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'I never cost the State a penny, but now they're taking part of my pension'

Tens of thousands of people are losing out on receiving a full State pension due to rules that were introduced in 2012.

MARY WALSH IS one of many people whose pensions are reduced because they took time out of the workforce.

She’s one of the tens of thousands of Irish women who were forced to give up their job when they got married, due to the marriage bar. Now she’s being penalised for it – by €35 per week or €1,820 a year. She gets a reduced State pension due to rules that were introduced in 2012.

Since then, the Department of Social Protection has calculated what pension people receive by adding up the total number of PRSI contributions they made during their working life and dividing it by the number of years between when they started working and when they became entitled to their pension.

The changes made it more difficult for people to secure a full State ‘Contributory’ pension. In order to get a full pension, people need to have paid a minimum of 520 PRSI contributions over their working life and an average of 48 contributions per year. The more years your stamps are divided by, the fewer per year you have.

You can read more about the changes here.

Mary started work in the civil service in Dublin in 1967. She got married in 1972 (a year before the marriage bar was finally lifted) and had to give up her job. She and her husband Maurice moved back to Cahersiveen in Co Kerry before starting a family.

“In those days you were forced to give up work when you got married – if you were a girl.

“There was very little employment available anyway, there was nothing to do. As the children came along it became more difficult to get out to work, but there was no work anyway.”

Mary said it can be difficult for people to get their head around the marriage bar – which forced women to give up their jobs in the public sector, and sometimes private sector, when they got married.

“If you were teacher, because they were scarce enough, you could keep your job, it made no sense in the world.

It’s hard for somebody now to understand it, but that was just the way it was. There might be something else today that isn’t right but you go along with it.

“When you’re young, having a pension doesn’t come into your head,” Mary tells TheJournal.ie

She said there weren’t many job opportunities in rural Kerry during the 1970s and, even if she wanted to work, she didn’t have access to childcare.

“Where was I going to get a job and, if I did, who was going to mind my children? There are crèches nowadays but the price of that is another story. One of my daughters is paying nearly twice her mortgage in crèche fees.”

Mary started working in the credit union in Cahersiveen in 1995. She stayed there for 20 years before retiring in 2015. As a result of the changes introduced in 2012, her PRSI contributions are divided by 47 years, rather than 20.

Her ‘work lifespan’ was 47 years – 48 years overall minus one year due to the Homemaker’s Scheme (which was introduced in 1994, a year before she returned to the workforce).

“All that time I was at home, working at home, and trust me I had plenty of work to do at home,” Mary said of the years she was a stay-at-home mother.

The thing is, I never cost the State a penny, I never wanted a penny. If I had signed on for the dole I would be getting the full pension now, I just couldn’t justify doing that in my own head.

“There are a lot of men in this situation too, men who stayed at home to look after children or a relative.”

Mary is one of about 42,000 people losing out on a portion of their pension because they worked part-time for a period or left the workforce – either through the marriage bar or to look after their children or a relative. The issue primarily affects women.

Protest 

Yesterday, representatives from the National Women’s Council of Ireland, Age Action, the Irish Countrywomen’s Association, Fórsa, Siptu, Active Retirement Ireland and Pensioners for Equality held a press conference about the issue.

A protest is due to take place outside Leinster House at 12.30pm today, ahead of the Cabinet examining proposals to address the issue at 2.30pm.

“If I had retired in 2011, we’ll say, I’d just be short a fiver in my pension,” Mary said.

“It’s so wrong for so many people that did their best always and really never looked for anything, they just want a fair deal.

“I’m just so disgusted with Joan Burton (who was the Minister for Social Protection when the changes came into force in 2012), she being a woman herself, to come and with the stroke of a pen and knock so many people off (getting their full pension).

“It’s like one day before Christmas was you were okay and one day after Christmas you were short so much money.”

‘It’s sickening’ 

In October 2017, Burton told KFM she regretted bringing in the changes, but said the current Social Protection Minister Regina Doherty and Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe could rectify it.

When appearing on Today with Seán O’Rourke to discuss Budget 2018 last November, Donohue said the marriage bar was “bonkers” but the government didn’t have enough money to deal with the pension issue – about €290 million.

Speaking about the situation in the Dáil the same month, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said the “various pension anomalies … relate to four different sets of rules, some of which were changed in 2012 and some of which actually date back to 1961. The averaging rule dates back to 1961″.

The situation will be rectified by 2020 when we will introduce the new total contributions approach. Under that approach, it will not matter when a person made his or her contributions. Gaps will not matter.

“What will matter will be the number of contributions made over the period of someone’s working life, namely, in the 50 years between the ages of 16 and 66. There will be generous provision to disregard periods of home caring,” he said.

A spokesperson for the Department of Social Protection told TheJournal.ie: “Department officials have recently completed an in-depth report on the pensions issue.” They said they couldn’t discuss the proposals Doherty will bring to Cabinet this afternoon.

Mary said if the economy is doing as well as the government says it is, she doesn’t understand why it can’t pay to fix this issue, noting the overall bill will increase the longer it’s left.

“They like telling us we’re back in full swing – that we’ve fully recovered, maybe that’s the case in cities but not where I live. If they believe that they should have no problem paying us.

“I think they know it’s wrong that they have discriminated against women and they have done it for long enough. They need to put it right, that would be some kind of start.

“It’s sickening to be honest. I’ll keep fighting anyway,” Mary said.

Read: Explainer: Why has a big post-Budget row erupted over women’s State pensions?

Read: ‘I got married at 23 and had to retire. At 40, I started a chocolate firm in my kitchen’

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53 Comments
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    Mute GizmoIrl
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    Jan 18th 2018, 6:09 AM

    Yet Social Welfare were able to pay a French fella nearly quarter of million he wasn’t entitled to!

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    Mute Bewarethebeardz
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    Jan 18th 2018, 6:21 AM

    @GizmoIrl: totally unrelated.

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    Mute Alan M
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    Jan 18th 2018, 7:15 AM

    @GizmoIrl: I know it’s early but that is a waste of a comment

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    Mute Anita R
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    Jan 18th 2018, 9:30 AM

    @Bewarethebeardz: unrelated but unfair.

    18
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    Mute Blah blah
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    Jan 18th 2018, 10:39 AM

    @GizmoIrl: why state that he was French?? There are thousands of Irish people doing the same!!

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    Mute TheBluffmaster2
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    Jan 18th 2018, 12:17 PM

    @Blah blah: unrelated and inc

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    Mute GizmoIrl
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    Jan 18th 2018, 12:24 PM

    @Blah blah: are we not allowed state facts now?

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    Mute Me_a_monkey
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    Jan 18th 2018, 12:54 PM

    @GizmoIrl: and they used google image search to find him on linked in!

    4
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    Mute GizmoIrl
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:10 PM

    @Me_a_monkey: Yeh I read that, that’s why the PSC card is a good thing in my opinion. I have one.

    9
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    Mute Ronan Sexton
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    Jan 18th 2018, 6:45 AM

    Take a few years out of work and end up with the same pension as a bag of shiite who refused to ever work their whole life.

    452
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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:09 PM

    @Ronan Sexton: my gran had 12 children and raised 11 when she wasn’t allowed to work and there was no contraception available in a three bed house. Bag of shite was she? All her neighbours both male and female who had to stay home to watch children/elderly/sick people bag of shite were they? Crying me, me, me why is it always me!! You’re the bag of shite around here. Try thinking about these people instead of yourself all the time.

    35
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    Mute Brian Sean M
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    Jan 18th 2018, 2:03 PM

    @Deborah Behan: Ronan clearly said “people who refuse to work”. You said your Gran wasn’t allowed to work, there’s a difference.

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    Mute John003
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    Jan 18th 2018, 6:50 AM

    Seeing that the public service pension levy is being abolished this levy on old age pension should also be ended…….Was introduced as austerity measure wrong that it would become permanent

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    Mute mary conneely
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    Jan 18th 2018, 9:30 AM

    @John003: the pension levy is being abolished? Great news, I am paying more into to it than I will ever see in a pension.

    44
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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:12 PM

    @John003: it does not surprise me that Joan Bruton came up with this crap. Not one little bit. I’ll never forgive or vote labour again.

    53
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    Mute TheBluffmaster2
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    Jan 18th 2018, 6:16 AM

    it’s an absolute disgrace and one of the greatest scandals of our time.- not surprised Fg were involved although it was A labour minister.Its in their power again now to put it right.Regina Doherty will be judged on this one.

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    Mute Nollaig Elliot
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    Jan 18th 2018, 6:30 AM

    @TheBluffmaster2:

    Don’t hold your breath.

    67
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    Mute TheBluffmaster2
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    Jan 18th 2018, 8:47 AM

    @Nollaig Elliot: I won’t but there are a lot of us whose mothers are or will be in this situation and we have votes,

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    Mute Sean Conway
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    Jan 18th 2018, 9:04 AM

    @TheBluffmaster2: FF’s mary hanifin introduced it just after bankcorrupting the country. bet it wont disrupt her pensions too much.

    39
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    Mute TheBluffmaster2
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    Jan 18th 2018, 9:13 AM

    @Sean Conway: you can be sure of that Sean -saw her the other day looking very well for her age -probably dining out on best food and fine wines.

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    Mute Tony Murphy
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    Jan 18th 2018, 10:48 AM

    @Nollaig Elliot: if it was a problem with the politicians pensions it would be fixed over night. They make me sick to my stomach.

    28
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    Mute Peter Coen
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    Jan 18th 2018, 7:34 AM

    When the government asked people who had worked all there lives to take early retirement,they should have given the people an early pension.You look at these politicians not a wet day in their jobs and given themselves big fat pensions.

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    Mute john bennett
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    Jan 18th 2018, 7:03 AM

    It’s madness that someone can start working in Ireland at say age 50, work full time until age 65 and be able to get full state pension, no other country would have allowed this. The fact is that these women will still be getting a bigger pension than if they lived in UK, even though not full pension, just shy of 200 a week. A state pension of even 200 euro a week would require a pension pot at retirement of 190000 euro if you had to do it through a private pension. It’s simply unsustainable but no politician will admit this

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    Mute Ronan Sexton
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    Jan 18th 2018, 8:11 AM

    @john bennett: you are basically going on the dole. Should the dole be scrapped too?

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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:17 PM

    @john bennett: she didn’t start work at 52 she’s working her whole life bringing up children (The now workforce) and didn’t cost a penny to the state on dole or social welfare. I’d like to see you do that, no lunch breaks, no clocking off, no days off on a very limited budget. Do you not want women to have children now? Because your pension would be effed!!!

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    Mute Brian Sean M
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    Jan 18th 2018, 2:12 PM

    @john bennett: I’ve read the new 2020 rules will be that you have to contribute 30 years service to claim the full state pension. It goes down by 1/30th for each year less you have. So if you have only worked 10 years you will only get a third of the amount. Ten years will be the min to qualify.

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    Mute Matt Donovan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 7:08 AM

    Burton again! The 25,000 clowns in her constituency who were eligible to vote but didn’t bother should be ashamed of themselves because Burton has no shame.

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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:18 PM

    @Matt Donovan: zero shame in that woman.

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    Mute Deirdre Roche
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    Jan 18th 2018, 10:06 AM

    Sick of hear them say they have no money .There is never a problem when they are giving themselves a pay rise.Or for there own big pensions .

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    Mute Cicero
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    Jan 18th 2018, 8:40 AM

    So she worked 5 years (from ‘67 to 72) and then was forced to leave for 1 year due the marriage ban (lifted in ‘73 I presume from article). Didn’t return to work until 1995 and worked for 20 more years.

    Seems reasonable to me that she would not get the same pension as someone that worked 40 years, although I would include the year she was not allowed work because of that stupid rule.
    This article makes it sound like they are looking for pension contributions to be made while they were raising their kids. Are we actually going to start paying parents to raise their kids like a job now?

    48
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    Mute Theunpopularpopulist
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    Jan 18th 2018, 8:50 AM

    @Cicero: give people the option to pay prsi contributions towards a pension seems the fairest option to me (even if they’re not working).

    41
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    Mute Walt Jabsco
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    Jan 18th 2018, 8:50 AM

    @Cicero:
    I’d partially agree, but it’s crazy that she’s being penalised now for NOT signing on the dole during her year out.

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    Mute Cicero
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    Jan 18th 2018, 11:36 AM

    @Walt Jabsco: but the dole requires you to be available for, and actively seeking work, which she wasn’t for the 22 years, right?

    @Theunpopularpopulist: There is an option to do that with a private pension already, but gets messier with PRSI as it is a percentage of a salary not being paid, and even the typical PRSI payments are not enough to fund a defined benefit pension for working people, let alone stay at home parents.

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    Mute Brigid Houlihan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 11:57 AM

    @Cicero:
    1) From 1994 The Homemakers Scheme allowed anyone, male or female, to take up to 20yrs out to care for children under 12 or with disabilities, without affecting contributions. Unfortunately those who took time out before then were disregarded.
    2) Back in the 80’s Maternity Leave was a mere 12 wks so difficult for new mothers.
    3) No such thing as job-sharing was available back then. Paternity leave would have been laughed at! Parental leave likewise.
    4) No free doctor for under 6’s.
    5) No free play school places

    In short, back then the workforce was not friendly to young mothers. We have definitely paid our dues!

    By the time I get to retire I’ll have contributed to this state for 27yrs. Is that not enough to be entitled to a full pension?

    14
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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:23 PM

    @Cicero: there was no contraception for women either. My gran spent 12 years of her life pregnant while raising her family. Four of my uncles run their own companies, two of my aunts have high up civil service jobs. My other aunt runs a charity to help disabled children and my own father is s director in his company employing over 100 staff. Would you have prepared if my gran worked in a shop and not h

    8
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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:25 PM

    @Deborah Behan: had kids??! Why would you now look after any sick child or elderly person? Give them to the state for 24/7 surveillance at great cost so you can get a job in a supermarket and your pension will be intact to make the likes of you happy.

    4
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    Mute Clancy
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    Jan 18th 2018, 10:17 AM

    All of this tinkering around the edges is a waste of resources. We need to bite the bullet and move to a Universal Basic Income. That will be the future for all people.

    When we do that we can basically shut down 90% of Dept of Social Welfare because all claims & means testing is gone.

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    Mute Ronan Sexton
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    Jan 18th 2018, 10:41 AM

    @Clancy: How will this be funded?

    12
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    Mute Alois Irlmaier
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:07 PM

    @Ronan Sexton: By magic lol.

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    Mute Anita R
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    Jan 18th 2018, 9:32 AM

    Wonder is this a case for the EU?

    24
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    Mute Lelia Brandon O'Reilly
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    Jan 18th 2018, 5:30 PM

    I have 2,500+ contributions which is five times more than I needed but I averaged 39 a year. When I queried it I was told that it is only fair that people who paid the most would get the most. So someone worked 10 years (520) gets a full pension and someone like me and many others who worked most of our lives gets reduced pension. God help us we voted these people in

    21
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    Mute Lisa McCutcheon
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    Jan 18th 2018, 2:00 PM

    My mother is also affected. Roches Stores wouldn’t keep her on when she got married. We believe it’s in breach of the constitution. Shame on Joan Burton for introducing these changes.

    28
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    Mute Mick Curtin
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    Jan 18th 2018, 3:31 PM

    Wasn’t there a pension fund set up before? Yes, with over 20 Billion Euro in it. What happened that? …..ehhhhhmmmmm given away because of a banking crisis…….Can Government be trusted?

    20
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    Mute Mary Dunphy
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    Jan 18th 2018, 5:07 PM

    Government and Opposition continuously quote the minimum deduction which many of our pensioners are suffering from i.e €35 weekly. They conveniently chose to forget that many of those thousands of pensioners have been deducted over €80 weekly due to the averaging clause which was inserted into the qualification for a full old age pension. The consequence of inserting this averaging clause (possibly at the instigation of some public servant who is now enjoying a huge pension which many can only dream of) has caused huge inequality in the old age pension entitlements.
    Any pensioners who worked even 2 years before looking after a family or caring for elderly relatives and went on at a later date to work for up to 15 years prior to retiring are in receipt of circa €150 weekly. Any pensioners who never worked at a younger age and worked the same period of 15 years prior to retiring are in receipt of a full old age pension.
    The majority of those in receipt of a lesser pension were public servants who were made redundant due to the marriage bar which was enforced by successive governments until it was deemed unlawful by the EU in 1973 and this practice was perpetuated into the wider employment market where married women were refused employment simply by virtue of the fact that they were married. So it is one law for those who began working at an early age and another for those who may only have worked for the first time at age 54 or 55. It is well past time for the talking to cease and justice be done for all those being denied their full earned entitlements.
    There was no problem raiding the National Pension Reserve Fund to bail out banks, pay gambling bondholders and fund Irish Water – all money which had been put by to pay pensions into the future.

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    Mute Jack Mulveen
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    Jan 18th 2018, 5:45 PM

    An unfair system so rectify the matter now!

    14
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    Mute Alois Irlmaier
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    Jan 18th 2018, 1:06 PM

    That is strange as the government wants people to have private pensions because they gave the pension money to banks and bankers. Then you find out that GS has replaced 70% of global pensions schemes with their debt, that might be why the government wants pension pots to get 10% of wages now and for people to work longer as that money is being stolen and being replaced with bad rotten debt by evil companies but no one will say that because when this generation retires then they will have no private pensions because that money will be used to give CEO’s their pensions instead?

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    Mute Lovely Man
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    Jan 19th 2018, 3:55 PM

    I just don’t understand how a labour TD could have anything to do with CUTTING a pension. Except their own, obviously.

    6
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    Mute Neuville-Kepler62F
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    Jan 18th 2018, 7:03 PM

    State take LPT property tax from Pensioner’s Medical Expenses Refunds when they struggle to pay it …. odious country.

    “There might be something else today that isn’t right but you go along with it. … not anymore!”

    https://www.change.org/p/no-lpt-tax-on-family-homes

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    Mute Elizabeth Sheehan O'Reilly
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    Jan 18th 2018, 5:10 PM

    I never heard it was being abolished

    5
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    Mute Martin Maguire
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    Aug 29th 2018, 1:41 PM

    Is the correct question being asked?

    How many pensions is or will the former Minister get when she completes her working life and hwow will the legislation affect her?

    5
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    Mute Elizabeth Sheehan O'Reilly
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    Jan 18th 2018, 5:19 PM

    Drip drip drip. My heart is bleeding for Mary. May I ask did she get a ‘gratuity’ on leaving the civil service? Ie a cash payment for no particular reason other than she was leaving?
    Did she take out a private pension fund when she was working with the fetid union or did she have a higher take home pay as a result of not doing so.
    I’ve been working in the public service for 25 years. By the time I pay pension CONTRIBUTIONS, Public Service pension levy (even on money that’s not pensionable) and AVC to compensate for the 2 years I took off to mind my kids when they were young over €600 per fortnight goes back to the government all in the name of pension. Has she paid this all her life? So why should my contribution subsidize her? It’s about the life choices we make at the end of the day

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    Mute Mary Dunphy
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    Jan 18th 2018, 8:52 PM

    @Elizabeth Sheehan O’Reilly: Did Mary say she had been affected by this inequality or is she just standing up for all those old age pensioners who have been treated so unequally by the State? So sorry for you who has a guaranteed job for life, paid sick leave for up to 6 months every 4 years and who will more than likely be getting a gratuity in the region of €50k when you retire. How many of your 25 years have seen you pay a pension levy? At what rate did you pay PRSI during those earlier years? How much do you think all those pensioners who were kicked out of their jobs for life simply because they got married would have got in the late sixties and early seventies as a gratuity? How much do you figure their pensions would be if they had been allowed to remain in employment?
    Would it have been €150 weekly? Think on. Your lack of empathy towards those members of your gender who have been so mistreated by the government is the trump card of those in authority.

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    Mute Anita R
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    Jan 19th 2018, 12:52 AM

    @Mary Dunphy: hope the pensioners effected by this totally unfair treatment remember it at the next election.

    5
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