We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
BISHOP BRENDAN LEAHY has told the Citizens’ Assembly that they in the church “hang our heads in shame” over the Tuam babies revelations.
Leahy was responding to a question from one of the assembly’s 99 members who identified herself as Cathy from Tuam.
She asked, given the context of the mass infant grave, whether the church had the “track record” to offer its opinion on the care of children.
The woman took particular issue with the assertion from pro-life groups that “every life matters”.
“How do the church expect us to go along with this given the horrific track record the church and religious orders have when dealing with the most vulnerable and, as you call them yourself, the voiceless weak in our society historically,” Cathy said.
And specifically, in the light of the recent discovery of 780 babies and infants bodies thrown into septic tanks in Tuam, and coincidentally I’m from Tuam myself.
Chair of the assembly Justice Mary Laffoy questioned the relevance of the question but the woman added:
“It’s the stance that everyone has a right to life regardless of the situation, how do they correlate the two when the historic track record stands as it is for itself?”
Rónán Duffy / TwitterThe Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference is addressing the #CitizensAssembly. They have not sent a bishop. pic.twitter.com/y3qul79W8B
— Rónán Duffy (@ronanduffy_) March 5, 2017
Katie Liffey, who presented on behalf of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference, first answered the woman. She said she considered pulling out of her speaking slot on foot of the revelations.
“It is something that as, I suppose, an ordinary Catholic that I spent the weekend deeply upset by myself and I spent a lot of time reflecting did I want to be here?,” she said.
“Did I want to speak to this question given what has been uncovered in Tuam? So I deeply respect where you’re coming from.”
Bishop Brendan Leahy, who had joined Liffey on the stage for the Q&A portion of the session, then responded. He described the Tuam babies revelation as a “wake-up call”.
“Obviously I want to echo that sentiment, we’re all as shocked as everyone else about all of this. But I think it just brings home to us the key point is that is that society has to, both the born and the unborn, welcome them, care for them protect them and that’s true always,” he said.
“And we stand with a renewed kind of wake up call to us all, this is essential, and we want this to be essential in our mission as a church as well but also the common good.”
So certainly we hang our heads in shame but it brings us back to the fact that this is what we want. To promote a culture that really does care for life both before and after birth.
Rónán Duffy / TwitterAsked a question from a female assembly member from Tuam, Bishop Brendan Leahy says he 'hangs his head in shame' over #tuambabies pic.twitter.com/PVhjtZSiHJ
— Rónán Duffy (@ronanduffy_) March 5, 2017
The comments come after the confirmation that “a significant number” of children’s remains have been discovered in sewage containers at the site of the old mother and baby home in Tuam.
Speaking this morning on RTÉ radio, government minister Simon Coveney said that it’s “hard to see how that there wouldn’t be garda involvement” in the case.
Abortion
The Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference was speaking as part of the Citizens’ Assembly’s deliberations on the Eighth Amendment and was arguing that the law be kept as it stands.
Liffey had said that it is their belief that people are “the responsible stewards of creation” and that “we are all unique from the moment of our conception”.
The Church of Ireland made a short presentation in which Rev. Michael Burrows said that, while it has been the church’s position that terminations should only take place of in cases of “strict and undeniable medical necessity”, it has questioned whether such nuance should be dealt with in the constitution.
Atheist Ireland argued in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment.
Earlier this afternoon, the Citizens’ Assembly heard from the Pro-Life Campaign and the Iona Institute who favour the status quo. Amnesty International and the Coalition to Repeal the Eighth Amendment argued for a referendum and repeal.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
I’d much rather see heads rolling. The time for apologies is well gone
Very true.
Time for action. The state records are there.
What’s the point in hanging heads in shame. If the Catholic Church are genuine in making amends they should compensate them. Out of their own piggy bank. It was a fair question from the woman from Tuam. I believe Justice Laffoy hails from Tuam too.
Hang their heads in shame.. now that’s going to be hard because they have no shame…..
Very true…the only reality that the repressive organisation that is the Catholic Church understands and responds to is both money and authority. Remove both and watch the entire rotten structure collapse.
Exactly Anne, we’ve heard it all before. Apologies are worthless at this stage. Worthless at any stage to be perfectly honest. To add insult to injury, who has been invited over for a cup of tea next year; his holiness. And do people think he’ll take action…
All priests/nuns should be Garda vetted .
How do you compensate dead babies ?
@Funfair: their memory and existence can best be honoured by relegating the Roman Catholic Church out of all public affairs and introducing a secular Republic founded on a secular Constitution.
@Funfair: I know and those babies would have grown to adulthood and had children of their own so you could potentially multiply those evil murders .
Emmet how right you are the present group of Bishops should resign on mass at be replaced by young priest who know what has to be done to save the church in IREKAND
Who’s head? The dead sexually repressed nuns who sanctioned this? Or maybe Eamonn de velera who dreamt up an Ireland governed by the church.
I watched all of the debates today, the Pro Life Campaign were atrocious, all they did was put up slideshows of people with children that looked like they came from Shutterstock or some other imaging service. I doubt any of the anecdotal ‘stories’ they told were even true. Iona and YD also flip-flopped when they were asked questions and actually didn’t respond to the exact question even once, one member of the Citizens Assembly had to repeat his question a second time because Queen Flip-Flopper Maria Steen completely ignored his question and started rabbiting on about complete pseudo-philosophical nonsense.
On the other hand you had the Pro Choice groups, all of which brought hard, verifiable facts to the table that were informative and convincing.
That American one from Youth Defence was hilarious, it was like watching a comedy sketch.
There is no doubt that a referendum of some sort will be recommended. And rightly so
@lavbeer: Youth Defence will be ordering a massive batch of hurling sticks.
I don’t care about YD. They are irrelevant to me. You on the other hand are a tad obsessive about them.
@lavbeer: you may not have noticed that Youth Defence were invited to the Citizens’s Assemby and given lots of platform.
Youth Defence is part representative of the attitude of those who want to retain the 8th Amendment.
Yes they were. Would you prefer just having groups you agree with? If the CA is make a decision they can standby them they need to hear all sides. No?
@lavbeer: I have no problem at all with Youth Defence having been invited to appear and for it to have been given a platform. Although it is strident and extremist in tone, it’s “reasoning” and arguments are representative of the pro life side of the issue.
It was good that Youth Defence was invited and the 99 Citizens could observe these people and their position at close hand.
@Ann Marie Devlin. Who’s heads should roll? Everyone that was involved in that is years dead. We can hardly start to execute the present people.
So why were you asking if I noticed that they were there? You are confusing me on that one. From the bits I heard they were represented by someone who could have been terminated and told a story about someone regretting they had an abortion. These people surely exist. Now the choice of language is questionable but those of us with a functioning brain see through both sides on that score. I didn’t take much more notice of them. Is my assessment correct?
@lavbeer: I questioned what you had observed because you failed to see the religious dimension and failed to identify the presence of representatives of the Roman Catholic Church.
As for a person regretting a decision or choice, that is life and irrelevant to Constitutional policy.
As for the hypothetical of somone who might have been aborted and was not, that is a logical fallacy.
YD are extreme in their position.which is not shared by 99.9999999% of prop life citizens.
YD are a counter balance to the pro abortion extremists who have been given freedom of the Assembly.
@Emmet O’Keeffe: Youth Defence share the objectives and “reasoning” of the pro-life side.
So my assessment was correct?
@lavbeer: you have had a failure of compression. You are incorrect.
@ Emmet o’keeffe..by that you mean by the Catholic Church I hope “Cal” one would think the Bishop was “Totally unaware” of this until this weekend..absolutely disgusting behaviour by the “Rcc”..
So they didn’t have a speaker who was as result of a rape and didn’t have a story about a girl regretting an abortion? No?
That’s all I asked. I didn’t offer an opinion on it.
@lavbeer: I acknowledged their presence but not their value.
I pointed to the presence of representatives of the Roman Catholic Church on a matter of Roman Catholic dogma, the 8th Amendment.
Really? Of the 17 groups permitted to speak, 9 were pro life groups and 8 were pro choice. Both the Abortion Rights Campaign and TFMR were excluded. Why was that? Why were more pro life groups given speaking time than pro choice?
@Shanti: that is an interesting and highly relevant question.
Its time now for government to make the church give ownership of every Irish school back to the people. We need to take our children back from this appalling evil cult.
Scoundrels verifying deviants sounds Irish enough alright.
@OpenBorders: Cora Sherlock trusts the findings of a ‘Congressional’ “investigation” above the actual Judge’s ruling.A ruling which found Planned Parenthood -> NOT GUILTY! YIKES!
PS. I also gave Colm O’Gorman a huge round of applause for his wonderful speech :) (Poor Cora was FUMING as people stood up and applauded Colm :)
When hundreds of bodies are found in Unmarked graves in the likes of Bosnia, the U.N. are called in. What happens here when 800 bodies are found in an unmarked grave. ????
@Funfair: like the dead, aborted babies piling up in abortion mills, their parts sold for profit NOW, TOAY ? You can’t.
But you can work to stop it, as many Catholics, and other good people try to do. Others don’t…
….like the hypocrisy of pro abortion TDs, Halligan, Brid Smith, Coppinger, – jumping on the sad Tuam , church-bashing bandwagon… …while campaigning for abortion on demand of babies NOW, TODAY…
double standard there, I’m afraid…
@OpenBorders: Rubbish. Nice to see your picture of George Soros, the pro abortion Open Borders billionaire NOW funding the pro abortion lobby (AMNESTY, IFPA etc).
Abortion kills babies. Ever notice how pro aborts like you NEVER want pictures of aborted babies shown to the public, like you don’t. Censorship of abortion reality.
Our pro abortion media facilitate “pro choice” censorship because our D4/D6 secularist, journalists and editors favour abortion themselves.
Maria Steen was superb. Y Defences contribution, this brave much-vilified (by pro aborts like you) was realistic and factual on abortion.
Pro abortion bias in the Cit Ass is obvious now, and NO hard questions about preserving unborn babies lives, from the floor or Chair, to pro abortion propagandists like Colm O’Gorman (Amnesty) or BPAS speakers.
No hard questions about the right to life of unborn babies, at all. Shameful bias.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Wonderful Colm ? O’Gorman and Amnesty favours abortion of babies to death.
Colm was very quiet about which pro abortion billionaires fund him, and his pro abortion Amnesty lobby.
Your, and O’Gormans, big abortion pals, Planned Parenthood, dismembers, trafficks and sells the body parts of the babies it kills, for profit (“kidneys are expensive”– PP).
The anti 8th pro abortion outfit, the IFPA, is their Irish PP affiliated mouth-piece, also foreign funded.
Wise up folks, you are being conned by the pro abortion lobby and their foreign backers, into destroying babies protection of the 8th.
So much for Amnesty O’Gormans “wonderful speech” about human rights.
He forgot to mention that abortion kills babies, every single time. Kinda important, don’t u think ?
Also, he forgot the dead aborted babies dumped in medical trash cans, or left to die, or incinerated to heat abortion hospitals, or parts dismembered for sale. — or the fact that 99% of the now 200,000 aborted UK babies are done for “social ” reasons, not some big, life threatening emergency, as portrayed by the pro abortion lobby.
Or the lunch time abortions or abortions done because the baby was female (or male),or because the coming baby inconvenienced, career, holiday plans or even, “my bikini line”, or cleft palate, or club foot.
O’Gorman is a hypocrite, speechifying grandly about “human rights”, while advocating allowing abortion of babies to death as a “choice” and “a human right”.
Dump pro abortion O’Gorman and Amnesty now.
Support, work for and fund prolife groups now, vote pro abortion politicians out, spot the media and political pro aborts as they use their position to propagandise for abortion of babies to death.
Could you point us to which grounds under the UK legislation “social reasons” fall under? As I’m reading them from the UK.gov website and I don’t see that listed as grounds for a termination.. What I *do* see are the following: “The section 1(1) grounds for an abortion are: (a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or (b)* that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or (c)* that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or (d)* that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.” I don’t see social reasons listed there.. I am interested to hear how you arrive at your conclusion, given that most abortions are granted under ground A. If the pregnancy is worse for her health than continuing it. Are you saying that womens health is of no consequence?
Why is a bishop even at the assembly? Their doctrine is irrelevant.
@John Somers: to lecture to and to direct the Roman Catholics in Ireland on a Roman Catholic dogma, 8th Amendment, enshrined in our Constitution.
@John Somers: but I agree that Roman Catholic dogma and doctrine should be entirely irrelevant.
The assembly was discussing the 8th not the catholic doctrine. Strange question.
@lavbeer: the Eight Amendment is Roman Catholic doctrine introduced by the Roman Catholic Church and the 7 Roman Catholic pressure groups back in 1982 and 1983.
On each and every occasion of discussion of the Eight Amendment and its consequences, including the debates leading to the Protection iof Life During Pregnancy Bill, senior representatives of the Roman Catholic Hierarchy were called and attended to infirm the more than 85% of Roman Catholic elected representatives of the position, teaching and direction of the teachings of the Roman Catholic religion.
Detaching Roman Catholic religion from the dogma of the 8th Amendment is intellectually and historically dishonest.
@John Somers: Ever hear of “freedom of speech” ? Or maybe, in your universe, only pro abortion fascists are allowed that ?
Send for the Guards!! 50+ years too late we still cannot look after the most vulnearable look at Grace! this state and its employees are not fit to look after anything – except themselves.
@Austin Rock: so true and so sad.
And we can’t blame the church in the grace case.
Hands is heads in shame, but refuse to it the compensation they owe the state, refuse to assist in the transfer of files to reunite parents and children. Continue to prioritise the needs of their church over the good of the people in direct contradiction to the teachings they believe in
Talk is cheap I am not sure he or any member of the church have shame anymore
A “wake-up call” really? How many “wake up calls” do you need Bishop???
tiny little angels bodies flung by perverts into a sewage tank. they were fuming the kids were dead because they couldn’t be shipped off to America and sold to the highest bidder but he holds his head in shame so that’s ok then
Or they could no longer make money off performing drug trials on them!
@Brendan McGill: that is appalling. I’m lost for words. I’m depressed by that.
Ah lads there a great cult all the same
I keep hearing from ” Pro-Lifers that the 8th Amendment and abortion have nothing to do at all within Roman Catholicism.
The stigma of illegitimacy, the criminal prohibition of cintraception and the absolute prohibition of abortion, were all created by the Roman Catholic Church and all combined to create the cruel and miserable baby farms all over the country.
Very hard to read.
Oops, you caught us again!
Sorry about that.
Make sure that donate enough money at next Sunday’s collection.
I would be very surprised if Tuam is the only grave
@Johannes Baader: apparently, many people are phoning in with details of other possible burial grounds. In another 10 years it would have been too late. The Roman Catholic Church almost got away with it.
The church and all those involved with it are a joke . They go around thinking they are any every one else but those days are gone. No one cares about the church in this country any more and those who do will soon be gone as its really only the older generation who care what the church says or does. Why can’t the Vatican step in here and do the decent thing and insist that the authorities bring charges against the order involved in this horrendous act they carried out. Not that the Vatican should in the first place!
Heard it all before… Child abuse rampant among priests for forever… We hang or heads in shame while the Pope quietly grants clemency… Mother baby homes here and around the world.. it was all about the church and their authority in most places making money.. they have no shame…
The Catholic Church is a cult
Would any responsible parent entrust a child to the unsupervised care of the Roman Catholic Church?
How the hell is this a wake up call when we have been here before ? How many wake up calls do we need before we see accountability to these crimes and others. A high profile minister has blood on his hands but hides behind his position.
Making apologies… the second best option after sweep it under the carpet
Marion Finucane was on RTE this morning defending the Roman Catholic Church and saying that we were all to blame.
@Tony Daly: The people were not complicit. They were too afraid to speak up. We only have to look at what Mauruce McCabe and his family were put through for telling the truth. Can you imagine what would have been done to anyone who put their head above the parapet, especially when the church and state had a lot more control than they do now.
@Tony Daly: We are not to blame. People didn’t speak out because they were afraid. We only have to look at what happened to Maurice McCabe to see that if you questioned what was going on you had the full force of government and their agencies on your head. I can only imagine what it was like years ago.
@Vera Kilshaw: Vera, excellent reply and I agree with you.
Unfortunately, thisbis not an excuse. If no one did anything, no matter the excuse, then they are complicit. Ergo, the people are complicit too. The only salient point in regards to responsibility , is that Irish society has grown and matured and are no longer hanging onto the frock-tails of the church. Whereas the church has not really changed at all, but they have gotten better at hiding it…
@Vera Kilshaw: thousands of babies are aborted, poisoned , suctioned , cut, and trafficked in abortion mills right now.
Their bodies pile up now.
Haven’t heard you or others “speaking up” on that atrocity, or opposing it..
Many Catholics, and the Catholic Church, with others, does oppose it, bravely. You don’t, so shove your “moral outrage ” on Tuam 50 years ago, while the abortion slaughter toll mounts.
Terry Prone is going to be extremely busy. She will earn a Sean Fortune out of this.
their heads should be still hanging after all the other crimes they committed.
Th Bishops “apology” is an admission of the connection of the Tuam babies atrocity and the topic of abortion.
If the Pope now decides to come to Ireland he should get a hot welcome.
Empty words that have as much meaning as their false beliefs Weirdos
And still the scandals continue whilst the people listen respectfully and politely to the representatives of the Roman Catholic religion on the Cinstitutional topic of the 8th Amendment.
The causes of the Tuam babies atrocities and the atrocities in the various other baby farms around Ireland were the stigma of illegitimacy, caused by the Roman Catholic Church, the unavailability of condoms, due to the Roman Catholic Church and the unavaialablity of early stage abortions, again due to the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church and Youth Defence are allies in arms seeking a common objective.
How much of positive value will the Citizens Assembly get from the representatives of a child abusing religion?
How do they get away with it? Hanging their heads in shame and all that? Something gruesome happened to those kids before they ended up in a septic tank.
The Roman Catholic Church is the religious expert on the Roman Catholic religious 8th Amendment.
Bishop Leahy how long do you intend to hang your head in shame? And if you did it for a decade would it make any difference to the victims? Where were your apologies at the time when they could have done some good. Where were your apologies in 1975 when the remains were first found. Where were they in 2014 when Mrs Coreless was being vilified for daring to mention this outrage. Only now, when the truth can no longer be denied, 70yrs too late to make any difference do you behave in a “Christian” manner. What is it with the Catholic Church and children?
Respect to Cathy from Tuam. It was a brave question.
It is not surprising that a devout Roman Catholic Judge questioned the relevance of the question but the question is highly relevant.
It is interesting that some politicians use the phrase “telling a Terry Prone” as a euphemism for a concealing and evasive answer.
The Roman Catholic Church is an expert on clerical child sex abuse, physical maltreatment if chikdren, hate against people who happen to be homosexual, prejudice against and contempt for women, an opponent of contraception, an opponent on use of condoms to prevent the spread of aids, duscrimimatioj in education against non Roman Catholics and a long list of sins.
This is the Institution and its representatives that we consult about the Eight A,endment even though Roman Catholics keep denying that the Roman Catholic religion is relevant to the Eight AMendment. .
It’s a civil amendment to the Irish constitution. The wish of the Irish people. Nothing to do with religion then or now. RCC will be among many institutions with an opinion.
@lavbeer: you can keep up that disingenuous line but history and reality contradict you.
The 8th Amendment is Roman Catholic dogma embedded in out Constitution courtesy of the Roman Catholic Church.
What was the Bishop doing at the Citizens’s Aasembly tooday and in response to an invitation?
You could use that comment about every organisation that was invited. That’s not what I am saying anyway.
@lavbeer: the Roman Catholic Church is a religious noisy and was responsible for the introduction of the Eight Amendment due to religious motives. That was why the Roman Catholic Bishop was introduced to give a Roman Catholic guidance on the Ro,man Catholic Eight Amendment.
Certainly only a highly intellectually dishonest person would deny the relevance and role of Roman Catholicism to the Eight Amendment.
Have to agree to disagree on that one
@lavbeer: of course you have to because you can’t afford to open the door to the role of Roman Catholicism in relation to the Eight Amendment.
Agree to disagree Tony. If the referendum is lost – you will blame RCC. I don’t mind either way once it is debated correctly. To that point the CA is a great idea. You get various crackpots. Now if I had the time to watch it all. Either way a referendum is on the way
@lavbeer: the reactionary fundamentalists in favour of the 8th Amendment have a huge advantage because the liberalising side will be split between repeal and amend.
Of course, repeal would not mean abortion or even abortion on demand. Legislation would remain in place but the dishonest of the pr-life sued will obscure that.
The religious fundamentalists will win out unless the Tuam babies atrocities brings clarity to the toxic influence of religion.
The reactionary fundamentalists have a vote as well. Guess what they are a minority as well.
@lavbeer: yes, the reactionary fundamentalists have a vote and also have the power and influence of the Roman Catholic Church.
If the Roman Catholic reactionary fundamentalists are in a minority they are in a very large minority.
Look at the massive amount of Roman Catholic religious Submissions to the Cituzens’Assembly.
Would the Bishop care to apologise to the skeletons?
The families of these women…and in particular the men who played a part in the pregnancy are also to be held to account – they cannot continue to offload the blame to the prevailing culture of the time…each of us has a conscience regardless of the rules that attempt to govern our actions.
@Garreth Fitzpatrick: the conscience was the cruel and judgmental conscience informed by the values of the Roman Catholic Church.
But sure we don’t hold people to account even today.
@lavbeer: it seems that the Roman Catholic Church in particular always gets a special dispensation from accountability.
They’re far from unique on that score Tony. But yes I agree with your sentiment
The Repeal of the Eight Amendment would be a small tribute to the short, cruel and desperately miserable lives of the Tuam babies.
this has to be the last straw for any right thinking Catholic to finally have nothing to do with this evil criminal organisation
@the truth: I would have thought so but the tentacles or the testicles of the Roman Catholic Church run deep and wide.
@tony it amazes and saddens me to see adults bringing children into churches after all we know i think their crazy or maybe just a bit stupid.
@the truth: there is a sick irony in bringing young children into a Roman Catholic Church.
That’s the Roman Catholic (Tuam babies) Church for you and worse is to come.
So when wil, An Garda Siochana start a criminal oinvesrtigation?
I phoned the local Garda Station and was to,d that it was a merely civil matter and that I should contact a TD.
Who is still alive thought? Can’t be many. Very difficult to build a case
@lavbeer: a few nuns in their early 80s are left.
The skeletons will provide invaluable and informative forensic evidence.
First establish the causes of death.
We will never find the bodies disposed of in other coffins, that is buried with strangers fir convenient disposal.
Probably right. And the forensics I guess will show lack of nourishment. Probably will need a comparison of the time as well – not sure how you go about that. Chances of a successful prosecution are practically zero.
@lavbeer: an expert explained that lack of nutrition, broken bones during life, and a variety of other illnesses and injuries can be detected.
It was the unsaleable children who were permitted to die of neglect although a medical doctor advocated at the time that strangulation of the children would be more humane. The medical doctor actually wrote a letter advocating this. DrcElaine Byrne quieted this in today’s Sunday Business Post.
Such a blight on the country.
Justice Laffoy should have overruled her but a welcome apology all the same.
Not good enough.
Of course. But he was put on the spot and responded with empathy and compassion.
Or in atheist parlance ‘weasel words’
@Emmet O’Keeffe:
They are just words with no actual meaning behind them.
Until the catholic church and the Vatican actually co-operate with worldwide investigations by Ireland, the UN, Australia they are all saying words with no meaningful actions behind them.
To date the Vatican has refused to release records in relation to the above investigations.
@Emmet O’Keeffe: “put on the spot”, he should have been prepared, after this has been news for several day, no excuses
@Emmet O’Keeffe: the question was highly relevant. It’s different sides of the same coin.
Respect to the woman from Tuam.
@Emmet O’Keeffe: Justice Laffoy should not have challenged the question but clearly her Roman Catholicism was a factor in challenging the question from Cathy from Tuam. .
I think she was right to challenge the relevance. Nothing wrong with the question itself though
@lavbeer: she was wrong to challenge it. Instead, she should have asked Cathy from Tuam to describe the basis of relevance. Although the basis of relevance is obvious, it would have enabled out citizen representative to explain the position.
Fair point that would have been an interesting question/answer. I won’t speculate on it. So will have to agree to disagree again
@lavbeer: our Juduciary are largely Roman Catholic and substantially motivated to respect and to support the Roman Catholic Church.
@Tony Daly:
Time for Catholic purge Tony. Root them out wherever they lie.
Put on the spot, Emmet? I think not. He had days to come up with his saccharine and side stepping answer. Love them both, my posterior. Love the institution first, foremost and always.
@Jeanette McDonald: indeeed you are right.
80% of the country is RC … all walks of life has it. Including you.
@lavbeer: I disrespect the Roman Catholic Church because of its malign and malignant influence on Ireland and on society.
Now that the tip of the iceberg if the predations of the Roman Catholic Church is being exposed, that influence should start to wane.
What Atonement does the Roman Catholic Church propose?
The Roman Catholic religion is at the root of the Tuam babie atricuty.
The Roman Catholic religion is at the root of the Eight Amendment.
Oh F*** yeah that’s gonna make everything right a F****** apology ,
NOT GOOD ENOUGH
The church record is of no relevance in determining abortion is wrong.
If Charles Manson says murder is wrong, is he wrong just because he’s Charles Manson?
This woman is making no sense.
But if charles manson was released he would murder again.
@Tom Burke: I would never consult a child molester, pedophile and child murderer about standards of child care.
@Tony Daly: the church has a vested interest in women producing more children.
Tom, as a practising Catholic myself, i think her question was fair. How can the Church be believed that they are genuine towards our young women of today when they are not compensating the “fallen” women and their children who were treated so badly in their “care”. The Church has to make amends. Financially. Immediately. Its as simple as that.
@Dell: Dell it truly has and that thought is chilling and hair raising.
@Tom Burke: “The church record is of no relevance in determining abortion is wrong.”
Of course it does. The church for the protection of paedophiles has no credibility, just as you have no credibility Tom.
@Sinead but who do they give the financial support to? To state the obvious those who deserve it are all dead. Those who did it are probably all dead, certainly those who sanctioned it are. It has been one very successful cover up in that regard.
And not only that families may not even know of the existence of these kids. Society at the time wouldn’t have discussed such matters.
Someone who does deserve compensation for time and expenses is Katherine Coreless. She spent at least £3,200 on a minium of 800 death certificates alone (£4.00 each).
@Paul Ahern: excellent point Paul and not to mention thousands of hours of painstaking research whilst opposed to a lied to by the Roman Catholic Church and refused access by Galway County Council because she did not have a third level degree. So, excellent suggestion.
Sinead
The church and the state.
The state were in no way capable of educating the population, running homes or hospitals.
It fell to the church and between them both they failed people.
Let’s not forget the state sponsored treatment of woman.
Until quite recent times a woman working in the public sector had to leave her job upon marrying.
@Tom Burke: under the influence of the Roman Catholic Church which wished to ensure the dependency of women
Paul. It’s a difficult one I agree. But there were kids who grew up there who are still alive today who were denied their mother or information on her. Some were interviewed on the News. Name and shame the Nuns. I don’t have the answers but the Catholic Church needs to pay for this. I am sick and tired of apologies.
@Sinead true one should not forget in this attrocity that there were mistreated survivors. The plight of those in the cess pit burial is so overwhelmingly abhorrent.
@Paul Ahern: good point.
Technically correct. However, as has been pointed out, if the church is morally bankrupt, then what weight can their argument add? Very little. Put another way, if he church is not holding itself accountable, why should they have any say in this debate?
A poet once wrote about the clergy,: ‘ For two thousand years we paid them to say mass to bring peace and good will to all on Earth but all we got
was poison Gas ‘, Bishop at citizens assembly says: ‘ This is a wake up call’ ( Babies in cess pit ) Catholic Church has never woken up to its cruel oppressive Dogma.!!!
Don’t hang your head in shame go the whole way and hang
Mothers and fathers sent their daughters to these homes and many were secretly relieved and happy when their grandchildren died, this is Ireland, what else, shame of gay children, trans kids, shame of bankruptcy, shame of suicide, shame of mental illness, it goes on and on
He should be hung from the nearest tree, patronising ar$eh0le
You won’t see them calling for prosecution for the bidges sorry the nuns who did this. Evil.
Anger at the church is well justified, and must be criminally prosecuted, but our past and Present craw thumping sanctimonious politicians and governments have FAR MORE to answer for !
Just because the Catholic Church oppose abortion doesn’t mean abortion must be right.
hang their heads in shame because their cover up failed! they would be as self-righteous and sanctimonious as ever if their efforts to hide this scandal had been successful.
Church should pay for EVERYTHING related to this atrocity and be made to take every baby from the tanks they were dumped in themselves, in all 14 sites. They were trafficking illegitimate babies and killing the ones they could not sell. Moral high ground no more.
This poem (below) was birthed through me when the Tuam babies case first came into my consciousness – I felt ( and still feel) very strong emotions about this and all the other atrocities carried out in the name of the Catholic Church.
Better to be angry than apathetic. Better to be passionate about truth than pretending it never happened. It did happen. May we learn that all belief systems are not LOVE. They’re just belief systems. Love is beyond religion. It’s not in your head.
THE 800
Slow-punctured by their starched abusing beliefs,
they delivered scud missiles of judgement and shame
straight to the heart of the innocent children,
grateful to find some sinners to blame
No-one heard the chainsaws dry-screeching,
the root-tearing screams of 800 in flight
their spirits were banished to wither and suffer
their sad, stunted beauty never seeing the light.
Our fingers accuse the Gods of collusion
stabbing our pain at the darkening sky,
“you brainwashed us senseless in white-collared churches”
How could we simply have lived while they died ?
The secret stayed simmering in compacted cloisters
housed in dark habits as the silent years came
Reclusive and rampant and self-flagellating
Guilt and pain were the black and white game.
Take my body – and they did that easy
taste my blood – and they drank it with glee
the religious orgy of “Repent and Be Saved”
on your knees, be humble, pretend, Let us Pray.
A hungry heresy began to take form
a chaotic manifestation of dormant remains
spewing and scorching the sacrificed altar
with the anger and fear of it happening again.
As the light shines on the heinous hierarchy
It’s birthing the truth of the grief and the pain
shattering the defences of the Christian illusion
tottering on years of fear-filled crusades.
May your love of the truth banish the secrets
May your beautiful body never know shame
May you know that the darkness is only an absence
May you hear the Divine whisper your name.
© Eoin Scolard
So this will eventually be about the manner these children were buried?’ The word Tuam comes from Tuaim da Ghualann which means Burial mound of the two shoulders. Tuam has been an ancient burial ground since Bronze Age times forte Connachta Tribe. Typical settlers mess in around in indigenous burial grounds and complaining about the bodies in the burial mound . Bad luck befalls those who mess with ancient burial grounds particularly those of Daghda or Crom. You don’t like Christianity and you blame your new gods ,but wasn’t it ye yerselves that turned you backs on the old gods the gods of your ancestors ( if in fact any of you are true gaels) and brought this on yerselves. Now ye anger the old gods digging around in native burial grounds ?
Wake up call? How many do the church and religious orders need? I have a suggestion for the church and religious orders… Just fu*k off!!!!!
Jesus.
Is Tony Daly obsessed or what? His contributions on the matter must be running into the thousands at this stage.
Maybe but it is hard to fault his intent. This is such a terrible thing to have been done to babies and toddlers, all innocent. It very much reminded me of the Nazis, and this is no exaggeration. Apparently, as illegitimate, these children were not baptised. As such they were considered to be sub-humans …unter-mensch in Nazi jargon…And could then be mistreated (for some to death for all to serious neglect) with impunity. I just cannot comprehend how a “Christian” Order can behave like this. Isn’t this how Satanist are supposed to behave not the “good guys.” And it was so widespread, not just a couple of bad apples (apparently there is more and worse to come from other institutions). As such it had to be sanctioned at the very top, the Irish Bishops and Cardinals for sure and probably Rome. Hollywood would find it hard to top this outrage.
@Emmet O’Keeffe: I have exceeded the number of your comments. That is what infuriates you.
You like to avoid the issue itself. Deflect, distract, deceive and dissimulate is your approach.
My name is not Jesus.
@Paul Ahern: thank you for focusing on the topic itself. Your description of the nature of what happened is excellent and insightful.
@Emmet O’Keeffe: and I have a particular interest in this subject for very personal reasons.
@Tony Daly – it is your middle name, though, right? :-)
They should have had their heads ‘hung’ decades ago – ‘The Church’ has an awful lot to answer for
How many bloody “wake up calls” do they need, or for that matter, can you have without losing all credibility?
You know this thing with the babies being dumped by nuns in septic tanks. Everybody is so outraged. My problem with that is actions speak loudest and nobody “cares” until the media shows what is going on. Then the hollow apologies come. The Catholic Church is always sorry when it is caught out. Wish some bishops and priests and nuns would stop manipulating and just tell the truth: “We don’t care”. They hope to go to Heaven where they admit they won’t care about the suffering of children and family in Hell.
The insinuation of some that the nuns and priests involved did not believe in God is ludicrous for only a small percentage of the population supports atheism and people who dedicate their lives to indoctrinating children and praying and celibacy and make prisoners of themselves definitely do believe. The problem is that Catholicism is man-made and thus has no more power than anything else to arrest the human inclination to be evil. It does not really care for it gives quack treatments for sin and remember that the list of sins for Catholics is far bigger than the list most of us live by. For example, deliberate doubt of church teaching is a sin whereas for most ordinary people it is a virtue. If Jesus founded Catholicism on fake hope he must take some of the responsibility if not all of it. Your insinuation that you have to disbelieve in God to be bad is grossly bigoted and what about good little children of seven and eight who think they do not believe?
Always the same after they get caught?
The church and state are both complicit in something scarily close to ethnic cleansing. Disposing of the bodies of what they saw as an embarrassment. Children born out of wedlock etc. Erasing these embarrassments from time and memory. No monuments. No simple grave. They never existed as far as the church are concerned.
Never mind heads rolling, it’s criminal investigation and prosecution that’s needed here. Thinking on it, it’s hard not to feel that even this sorry ending for these lost souls, in some cases at least, was probably better than the perils that lay ahead as they grew up in the care of these animals. A disgrace.
Any one involved in this scandal or covered it up should be brought to court being what to do by celibate men and women is a joke while the CC treat women as second class or have we see n women priests bishops or popes
This is a horrific situation but child abuse and death is still prevalent today. Children die before their teens in the manufacture of phones and fashion, their pain and death are necessary to provide us with a constant supply of mostly luxury goods. Their bodies are dumped on the roadsides in Bangladesh. We know all too well but are unconcerned about that. We don’t really worry about child abuse, except for a short while after a story like this.
Use precise geolocation data. Actively scan device characteristics for identification. Store and/or access information on a device. Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development.
These cookies are necessary for the website to function and cannot be switched off in our systems. They are usually only set in response to actions made by you which amount to a request for services, such as setting your privacy preferences, logging in or filling in forms. You can set your browser to block or alert you about these cookies, but some parts of the site will not then work.
These cookies may be set through our site by our advertising partners. They may be used by those companies to build a profile of your interests and show you relevant adverts on other sites. They do not store directly personal information, but are based on uniquely identifying your browser and internet device. If you do not allow these cookies, you will experience less targeted advertising.
These cookies enable the website to provide enhanced functionality and personalisation. They may be set by us or by third party providers whose services we have added to our pages. If you do not allow these cookies then these services may not function properly.
These cookies allow us to count visits and traffic sources so we can measure and improve the performance of our site. They help us to know which pages are the most and least popular and see how visitors move around the site. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. If you do not allow these cookies we will not be able to monitor our performance.
Cookies, device or similar online identifiers (e.g. login-based identifiers, randomly assigned identifiers, network based identifiers) together with other information (e.g. browser type and information, language, screen size, supported technologies etc.) can be stored or read on your device to recognise it each time it connects to an app or to a website, for one or several of the purposes presented here.
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times an ad is presented to you).
Information about your activity on this service (such as forms you submit, content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (for example, information from your previous activity on this service and other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (that might include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present advertising that appears more relevant based on your possible interests by this and other entities.
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects.
Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests, such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects. This can for example be used to adapt the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g. reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance, whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
have your say