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A THIRD OF households will refuse to pay their water charges next year, according to a new poll.
This morning’s Ipsos MRBI poll in the Irish Times says that 33 per cent of households have said they will not pay the charges while less than half – 48 per cent – intend to pay.
Eleven per cent are undecided and 8 per cent said the issue does not apply to them.
Unsurprisingly the poll shows that better off voters are more likely to pay with those at the other end of the income scale less likely to comply. It also shows that older people are more likely to pay with younger people less likely to pay their Irish Water bill.
Responding to the poll findings this morning, Environment Minister Alan Kelly told RTÉ that over 920,000 people had been in contact with Irish Water with a dramatic increase in registrations in the last two weeks.
“For those who don’t pay their bills, there will be fines, they will be active after 15 months,” he said today of sanctions facing those who don’t pay when water bills arrive next spring.
The poll also found that 60 per cent of voters did not believe the protest against Joan Burton in Jobstown last month was peaceful.
Only 24 per cent said the controversial protest was peaceful. Sixteen per cent had either no opinion or were unaware of the protest.
The Right2Water campaign is planning a mass demonstration against water charges in Dublin next Wednesday.
The Anti-Austerity Alliance/Socialist TD Ruth Coppinger told Morning Ireland said the “vast majority of people” are opposed to water charges.
She said: “Just because people intend to pay doesn’t mean they support the water charges. May of them are paying out of fear because we’ve had a government that has been trying to impose fear on people.”
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For me, this is not about the cost/paying for water , this is about the pillaging of your natural resources by big business. The government by their actions have proven that they are corrupt and recent polls have shown that they have no mandate. They have made no provision to safeguard OUR right to OUR water in the constitution. If they did this, I would pay. It has now been proven that conservation was nothing but a bluff with their fixed charges. Dont believe these polls and divide and conquer bull in the msm, You will pay low now but you will be crippled later. In 2000, After an IMF bail out and in concert with that organisations modus operandi, Bolivia’s water was privatised to the US Bechtel Corp. The Bolivian government (under the direction of the World bank) made concessions on affordability and insisted a separate charging mechanism was necessary and also played the investment card, however, by Feb 2001 Bechtel proceeded to hike charges by 300%. Only after massive riots leaving a 17 yo boy dead and thousands injured (that is a violent protest) did the people of Bolivia get their right to water back and Bechtel were run out of the country.
Sound familiar?
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you , then they fight you , then you win. At the moment, they are fighting back. Don’t give in to the lies.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/Bolivia_WaterWarVictory.html
Spot on James. Our current neo liberal FG/Labour government are colluding with the Troika to rob the Irish people. The water charges are being introduced as another mechanism by which the citizens are to be fleeced to pay for the systemic failure of speculative financial capitalism in 2008.
This is why our Troika ‘partners’ made it a condition of the bailout (stitch up) agreed with the FF/Green government in 2010. The IMF & ECB could not care less about maintaining and upgrading our water network which is the fairytale justification for the charges peddled endlessly by establishment. We could be all drinking slurry as far as Mario Draghi is concerned. What Mario is interested in though is the €1.2 billion + that the Irish citizens currently pay annually to run the water and sewerage systems.
If the water charges are successfully enforced, then this €1.2 billion annual revenue stream can instead be diverted to meet the repayments on Ireland’s ‘bailout’ loans (plus interest) used to directly cover private and illegitimate banking debt. In this way the EU & IMF gets to have the Eurozone banking system stabilized at the expense of the Irish people and we get to pay for the privilege through Water charges, Home tax, USC, Health & Education cutbacks, Pension levy and the extra 3 years added to our working lives etc etc etc.
It’s an ingenious neo liberal Catch 22 and we were the chumps until the Irish people marched together in solidarity on October 11th and put a stop to it. The quisling government has been variously back pedaling, spinning, making concessions, panicking, and flailing about for scape goats ever since. The neo liberal boot boys are in full retreat and it’s a thing of beauty to behold.
The people have finally drawn their line in the sand and are refusing to allow the ransacking of the country to continue. Boycott the Water charge. Can’t pay. Won’t pay.
https://www.facebook.com/WeWontPayTheWaterCharges
What really gets me about this is, after the protests the government has reduced the amount each house is liable to pay and capped it for 2 years (I think). What happens then????. You have signed up so they have you by the ba**s so they say “unfortunately the cost to deliver this service has increased by X amount so here’s your bill with an extra 200% to ensure that we can continue to provide the same level of service” You’ve tied yourself to them by the contract that is the application form and there are no other service providers to go to for better deals. There is no incentive to conserve water to lower the cost of the bill has the unit price will be increased as per their contract to ensure they get the same money from you regardless of the water you save.
And then 5 years down the line when the company has run up too many debts and is top heavy with executives, they will say that in order for the company to survive they must bring in external funding in the form of privatisation or it will be bankrupt. It will be sold for pittance due to is in debt nature, and will be sold under the slogan, “protecting your water for the future”. It will be done on some bank holiday in the middle of the night by a couple of ministers acting on our behalf.
Exactly Simon. Privatisation is built into the very DNA of Irish Water. The only way to stop it falling into private ownership is, ironically, to drown it at birth.
The 10th can’t come quick enough.
Ye didn’d make half of the fuss when Bertie Ahern was preparing to sell out our forests and natural wealth to Swiss investment banks.
Well said James, the amount of people I have spoken to who have no concept of what the end result of privatisation looks like. It is unbelievable that our so called “Leaders” are actively paving the way for our most vital national resource to be sold off. Without water, we die, simple as. We cannot allow Irelands water to get into the hands of those multinational corporations. Dec. 10th! We need to stand together.
Bang on Simon. Its in the small print.
That’s because we couldn’t see the wood from the trees Chris Kirk.
Wwe do now.
Coddler I sent your lot an e-mail a week or two ago – find out what’s going on if you can – please and thank you !
How is that news??
Leave it out!!!
The fuss was made Chris and it didn’t happen! Sorry you must have missed it! Don’t worry it’s not too late to get involved in this action, more the merrier!
Yep, as was shown when a irish water can was dual branded with veolia. Check out their website veolia.ie privatisation is a certainty. Those who say otherwise are on smack
Water Van even!
James you are right. Maybe you or others have mentioned this but basically when you sign up to this each household gives Irish Water more and more power over this natural resource.
Take the water that comes in that is treated you pay for that as we all know. What frightens me is that IW has to be informed of any water butts or conservation systems one has on “your property.” What this basically means is that is everyone lowered their usage by harvesting water that falls on one’s roof, then you will be charged for it in some point in the future. So technically Irish Water owns the water in the sky too. That is some amount of regulation for a basic natural resource and it is astonishing the power that is being pumped into this quango by the state.
Also it cost around 145million in legal fees to setup IW. It cost around 48million to dissolve Anglo. Makes you think doesn’t it?
As pointed out in the Vincent brown show, it only takes 2 signatures to privatize Irish Water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w61OsG7VKMc
Liam Twomey FG TD went to to say:
“There’s no need to go spending millions of euros to have an referendum on this issue”
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0006/sec0005.html#sec5
(6)The Board shall not, without the consent of the Minister and the Minister for Finance, alienate the share issued to it in accordance with subsection (4).”
What you said James! :)
No Signed Form … No Contract …. No Consent.
Write them a letter with YOUR terms (if you wish to pay) and ask them to return it signed by their CEO and Minister Kelly. The water infrastructure and its operations is the property of the Irish community / people NOT the Governments / EU or Troika.
the people would need a referendum as well to keep water in our hands only, if they don’t give that, you then know theres a rat in the room – don’t pay it.
No turning back now,still not paying.
F*ck yeah!
What? Only a third won’t pay?
I thought nobody was paying.
Hell no! Downfall the 10th of December!
even a 1/3rd not paying will be enough to derail the company. the bigger picture is that 48% are paying and IW will defiantly not survive on 48% compliance
David, think about it, 48% compliance.. ITS A DISASTER FOR ANY COMPANY. LMFAO
Media propaganda, trying to get more people to believe there is a sway in people willing to pay,those figures are taken from mid air, a false poll to try and convince people to pay,ignore it.
HE USED CAPS AND LMFAO HE MUST BE SERIOUS.
No it’s called shouting. I wanted to make sure you heard that IT IS A DISASTER FOR ANY COMPANY. the LMFAO was cause I actually fell of my chair laughing at that statistic.
Trevor is right, don’t believe the surveys – they’re biased and one sided.
Believe Trevor instead.
No only a third intend on paying
@simon The reason why you won’t be paying – at least for a while is because your parents will be paying… fortunately living in your mothers house doesn’t mean you pay water charges.
Sorry read that wrong
I won’t be paying,Sergeant !
@sergeant why do you feel the need to insult, It does nothing to add any credit to your post. At least you could get your facts right before you go on a rant. Happily married with 2 kids, who I don’t want to be saddled with more EU debt than they currently are. You are more than welcome to go out an protest that you want to pay this Charge, its your democratic right.
Readers of the journal seem to have a very SF/IRA slant so any journal polls are skewed. Sf/IRA sympathisers tend to protest and oppose everything.
JJ this not a journal poll its a MBRI poll for the Irish times. One of the few news papers in Ireland that personally I would reguard as having some integrity.
I was referring to a poll done by the journal a month ago (ish) . About 60% said they’re not paying. I was referring to a poll done by the journal a month ago (ish) . About 60% said they’re not paying. I’d pay greater heed to Ipsos MRBI data.
What happened to my post. I’m repeating myself now. Haha
Jj that’s a very general view, I have no sympathies towards sinn fein or the ira and believe they would be just as corrupt as the current government, so don’t tar everyone with the same brush.
Sorry Thomas but journalism and integrity should not be used in the same sentence.
With only one third not paying, and kindly racking up some fines in the process which will eventually be recovered, we may actually end up with more investment money than anticipated.
I hope more people don’t pay.
With 1/3rd not paying the company will not survive, especially if they have to wait for people to sell their houses first. FG will also loose the election and I’m sure a hot topic on the election trail will be IW, that’s if IW makes it to the next election. I hope more people don’t pay either. IW will be the first company in the history of company’s to keep running with less than 50% of its customers paying, but then again we are a nation of first. ;-)
So Simon – if IW goes away, and the funding for infrastructure has to come directly from government funds, then what austerity measures do you think the govt (who ever that is) should implement to hit the deficit targets? Because avoiding more austerity is the whole reason for IW existing in the first place.
Most of the silent majority of fg/ff die hard supporters will pay that’s where the 48% comes from, you could probably seeing that 2% each way as well so we could see anywhere between 46% and 50% compliance
I wonder how many people have registered with Irish water just to get the tax credits.
justanothertaxpayer, apart from the fact we’re ahead of target on income tax, and capital gains. Apart from the fact that the government just gave away loads in the budget favouring high earners over working class. The fact that we’re not in recession. the fact that we are expected to beat growth by over 3% this year and even more next year. Apart from the fact were on track to beat the deficit to some 2.7 % ahead of target none of that shows we need austerity any more. The money could have come from there. The money could have also come from not wasting it in the form of setting up a super Quango or paying bonus’s or excessive wages to un-needed staffing. And on top of that the LPT is soon to un-capped and in some cases property’s will have gone up by 30 – 40%.
I’d say firstly they should have taken the 1.2bn we currently pay for water and actually use that to start fixing leaks, this would then reduce the amount of treated water needed by nearly a 1/2 which would then have the knock on effect of reducing operational costs. They could also chase up all the business that are in arrears of paying their water rates
you see . there is a better way of doing things. unfortunately the government are not very clever at seeing beyond making the people pay for it over using their brains for once.
justanothertaxpayer, what’s the difference between ” funding for infrastructure has to come directly from government funds,” and funding via paying directly via IW.
None really, me and you will still pay either way, but at least direct funding from the government will not put people out on the streets because they can’t pay, direct funding from the government will mean even the poor and vulnerable will be looked after in our society.
@Simon – Couple of problems with your statements. Firstly, I am assuming all your stats mentioned are correct, but they are all based on the current income and expenditure projections, so take away the water charges and we are 1.2b short.
Secondly, your idea of taking the 1.2b currently spent on water and using it to fix leaks is not going to work, because that 1.2b is the cost of keeping what we have in place only. If we want to fix the leaks, and the broken treatment plants, then we require around 10b in investment.
Finally, the difference between government funded and paying directly via IW is a straightforward case of market forces. You are correct that we will pay for it either way, but if we get the private IW entity to borrow the 10b rather than the government, then the debt does not get registered on the government balance sheet. For IW to be considered off-balance sheet, it cannot be funded greater than 50% through taxes, which is why we have a water “charge”. If we take the 10b into the government balance sheet, then the interest and repayments are from the government expenditure, which screws up all your numbers above and blows the reaching of 3% deficit out of the water. Which then leads to more austerity….
As for your final comment – there is nobody going to be “…out on the streets because they can’t pay…” in either scenario, so can only assume you are making that up because you don’t feel confidence in your argument.
My stats are based on what the government and CSO are continually shouting in the media of late.
By setting up a plan to fix leaks first would bring down running costs. The 1bn they wasted on metering and IW super quango could have gone some way to start bringing down running costs. we are still funding the current system with the VAT increase. Chasing arrears and making sure business pay their rates would also add to the fund.
1.2bn on running water cost, can see your point there, but LPT is used for local services so some of the money could come from there instead of wasting it on DOB. The government also did a give away budget to try and offset the water charges when instead they should have just put that straight into fixing leaks. once you fix a few leaks your ruining cost go down slightly free’ing up more money to fix more leaks, and so on.
If IW borrow 10bn then it will need to be paid back and more than possible by privatisation.
My final comment is supported by 97,000 property’s in arrears of their mortgage, councils threatening tenants with eviction as per their tenant contract, and, I think if you look carefully at these posts you will find someone being threatened by their landlord that if they don’t pay IW they will not have their tenancy renewed. And then there are those who are currently just a step away from being homeless. so I’m not making it up. Putting more bill’s though peoples doors Will have a knock on effect and will tip some people over the edge.
You know if the government were really serious about fixing our water supply they would have made that priority number 1, instead of over a year of IW and no actual plan to fix leaks, only a plan to borrow more money, get it off their books and set up a charging system firstly.
There is a better way of doing things. IW is as desasterous and top heavy as the HSE
Do you actually believe this tax is about avoiding austerity? It’s creating it! It’s about paying the bankers, as is the USC, the property and all the rest of the crippling burden we have been asked to pay because the cowards we foolishly elected haven’t got what it tkaes to stand up to the bullies and tell them we won’t pay. But then that might cost them the nice cushy jobs they have waiting for them in Europe when they lose the next election…. what would make you think that a plan to sell our natural resource of water is anti austerity?
We will know on the 10th if people are happy to pay lol.
You don’t have to be happy about it – you just have to pay it!
The only people who will have to seriously consider paying it will be homeowners because if they don’t then there will be a lien on their property which will have to be cleared in the event of the house being sold or bequeathed to children. Most homeowners will probably decide that it is best to pay the water charge rather than having such a penalty hanging over them.
Tenants on the other hand can cheerily refuse to pay anything because there will be no penalties. Fines may be levied but they can be ignored too because the Government has said there will be no jail sentences for failure to pay nor will their credit rating be affected. There is talk of some promised legislation in the new year to deal with defaulting tenants but any such legislation will almost certainly be toothless (if it is enacted at all, which I very much doubt). Why any tenant should bother protesting on the 10th is beyond me – you’ve won!
So, basically, this is a charge that only anyone who owns a house will have to pay. The usual chumps, in other words.
Sadly that will make this a greater failure – the intention was to broaden the tax base, instead, those who pay a huge portion of their salaries as tax will accept this increase, whereas those who were paying minimal or no tax beforehand will continue to exempt themselves.
I’m not saying they are the only protestors, but there is an undeniably large portion of those who have protested, are doing so because they are less familiar with the concept of paying tax. Especially one which isn’t automatically taken as their salary is received.
Actually, speaking as a tenant, my landlord refused to renew my lease unless I agreed to a clause saying I will pay all water charges, so I could find my family on the street if I refuse to pay.
Amen. Penny dropping for some
Take out the 8% not applicable and it means over 50% of Irish people will pay.
Happy days in coming years – Property Tax doubling, water charges quadrupling – oh and interest rates steeply rising!
The 10th December…#PeoplesDay its not just about standing against Double Water Taxes, its about saying Enough is Enough with the corruption, chronyism, the continuous sell out of us as a people and our Resources…..
December 10th is the day when we as a people finally stand up and start to take back the control of our own Destiny!!!!
Diarmuid the figures do suggest about half will pay,but yet in the last week we have heard government ministers state over 900 k have signed up to pay,when the figures liable are about 1.3 million.
@Michael – We should be able to nail this down in advance… how many people need to march in Dublin on the 10th for it to be enough? Surely you need the 150,000 from last time and a few more besides? Or will 10,000 be considered a success?
Diarmuid – 50% is still a complete failure for any company. What company can expect to survive when only 50% of it’s “customers” will actually pay them?
That is the sad truth of this so called republic, some people pay a lot and say little about it while others protest and pay feck-all if they can get away with it.
They do say that empty vessels make the most noise…..
I own my home! I ain’t paying
@ Nigel, enough is enough, so tired of hearing that comment, makes me cringe at this stage. Enough of what? The type of system we have will always have corruption, ‘cronysim’ etc. Democracies the world over will always have levels of corruption and not all citizens will always be happy about everything that goes on. So what are the alternatives? Socialism? no thanks, dictatorship? Fascism? Just what is being proposed? Form a utopian state where near perfection is achieved?
And what are people finally standing up against? Oppression? Tyranny? Come on now!
Just how do people intend on taking back control of their own destinies on December 10th?
This must be a shame for the Government considering the amount of money that it has invested setting up Irish Water project between water meters themselves and administration
Rock of sense as usual,Frank!
and
Could you at least use bit.ly and give us a brief idea as to what these links are about? I don’t know about most people, but a random longform link thrown in with no information does not encourage me to check it out!
Sorry Brian …
The first is a report from the Guardian which highlights the fact that Thames Water – the privatised London water system didn’t pay any corporation Tax
the second is the report on the British Government accessing irish Data or spying …..
I find that when a company makes a lot of profit in one country providing a Tax-Free service then they seem to assume because it works in their country that they should be allowed to do it everywhere else .
the easiest form of this expansion is as history shows us since history of empires ahs been written is usually through
1. A spy network
2. Bribes or blackmail of people who are trusted in positions of power in their “intended market ”
I specifically included the “spying” link to show people how inept the current government are at securing the State and how utterly ridiculous the notion of a database of our children would be in any electronic form –
There is currently a Nationwide database of the Nation’s children through the National School system being compiled …P.R.S.I. details and all –
A snake will if stopped in point revert to another …I hate snakes !
A point worth noting is that Jesus was not born at home because of a CENSUS – the Romans were all about control for their needs based on either violent subjugation or trade and bribery …
The empiric mind is the greatest threat to world peace – it always has been !
I will add I would have preferred to just leave the links rather than guide your thoughts on the issue -
No not a chance, we were told that the property tax was for public services.
Water is a public service, so I’m sure no judge in the country will dispute this.
@Trevor … spot on. Why would people pay for water 3 times.
1st in general taxation as we have always paid.
2nd in their Property Tax (which is also a regressive odious hated tax on Family Homes)
3rd in Water charges.
I am retired and could pay water charges but I am NOT PAYING because my children will be faced with large bills in years to come .At present young working couples have to pay RENT/MORTGAGE HOUSE INSURANCE CAR INSURANCE CAR TAX ESB OIL/GAS TVLICIENCE TV CHANNELS PHONES REFUSE NUMEROUS REPAIR/ MAINTENANCE CHARGES need I go on A reasonable person knows when to call stop CAN PAY WONTPAY to fund fund double/ treble pensions for retired politicians WAKE UP IRELAND TAKE A STAND DONT BE BULLIED
Not to mention the privatization of third level education that is coming down the tracks. Makes you wonder what future young people have here?
This is all spin to try and downplay the March on the 10th don’t listen to them, so please everybody try and get out and March on the 10th of December it’s so important and show this arrogant government that the Irish people have had enough as its only going to get much worse in a few years time and it will be privatised you’ll see and then it will be too late so let’s make this March count.
Can they just send out there poxy bills now and the mite get the message then when they see who pays and stop wasting my tax money on a company that’s goin down the swany anyway,people should be jailed for what’s happening in this country,corrupt fcuks
This poll has touches of never, never land about it. Did they carry it out in D4 only?
What’s wrong with Dublin 4, I was on the march with people of my community who are not only fighting the water tax, but also fighting the incinerator
Sorry, what I meant by that was Leinster House.
There are so many reasons why this charge should be resisted. Can someone with a pro water tax perspective list / explain why they are so willing to pay again for water? I really would like to see if there are valid reasons other than ‘ everyone else in Europe pays’ or ‘ we need to fix the system’ or ‘ to conserve water’ etc etc.
I’m not paying this tax – it’s all about revenue raising for future privatisation & if you do a little digging you’ll see that privatisation of water has only benefitted the companies responsible & their shareholders. The 10th of Dec will provide yet more clarity for this govt and they are rightly worried because water will sink them in the end.
But but but they pay in the UK and it’s important for conservation and the meters will identify all of the leaks and they will be fixed within 1 week…….and most importantly, we need to pay the 8 Billion interest on our bailout funds or the nasty Germans will be back.
@Setrakian I think the “we need to fix the system” and “to conserve water” are pretty compelling reasons. Yes, we pay for water through general taxation but the problem is that we are not paying enough and hence the parlous state of the water infrastructure. Investment is required to improve it. Water meters do identify leaks and thus are a significant help in reducing wastage. All this has been lost however in the fog of The Glorious Workers Revolution and other political grandstanding. Regardless of the possible political cataclysms ahead, the fact remains that more money will have to be spent on fixing the pipes and that can only be done by (a) water charges or (b) increased taxation. Either way, even if Irish Water’s abilities to collect charges directly prove to be a failure, people will still have to pay extra in the long run.
Tertullian, your comment is so simplistic and naive it’s shocking. Of course water needs to be secured and the system repaired, maintained and invested in. But if you believe the shambles that is Irish Water will achieve these worthy aims, or even make them a priority you haven’t been reading or listening to the reasons people are objecting to the charges. Anyone who thinks that this charge will save water (by repairing leakes, replacing pipes and investing significantly in infrastructure as is necessary) and provide a quality service that gives value for money is missing the point that this will be a private for-profit company which will set its own prices, make homeowners responsible for repairs while they make vast profits on our natural resource and we suckers have to pay for the privilege of drinking our own natural resource! And we know this will happen because 1. Its happened elsewhere when water was privatised, 2. It is the business of private companies to make profit, while it is the business of government and elected representatives to act on behalf of and be accountable to the electorate and 3. This government, like its predecessor, can’t be trusted not to maintain the cronyism and corruption of putting their mates and supporters on boards to make them richer on the backs of people with lower incomes.
All of these new piece about water charges across all media should read ‘People won’t pay water charges again’ We already pay for our water.
I can Ill-afford to pay these water charges, and on principal won’t be paying. It’s a regressive form of taxation, and one that that the poorest in our communities cannot afford.
Another escalating utility bill will on the micro level cause huge stress to low earners, and the most vulnerable, and on the macro level floor the economy.
I’m going to scrape together as close as I can to this magical ‘transparent’ figure of 160 euro that our magnanimous leaders say is fair, and donate it to Simon, Barretstown or another worthy charity.
I refuse to pay this government’s pay-masters and cronies. At least by donating to a charity, I can feel I’ve done some societal good. The powers that be can fine me as much as they like, they can ultimately jail me. I’m not paying.
Who the hell does Alan “I have my own private railway at the taxpayers expense” Kelly think he is fooling with his lies and spin?
Fact is 120,000 of those alleged contacts with Irish Water are no contract, no consent…
300,000 have private Wells. ..
What does that mean???
Blueshirts and anti-worker Labour are finished…
Roll on December 10th
48% Sheep
48% not willing to challenge the system for a better future for their children’s children. shame really
Absolutely Simon.
Only a socialist future can deliver that utopia.
The list of successful socialist/communist countries is endless.
It’ll be ok when the socialist nationalise Intel, google etc, and increase social welfare spending. The left hand doesn’t know what the far left hand is doing.
yawn… tired old comparison of modern socialism to stalin and mao. Id love to compare enda to hitler but its not really applicable almost as much as id love to see you debate some economic policies with any of our left wing polititians haha. What would you do? Scream ‘commie!’ to avoid making points and ‘terrorist’ at any sinner who was present as well?. The hysteria of the right wing is really showing these days.
33% happy with a substandard water infrastructure and want someone else to pay to improve it.
See my vest. I can see why your happy to pay if that’s all you think this protest is about.
Protest away but the end result is that we are the only developed country I can think of that don’t have direct water charges. And our shocking waste of it reflects exactly that. I’m happy to pay for my own usage provided there’s tax relief to cover the amount that is already paid for under General taxation.
well hey we’re the only country that doesn’t pay directly for water . we’re also the only county that has VRT and USC.
You might also want to look into those other country’s and see how much the people benefited from having their water removed from government and set up privately. a lot of shareholder making vast profits off the back of a very basic human necessity. water is not and never should be a commodity used for profit
Sarcasm aside, could you list the countries where the privatisation of natural resources in circumstances of the cronyism evident in IW has been a resounding success and hasn’t put any further pressure on low income families?
The figures they say signed up is bullshit, it’s obvious they can say any figure they like how can we prove they are lying, but we do know they are lying because they have already proven they are liars. Alan Kelly Nd Jihn Tierney would say anything to save their own skins, from their own greedy little viewpoint IW HAS to work because if it doesn’t they’re finished . The thing is there will be a vote no confidence put forward by SF next week and then there will be a GE and we will vote in whatever part promises to abolish this immoral corrupt quango. The people who are continuing with this farce and wasting more of our taxes while people sleep out in the streets should be held to account for their actions. IW will go down in history as a treasonous plot against the Irish people. They thought we’d all be to busy reading The Sun and playing the lottery or watching X Factor to notice how they are destroying the country, They hope to benefit from our stupidity and our coma like state. They did not bank on people waking up, on an informed mass of intelligent, disenchanted people saying enough is enough. There are hundred if thousands of us that see thus as the beginning of the end. The end of immoral governance and hopefully the beginning of something good. We want a say in our countries affairs not a phoney democracy. Direct democracy was provided for in our constitution originally and perhaps that should be the way to go ?
Is it the 10th yet??? Not payin
Not a chance pay enough. ……no more …..need to start looking after ourselves instead of lining enda and Co pockets
Lies and more lies there is no way that 48% of the people are going to pay. I meet a good variety of people everyday and I have yet to speak to one that admit they will pay.
Maybe they just say that you because the can’t be bothered to listen to people call them sheep, or insult them some other way, or listen to how much better life would be if we toppled this government and lived in a socialist country. Anytime I read a comment on the Internet by anyone who supports the charge, or anyone who says they will pay it seems to be followed by someone insulting them. Why can’t those who want the charges abolished accept that there are others who will accept the charge and pay it even if they’re not entirely happy about it, that there are some who are even happy to pay it and think it’s fair to meter people’s use and have them pay for what the use. They go on about how this government doesn’t listen to the people yet they don’t seem capable to listening to or tolerating an opinion different to theirs.
Tom I would be prepared to listen to anyone if they could give me one good reason why we should pay this “charge”. Put simply there are none at least none that could convince me to part with my hard earned cash to support a corrupt criminal quango.
Honest Tom.
Are you a tax payer?
Joseph, although I replied to you my comment about people insulting others wasn’t directed at you in particular. My point is, you have your opinion, others have theirs they don’t deserve to be insulted because of it.
Mr. Phil. Officer. Yes I am a tax payer. So now you’ll tell me I already pay. Fine. The cost of pretty much everything increases so perhaps we need to pay more for water. And rather than increasing taxes to cover this and make only tax payers pay its fair to meter homes and have people pay a small amount for what they actually use.
I agree that it was all handled very badly by the government, but I’ll be paying. Of course I’d rather not, but I’d rather have a meter installed and pay for what I use than have taxes increased and have it paid for that way.
maybe thats because many who do pay become ”ive paid so everyone else should pay” so and so’s , who forget that some people CANT pay…
HT.
If you pay tax, do you not have a problem with John Tierney running this company? remember he is already responsible for a hundred million euros of tax payers money that seemingly vanished off the face of the earth during the poolbeg scam, he left the Sligo CC another eighty million in debt, as well as the Eyre square negligence, he is also in league with the people who had over a hundred million debt owed to Ireland by site serv dubiously wrote off in the murky sale of the company which then went on to receive the contracts to fit sub standard meters that won’t be used for 4 years. The stacking of the IW board by corrupt officials, the bonus and pension culture, the fact that water was been paid for but the money never reached the infrastructure. I could argue all day about the negatives involved with the IW scam.
Honest Tom. no one will be paying a small amount for what they use . they might be now that the carrot is being dangled. But remember the carrot is being dangled from the stick that is going to beats us black and blue in the near future. Is it fair that someone who genuinely has to make those decision on a daily basis of which bills to pay first, or if to go without heating to survive. And there are people out there like that.
Having it paid for out of general taxation, and especially under VAT means that every one pays. those who honestly cannot afford to pay, will pay less as they consume less in the economy, and those who can and have more disposable income that they spend in the economy will pay more. seems very fair to me and also looks after the most vulnerable in our society. And who are we if we don’t look after those that need help the most .
Well Honest Tom, if you’d rather not pay then don’t! That way you could show solidarity and support people who are trying to find a better way to secure our natural resources for future generations, and who in many cases could not afford to pay. Of course you’re entitled to your opinion, but mine is that there is definitely a better way to manage this than to put our water supply in private hands. People who pay are supporting the problem, people who don’t are part of finding a better solution.
Lots of people said they wouldn’t pay the property tax either. But they did.
Revenue collect the property tax,no revenue involved in this charge that’s the difference.
I didn’t until Revenue took it.
I wouldn’t say that the high compliance rate as of now is an indication that people are happy about it.
Don’t worry people Sinn fein will abolish all taxes when they get into power – and increase spending on everything so just keep the faith. The LPT and Water charges of €3 a week will be abolished and that will satisfy us.
When did SF say they would abolish all taxes?I heard them say they would increase some taxes.
They said they would abolish water taxes and property taxes and would introduce a wealth tax… take more people out of the tax net.. i for one can’t wait.
So now you’re saying they won’t abolish all taxes,so either they will or they won’t which is it?
You’re taking this very personally “Norman”. As far as my income is concerned they’re abolishing all taxes.
Not taking anything personally, just curious as to why someone would deliberately contradict them self?
Well as far as my income threshold is concerned i’ll have to pay no taxes so how am i contradicting myself Norm?
So no vat / excise/usc/prsi? really?
Even if they stopped things like FB paying 2.3m tax on 3bn profits would be a start.
“Sinn Fein will abolish all taxes” then you say they will introduce a ‘wealth tax’,you might want to look up the meaning of contradiction.
@Norm i don’t drink or smoke.. i drink water and buy food.. i don’t walk or cycle everywhere and i use recyclable toilet roll.. i don’t use tolietries and i don’t pay PRSI as my income is too little.
@norm – ditto USC.
*i walk and cycle everywhere.
So you do pay tax after all, good that you can admit it.
What tax do i pay ‘Norm’? – i choose not to pay for any taxes and involve myself in the elitist corporation driven state.. #workingman
Look up Vat,it’s a tax.You can claim to avoid every other tax I listed if it makes you feel better.
But there is no VAT on food ‘norm’ or water?
VAT on clothes, VAT on electric & gas, or are you naked living in the dark :-)
Lots of people did not pay. It was forcefully taken from their pay and pensions.
So no vat on bills from Internet service providers/phon bills?since when?
There’s vat on some food and all grocery non food like cleaning products and toiletries.
@norman – i borrow the internet connection and i live in a hostel… my clothes i get donated.
so you pay rent to no one. you pay electric to no one. you pay gas to no one. you steal internet access, you don’t pay for clothes or deodorant or shampoo, never paid for a service, and only buy food that has not VAT on it, bit of a stinky stingy tight sponger then. Say your loads of fun on a night out. Oh sorry forgot you don’t do that either.
any savings? seeing as you say your working and not spending anything really you must have some savings.
Lots say they wont.
Bit more say they will!
Those on lower incomes can’t afford to pay. Hopefully those who can afford it refuse to in principal and stand with their fellow countrymen. The governments divide and conquer tactics will not work.
The company needs a hell of a lot more compliance than 48% if it is to survive and fund itself. I don’t know of any company that runs on 48% of its customers paying.
No details of poll provided, (in a survey of 11 people, 6 of whom were farmers and business people who pay anyway, it was found that a third wont pay). Polls are meaningless without context. Lazy piece of click bait.
If the same survey resulted in 80% refusal to pay then journal readers would treat it as gospel. There’s a particular type of commenter and reader here and its glaringly obvious from reading comments.
The proposal, planning and attended implementation if IW us treason. Some day it will be accepted as this. The government conspired to take away our natural resource and colluded with other parties to install meters to give back to us what us essentially OURS. TREASON
More like two thirds at least won’t pay and anyone who does pay us an enemy and a threat to the people.
@Glen that is the most thought provoking comment yet today!
That’s what I like to do provoke people to think …. It doesn’t always work tho !
provoked me to think your a d1ck ..
Glen,
I won’t be paying. But if my neighbour decides to pay, that is their choice. Freedom of choice is a republican ideal.
I certainly won’t be classing them as traitors.
You people are soft and that’s the issue
I’m sorry you feel that way Glen.
Should we force our opinions on others, or should we try to debate with them and change their minds.
Who are you, or me for that matter, to force people into a decision.
What sort of society would we be, if only one opinion was forced onto the citizens, where they can have no opinion of their own?
Is that the type of society that you advocate for?
No Glen, you just don’t go trying to make enemy’s out of your fellow country men and women who have every democratic right to protest for the IW as those who protest against it.
Given the numbers saying they won’t pay and given that people don’t want increased taxes either, does anybody have any suggestions about how to fix the country’s crappy water system?
I have said it over and over again. Use PPP contracts to get companies to fix the worst parts of the system on a fixed cost basis. We are currently doing this for social housing, which is ill advised for projects where market demand fluctuates but PPP is designed for capital spending projects like roads and water infrastructure. Sure we might have to borrow some money for it but if we can bailout the entire banking system we can find the money for family homes in areas with boil notices.
To put into perspective there was an increase of e5 in Children’s Allowance cost the state in the region of e200million. Could be wrong on that one but the tax cut at the top cost the state 400million. Irish Water itself has cost 500million thus far to setup. If the state economized the automatic entitlements of all families regardless of wealth to DSP payments like Children’s Allowance and Pensions then you could very well have enough money to prioritize the worst affected areas. The money is there if we look at for it. Instead the situation is being used to wipe 1.2billion already spent on water off the books and use an additional charge to leverage money on the markets. People are not stupid. There are other options.
I think we had a lot of people say the same about bin charges, local property tax etc. They all pay in the end.
LPT , taken at source. you might as well protest and say you’re not going to pay income tax out of your wages.. see how are you get.
Bin charges. we were told that it would not be privatised and charges would be reasonable. here we are a few years down the road and a privatised bin collection system and charges upwards of €300 per year, and tax credits taken away.
IW – not going to cut your water off. not going to be deducted at source, not going to take you to court for it. I rest my case
There are a lot of people with a lot of hot air that don’t like representative democracy.
Power to the working man.
@Citizen.. are you referring to our Taoiseach?
Simon,
When I was young, there was no bin collection at all of any description. This was in 70′s and 80′s in rural Ireland.
The first time there was any bins collected, was when a private company started to distribute bits and collect rubbish. The council never collected bins.
Personally, I never understood why Dublin had to be so special and get this for free.
But we now pay LPT to cover local service. I know everyone likes to spout out that other country’s do it so should we, and in other country’s local services includes things like waste collection. Only in Ireland do we continually pay twice for services. This has to stop. I have no issues paying tax and for services. But I would like my monies to be used wisely for the benefit of the people, accountability and transparency. In the UK you get a list of how much money the county’s get and where it goes. We get nothing here.
CitizenSmith, representative democracy is predicated on the elected officials fulfilling their promises – whatever we have here at the moment is something else. Bondholders unburnt, Property Tax. Water Charges. The direct opposite of the platform these people were elected on.
Yes Simon, indeed.
But bins were never a part of that in rural Ireland.
I didn’t pay my LPT until it was taken.
But it certainly wasn’t because I expected my bins to be collected.
Watcher on the wall, what was in their program for government?
Simon, one thing that you now have in your, and Dublin’s favour is that SF are now running Dublin City council.
They campaigned against the bin charges.
I’m 100% certain that they are now, at this moment, working towards dismantling all bin charges for Dublin.
I mean, they wouldn’t campaign against something and then, when they have power, do nothing about it?
Would they?
You will have your free bins again inside the next few months, I’m certain.
CitizenSmith – the program for Government is not relevant to my point, other than it being the starting point of the betrayal. They were not elected on the basis of their program for Government.
@ citizen. LPT their 2011 manifesto
“Funding Local Government: Fianna Fail’s proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair. But as we tackle the fiscal crisis, we will have to cut central exchequer funding for local authorities, and we recognise that local authorities will have to find more sustainable sources of revenue appropriate to local circumstances. What will be viewed as fair in South Dublin might be viewed as unworkable in rural Clare.
In this context, we will empower local authorities to put in place, following the 2014 local elections, fairer alternatives to Fianna Fail’s and Labour’s recurring annual tax on the family home. The options would include:
• No extra local taxes, forcing local authorities to close non-priority services and / or to deliver increased efficiencies;
• Increased local user charges for waste etc.; or
• The option of a local “site sale profits tax”. Such a tax would be levied on the profit made from the site value on the sale of a residence (sales proceeds, less cost indexed by inflation, less stamp duty paid and less home improvements)”
Simon, if the people returned a FG majority then you might have a point, they didn’t. They chose a coalition. Vox populi vox dei
Then what was the point of your comment on what was in their program for government cause they have yet to deliver on a lot of that also , they also have a majority in the house so should have no problem in getting any legislation or bills through.
Please go and read their program for government, http://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/ProgrammeforGovernmentFinal.pdf
This is an extract
A New Water Network: The new Government will create Irish Water, a new State company
that will take over the water investment maintenance programmes of the 34 existing local
authorities. It will supervise and accelerate the planned investments needed to upgrade the
State’s inefficient and leaking water network so has proved so unreliable during the recent
harsh water conditions.
well you see they were not elected on their program for government. When they did not get majority then went into power with Labour and then scraped their manifesto and came up with a program what we had no choice in. so basically we demoniacally elected a government to dictate to us for the next 5 years.
How is it that Labour were against water charges and FG were against reoccurring property charge, yet when the 2 went into government together we got both charges. how can that be a program for government derived from both their manifesto’s
Going though that program you’ll notice that there are plenty of things they have not done. the manifesto is what they were elected on and the failed in every aspect of that. 5 point plan my arse.
Again, they did not get a majority, the people chose to have a coalition. You obviously don’t like the idea of a representative democracy. We elect people to represent us.
You might fool some people with your everything is free b******t,get it through your pea brain,there is nothing free in this life,if you refuse to pay for a service, someone else will be asked to pay on the double, otherwise you will get not get a service,period.
Check out Ireland will rise/ Andrew Galvin on YouTube
Everyone pay taxes, it doesn’t matter how you acquired your money, YOU PAY TAXES… every time you spend it. So this notion of “tax payers” is (with all due respect) is an ego trip. Everyone pays and now they are hassling us to pay for something that NO ONE worked to supply which is water. Mother Earth provides this FREELY to all earth’s inhibits and I think to charge for something that does not belong to anyone BUT is EVERYONE’S is BEYOND THE PAIL.
I am NOT paying. And the GREAT thing about it is; Mother Earth loves me and WILL provide me with WATER :-D
Angela. Why don’t you just collect what Mother Nature freely provides and us it as it is. Also get rid directly of what was freely provided when used. Of course there has been a process before you get your water through the water mains and the disposal of waste through the sewage network.
Wow still 50% are asleep and are happy with any and every tax the Government throws at them, some times I despair
I mean if 52% tax on your wages ,23% vat after that on any goods you buy,90 cent out of every liter of petrol
meanwhile tax exiles debts are wrote off ,multinationals pay little or no tax and homeless people die on the streets
Merry Christmas
https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=1cdvb5bl#/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=rbCD8HA11sg This is why we should not pay for water
The 10th is a stupid day to have it. There are many people that can not just take a day off work, in December, to go to this
Yes, I was thinking it would be better to have the protest on a Sunday… however those who are not working (due to lay offs, business closures etc.) will be working on our behalf on December the 10th. And I am glad they have the time to do it :-D
Johnny Leddin
Not generalising at all there are ya?
People will pay one way or another
I heard this yesterday “Alan Kelly told RTÉ that over 920,000 people had been in contact with Irish Water” ha ha what a joke, when he says “in contact” what does he mean. They have never told the public how many people have filled out the Irish water form correctly, they just twist the figures to make it look good for them, contact could and does mean just sending back blank forms or “No Contract” written on them.
Give us a breakdown of what the response is on the forms, then your telling the truth, not just sweetining up the figures for your own benefit.
Those who pay do so unwillingly but they will gladly see the back of these traitors in the next election, snouts in the trough will be sizzling bacon come election time. VIVA LA REVOLUTION
Oh by the way, do you know those previously given PRSI numbers, they can not possibly delete them from their servers, why? Because it would mean they would have to completely reformat there computer server, even if you delete a file from a computer its still there to be recovered at another time. I think this will be a very costly expense.
This taking conspiracy theory a bit far.
The media are throwing out numbers that are favourable for the government. Just to be clear the biastness from the media has never changed, the numbers are way off in my opinion.
are you basing this on the 150,000 adults and children that marched in Dublin a few weeks back, or the red thumbs on this site? Perhaps you have an alternative source?
Sounds about right 2/3rds of us fund the country, pay all our bills and pick up the tab for those who just aren’t bothered to pay their way…
You live in Asia according to yourself,so what do you fund here exactly?
I was talking to someone who says they ain’t paying for water no matter what. They then went on to tell me they have no TV licence. Then as the conversation went on they told me they were in hospital for two days. My question is this, where do people think we get the money to pay for services?? Oh and that person lives in a council house.
Please read URGENT!!https://www.facebook.com/finbar.markey/posts/982041731813248
Did I read there you’ll be fined after 15 months??, sure the current Gov will be long gone by that stage & this horrid creation too I’d imagine
Tom dont be to hard on people that dont fit your expectation.
have your say