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THIS JULY WILL mark four years since the Gender Recognition Bill was passed by the Dáil and the Seanad. Those new laws resulted in at least 297 people in Ireland being issued with gender recognition certs since July 2015.
The approval of the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) meant that Ireland became the fourth country in the world to give people a right to a gender based on self-declaration.
Previously, applicants would have to provide supporting testimony from endocrinologists and psychiatrists, a requirement that was dropped after fierce opposition from activists, who argued that this meant some people were “forced to get a divorce to have their gender recognised”.
Two years later, an amendment to the bill would make it possible for teenagers aged 16-17 to do the same if they had parental consent; the government is currently considering plans to allow teenagers aged 16 and 17 years old to self-declare their gender.
The campaign to secure the right to self declare is closely linked to the same-sex marriage movement, and separately, were advanced by the court battles of Lydia Foy against the Irish State.
Foy’s repeated legal actions to acquire a new birth cert led the Irish courts to admit that there was nothing in Irish law to allow for Foy’s birth record to be amended.
The GRA
Under the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), people who wish to have their change of gender recognised by the State – in birth certs, passports, driving licenses – would simply make a formal declaration of their “settled and solemn intention”, or to live in a preferred gender, to the Department of Social Protection.
In order to change your gender with the State, a person needs to sign a statutory declaration that states:
i) have a settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender for the rest of my life,
ii) understand the consequences of the application, and
iii) make this application of my own free will.
The Gender Recognition Bill, although widely praised, was criticised for not including the needs of those aged under 18, non-binary people and people with an intersex condition*.
Under the law, 16 and 17-year-olds are required to obtain a court order and testimony from a guardian in order to have their preferred gender recognised. Transgender campaigners argue that children should have the right to change their gender without needing parental consent.
If you are under 16, it is not possible to change your gender that is recognised by the State.
Earlier this year, a government-commissioned review proposed a system of gender recognition be introduced for children where parental consent was given, third-party support for the child and family was available, and there was a straightforward revocation process.
The Minister for Social Protection Regina Doherty was considering the implications of the recommendations in July and examining how they could be best put in place.
The numbers
Tonight at 9.30pm, RTÉ’s Prime Time will explore what it calls the “exponential growth in the number of young people seeking to change gender” and the implications of the proposed new law allowing them to do so without their parents’ consent.
A government report last year showed that 99 people had been issued with gender recognition certificates in 2017, and 109 in 2016. Of these, two applications by 16/17-year olds were granted in 2017, and six were granted in 2016.
A total of 297 gender certificates issued since the introduction of the legislation.
The RTÉ Prime Time programme also promises to examine “how society should treat ‘female-only’ spaces in the light of the growth in the number of transgender people”.
This is an examination of the argument that has been made by some, that people who have been born as a woman should only be permitted to use female-only bathrooms for example.
This is a debate that has gained momentum in the United States; a survey by Ipsos/Buzzfeed News found that 47% of Americans thought transgender people should be allowed to use the restroom of the sex they identify with”; this compares with 77% of those in Spain, and 66% in the UK.
Activists have argued that this talk is scaremongering based on little or no facts, and is possibly dangerous given that almost four-fifths of transgender people have considered suicide, according to a survey by the Transgender Equality Network of Ireland (TENI).
*Terms explained
Transgender is a term used to describe a person whose personal gender identity is different from the sex they were born as.
Under Irish law, if a person’s preferred gender is male and is changed with the State, then the person’s sex becomes that of a man. If it’s female, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.
Cisgender is essentially the opposite of transgender. It’s used to describe a person whose personal identity is the same as their sex.
Pronouns are an important part of the transgender transition, as they are a common marker of gender. If a person was born as a man, with male features, but identifies as a woman, that person may want to be referred to as “she”, for example.
Non-binary people is used to describe those who don’t see themselves as either masculine or feminine – or that aren’t bound to one specific gender. This could mean that they are neither, or that they might express a combination of masculine and feminine traits.
Intersex is used to describe a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. The UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights described it as those that “do not fit the typical definitions for male or female bodies”.
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This is a mental health issue and nothing more. Telling confused teenagers they can change genders at the drop of a hat doesn’t solve the problem
@Dylan Toback: 100%
@Dylan Toback: our method to date of telling them how to deal with it usually ends with a rope, a sharp razor or a bottle of tablets.
@Dylan Toback: The scary thing is some parents now changing the gender of their kids at a very young age – 4,5,6 etc. To try and re-assign a kid’s gender before puberty when they barely even know who they are yet is really just sick..
I’d say 21 should be the minimum age for any surgery because I’ve known more than a couple of people in their teens who have labelled themselves as transgender and done the whole new name, new look etc. all the while complaining about not being able to get testosterone or surgery before 16-18 only to then revert to being their old selves within a 6-18 months.
@Michael Bodycoach: so Micheal body coach, as a personal trainer, you don’t feel people should change on the outside to reflect who they are on the inside . So… if you are fat on the outside or fat all your life that person should never change ? I’d hate a personal trainer who feels changes on the inside can’t be reflected on the outside! You’re whole business is literally body transformation !
@Brendan Harlowe: nope. We’re talking about people who are fat on the outside but feel thin on the inside, wanting to he legally recognised as thin – i.e. in contradiction to the obvious reality.
@Dylan Toback: Its people like you, who make me feel sick, who cares what someone is or isn’t, It’s none of your business or mine, let people live their life without your bias and hatred getting in the way.
@Jä W: hello, grown-ups are talking here. If you want to join in, please get used to the idea that other people are going to have opinions that differ from yours.
@Dylan Toback: I thoink thats all Grahame Linehan was trying to say, and he was completely vilified for it.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Do you have ( Official) Stats on Suicides for eg, in Ireland, in terms of lead-up MH Issues?? And if so, how many high-end Teenage MH issues presented specifically as Transgender Dilemmas? And other Specific Stats on ‘presented’ Transgender data would be helpful too?
- Otherwise, unless you can FACTUALLY arbitrate for your comments, you are being Sensationalist.
@Dylan Toback: “Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical diagnosis, for which intervention is sometimes appropriate. It is not a mental illness.” https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/ Its not at the drop of a hat. It’s not just confused teenagers that the article draws attention to. It notes 18+ also. I’d love to know the figures of 20+, 30+, and so on. It is true that going through puberty is a challenging time, they can be confused, regrets can be made. Yet if it stops suicides, overwhelming discrimination, disrespect, etc, I’m all for it. We don’t call people identifying as cis gender as having a mental illness, transgender folk deserve the same respect that they give back to us.
@Dylan Toback: I doubt anyone is doing it at the drop of a hat as you put it. Glad you feel you could though,It’s not as easy for everyone else.
@Dylan Toback: as a trans woman has been living my life frame for 15 years I can tell you it does solve all the problems of gender dysphoria. I had to attend a psychiatrist for 2 years to get permission to just take hormones. since I transitioned my life is a happier one people accept me for who I am , a gentle feminine woman. I was not accepted as a male I was considered too soft and empathic. I don’t understand what is wrong.. I love the way not one trans person has messaged here yet you all feel that you have a right to express your opinion over our personal lives/ bodies / mental health.
@Jä W: Because it is everyone’s business when there is the greater potential for harm. See the r@pist housed in a women’s prison in the UK because he told them he was a woman. Obviously he went on to assault women. This only happened weeks ago. This is what is happening in the real world because of self-ID.
@LaVie Darkling: @LaVie Darkling: You didn’t keep your willy so you really are no threat to women. The problem is men who have no intention of transitioning who are now feeling entitled to all women’s private spaces and sports because of self-ID. See the Aussie man who already broke a woman’s leg in Aussie Rules because everyone is too scared to say he should not be playing women.
You are what you’re born with end of story.
Tell me what someone with both male and female genitals is. Or XXY chromosomes? You only have room for traditional males and females in your view and these people don’t fit either of your views, so what would you like to do?
@Rowe de Molay: it’s quite obviously a genetic issue, just like every aspect of everyone’s sexual identity and sexual orientation. Current societal standards, however, encourages transgender people to kill themselves. It’s our society’s way of dealing with this issue rather than include these people to be part of our society. And you are encouraging that to continue. Old methods of counselling and pharmaceuticals and even shock treatment are shown to have a negligible impact on suicide statistics. Allowing them self-identify, along with modifying themselves and granting them equality, has been shown to drastically lower suicide rates. Seems like most here prefer they kill themselves, which is rather a sad indictment.
@Rowe de Molay: Nature does not intend. It’s a role of the dice.
@Kamshafft: absolutely nothing to do with Transgender rights. What you are speaking of is something called duplicity. Tell me, has no man ever tricked a woman into sleeping with them? What you’re basically doing is trying to equate some hypothetical, rape-style scenario with the granting of Transgender rights which actually affects whether or not someone will commit suicide. Basically, you deem your own inability to deal with your own fragile sexuality in a purely hypothetical situation as more important than someone else’s life. That speaks volumes for your own morals and ethics.
@Kamshafft: It’s not a genuine question, though, as it has nothing to do with the legal debate.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Well that’s a fairly twisted interpretation of a fair argument..and therein lies a lot of the problem..too many people offended by every little thing thinking the world is out to get them..Most people are happy for someone to identify whatever they want and will show them the same respect they show everyone else..However for a lot of situations transgenders need to accept that that in certain contexts you have to be considered male or female..it’s just the way it is fair or unfair for instance there is now boys in schools in America competing in girls events..this is lunacy whatever way your mentally wired is one thing bit you are the way you are biloglogically..does this mean that by me having this view I want people to kill themselves..nope not at all
@: Rubbish.
@Kamshafft: It was a stupid question that got the answer it deserved from Brian.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Thetes absolutely no scientific consensus on trans, and the vast majority – 85% – of children who identify as trans later identify as their birth gender, and are comfortable with that eventually.
So, how do you scientifically account for that? You don’t.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Why are you so heavily emphasising the links between transgenderism with suicide?
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Stop using intersex ppl to try to make a point. They have nothing to do with self ID.
Making kids believe they have a choice. Getting into dangerous territory. This can only do more bad then good long term
@Anthony Power: Yes god forbid we give children choices!!!! You probably think they shouldn’t be able to drive at 16 either which is something that could hurt someone else unlike being true to their gender.
@TransgenderDate: ..huh?
@Anthony Power: I think that the McMartin preschool trial might show how vulnerable and easily lead children can become. Too many want children to become what they want and all that does is confuses them in trying to follow fashions and to get attention. Even bullying on social media should have shown how emotionally immature children are and then we try to confuse them before we let them become who they want. The problem is people have become too selfish, they care more about what they want than what others want and that is at the core of this?
@TransgenderDate: Children don’t know what they want, that is how the toy, fashion and the music industries get them hooked. By telling them what’s popular. In fact a human brain isn’t fully mature until the age of 30 and then we let children decide things that could end up damaging them for life. People don’t care about children they just are selfish and they just want to be seen as being right.
@Anthony Power: spot on
@TransgenderDate: you can’t drive at 16.
@Anthony Power: such as?
Serious question, Does that mean for example a 16 year old guy will be allowed to self declare as a girl and then do all the things a 16 year old girl can do. Examples…play on girls basketball team, use the girls changing room or go to an all girls school?
This is been discussed a lot but there is no global alignment on regulation in sports yet.
The Olympics committee have recently tightened regulations specifically around transgender participation however.
Some interesting cases here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports?wprov=sfti1
@John Horan: Yes and it is already happening. I’m on a phone but there are loads of examples both of men now dominating women’s sport (man broke woman’s leg in Aus as he is playing female Aussie rules) and of men using self ID to gain access to vulnerable women’s spaces. (Man assaults women in women’s prison, a few examples to be found online). The TRAs will have their gross argument that women already rape women so what’s a few more rape victims. TRAs hate women. This is a misogynist movement.
The world has gone mad. Please let there be life beyond this planet. This one has become to PC for me.
@Dave Barrett: Poor you, drop us a link to your GoFundMe page so we can have a whip around and buy you some ice-cream.
@Orla Smith: that’s the thing about leftists. You’re all very selective about who you sympathise with. If someone isn’t near the top of the intersectional oppression ladder, they might as well forget it.
@Kamshafft: Ah ha! It’s your nightly whiskey hour, welcome welcome!
You want to Buy me ice cream!! Stranger danger alert.
@Kamshafft: hmm, interesting. Back in the day when I used to do more posting in the comments sections, I think he/she was known as Tony.
@Kamshafft: Who made you like this?!
@Dave Barrett: just like everyone else here, you disagree with it. but nobody is saying Why. if you guys said why you disagreed with it, maybe you guys can carry a good reason.
instead all the comments are just salty people who dont have any education on the matter. and tbh, i’d say most of you never got any good sexual education in school either
A person can be who they want to be but gender is based on your DNA and that can’t be changed. People wanting to rewrite their past can’t be done as no one can undo anything in their past and changing birth certs might upset the parents as well as a child is under the legal guardianship of the parents until the age of 16 or 18. So parents might have more of a say than people might think.
@TamuMassif2019: Tell me what gender someone with XXY chromosomes is. Or 48, XXXX? You speak of a world in which there are only two possible chromosomal differences, XX and XY, when science says you’re wrong. Gender is not based on DNA. DNA determines gender to a large degree, but is not the sole determinant. Your populist thinking of gender shows only XX females and XY males, when we actually know of genetic XX males and genetic XY females. Your opinion says these people don’t exist. Geneticists say they do. So, who to believe. You with an ill-educated populist belief, or the thousands of scientists and decades of research. Just because your view is popular doesn’t make it accurate.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh Its the DNA that gives the sex hormones and sex organs.
@TamuMassif2019: correct. But not gender. Try again. And you still haven’t answered my primary question.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: you say that gender isn’t based on DNA, but then support your point by referring to the fact that some people have extra X chromosomes! Nobody is bothered by thosr people who are indeterminate being assigned the gender that best fits them. The controversy is around people who are physically one sex in every way that counts, changing their gender simply because they don’t feel like their sexual phenotype.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: It’s the DNA that makes people who they are from the cell to the body to the mind to their psychological make up. You can’t change reality because you don’t like the outcome, you can deny it and not face up to it.
“Body integrity dysphoria (BID, also referred to as body integrity identity disorder, amputee identity disorder and xenomelia, formerly called apotemnophilia) is a disorder characterized by a desire to be disabled or discomfort with being able-bodied beginning in early adolescence and resulting in harmful consequences.[1] BID appears to be related to somatoparaphrenia. People with this condition may refer to themselves as “transabled”"
“potemnophilia was first described in a 1977 article by psychologists Gregg Furth and John Money as primarily sexually oriented, in 1986 Money described a similar condition he called “acromotophile”, namely sexual arousal over a partner’s amputation.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria
People have a right to do what they want as long as they don’t hurt other but they should stay within the reality of the situation they are in. That is why gets me how they deny their DNA as a fact to turn it into a fantasy of what they want it to be. I am not denying what they feel or think, just how they try to change and deny scientific facts like their DNA.
@Squarepeg01: you’re confusing sex and gender again. You also don’t understand human psychology and its determining of human gender identification. You want me to believe that you, without education, are right and the science is wrong? Come back to me when you learn.
@TamuMassif2019: the fact is people like you have two words for two categories of sex and two categories of gender – male and female. Science says that while male sex and male gender are highly linked and while female sex and female gender are highly linked and while those groups are predominant in society, that they are not the only ones. Even your link proves you’re wrong. Your view still sees two when science acknowledges a lot more. And you’re still too blind to see that the link you use actually specifically rejects your viewpoint.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Your mixing up biology as in DNA / chromosomes with psychology and no scientist worth their salt would ever mix up those in such a wide leap of faith. As there is XX and XY chromosomes that makes up a female and a male. But too many people now try to justify what they believe to be right based on their own desires and they try to use this to shape reality according to what they want it to be, logical and scientific reasoning is never used but instead emotions are instead. Example girls develop mentally faster as a child than boys, this is a fundamental truth for the vast majority being trans later in life doesn’t effect this and this is due to DNA and because girls have more DNA than boys. So DNA has effect on everything especially on everything to do with the sexes.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: when you make a solid argument rather than cite to authority, I’ll consider myself schooled. Until tge…
Science is about measuring objective facts; the LGBTW movement wants to base gender reassignment on subjective feelings but it throws in a few references to chromosome disorders to make itself sound respectable.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: You are trying to convince me that a spoon is a folk as it seems. I am not denying the psychological make up of a person, I am stating that the psychological belief doesn’t change the physical reality. Wanting something so much doesn’t change the reality of it. We live in an age where everyone is glued to some form of device based on fantasy like cinema, TV, Games, music, Media as well as Facebook, twitter etc etc. Because of these pumping out gossip, fantasy and make believe I think that fundamental reality is lost in emotional fantasy. Scientific reality is being ignored and with this debate then it is the reality of a persons DNA. I think people are moving towards fantasy here when they want to fuse emotion, fantasy and science together and it is this that gets me. You can’t walk through brick walls…
@Kamshafft: The thing about Trans people is the media is absolutely full of Trans men having babies, men don’t get pregnant or have babies? Then post op trans women are men who have their testes removed, their shaft of the pen*s is mostly removed and forced up into them to become the top of their channel to make them more like a woman. So it is very complex cosmetic surgery, they still have their prost%te and the top part of their pen*s. It just seems weird to me to call this a post op woman?
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: https://youtu.be/ZBRCCfhK76M have a watch lad
@Damien Leahy: I wish we could get Ben Shapiro on Claire Byrne Live!
@TamuMassif2019: in Androgen insensitivity syndrome, where the body is completely insensitive to testosterone, a person is genetically male but ends up physically female but infertile. There’s also XX male syndrome, where a person is genetically female but physically develops as a male, many cases are due to an errors in the SRY gene on the end of the Y Chromosome.
Also, recent research have found a large proportion of Transgender and Transexual people (gender dysphoria) have a co-occurring Autism Spectrum Disorder or subclinical autistic traits. Autism is believed to be around 90% genetic.
There is variation in estimate of those with an actual diagnosable autism spectrum disorder, from 6% to perhaps over 30%, this wide variation is due to the severity of autism diagnosed, the higher estimate likely involves people with milder autistic traits which is hard to diagnoses in adults.
The reason for this link is unknown at this time. There is anecdotal speculation that because of the social isolation caused by autism during childhood, some autistic children and adolescents do not have a same-sex per group to feel part of and develop a confused sexuality as they grow up. Also, most (~90%) of children on the autism spectrum are bullied, often severely, usually by their same-sex peers and as a result they may choose instead to befriend children of the opposite gender who they feel are less threatening, perhaps leading to a confused sexual identity and gender dysphoria in later life.
Alternatively, there may be a hormonal reason for gender dysphoria, in particular female to male transexuals. This theory proposes that autism is caused by exposure to excess levels of testosterone before birth – the so called extreme male theory of autism, resulting in a more masculine brain (less social and more systematising). However, this interesting theory has moderate support, some recent studied have contradicted earlier findings (though I find these contradictory studies unconvincing, one study for example claimed the testosterone theory of autism wrong because testosterone levels, months after birth, were normal. But this is not what the theory proposes, it’s about testosterone levels before birth).
Regardless, there is robust evidence that Autism Spectrum Disorders and autistic traits are common in people with gender dysphoria and these traits play an important role in the development of some cases of gender dysphoria.
It is important to take this into account, as simply changing genders may not help a person’s underlying problems that may stem from unrecognised autistic traits.
References:
Strang, J.F., et al, 2018. Initial clinical guidelines for co-occurring autism spectrum disorder and gender dysphoria or incongruence in adolescents. Journal of Clinical Child & Adolescent Psychology, 47(1), pp.105-115.
Heylens, G., et al, 2018. The Co-occurrence of Gender Dysphoria and Autism Spectrum Disorder in Adults: An Analysis of Cross-Sectional and Clinical Chart Data. Journal of autism and developmental disorders, 48(6), pp.2217-2223.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Gender is entirely a social construct. You’re talking rubbish. Our sex determines what sex we are. You can identify as any gender you feel like but you cannot become another sex. Having fake tits and wearing makeup does not make a woman. Woman is not an identity you can pick up and put down.
@David Jordan: Autism is not believed to be genetic but environmental.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23931860-200-autism-can-bring-extra-abilities-and-now-were-finding-out-why/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2176807-exposure-to-insecticide-ddt-linked-to-having-a-child-with-autism/
“Although banned for decades in most rich countries, the insecticide DDT may be influencing whether babies born today and in the future develop autism. A study in Finland has found that mothers that show signs of high DDT exposure in their blood may be more likely to have children with autism.”
I think your argument is out of date and seems based more on speculation than facts.
@David Jordan: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/health/some-with-autism-diagnosis-can-recover-study-finds.html
https://nypost.com/2015/06/17/is-diet-the-key-to-curing-autism/
“While the scientific verdict is still out on diet as a cure, statistics point to a definite link between gastrointestinal issues and autism.
A 2012 study published by the Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology found a direct link between GI issues and behavior. As many as 70 percent of children with autism have gastrointestinal issues at some point during childhood or adolescence — and diarrhea, food sensitivity and constipation can cause extreme discomfort, leading to irritability, and erratic or withdrawn behavior.”
16 and 17 is way too young without parents consent .
@Darcy: they are entitled to change their mind as well ,maybe
@Darcy: 16/17 is way to young even with parental consent especially in the days of some mad parents trying to re-assign the gender of toddlers.
I’ve known personally four teens who’ve identified as transgender (all FtM) gone through the name change, look change, binding etc. and would be constantly complaining about being too young to take testosterone / get surgery.
None of them are identifying as trans anymore, I think the longest of them lastest 2 years before deciding to revert back. If the system had actually let these people take medication, surgery etc. it would have had damaging implications.
All I know is, I will be using the disabled toilets if things get hairy in that department!
@Geralyn Early: Martin Ponting / Jessica Winfield…
@c5cmGTDc: I said hello to a lady walking down the road yesterday. The abuse she gave me ! Turns out she identifies as invisible.
White, heterosexual male, soon to be in the minority.
@Malcolm Smith: FFS.
@Malcolm Smith: Although Transgender people do deserve rights I don’t think that that is what is holding back white heterosexual men from becoming transgender, most white men simply don’t have it in their nature to want to become a woman, if Transgender people’s rights is the only thing holding you back yourself don’t ascribe that to the rest of us, we’ll probably stay the majority.
@Malcolm Smith: white, heterosexual males have been in a minority since the birth of Homo Sapiens. There are more females than males. There are more Asians and Africans than White people. Therefore White males, both heterosexual and homosexual, have always been in a minority. They have, however, dominated every other type of human, including female, Black, Asian, homosexual, etc. including murdering them, enslaving them and segregating them. Now that other groups are finally standing up for themselves people like you get hysterical. Your comment is typical of racists, sexists, homophobes and, generally, nasty, despicable and violent people.
@Diarmuid Hunt: don’t worry bout me, hopefully will always be white, heterosexual male!!
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: wow that told me!
@Malcolm Smith: Then why are you worried? How does giving transgendered people rights affect white heterosexual men?
@Diarmuid Hunt: I am not worried at all!
@Malcolm Smith: So what’s the purpose of your first post?
@Diarmuid Hunt: started a conversation didn’t it? Only joking! Good night!
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: ah, the mask slips! This whole issue is driven by an overarching leftist radical egalitarian agenda which has the destruction of Western Judeo-Christian civilisation as its core aim. By the way, every race has done slavery. It wasn’t just the speciality of white men. Take your white guilt somewhere else.
@Malcolm Smith: You could well have a point there. No one saw this shit coming 40/50 years ago.
Monty Python would have a field day on this. “I’m not oppressing you, Stan — you haven’t got a womb. Where’s the fetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?”
they seemed to change their mind in the meaning of life,
“is it a boy or a girl?”
“Well it’s a little early to start imposing roles on it, don’t you think?”
I’m 35, I can’t choose to be 21, that would be ridiculous. Im white, i cant choose to be chinese, that would be ridiculous. You have a p*nis but choose to be a woman… completely ok…
@Michael Bodycoach: what if you have a p*nis and a va*ina? Or if you have chromosomes outside the standard XX female and XY male? Are you just going to bury your head in the sand and pretend those people don’t exist?
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: good man. Just keep asking the same question in different ways. Someone might reply to you at some stage.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: So because there are a very small number of people who are neither XY (male) or XX (female) we have to dispense with the whole notion of genetic sex and its relationship to gender completely? That doesn’t make much sense.
@c5cmGTDc: the point went straight over you. Blind people are accepted members of society. Transgender people are not. Transgender people are asking to be treated the same as other members of society, as we do with women, homosexuals, Blind and Deaf. They’re not looking for rights that will be denied to you. Just acceptance and inclusion.
@Donegal Doseofshh: Still no solid replies to him yet, I will have popcorn waiting in case someone tries to engage.
@Damon16: you don’t understand genetic sex and its relationship to gender, so why do you currently get to determine how someone else identifies? And why did you speak about dispensing with that notion? You don’t want it. I don’t want it. And the Transgender community doesn’t want it. This just highlights that you don’t even listen to them, so how could you even know what they are looking for?
@Donegal Doseofshh: well, you don’t seem to be capable of answering. So, until you can answer it and still justify the current system, I’ll keep asking.
@c5cmGTDc: Brian made a completely valid point. Why did you make a joke rather than actually address the facts he presented?
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: you seem to base your entire argument here in XXY XXXX etc . A vanishingly small section of the population generally and an equally small section of the so called transgender population . Can I claim Down’s syndrome disability just without D16 trisomy ?
@Liam Carlin: that’s not an analogy. What would be an analogy is to claim that Down’s Syndrome does not exist or that people with Down’s Syndrome should be denied rights, as people here seem to do with the Transgender community. If you agree with people with Down’s Syndrome having rights, how do you then justify denying Transgender people their rights? People are currently free in society to say they have Down’s Syndrome without repercussions. Identify as Transgender and you’re asking for a beating or to be murdered. And I’m not basing my entire argument on genetics. Simply countering those that play the genetics card without actually knowing a single thing about genetics.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: who is excluding trans people from society? Nobody is making them ride on the back of the bus. Ah, I get it. By ‘include’ you mean we should pander to their delusions?
Re blind people: you’re comparing apples and oranges. Nobody would have a problem with an eccentric blind person believing he can see until the point where he demands to be legally recognised as such. Then his delusion has public consequences.
@Liam Carlin: It’s Trisomy 21. Try to pay more attention when you read the next wikipedia article.
@Squarepeg01: Are you saying that transgender people suffer from delusions? That in effect they are suffering from a psychosis?
@Philip Kavanagh: maybe ‘delusion’ brings up too many negative connotations, so if you can find a kinder word I’d be happy to go with that. But yes, most of them are suffering from some form of mental illness.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: who is denying rights? I keep seeing this but it is never, ever, ever explained.
Travellers suffer more open discrimination in Irish society, and guess what a lot of us can see that. We don’t need to be travellers, sympathise with their plight or have some associated degree to see it.
Therein lies most of societies bewilderment at these claims of prejudice. No one can see it. It doesn’t exist on the levels claimed and the only reason this demographic suffers so much unnecessary deaths is because of the faux support in the form of “your right no matter what”.
There is no reason to demand special treatment, no reason to sanitize language, opinions or concerns, no reason to preform the same public shaming (that the community supposedly suffer from) on people who disagrees with the ideology, the name calling, the slander and in GL’s case the linking of his wife’s work address.
No one cares what your community, or person, does/thinks/believes, just leave children to be children and not try and induce them into the highest suicide and mental health demographic known to man.
But yeah, xx xy 001010010110101001 etc.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: i don’t have to answer to you.
@Liam Carlin: the population of people with Intersex variations is greater than the number of red heads and greater than the estimated number of transgender people. Just because you can’t see em doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Check out the UN Free and Equal Intersex Factsheet from the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights.
The first answer here is an excellent explanation of what’s going on:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-toxic-femininity-Does-it-exist
The humouring of the transgender movement is a perfect example of how our civilisation has become so toxically empathetic, it’s willing to redefine reality.
your gender is decided by your chromosomes, ie; nature ,you cant`t change that by mutilating your body. people no longer believe you can forcibly alter someone`s sexual orientation, why then is it ok to try to alter someone`s sexual gender? and also studies have shown that the number of people who regret their decision and attempt to reverse this procedure are away above the average, because the decision is irreversible.
@Patrick James Walsh: actually studies have shown that the level of transition surgery regret is less than general cosmetic surgical regret and commonly is more based on people’s expectation of the outcome being too high than a regret of the surgery itself. But keep peddling that.
Also altering someone’s sexual orientation doesn’t work and the forcible effort is harmful which is why it isn’t acceptable.
On that no trans people aren’t having their gender forcibly changed when they voluntarily seek access to transition related healthcare. But they are often forced to conform to a gender they don’t identify with which has a negative impact on their mental and physical health.
You analogy is actually mixed up, psychologically the harmful effects of forcibly trying to change someone’s sexual orientation are similar to those of forcing someone who is trans to conform to your comfort level when it comes to gender.
Many people arguing about trans being a mental illness while ignoring the best practice recommendations of the world health organisation, reputed psychological bodies and international human rights organisations in terms of treating gender dysphoria. Those who say trans people need psychological assistance (which I don’t believe) while simultaneously denying the practices in place based on recommendations by psychological experts.
If someone wants to change let them do it what business is it of anyone else?, its their bodies and they are not harming themselves so live and let live.
@Peter Hughes: Exactly. Their body, their choice and we should all respect that.
@Peter Hughes: I don’t care what they do to their bodies. That’s none of my business, but it’s also not the issue. If a person is physiologically a man, we should not be required by law to refer to him as female just because he desperately wants to he female. That’s mollycoddling someone in their delusions.
Personal Opinion: I’ve read nearly all of the comments under the last 2 articles regarding Transgender in Ireland and I am and am not surprised at the comments. I’m not too PC over things, I have a sense of humour and I’m not afraid to say “ah here would you get a grip”. Admittedly, I get wound up over a lack of understanding/education over a topic in which others feel compelled to speak up against without knowing anything. That could be said for 99% of the comments on this website however. https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/ Since you’re not in the mindset of a Trans person, non-binary, whatever your preferred pronouns are, you cannot say for definite that someone is completely F..ked up in the head for coming to the realisation of their gender dysphoria. A lot of the comments are old fashioned thinking or closed-minded, just like around the topic of Homosexuality. “You’re straight and that’s that”, just like most people are saying “You’re a cis man or cis woman, end of story”. Listen to those who identify the way they do. I, for one, was certainly closed-minded and openly closed-minded about the topic of “being trans”…until I wanted to learn more about the topic, lifestyle, whatever you may call it. I am a part of the LGBT+ (I know, I know chuck in the whole alphabet why don’t you) community since learning more about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Everyone is entitled to do as they wish with their bodies. If no one is hurting anyone, they are going about their own business and they treat others with respect. There is no reason to deny one’s right to be called their gender they wish to be called. I could go on and probably have more rambling comments to make. Yet it’s 2019, the act was introduced in 2015 and people still understand very little on the topic.
I can kind of understand the divisiveness of the issue. It’s a relatively new thing and it’s human nature to dislike things we don’t understand (I’ve a passionate hatred of maths cause I was forever s%#* at it and never understood it) and since transgender is something that wasn’t really a big thing until the last three or four decades it’s still new to people. Maybe in a couple of generations it’ll be more widely accepted but I don’t think this one not to sound rude to anyone who objects were all entitled to opinions but remember it took a lot of generations for homosexuality to reach the point of acceptance it’s at today, it’s not fully there yet but it’s a much better spot today than i think transgender people are.
@Awkward Jake: I can understand the confusion and discomfort towards the idea of gender being more complicated than male or female, particularly among older people but it’s the policing of other peoples bodies and lives that I don’t understand.
@Awkward Jake: we’re not talking just about acceptance here. If I meet a gay or trans person, I’ll be as courteous and pleasant to them as I would to anyone else. I’ll judge them based on their behaviour just as I would anybody else. What we’re really talking about is the erosion of distinct gender categories as part of the left’s remaking of societal norms. Legalising SSM means mothers and fathers are only parents, not important categories in their own right. Transgender recognition goes even further by implying there is no real difference between men and women.
@Awkward Jake: It isn’t the same, as homosexual people don’t deny why they are physically but many trans people do, this isn’t saying that psychologically they don’t see or want themselves to be a certain sex. Just that physically it isn’t true, it isn’t denying who they want to be but the fact them denying who they are physically. The problem is trans people trying to tell people the way things should be because they want it to be that way when the reality isn’t the same and then trying to justify it when that could harm others.
@TamuMassif2019: what I meant was that these arguments against it I imagine would have been similar in previous generations to those who opposed homosexuality except thankfully we can use language and have a constructive argument rather than yell “blah blah bible blah blah going to hell you sinners”. Generations have disagreements on subjects that maybe in the future become less divisive this seems to maybe be one of them
@Awkward Jake: As a homosexual male I don’t fully agree with the comparison with the trans issue. I am concerned that if there is no requirement for gender-reassignment surgery before legal recognition, that you will end up with conflicts at changing rooms, swimming pools etc as is happening in the UK when physical males (who claim to be women) turn up at womens’ changing facilities, swimming pools etc.
@Pragmatist2018: you can’t and shouldn’t mandate surgery (which results in sterilisation this making sterilisation compulsory for legal gender recognition). Not every trans person wants surgery or can access it (expensive, underlying health conditions, not having an issue with that part of your body). Trans is an umbrella and people have different levels of dysphoria or do not experience dysphoria.
As it stands trans people just want to be able to access facilities and services that are safe and where they can go about their business in peace. Above you are falling into the trap of painting trans women as dangerous (and ignoring transmasculine people completely). It’s like the trans bathroom panic in the UK where trans people and cis people who didn’t conform to peoples idea of femininity where being accosted in bathrooms.
You seem not to realise that we already have legal gender recognition in Ireland that doesn’t mandate surgery and that what you are afraid of hasn’t happened. Generally most trans people find accessing facilities like that intimidating and unfortunately many avoid them entirely.
Additionally many trans people would not be safe in facilities according to their gender assigned at birth. Can you imagine a trans woman with breasts and feminine clothing feeling safe and at ease in a male changing room? Or the reception of a hairy trans guy in a female changing room?
I always find this kind of argument perplexing as when single cubicle stalls or a all-gender bathroom is proposed so that people have access to facilities people are also up in arms about that. Trans people just want safe facilities, they want to pee in peace, it’s not an underhanded exercise and it’s horrible to be painted as such.
It must be wonderful to live a perfect life. After spending 9 months in a catholic orphanage in 1979 I was labeled a ^bas€stard^ that the Catholic Church didn’t want to christen me. Are we still labeling our country fellow? I thought we changed this or am I still a bastaard or is someone else just a name and label
@Jen Gordon: you are not a bastaard. The Catholic church ruined so many innocent lives. I hope your adult life has left them far behind
One thing that should NEVER be allowed is that kids as young as 12 being given puberty blockers to try and hold off puberty. To me this is child abuse. Let kids be kids, if a 12 year old boy wants to be a girl, or visa versa, so be it, help them deal with it at that time. Don’t give them harmful drugs that will determine who they are for the rest of their lives. By the time they reach 14 or 15, they might have changed their mind.
@Dara Mac Fhionnain: I watched the Prime Time special last night and heard for the first time about puberty blockers. What kind of insanity is it to give such a medication to a child that will interfere with natural developement including the onset of hormones associated with puberty? As if growing up is not confusing enough. An individual going through puberty making a decision about their gender is akin to a drunk driving a car in terms of the intoxicating influence of the hormone changes of puberty.
@Shea Fitzgerald: I first heard about puberty blockers about six years ago in a news article regarding the onset of puberty at a young age. I see no difference with using puberty blockers on a six year old who’s simply too young or on an eleven year old who thinks they’re trans. If the eleven year old realises in a few years that they’re not trans then great, they stop taking blockers and hormones return to normal, albeit a couple of years late. However if the eleven year old doesn’t change their mind and actually is trans then by not going through the wrong puberty a lot of future problems would have been avoided.
If a male identifies and accepts and recognises one’s self as a woman, then, we should respect that. Full Stop. But when one can not afford surgery, where does that leave them? Should the HSE provide?
@Jaci Black Remember Martin Ponting, 50, a father-of-three, became Jessica Winfield behind bars???
@Kamshafft: that’s the worrying thing about it .on the programme tonight a doctor said that there’s a possibility that with this cert that young people can just go abroad and get surgery without even talking to a professional first .
@Darcy: firstly to get surgery abroad you would need consent of a guardian. Surgeons will also perform all necessary checks to make sure that you understand and are ready for surgery. There is also a need for medical background and a physician at home to help with aftercare. As it is surgeons specialising in trans surgeries are in the dozens across the world and the vast majority require the same evidence as here. Some operate on the principal of informed consent where factors like age etc are taken into account and they are also quite expensive (US surgeon will set you back at least 10k not including flights, accommodation and time off work. You also need someone to help you as you are quite vulnerable after surgery.).
You can travel for surgery, I myself will do it this year. Waiting lists in Ireland are horrendous and I have no desire to go through the hoops in place in Ireland which are demeaning and out of date. I have lived in countries with much better and accessible approaches. I do wish I had better access than I do but am happy to be able to afford to travel. Saying that I am 31 and wish I did not have to wait so long to access something that will be positively life changing.
But the process is not simple and I know no surgeon who would operate on someone under 18 (that just doesn’t happen). And even at 18 without further medical and psychological assessment information.
Many people are travelling abroad because the Irish system is so messed up with half decade waiting lists
@Jensen Bhroin: I wish this country took better care of you so you didn’t have to go through the expense of travelling for this :c
Best of luck with the surgery!
Since when my gender is your business mister? Stick your nose in your own business, and leave other people alone. How do you know your own kids aren’t trans? Maybe they are afraid to tell you, because you’re going to do what – kick them out of your house? You’re not a human at all – you’re an animal. Jesus would never approve your behavior. Jesus always says love others like you love yourself. You must hate yourself then.
sex != gender
sex = biological
gender = mental(not the mental as in crazy)
have your say