomorrow, meet someone and be married by the end of month….you tell me that doesn’t devalue marriage…if two people love each other and want to commit to each other then the state should recognize that and they should recognize it equally for all citizens. I don’t give a toss if religious groups don’t want to marry gay people thats their choice but the state should recognize everyone as an equal citizen and offer state marriages for all not marriages from some and civil partnerships for others.
LOL a fashion trend – good one Marie you are really helping your very weak argument.Sad to you kicking and screaming and clinging to a tradition which once it becomes all inclusive will not affect your precious Marriage what so ever. Your idea of Marriage is one that discriminates and excludes..yes very special indeed.
Marie you never answered the question put to you yesterday
Why should gay people not have access to children?
Marie, where do you get your statistics and ideas from, our of interest, because I can’t find anything to back up your statement that gay people are wanting to get married as a trendy thing to do
Oh its a fashion trend?! Christ, I’ve never been fashionable. Yes Marie, I only want to marry the woman I love because its ‘in fashion’. Not because I want to spend my life with her……
Every religion in the free thinking world oppose same sex marriage
Who is wrong?
You are… now go cry to the sky fairy
Oooo teacher teacher me! I know…..religion! Though you might want to do some actual research before making statements like “every” religion in the free thinking world(seriously?) opposes same sex maarriage
Maybe …. just maybe, its religion that is wrong?
Tell that to the many Christian and Jewish denominations that are not only fine with same-sex marriage, they are happy to celebrate them themselves.
Every religion in the free-thinking world is not actually the Roman Catholic Church and the Westboro Baptists, y’know.
Pastafarianism supports same-sex marriage. Your comment is therefore incorrect and invalid.
It’s a bloody disgrace that my basic
Human rights have to be voted upon, and that the government feels its acceptable to wait until 2015 for this, shame on you all. Your happy enough to tax me right enough for years, if don’t need a vote to know I’m equal but I’ll suffer the indignity for the betterment of all LGBT people, I hope you will look back on your laxity and cowardice with shame, you mad add it to a long list.
You do realise the whole point of having a referendum is to ensure that same-sex couples have the right to marry enshrined in the constitution, right? They’re going out of their way to ensure that no legal challenge could be brought against it thus getting same-sex marriage out there faster.
They could legislate for it tomorrow but you know full well that groups like the Iona Institute would entangle the legislation in years worth of legal challenges. So in this case which is better?
I’m well aware of that, my beef is in the fact that basic human rights in 2013 have to be voted on rather than being a given, the government as a representative of the Irish people should have the balls to protect and promote my human rights rather than people like me having to ask/fight for them. Any you had the Likes of Kenny who waited until this week to openly support our cause, politics is nothing but a modern evil
While I agree with you, it doesn’t change the fact that doing so would require a change in the constitution. It is a central point of our national identity that the people must speak before a change to the constitution can be made. Would you rather give Kenny the power to change the constitution at will?
I also think it was a smart idea for Kenny to remain silent on his support for same-sex marriage until now. I’m sure if he was openly supporting same-sex marriage six months ago then FG would have had an awful time getting the abortion legislation passed as the right-wing zealots would have been even more galvanised.
No I don’t think any one individual should be able to make constitutional change, but I also fail to see how a constitution set down in 1937 ( I think) is supposed to reflect modern times,
What’s going on currently in politics in Ireland is reflective of reactive thinking instead if proactive initiative, ministers sitting idle until something tragic or incriminating occurs to effect change.
The constitution should be reviewed every 2 years and changes made accordingly, a census type document could be used to generate national trends on topics which could guide national policy, legislation etc.
We need an Ireland that reflects self determination for individuals, removed from catholic influence. a culture based on enforced social morals becomes stagnant and demoralised, freedom of choice should be paramount and let individuals take responsibility for the consequences of those choices
Ssm not going to happen. The majority of over 50′s will vote against, especially outside of Dublin. I hope paddy power is taking bets on the result, i’ll lamp my communion money money on a no vote.
Are you and Brian Lydon playing tag?
As we seen from the Seanad referendum, Dublin can carry a vote on it’s own.
I’m 43 in Dublin and won’t be voting for this.
That’s fine Memphis.
The ,yes’ side will outnumber the far-right on the day.
Ricky,
I honestly doubt that, you may have a lot of support here on the journal, polling day will be very different.
There are fewer red necks than you think.
Nope… Even in the streets, the far right are outnumbered.
The “No” bigots will lose & another pillar of religious fundamentalist Ireland will fall.
Maybe on your streets. I don’t hang around gay bars.
Memphis, I’m straight, I don’t hang around in gay bars in general but I have been to a few in the past and had a great time, didn’t even see any bum sex or scissor sistering either, I also live in rural Ireland and I’ve yet to meet one person who is adamantly against same sex marriage. You should face the facts that your views are those of the minority but since this is a democracy you are free to hold those views even if they are bigoted, doesn’t mean you get to dictate to the majority. The issue of SSM was brought to the constitutional convention because of public demand. Rest assured, it is very likely that a referendum on equal marriage will pass, you may not like it but you will just have to accept it.
Hey! I live in ‘that rural’ and I voted yes to keeping the Seanad and so did my constituency and I’ll be voting yes to SSM! Takes all sorts you know :)
But I did marry a Jackeen ( at least I was able to marry him!!)
There isn’t a gay bar in my area, good old rural Ireland, but when I lived in Dublin I did go to the George & Front Lounge occasionally with some of my friends who are gay and had great nights out but now I live in “bogger” Ireland, nearly all if my social circle are for SSM, the only one against is quite religious & is anti anything her church tells her she should be anti but that’s just 1 person. I think if there is a high turn out to vote then SSM will be legalised
Before you give me red thumbs for this im sure plenty of people can disprove this theory but its a funny story. I know a brother and sister who were brought up by their gay uncle…not in ireland..the girl is now a lesbian and the guy recently tried out being with a man but now says hes straight. I havent formed an opinion but thats the only example ive seen. I know its only a coincidence.
So what’s your point then?
Where is this going Rory.
I know several gay Irish people raised by straight parents. Is that a coincidence?
Jim and ricky i was just sharing something i witnessed. Im not against gay marriage at all and as for gay adoption i dont have a view either way except to say gay people would probably make great parents and we should always view it from the rights of and what is best for the child and not necessarily the rights of potential parents be they gay or straight
Ruairi, it sounds like you’re implying that kids raised by same-sex couples (or gay people) are more likely to turn out LGBT themselves.
And it also sounds like you’re implying that we should find that relevant in any way to absolutely anything. You know. Like you’re implying that we wouldn’t want kids turning out gay. Like being straight is somehow better.
Just.. that sure does seem like what you’re implying.
being straight is clearly better,it leads to procreation which is essentially why we are hear,if in the morning the whole world is gay then thats the end of mankind simple as that really so yeah being straight is better and is the way we were designed !!
They way we were designed? so who designed you then? By your logic I was designed to be gay and you are automatically better than me because you are straight and can reproduce – well so can I ..Are we equals now?
Christ Gereard… did you just wake up from the 1950′s or something?
For your next act will you tell us that homosexuality is a “lifestyle choice”.
If the whole world was gay! Bit of a stretched argument wouldn’t you say? I am in no way superior to any gay person just cause I can procreate with a man that I am sexually attracted to. We are equal.
Gerard: I could as easily say “being gay is clearly better, as you don’t have to worry about unwanted pregnancies. There’s a huge industry devoted to making sure people get to have sex without getting pregnant, so obviously the people for whom that isn’t an issue are better”.
Of course, that would be ludicrous. Because it is ludicrous to judge people’s relationships by whether they are (or are not) capable of fertilising an egg together without any outside help.
@Gerard Tuohy
straight people get pregnant
gay people get AiDS
straight men push prams (after 9 months)
gay men push stool
@Hanneke Vermolen
”we are equal”
did he have to endure the pain of giving birth ?
well then you are not 100% equal
@ Ruairi Colton
gay couples encourage their ”children” to be themselves aka experiment
straight couples encourage their kids to act normal
What absolute garbage.
Straight people also get AIDS, straight people usually don’t have a child every time they have sex, many choose not to have children. Straight couples sometimes engage in anal sex, are you ok with that as long as its a woman being penetrated? You seem to dislike gay men a lot, presume you have no problem with lesbians or getting your jollies to lesbian porn. Not all gay men have anal sex, why are you obsessed with sex? Marriage is about love. Are you actually full of irrational hatred or are you just a troll?
You’ll never have to endure the pain of giving birth, you’re not equal to a woman so?
Straight couples have gay children, where do you think gay people come from? Mitosis?
‘Normal’ is subjective ( google the word ‘subjective’)
Why have you italicised the word ‘children’? A gay man can father a child, a gay woman can carry her own child, have you not heard of sperm or egg donation or surrogacy? Do you think that adopted children are not really the children of their parents because they are not their biological children?
What if you have a child that turns out to be gay?
The intolerance and under-education is mind boggling.
Welcome back Karl, your points though are so ludicrous that I don’t have the desire to argue them with you.
Like it or not, agree with it or not and each to their own, but homosexuality is a deviation of natural order, make of that what you will, I have nothing against people who live this lifestyle, i have no anomosity or ill feelings towards them, but that is a fact. Homosexuality offers no benefit to the human race , as a species our primary purpose is to prosper and procreate. As a collective society we should not condone or discriminate people for choosing to live this kind of lifestyle. Live and let live. but we should also not collectively endorse this type of relationship which is what we would be doing by legalising same sex marriage.
You say you have no issue with homosexuality…. then state that you do have an issue with homosexuality…
Cinfused much John?
Are you seriously suggesting that if we allow same-sex marriage the majority of human beings will suddenly stop reproducing? I think that is highly unlikely. It’s a rather poor argument against this measure.
Even if I gave this argument any weight I would also point out that as a species human beings are already reproducing way above replacement levels to the point where we are exhausting our environments ability to sustain our species. So potentially anything that lowers this replacement level to sustainable values might actually be welcome.
Anything humans do is natural.
Or are you suggesting gay people are supernatural?
You shouldn’t speak about things you don’t understand.
Next time you are feeling ill, remember to turn down them unnatural drugs that will heal you.
“I’m not a bigot but…”
You argument is based on procreation?
Jeepers, I would have thought the human race needed a little less of that! For the sake of prospering and all that.
Ok, let me clarify. I have nothing against gay people, how they choose to live their lives is their own business. I don’t agree we should be enshrining into our constitution that homosexual relationships are on equal footing with male/female relationships. We as a society should not punish people for lifestyle choices but we certainly should not endorse them either. Peoples alternative lifestyle choices should not be enshrined in the constitution. Hetrosexuality is not a lifestyle choice, it is crucial to our survival as a species.
Religious freedom is enshrined in our constitution.
That does nothing to help the survival of our species. Should we remove that?
@ManOnStreet. “Anything humans do is natural.”
Silly rebuttle, you could make the same claim for murder, violence, genocide… All natural right?
Actually there’s a number of evolutionary benefits to homosexuality. Firstly, it helps with the unsustainable growth in the population of the human race. It also provides the human race with providing ‘carers’ who can adopt children without parents… Finally, there’s plenty of gay animals examples (like the penguins in the American zoo) so your argument that it’s a deviation from natural order is also crap. Just because one group is a minority, doesn’t make it an unnatural minority
@Chris. Interesting points, However, I wouldn’t be looking to the animal kingdom to justify a human behaviour. There are also lots of other behaviours common and widespread in the animal kingdom that we would not accept in society, no matter how ‘natural’ they are.
Its the same when somone starts a post with:
“Now I’m not a racist, but…”
@Chris. Just to follow up of course they are many benefits homosexual people can offer to society. Their sexuality does not impede their potential to prosper or to be good people just like everyone else. I just (personally) do not think we should enshrine someones sexual preference into the constiution and place it on an equal footing with the traditional family unit.
John F said “Hetrosexuality is not a lifestyle choice, it is crucial to our survival as a species.” And how exactly would legislating for marriage equality affect this in any shape or form?
John… homosexuality makes you feel uncomfortable. Enough with the spurious science.
@Chris Crockford…Firstly, it helps with the unsustainable growth in the population of the human race.
What a pile of dung… there is plenty to go round once the politics are removed.
John, you contradict yourself repeatedly.
Our constitution is not there to ensure the survival of the human race.
If that’s your only argument then that’s fine. The referendum will pass by a landslide.
I’m straight women with no interest in having children to the point were I’ve spoken to my GP about having my tubes tide to make damn sure. If I’m not going to procreate should I be bared from getting married? What about my Aunt who had no kids and got married in her 50′s, should her marriage be dissolved as shes beyond baby making age? Or should women like me be put into some forced breeding program in order to be a “benefit to the human race”?
“We as a society should not punish people for lifestyle choices”
It’s not a lifestyle choice, when did you choose to become straight, should we not put infertile couples on an equal footing with fertile couples and so forth.
@JohnF. It’s as much a preference as is your heterosexuality. Homosexuality is a genetic trait. If you believe in God, then you believe that he created all humans. If you disagree with homosexuality, then you’re disagreeing with God. Just saying. Also, there is no such thing as a traditional family unit. By your rationale, single mothers should not be protected under the constitution.
@TheLoneHurler. Actually no, the planet doesn’t have unlimited resources so yes, there is a limit and the human population is rising exponentially
John F:
Do you really, really think that the only good that comes from relationships is children? The only social good they create is reproduction?
So.. relationships are about nothing more than procreation. I guess the loving someone, encouraging them to be the best version of themselves they can be, creating a home with them, supporting them through tough times, celebrating joys and being there for them when they need it.. those things mean nothing? And of course, you figure that happy people with loved ones who’ve got their back means nothing for society? People feeling secure in their relationships, knowing that when the sh*t hits the fan they have someone at their side- and knowing that that relationship is supported by the state if the sh*t hits THAT fan is.. pointless? I guess nobody would ever work harder and achieve more in life and contribute more to society when they’re surrounded by families who love and support them, eh?
Nahhh. For you it’s about nothing more than making babies. Wow. What a sad, sad world you must live in.
JOHN F. Please get it through you’re skull. Been homosexual is not a life style choice.
If it helps try to remember when you decided to be hetrosexual. Or was it something you always new without making a choice.
I didn’t choose to be gay you complete and utter ……….
Homosexuality has been recorded in over 400 animal species it its natural.
Where do the banks stand on this issue
Giving out loans for even more weddings surely would be a good money spinner… and some gays do love the glamour and frills… win-win for the banks.
@Jim Walsh. “Are you seriously suggesting that if we allow same-sex marriage the majority of human beings will suddenly stop reproducing?”
Absolutely not, but personally, I think the only kind of relationship that society should endorse is male/female – promoting the traditional family unit. A mother and father in a monogamous relationship is fundamental to the betterment of our society and the most suitable environment to raise children, this is why its recognised in our constitution.
This is one of the reasons I will be voting no in this referendum
What about the children that are being raised by gay and lesbian couples? Are their rights and protections to be forgotten because you don’t approve of the couple raising them?
I’m calling BS on your comments john, you think and I quote
I think the only kind of relationship that society should endorse is male/female – promoting the traditional family unit. A mother and father in a monogamous relationship is fundamental to the betterment of our society and the most suitable environment to raise children
Because our male/female marriages are doing such a great job promoting that ”traditional family” tripe aren’t we?
How many marriages end in divorce these days?
Is split custody / messy custody battles a suitable environment to raise children?
How many people out there are cheating on their partners?
Jim – you say that “…or a marriage where a father is physically abusive to the mother…”
While this does happen, it is worth noting that the largest group that are victims of domestic abuse in fact are males.
The rest of your point certainly holds value in the sense that a better environment for the kids is first and foremost, and if it happens to be homosexual partners that are able to provide that home then I am all for it.
The Lone Hurler, where do you get your information that males are the ones most affected by domestic violence? Incidents of men suffering from DV are sadly on the increase, sure, but they are still in the minority.
Studying to be a social worker Lone hurler. Your assertion that males are the predominantly the victims in domestic abuse is rubbish. There has unfortunately been a rise in statistics definitely but we are unsure as to whether that’s because of increased instances or increased reporting, hopefully it’s the latter as that would mean that there are more victims recognising that what’s happening to them is abuse, reporting the crimes and seeking help.
If the red c poll had of contacted 100,000 people and found that 75% of were in favour we could lend some credence to the result but 1000 a complete waste of time IMO, thejournal does not even get that percentage of yes voters.
The 1000 sample covers all ages & locations.
The same or similar sample size is used for all polls.
The poll directly contacted Irish households, whereas an online poll is open to anyone, from anywhere…
@ManOnStreet.
“Religious freedom is enshrined in our constitution.
That does nothing to help the survival of our species. Should we remove that?”
Absolutely not, People should not be discriminated against based on their religion or their sexuality. I am fully in favour of any anti-discrimination legislation. As I said earlier The traditional family unit – A man and a woman in a monogamous relationship is the best environment to rear children and the only one we should collective endorse and support as a society. We also should recognise that there are non-traditional families – lone parents, same sex couples and we should support these people but the only one we should endorse and encourage people to aspire towards is one enshrined and protected in our constitution.
@Deirdre Forde. Absolutely not, I have many gay acquaintances, I just don’t think we should collectively discriminate or endorse their sexual preference.
John, how do homosexual people achieve, as you desire, a hetrosexual family unit?
Why should two gay mothers “aspire” to be a hetrosexual couple?
Do they split & marry against their born sexual preference?….. cos that is a recipe for a life of sadness.
You are all for gay marriage (so you say), however when it comes to having access to raising a family, we should all “aspire” to be hetrosexual.
I wasnt aware being hetro was an “aspration” we should all work toward.
“We also should recognise that there are non-traditional families – lone parents, same sex couples and we should support these people but the only one we should endorse and encourage people to aspire towards is one enshrined and protected in our constitution.”
The constitution pledges that the state will support the family. It doesn’t define that family is one woman, one man and children. It should protect the family, same sex families, single parent families, adopted families, etc.
Also not a lifestyle choice!
We collectively endorse the sexual preferences of heterosexuals. Why not homosexuals?
@JohnF. Actually, research shows that children raised by gay parents are no different that children raised by straight parents. None of your arguments hold any weight and are based on religious ideals – now that’s a choice and IS protected in the constitution… go figure
And without referring to procreation, please.
@Chris Crockford. “Based on religous ideals” , I know you have been dying to place me in the religous box but sadly I must inform you I am non religous. My opinions are based on morals and ethics and what I feel is best for society. Thankfully, we live in a democracy, so your yes will count as much as my no in the referendum.
I will stand by my opinion and respect your right to stand by your’s.
I’m not religious. The thoughts of 2 men raising a child makes me want to vomit. A child needs a mother and father.
Might want to go see a doctor about that nausea, Memphis.
Her dirty mind might be a weight-loss thing, Aoife.
What about a single father raising a child?
Memphis, hello again. Just to clarify again with you. There are already gay couples raising children and Alan Shatter will be correcting the issue of children’s rights in non ” traditional” marriages in 2014 before the referendum on SSM so by 2015, the SSM legislation will make no difference whatsoever to gay men & women adopting/having children so to vote against SSM on the grounds of the children in not a valid one as their legal status with same sex parents will already have been dealt with so you may have to just come out (pun intended) and admit you are against SSM because gay men make you feel icky
So you hate single mothers then
Memphis is just fueled by hate,
He doesn’t need to rationalise it.
Ricky
You’re just an ignorant Gobshlte, I’m not a “he” . The clue would be in the word belle you uneducated moron. LOL ….
Tony ,
I don’t hate anyone, but I do feel a child needs a mother and a father. What on earth makes you think I hate single mothers ?
Daniel
A single father raising a child?
I wish them both the best of luck but feel sorry for the child not having a mother on the scene.
Hanneke, Hanneke…. I’ll give you this much, you’re about the only one from the no camp that is making any kind of logical argument as opposed to just calling me a bigot ! If what you say above is true I’ll back down, I’ve no interest in stopping anyone from getting married but I don’t agree with same sex parenting. I’ve no real interest in what gay men get up to contrary to what you might think. I work with 2 gay guys ( not partners) and would consider them friends as well as colleagues.
All a child needs is nurturing, love, compassion, fun and understanding, some one or individuals to guide and teach them to be ready for what life throws at them. They can get that from single parents mother or father, heterosexual parents or homosexual parents, people like me have do much love to give why should I be denied that just because you have a problem with gay sex
Same-sex marriage vote to be one of a number of referendums to be held in 2015 (via @thejournal_ie) http://jrnl.ie/1161346. Hello Memphis, if you read the article above you will see for yourself that what I said is true. I must add though that it shows you are not reading the articles you comment on very well before you comment. So does that mean you will now be advocating for a yes vote
Tony
“why should I be denied …..” It’s not all about you tony. Why should a child be denied a mother just because you want to play happy families with your boyfriend ?
As regards you having gay sex, I’ve said before I don’t care what you do behind closed doors.
Hanneke
If the vote has nothing to do with children I couldn’t care less which way it goes.
Well Memphis I think you should openly state that you will vote in favour of SSM then in 2015, here’s another link to what will be changed in 2014, thus making the referendum in 2015 solely about the right to marry http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Family%2520Relationships%2520Bill%2520Briefing%2520Note%2520(PDF%2520-%252056KB).pdf/Files/Family%2520Relationships%2520Bill%2520Briefing%2520Note%2520(PDF%2520-%252056KB).pdf
Fianna Fáil: 24 %
Sinn Féin: 16 %
i am happy the people who ”destroyed” this country
are doing better than the hypocrisy spewing c***s with blood on their hands
To thine own self be true, love is love! X
I think People need to understand the wording Equal rights here, it does not matter to me whether they are straight or gay, everyone has a right to marry, no church dictators here should condemn a gay or straight person, in the eyes of the law we are equal as straight or gay and human beings who have different feelings of two different same love relationships, i know lots of gay people and they are the most kindest and understanding human beings who are understanding and more caring than some straight people, the gay people know how to communicate better and they know how to really cheer you up and make you laugh when you are feeling down, the gay people have feelings too, and they look after their children really well and provide for them, i am straight myself but i would be in favor of two same sex marriages, they have as much rights as any of us here to marry,
who took the poll, who asked or paid for it. How fair and unbiased were the questions. How was the 1004 chosen, balance between rural and unban and age-groups, level of education and profession. Was the obvious concern for children being raised in a normal family with a M and W important OR was it a sentimental piece. 2ah sure let the poor “cratures” get married and be happy. IF the question on paying property taxes was confusing and government-designed I sincerely doubt the validity of this poll.
Children are already be raised by non man & woman families, single parents including widows and widowers. Children being brought up by same sex couples is not what the referendum is about. As already pointed out by me twice before. Alan Shatter will be addressing the issues of children’s rights in non “traditional” settings in 2014 so the referendum in 2015 will be purely to allow SSM
Why marriage is not defined as man and women in the Irish Constitution and indeed the American Constitution..?
FIRSTLY VIEW THIS POLICE INVESTIATION – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xufh8XysHJ4
The authors of the Irish constitution, in their worst nightmares, could not have envisaged a time when the state enforced and funded union of same sex couples eg homosexuals or brother and brother or sister and sister or mother and daughter or father and son.. would be considered as normal, as a “right”,,
In Ireland as in the USA, Canada, UK etc all of us should be “equal under the law”. This means we have freedom of association, meaning there is nothing stopping homosexuals from living together, leaving property or capital to one another etc. Also, state sanctioned marriage had the aim of increasing the population, therefore increasing the tax base. The state realizes that the foundation of a civil, productive society is the family. Promoting the same sex union of inherently non reproductive couples runs contrary to the spirit of all marriage laws, is detrimental to society and is an open attack on marriage, relationships between men and women, the family as a whole and children.
When we see the militant homosexual movement throwing human feces at parents in Germany, threatening violence and intimidating those in all walks of life who do not agree with their marxist/fascist ideology it’s time to make a stand.
This disastrous amendment to the Irish constitution, if passed, will be the final nail in the coffin for what remains of Irish culture and families.
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