Because it’s real life and not the movies. Every police force shoots to kill.

I have never fired a gun but I assume the cops who did this have been given target practice training

Jason I have shot a gun, many guns and am quite well trained in their use.

A well trained police force will actively shoot to incapacitate where firearms are deemed neccesary to resolve a situation.

No Sarah,

Theyv’e been given a course in potato peeling Doooh

@ Alan

A well trained police force will actively shoot to incapacitate where firearms are deemed neccesary to resolve a situation.

Must have been with the IT Police Alan

Alan, I have absolutely no idea what police forces you are talking about. Most police forces around the world train their officers to aim for centre-mass to maximise the chances of a hit. Shooting at a piece of paper on a range or shooting at a living and breathing target are two completely different things. Extremities are extremely small targets to hit and seriously increase the chances of innocent casualties if aimed at over a centre-mass shot.

I guess these guys were out sick on firearms training day

@ Sarah,

You sure you’re not really a blonde ?

Forgive me for thinking that the police force in washington dc are one of the worlds most most highly trained

They are Alan,

She’s dead and no collateral damage

Alan, all the training in the world won’t matter if a police officer just isn’t skilled with a firearm. You’ll notice that a basic proficiency with firearms is an end requirement with police forces, not match grade marksmanship. They train you so that you can hit a target within 50 feet and not kill some poor bystander in the process, not trick shots like taking a moving persons arm off. Leave that to the actual marksmen (who also go for centre-mass funnily enough).

Why is it that any time some one does something like this putting people in danger and the police end it the only way they can, having tried to block her in and surround her etc, the police are blamed. This woman whatever the medical reasons forfeited her rights as soon as she started mowing secret service and police down, and trying to ram into sensitive buildings, with a one year old baby in the car. There’s only one person at fault here.

Alan, where on the body can you shoot someone & guarantee that a bullet will incapacitate but not kill? Hitting an arm or leg doesn’t mean you won’t rupture a major artery, or that the bullet won’t be deflected by a bone & travel into the torso. That’s aside from the fact that limbs are small targets & are usually moving about quickly; would it have been acceptable for police to aim for a limb, miss & hit someone else?

@Ronan – can you show me where in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights it says “but execution without trial is ok if you piss off a police officer”?

@ Emily,

It’s in the interpretation

Alan,

How do you suggest they incapacitate while she’s in the car? Most of her body is protect by the car itself, upper body and head are the only available targets.

Second have you ever have someone drive at you to knock you down? I’ve had, a joy rider (death rider now) around 20 years ago. Just because I was crossing the road in front of him. If I had a gun then, I wouldn’t have shot to incapacitate – there would have been one dead joy rider! A car is a lethal weapon.

That woman knew the risks the minute she decided to get into that car. She forced this situation and the outcome.

@Emily Elephant

What about the right of those officers to be able to go home safely to their families tonight?

What about the right of innocent people walking and travelling those same roads?

The joke here is that if they hadn’t shot her and she killed innocent persons, everyone would be on here asking why they “didn’t take her out!”

She’s the one that forced this situation and she the one to blame.

Alan’s a senior officer with the grammar police. Shoots his mouth off on regular occasions, but no fatalities yet.

The police are entitled to shoot in order to defend the lives of others, including themselves. Any other principle would be stupid.

But it’s far from clear that they actually did. She was lodged in a barrier when they shot her and they apparently had her cornered.

We seem to have come to a situation where any civilian who gets into an altercation and kills someone is subject to the closest scrutiny, e.g. Zimmerman. But if it’s a police officer, then the case is closed before it’s open. Some people are even prepared to say that she “forfeited her rights”. I find this extraordinary.

It’s extraordinary that you’re already leaning towards calling it an unlawful killing based on a short clip & second-hand accounts of what happened.

@ Sandbag,

Par for the course for emily

2]
If you have a suspect car that is driving towards a national monument and will not stop you cannot shoot to incapacitate.Which is a MYTH anyway.Bulletts dont drill nice little holes in you so the hero can clutch manfully at the fleshy part of his arm as any Hollywood film reality .They bludgeon and literally explode in a body or limb,so getting shot in the arm would amount to literally half an arm being removed.The trauma of that alone can kill you.
When it comes down that a vechicle or person has crossed the three safty zones of your personal or whatever security without heeding a stop,stop orwe will fire,and final warning stop or we will fire with a warning shot across or in front of them.Then you have no other option.

1] Maybe its abit embarrassing for the Liberals out there to see that black people can go just as nutty as supposedly white christian hetrosexual gun owners???
The last three incidents in the US including this one have been linked to Afro Americans.Not forgetting the DC sniper of a few years ago are all Afro Americans.

Yes they have Sarah.But no police officer is trained to shoot to wound.If you have to use your sidearm its because only deadly force would solve the situation.If it was a situation where less leathl force is needed you could taser,baton or mace the assailant.Which of those four options do you think would have been effective in the situation?

They are actually rated as one of the worst police depts in the entire USA.

So you can” shoot the balls of a mosquito at 500 paces”? IF you are that well trained you will know how difficult it is to shoot a extremity and should know what damage a bullet will do???
Another Mall ninja methinks.

Sandbag – I am not leaning to any such thing. The video does not show a slam-dunk case of self defence and it ought to be investigated properly. If the police had no reasonable choice, then they had to shoot her and that is the end of it.

But most people want to jump straight to the conclusion without bothering to investigate the facts, which as you say so far amount to a short clip and second hand accounts. We wouldn’t treat the death of someone at the hands of a civilian so lightly. Why do different rules apply to the police?

Killing someone before you get to find out what the situation was, is what makes it all the more sad.

Noel, the police don’t always have that chance.

@Declan But they had a chance here they ran her plates and knew she had no Islamic background. Plus plenty of time to disable her car if they had a mind to.
Badly trained simpletons in uniform is the problem here.

And if it had been a genuine terrorist attack.IE a car loaded with explosives that then blew up what would your excuse be then??No doubt braying about US Govt conspiricies or Yayyying on the terrorists for striking a blow at those” fukin Yanks?”

@Simon, and if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle

Martin, I have a American drivers license and license plates. I don’t think that the authorities can determine I’m a catholic from that info.
I never told the department of motor vehicles I am a catholic.
You can make a guess with a name what nationality a person is and religion as well but that’s a guess.
Timothy mcveigh drove up to a court house and blew that up but he wasn’t Islamic.

And if you had intelligence you could contribute something useful to the discussion.

Declan this woman was shot running from her car see link below, If dangerous driving is now a capital offence in the US, with the execution to be carried out on the spot I’m not surprised you legged it over here to Ireland where our Gardai think before they act in similar situations

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57605915/woman-dead-after-chaotic-capitol-car-chase/

Timothy McVeigh was a known militia man and on a FBI watch list this woman wasn’t .

In a crowded city? Saying shoot out the tires and aim for extremities is all nice and good but what happens if you miss (which the chance is extremely high)? You aim for centre mass to maximise your chances of hitting the target so innocent bystanders don’t get hit. Life isn’t a video game or a movie.

How do you know that it wasn’t last resort. We’re you there? I’d doubt it.

Hard to ask questions when someone is in a sports car trying to run you down but then again you seem to have all the answers!!!

Hard to shot tires from a moving vehicle lad. You seen the video, police boxed her in with three vehicles and she still got out. The rules of engagement are: if there is a threat to your life, life of a fellow officer or a member of the public deadly force can be used. Just because she didn’t have a gun, doesn’t mean there was no threat. A vehicle barrelling towards me at speed would make me use deadly force. It’s real life.

I was not there but based on footage and news articles this was not a last resort.

A well trained marksman (ae one would expect US police force to be) will have no issues shooting out tyres in a crowded city.

Another well informed and thought out input there Alan

‘A well trained marksman (ae one would expect US police force to be’

‘ Hey guys we’re on crowd control at capital hill today don’t forget to bring the ”Well trained Marksman#

I don;t believe it !

Alan, you would not expect US police officers to be well trained marksmen at all. They are issued firearms as an emergency tool and nothing more. The job of marksmanship is supposed to be left to SWAT teams who receive the training needed as they have the skills to use firearms properly.

This is the story of a seemingly depressed dental hygienists with her baby in the car who lost the plot in one of the worlds most secure locations and it ended tragically for all parties involved. Curious how two of our commentators are comparing Dick sizes in their weapons and tactics knowledge. Either ye two Walter Mittys are members of Termonfeckin SWAT or you’re watching too much discovery channel. So please lads, leave it out or get a room!

Jesus. Your comments are dying a quicker death today than the woman driving that car.

@ David,

Amazing isn’t it. But guess what the police didn’t know that the only danger to the public was from a badly positioned dental implement. What would you’re attitude be if the headline read.’ Dental hygenist flips and runs over 6 Irish children visiting the white house’ Hmmmm ?? thought so

Ok lets say they shot out the tyres and incapacitate her in the car and then waited. What about the 1 year old? What’s the chances she would decide to kill the baby? Considering that she took the baby with her on this … what ever you want to call it … there’s a very good chance she knew both would probably not survive.

I hate seeing any life taken but the police did hold off shooting until she gave them no other choice.

Alan your playing to much GTA shooting tyres of moving vehicle is pretty much one in a million shot.

If managed to get a hit while vehicle is stopped still will not stop vehicle as it has 3 more to run on. Now only that but modern lexus cars low profile tyres with big alloys you could drive in a flat no problems.

You shoot then for largest mass you can not shoot at legs or arms that’s such a bad thinh to try. Odd are wont hit them. Your giving them further time to kill you or public and if you pulled off miracle shot and hit them in leg it aint Hollywood the surge of adrenaline they would not so much feel it and keep coming. You shoot to kill never to injure. Thats the training of every police force. Sorry but you’re completely wrong on this

Alan. Place yourself in the position of those Police Officers. You have heard on through radio that a black car has tried to ram its way into the White House and then you hear on the radio “Officer Down”. You see said car coming towards you. You have seconds to react. Is it a suicide bomber or just a local lunatic? Get it wrong and if it is a bomber then dozens can die. But shoot the driver and only one person dies and any possible threat is neutralised. What do you do?

Your logic is flawed Spock. My attitude is simply empathic to this human tragedy and all involved….. The woman, the baby and the officers. I do find our laptop cowboys with their nerf guns and playstations somewhat irritating. Regardless, live long and prosper.

Spot on David US cops are not trained to think just react. Those cops were right beside the car when it was paused all they had to do was shoot out the tyres or smash the windows and grab the wheel. Too many macho Xbox gamers on here advocating a shoot first mentality because that’s what they spend their afternoons doing. Nobody needed to die in this situation if the police were properly trained to protect and serve the people, of which this woman was also member of. She was shot dead while only guilty of dangerous driving.

You are all big kids, get back to your playstation.

Martin. As I have said if you were in those Officers position and you had seen one of your colleagues been knocked down after the same car had tried to ram its way into the White House grounds. Do you debate with yourself is this just some depressed woman or is she potentially a suicide bomber? Remember this is only weeks after the Nairobi massacre. And you don’t have the luxury of time. You have mere seconds to make your decisions. Do you play it safe and neutralise the suspect or do you try take her alive? If (and you at this time don’t know if she is a suicide bomber or not) you get it wrong and she is a suicide bomber dozens die including you. Play it safe and she dies but nobody else gets hurt.

Michael no decision was made here by the cops, If they had been properly trained to recognize that this woman was not a terrorist no one would have been injured. How many terrorists drive around with their kids in there car. Are you saying the cops are idiots and suspect all dangerous drivers as terrorist these days.

They had already being pursuing her and had ran her plates they knew she was not even a Muslim…please you clutching at straws here.

I counted five guns drawn and 8 shots fired at her as she sped away from the secret service uniformed officers..
After having 8 shots fired at me, I’d be high-tailing it as well.
So there is a pursuit of a couple of blocks. The car stops, the door opens and they shoot the woman.
She should have kept going, I guess. If you do what they tell you to do (stop for the police), they kill you.
There was a lot of noise about “the police didn’t know there was a baby in the car”, well there were five officers with their hands on the car looking directly in the windows. Five. The whole story doesn’t have the ring of truth, if you know what I mean.

So David,

This is not about the rights and wrongs just the sentiment ??

So Josh Dangerous driving is now a capital offence (to be carried out immediately) in the US is it?
you support that, These cop knew this woman was not a Muslim, therefore unlikely to be a terrorist threat. They saw her kid as did spectators 10 to 20 feet away. This was manslaughter by inept police.

@ Martin,

‘these cop knew this woman was not a Muslim’ and they knew this because.??

1) She was Black

2) She was driving a Lexus

3) She wasn’t wearing a Burka

4) Because martin thinks so

Shoot out the tyres..Hollywood movie MYTH! Tyres dont magically deflate when they are shot.
Incapacitate the vechicle…With what??An RPG7?,A normal car can and is well capable of continuing to be driven with 4 wheels on rims,the oil pan ripped out,no oil and the radiator full of holes for at least three miles at 40kph.Only way to stop it dead is to literally remove the human element.

Shooting at extremities..MYTH!! No police officer is trained to do that.Its centre mass or nothing.
Not to mind possible civil and criminal lawsuit for permantly injuring innocent perpertrator!
Waiting around car for person to surrender.Person has a dead man trigger switch and a car packed with explosive.Result ..Massive explosion and large death and injury to law enforcement personel and possible civillians. You can take no chances in a situation like this,and maybe this was this persons plan…Grand death by cop on international media.

Err compared to our lot they ARE ! To continue to be issued your duty sidearm in the US.You have to qualify every month on the range with a score of 80 or better at 15 meters.At least that’s what it was when I was there. Here our lot according to a recent report ,get to the range 3times a year and cant hit a man sized target 50% of the time at 10 meters.
SWAT teams your proficency with shotgunand handgun has to be consistently over 90% or better.Those BTW are normal duty officers weapons.

What I am saying Martin is that they had mere seconds to make the decision. Its alright for those sitting safe and comfortable to pass judgement when you have all the facts to hand. Those Officers didn’t. They had to make a split second judgement there and then. They most likey took the decision to fire because they felt that she was an immediate threat to them or others.

Btw Martin. What does a Terrorist look like? You said if they were trained to recognise this woman was not a Terrorist. Do they all look like Osma bin Ladin

Martin…You are a waste of valuable oxygen. You obviously have NO training other than Hollywood and know Sweet F All about this But unfortuneatly are entitled to comment,so we will just have to put up with your further idiotic outpourings.
“If they had been properly trained.,”I’d LOVE to see you say that to me in person or to any brother officers out there from the US or Ireland..!! You are a disgusting example of humanity.

Your a scary individual Simon and will no doubt need some treatment in the near future. When you lose an argument you just get angry, my advice is stop watching the action thrillers and get some empathy down the mind and body store,

What would have been the best outcome in this situation . The way it happened or nobody died at all. Both were possible outcomes but you want the women to be killed and you say to me “You are a disgusting example of humanity.”

Man get help and quick before you do harm. That is not normal conversation.

@Josh she wasn’t driving a Lexus if you knew anything about this incident you would know she was driving a Toyota but what are facts and details when you can make up your story to defend this crime.

Michael ….Childish retorts by macho gun fans . what are the chances????

No one here is in a position to access what truly happened. Perhaps the woman lost control and crashed into the barrier then in fear and panic decided to flee with fatal consequences. We don’t know. Equally no police officer went to work that morning with the intent of shooting a young mother. Sometimes there is no right or wrong, just misunderstanding and tragedy. No heroes, no villains just a dead young woman, a motherless baby and someone who has to live with pulling the trigger.

Martin you are the one claiming that Police Officers can be trained to spot the difference between someone with mental health issues and a Terrorist driving a car.

Of course they can be trained to spot the difference. Lesson starts with not shooting every dangerous or drunk driver while using the excuse that derserved to die because they might be a terrorist.

You are advocating the mass murder of innocent people just in case they might be terrorists. Your as paranoid as the Fox news loons.

When you use car as lethal weapon it must be stopped. Driver of car used it in this fashion. There is no such thing as shooting out tyres in situation like this. Reaching in car to grab wheel? What a stupidity idiotic thing to do. Thank god that person who suggested that is not police or would be dead before retirement. Can’t take a risk there is not explosives in car either plus fact there are people everywhere there it is tourist spot. Dont stop the driving and someone would die. The police are 100% in the right.

Had it been here maybe the guards would have rammed her off the road when she was at slow speed but the problem with that is that she might be driving fast for quite a while before error is made and she is boxed in and in that time plenty of time for her to hit another person or child.

ah and now you are a psychologist too little boy???Keep your conspirtcy self help bullshit to yourself.
Ga away and learn somthing about the subject you waffle on about ,as you have no clue about anything related to it.

@ Daniel,

I could be mistaken but I don’t believe they shot her because she crashed into the barrier.

Josh I think I hear you mother telling you to clean your room. Big Kid ye.

@ Martin,

Magnificent input… as usual

@Josh I didn’t see you replying to any other of my arguments directed at you. And I have never never seen your name or avatar before let alone rely to you so what do you mean as usual?

Martin,

You’re arguments are not arguments.

You’re working off sentiment..

Hatred of all things american does blind your logic or alternatively you could have been dropped on your head.

Check my twitter account I contribute regularly

You show your ignorance the more comments you make, How does pointing out the manslaughter of a dangerous driver make me “hate America” A country I consider to be the last great chance of mankind, I have commented dozens of times on the journal about my admiration of the founders of the US J Adams, Madison, Andrew Jackson. So don’t try that old McCarthyism stuff on me.

My arguments are logical and based on evidence like that fact that the woman was not even in her car “Weapon” when the police shot her dead. Lets face it you have lost this argument by a mile and its your fascination with “Firearms” and macho crap that has you on here defending the indefensible.

Please go comment on the Beano’s forum it would be more your speed.

And what contributions!! On this occasion you are wrong. The sentiments expressed so far as I can see are not anti-Americanism, they are disapproval of over-reaction on the part of law enforcement and perfectly legitimate. I see the machine is in overdrive now on the victim. She will move from being “depressed” ( who says so?) to being a paranoid schitszophrenic with a deep hatred of America in no time at all.

Totally agree with you Darlene.

Could they not have used a stinger to puncture the wheels and stop the car. Shooting at a car with a one year old in it, crazy stuff. No need to shoot anyone dead

Oh Yeah Paul,

Your’e on Capital Hill not far from the Presidents pad.
Crazy woman in a lexus. Lets fill out a Risk assessment form and get authorisation from the HSA and the EPA ( cause there could be some environmental discharges from the tyres) to deploy a stinger.
You’re on stamps today

Doo, ‘Pretty sure you would of been shot indiscriminately’ – what language you speke?

Obviously this woman had some serious emotional issues but to be fair to,the police she made no attempt to surrender and drove at a couple of police that had to jump clear, she could have killed any number of people if she hadn’t been stopped, I wouldn’t want to read that either her child or anoint her persons child was killed in a high speed collision. It’s very sad but the police acted to protect the public.

Paul, doing so requires a lengthy and organised pursuit. The woman crashing kind of removed any chance of that happening so the police took their opportunity to end the situation.

One woman and a baby hardly the biggest threat to America

Paul, I’m sure the man she ran over would tend to disagree with you. Her actions put a lot of lives in danger and could have easily killed a few people had she not have been stopped.

Sorry Tony, will not use big words again

Well I’m sorry anyone who acts like that will get a leathl response in the US Capitol.but I suppose you would expect their crystal balls to tell them that she isnt a potential threat,just a depressed black woman who wants to have a great send off and death by cop????

Martin why don’t you tell us all you know about shooting; specifically the penetration abilities of the various types of handgun ammunition against the various types of tyres that are on the market?

@Handbag …Is that really the best you can muster for the murder of a dangerous driver. Are you saying she had bullet proof tyres an unbreakable glass. A brave intelligent cop would have smashed the glass pulled out the key or grabbed the wheel. Why are you so determined to defend cops who are not fit for purpose.

@ Martin,

I know you got up late but this is dreamland Sh1t

Oh piss off.

I’m saying that you haven’t the first clue about the use of firearms & are basing your ideas on what it’s possible to do with them on what you’ve seen on telly. Add that to the massive chip you have on your shoulder with regards to police & you end up talking through your hole in order to back up your pre-conceived conclusion.

@HandBag….If your knowledge of “Firearms” tells you that a bullet cannot penetrate a rubber or Silicon tyre at point blank range you know nothing about the laws of physics .

And as to my your insane assertion about a “Chip on my shoulder about police” I have complemented my Garda force on several comments on this page alone take a look. Logic doesn’t seem to play a part in your conclusions to-day.

In the final analyses Your defending the murder/manslaughter of a dangerous driver and I find that incredible, I imagine you must be an unmarried young guy between the age of 19 to 34 that is either a student or lives with his mother. In few year when you get over your infatuation with “Firearms” you might see that this situation did not have to end with the death of woman guilty of a mere misdemeanour .

Perhaps you should question why you yourself seem to constantly jump to the defence of people in uniform when in this case they are clearly responsible for such tragic ineptitude. You should join the Secret service you seem an ideal candidate ie: capable of seeing things from one perspective only.

@Josh

Magnificent input… as usual.

see what I did there,

Now If you don’t mind you go back to you comics and PlayStation and I’ll go back to ruinning my business.

‘Dreamworks’ ?? Martin

Something I bet you would know all about reading your posts . …Your gas trying to defend the execution of a dangerous driver who was not even in her car “Weapon” when she was shot.

No danger to lives? I think the guy who was run down might disagree with you….

Jason, if that is aimed at me. Spent 17 years shooting weapons as part of job, including in some nasty places. I am fully aware of how difficult it is to shoot out tyres, a police sniper should becahlevto manage it. My point is that there were alternatives. Also did she actually fire at Hyde police?

Mattoid read article again she was shot after she got out of the car so at thevtimevshe was killed there was no threat to life. Earlier yes but oncevtyevthrest is over you stop firing

Spot on, Martin, ’cause after all, Jesus looks after the little children…