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Members of the Mesh Survivors Ireland group at a protest in 2018. Leah Farrell/RollingNews.ie

Dáil committee hears women with vaginal mesh complications were told pain was 'in their minds'

Thousands of women across the world who had these surgeries have suffered life-changing complications.

LAST UPDATE | 29 Jun 2022

A DÁIL COMMITTEE today heard that some women with severe complications as a result of surgeries using vaginal mesh implants were told their pain was “in their minds”. 

The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health heard from representatives from two groups – Mesh Ireland and Mesh Survivors Ireland – as well as officials from the HSE.

Vaginal mesh devices are used in operations to treat stress urinary incontinence (SUI) and pelvic organ prolapse (POP); two conditions women can suffer from after childbirth or in their later years.

Thousands of women across the world – including women in Ireland – who had these surgeries have suffered life-changing complications, including significant reduced mobility and chronic pain. These complications generally occur when the mesh erodes through the vaginal wall or other surrounding tissue. 

Fianna Fáil TD Cathal Crowe said he had spoken to one woman in his constituency who suffered such complications.

“Her story is one of pain and of horror and not being believed or trusted by our so-called best physicians,” he said.

“Something that really disturbed me was that some of our eminent physicians are saying that this is a problem of the mind,” he said.

“I’ve had one patient tell me that were told they have augmented pain syndrome, ie you’re imagining it. Now I’m a man, I can’t begin to imagine what pain these women have gone through, but I know if had a tooth ache or any type of pain and I was told it was in my mind, that in itself would drive me absolutely mad.”

Terri Martin, a member of Mesh Survivors Ireland, said this situation has happened with many women in her group.

“They’ve been to doctors, GPs, everything over the years, some have been put on nerve stimulant drugs and everything, reflecting that this is a problem with your mind – not a pain problem,” she said.

In November 2018, then Minister for Health Simon Harris confirmed the suspension of  surgeries involving these devices until the HSE implemented recommendations from a report, which included the provision of aftercare for women living with complications from these procedures.

Martin told the committee today that despite a report by the Chief Medical Officer in 2018, implementation plans and advisory committees, “nothing has changed and we still live with the after-effects of mesh injury limiting our life quality”.

The group is calling for a number of supports including medical cards for all patients with mesh complications, patient transfer to facilitate access to the two mesh centres in Cork and Dublin, and the inclusion of patient advocates in decision making for the upcoming Steering Committee on Mesh Injury.

Mary McLaughlin from Mesh Ireland, which represents member in the North and South of Ireland, told the committee that while other countries have introduced reimbursement schemes to fund mesh removal procedures, “a different wind is blowing here in Ireland”.

Patients have to finance their own full removal procedures, she said, as the focus in the Irish healthcare system remains on surgeries that only remove parts of the device. Several women have travelled to the UK or elsewhere and paid significant costs for full removal procedures as they were unable to get approval through the State’s treatment abroad scheme.

“Mesh removal skills are a special skill-set,” she said. “It is a perfect storm scenario, which should be resolved by stepping up access to the treatment abroad scheme, not restricting it.”

McLaughlin said HSE patients are currently faced with a mindset “akin to ‘like it or lump it’, partial removals or nothing”.

“They deserve to be treated with respect,” she said.

She said NHS England’s figures show 100,000 women had mesh implanted between 2008 and 2017, with an estimated complication rate of 15-20%. 

The HSE, however, does not have comparable data, she said so it is unclear exactly how many patients have had these devices implanted, the complication rate or outcomes of any corrective procedures. The committee heard that some patients, when they sought their medical records, discovered that information about the device used in their procedure was missing.

Fine Gael TD Bernard Durkan expressed concern at the “huge lack of data and information and advice in relation to this entire matter”.

“I would be strongly of the opinion that there be an immediate appraisal of the entire  numbers on waiting lists, the entire number of people who have had treatment, the nature of the treatment, and the result,” he said.

Care pathway

HSE assistant national director Robert Kidd later told the committee that 11 recommendations in the CMO’s 2018 report are completed, five are ongoing and three are no longer deemed clinically appropriate to address.

He said the five ongoing recommendations will be implemented if vaginal mesh implants are used again in the figure.

Kidd said the HSE made attempts to identify and assist patients who needed support, through a dedicated web page, media content and the circulation of details through hospital groups. He said communications from approximately 70 women were received and they were all offered appointments. 

The HSE put in place a three tiered response to mesh complications to ensure that women always had a pathway of care, he told the committee. This includes two dedicated centres that provide specialist care and he said the clinicians in in the mesh complication service have specialist and sub-specialist training earned mostly abroad in the US, UK and Australia. 

The centre in Cork has seen 40 patients and there is no waiting list, he said, while the Dubin clinic, which has seen 69 patients, has a waiting list of 16. 

Kidd said access to treatment abroad is part of the care pathway, for patients who “have defined clinical complexities”. 

The committee also heard from Consultant Obstetrician Dr Suzanne O’Sullivan who said that while she understands some patients want their mesh completely removed, as a clinician she does not always think it is the best course of treatment.

She said in some cases this procedure can make things “an awful lot worse” and her clinic has treated two women who returned from the UK after a total removal surgery who have “very significant problems”.

“If I, as a clinician, am fairly confident that a) it may not make their problem any better and b) it has a high chance of making their problems an awful lot worse and leaving her in a much, much more devastating situation, that’s a huge ethical dilemma for us,” she said.

“So I can’t recommend what I think is major and potentially mutilating surgery that I don’t believe is going to be in the interest of the patient, I just can’t do that. And I have to be honest with women, it’s not push-back, we’re here to do our best, we’re here to try and help them we’re here to make them better and we have options to do that.”

One of those options, she said, is total mesh removal but only if doctors believe “it is absolutely the right thing for them”.

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    Mute Luke Sarpish
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:31 PM

    So basically we have to apologise for everything we say.

    271
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    Mute Jbob How
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:35 PM

    Only the stupid shit. I don’t know how that affects you…

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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:42 PM

    I lost a close friend a year ago. I would not be able to joke about it now because the pain is so bad. He was right to apologise. Just because someone is famous it does not mean people don’t have the same pain.

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    Mute Lurfic
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:51 PM

    Deborah you should try joking about it. It’s a very good way of helping yourself get through it.

    92
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    Mute Wolves 1966
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:55 PM

    Jon Snow should have to apologise for being Jon Snow. Channel 4 would be a much better place without the likes of him.

    11
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    Mute Luke Sarpish
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    Jan 16th 2016, 6:19 PM

    I’m sorry for your loss Debbie.Ok.

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    Mute Enda Kenny
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    Jan 17th 2016, 4:33 AM

    @ Deborah Behan

    sorry

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    Mute Keith D'Arcy
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:32 PM

    You can’t even joke about the dead now. The PC brigade have finally put a nail in that coffin.

    156
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    Mute Patrick Hurley
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    Jan 16th 2016, 9:14 PM

    Remember when that French comic made a joke about that dead Arab fella.

    19
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    Mute Louis Jacob
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:28 PM

    FFF… There’s always room for a bit of humour. The joke wasn’t funny but he’s worse to apologise.

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    Mute Enda Kenny
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:10 PM

    Kevin Costner was gonna play Michael Collins (and direct)

    Alan loved working with Costner on robin hood prince of thieves

    i reckon the ‘dances with wolves’ stars involvement is what attracted Rickman to the project

    he was probably ashamed of himself for being involved in what Neil Jordan eventually made

    same as Gabriel Byrne was ashamed of what Jim Sheridan did with Gerry Conlon

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    Mute Len Brennan
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:37 PM

    Did you for get to take your tablets again Enda?

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    Mute T Beckett is back
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:57 PM

    @Ek

    The Costner interest in Collins is true, but it was Jordan that pitched for that film. He got Rickman involved.

    Costner probably would have been more historically accurate though!

    Don’t know what you’re on about with Gabriel Byrne but I’d take Danny Day over him any day of the week ;)

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    Mute Enda Kenny
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    Jan 16th 2016, 9:06 PM

    would an irish actor make a film that glorified

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    Mute Louis Jacob
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    Jan 16th 2016, 9:24 PM

    True Enda Kenny and guess who’s script they were going to use.

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    Mute Louis Jacob
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    Jan 16th 2016, 9:26 PM

    I’ll give you one guess… Otherwise I won’t tell you.

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    Mute Enda Kenny
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    Jan 17th 2016, 4:31 AM

    @ T Beckett is back

    imagine the hatred british people must have had for DDL when he made in the name of the father

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    Mute Cosmo Kramer
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    Jan 17th 2016, 5:08 AM

    DDL played Gerry Conlon.. An innocent man framed by the British for murders he didn’t commit.. Why would British people have hatred for him playing that part??

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    Mute Grumpeee Oldman
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:49 PM

    Kinda funny though… Would Mr Rickman have minded?

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    Mute Walter Black
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:56 PM

    Mountain out of a molehill

    56
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    Mute David McShite
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:05 PM

    One of those moments when something seems funny in your head until it escapes and is savaged by the delicate flowers looking to be injured by any perceived slight.

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    Mute Vinnie_the_yute
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:29 PM

    Injured on behalf of a dead person they have no connection with whatsoever.

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    Mute Rasputin
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:54 PM

    I wonder how they’d handle us Irish where in the face of even overwhelming tragedy the first thing out of our mouths is usually a joke…

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    Mute Harry Whitehead
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    Jan 16th 2016, 7:24 PM

    Unless Richard Wilson himself has complained, I fail to see what gives everyone else the right to take offence on his behalf. Still, you’ve got to hand it to these self-appointed guardians of decency – they never waste an opportunity. As usual, they leapt aboard the outrage bus faster than Usain Bolt at the 100 metre finals.

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    Mute @dela
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:37 PM

    Look once he realised himself it didn’t sound right I’m cool with that. If he apologised cos of some tweets I know we’re near Armageddon. Especially tweets from weirdos who live, sh|t, breathe and fester by that medium.

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    Mute Shane Gubbins
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:44 PM

    You know nothing jon snow.

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    Mute Neil Holland
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:31 PM

    What’s it like to be so predictable?

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    Mute Shane Gubbins
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:37 PM

    You must be fun at parties

    16
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    Mute Tom Burke
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:28 PM

    Some people are just waiting to be offended.

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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:47 PM

    Ordinarily I would agree but the pain of losing someone is so great that this joke in the week they died is simply horrible. Could you joke about your friends death the week they died?

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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Jan 16th 2016, 7:07 PM

    People need to lighten up a bit .

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    Mute ted hagan
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:28 PM

    Yea lighten up a bit people. It was only someone’s death we’re talking about. Anyone got any jokes?

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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:36 PM

    The joke was aimed at Wilson so he wasn’t being disrespectful towards Alan . no harm done .

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    Mute Kieran Roche
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    Jan 16th 2016, 10:00 PM

    I really dont know why I read this tripe

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    Mute Hugh G. Johnson
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:30 PM

    Well as Richard Douchet has already proven, British journalists are masters of putting ones foot in their own mouth.

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    Mute Con O'Donnell
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:28 PM

    I don’t believe it!!

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    Mute Kirsha Sova
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:40 PM

    Not just bad taste ,but also a terrible joke .

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    Mute Grot Master
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    Jan 16th 2016, 4:50 PM

    Generation Wuss, indeed.

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    Mute Evelyn Murphy
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:34 PM

    Absolutely ridiculous. People need to get a grip on themselves. We won’t be able to say anything at all soon for fear of upsetting someone. Alan Rickman would uave probably appreciated the joke for goodness sake.

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    Mute Evelyn Murphy
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:37 PM

    *have*

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    Mute Enda Kenny
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    Jan 17th 2016, 4:39 AM

    @ Evelyn Murphy

    once obama was elected people started sniffing around looking to be offended and when there isn’t anything to be offended by.. t

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    Mute Patrick Fitzgerald
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    Jan 16th 2016, 8:12 PM

    There is a big difference from saying something offensive to saying something in bad taste or some thing stupid or something really awkward. He made a tit of himself and apologised. There is no mention in the article or the tweets about masses of people taking offense. If you just read the comms here youd swear the whole world was up in arms about. Calm down lads. He was right to apologise out of respect alone. Red thumb away

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    Mute FlyingDogThing
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    Jan 16th 2016, 11:30 PM

    You know nothing Jon Snow.

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    Mute Eugene Walsh
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:05 PM

    All these celebrity DJ, tv anchor newsreader types, tv hosts and presenters need all to be put out to pasture. Sick to the back gnashers of the lot of em. Condescending, contemptuous, over bearing over paid egotistical self righteousness and centred maggots. Ya you heard me !!

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    Mute Peter McGlynn
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    Jan 16th 2016, 5:27 PM

    What u expect from a man that knows nothing.

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    Mute James Stratford
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    Jan 17th 2016, 6:02 PM

    Saw the interview, didn’t cross my mind that it was inappropriate at all. Was a very personal and difficult enough conversation to have, I thought Jon Snow did his job admirably and it was a moment that lightly trivialised the sad news, which is exactly the normal human response to dealing with something tragic that we don’t want to believe has happened. I’d say most people upon hearing the news of Rickman’s passing couldn’t believe it. It was perhaps just a subtle side note that ironically the person who was famous for the phrase could sadly believe it all too well.

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