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@John Smith: Unfortunately it won’t be. there’ll be a tribunal lasting 15 years, no conclusions and everyone keeps their job. That’s the way it’s always been. No reason to think there’ll be a change
Anne Marie that is why O’Sullivan should be forced out now. The politicians involved will be resigned to the back benches in a few months but she could go on in her job for years.
@Anne Marie Devlin:
Fully agree, and if by some chance if there’s is a conclusion, Morris here”s a cheque and to those who caused the problem, fortunately their covered under legislation so they”ll get their full entitlement, index linked pension and golden handshake, and we wait until it all starts all over again.
I’m hopeful that the Tribunal will give Sergeant McCabe long awaited vindication and show Callinan and O’Sullivan for what they really are. That alone will be beneficial.
@Tony Daly: You can add Paul Williams to that list. What a liar, right up there with O’Sullivan and Callinan, he is embroiled in this, he should be investigated and behind bars, a proper grade A gutter journalist.
You maybe correct but I think they are enjoying having FG like a pig slowly cooking on a spit in fact I’m rather enjoying the party of law and order being dismantled
@Tony Daly: agreed but for all the money spent on tribunals in Ireland, I’d like to actually see some of them jailed and pay the price for their actions.
@GCLPhD: there hasn’t been silence from everyone else. It was brought up time and again in the dail by TDs.. especially considering the statue of limitations was running down..
‘Smear campaign by Senior Gardai’ ….only!?!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?! There has obviously been political interference also with state agencies & possibly media also
@RMcG: That’s because a Tribunal is largely about ascertaining the facts. Using this system you can compel people to provide information. You cannot have a prosecutorial Tribunal. Without knowing the facts what would they be prosecuting and whom? Prosecutions follow evidence. Based on the evidence you decide to prosecute someone or some group of someones assuming of course that you believe that the criminal law has actually been broken. To do so you must believe you can prove your case beyond any reasonable doubt. At the moment we have facts all over the place and contradictions in evidence. So a Tribunal is probably a necessary move if the terms of reference are not set so broadly that it carries on for the next ten years. A narrow and focused terms of reference and just get on with it. There will be high fives in the Law Library tonight.
Finally, prosecutions can only take place in the Criminal Courts and not before Tribunals.
@harry barry…if you are not outraged at this then you are a big part of the problem in this country which is too many idiots accept corruption by the political elite, some even defend it
@RMcG: Not only does it not have the power to prosecute, it taints any evidence presented to it by rendering it inadmissible in a proper criminal trial.
What powers will it have? Extremely limited…Kenny and Martin meeting this morning to cobble together some plan to keep the circus on the road..we are not going to get satisfaction from this public enquiry as it’s being controlled by a corrupt regime.
@Tony Daly: Any solicitor or barrister worth their salt will be queuing up to represent McCabe. Hes in for an a all expenses paid, huge payout, seven figures!! This wont be stopped here othetwise. If Government/commisioner attempt to do so, this will go to Europe!
@Tony Skillington: “What powers will it have? Extremely limited” It will have the same powers as the High Court? Is that not sufficient? But this is a fact finding exercise and not a criminal prosecution. And the Terms of Reference need to be narrowly construed and focused. So many Tribunals have run on for years because the Terms of Reference were too broad and changed once or more frequently during the course of the Tribunal. So focus on what we all want to know and keep it at that.
So now a public tribunal forestalls any how of a criminal investigation, protects NOS in her roll as commissioner and puts a block on any further media or commentary on this issue. See ye all in 5/6 yet as and another €40 million later.
While all the parties are getting on the bandwagon now, only for Mick Wallace and Claire Daly, Maurice McCabe would never have got a hearing. What a squalid incestuous cess pool of guards, press and politicians this country is.
Even at this stage the govt has been dragged kicking and screaming just to the point of acknowledging that there is a problem, when the dogs in the street know this for over 10 years !
It’s not a matter of this government (and believe me I have absolutely no time for FG). The public need to realise that it’s all a game of musical chairs in how this country is run, with the music supplied by an endless stream of soundbites attacking or defending this organisation, that policy, this institution, that minister, this TD, etc. Since this keeps happening and the responsible keep weaseling out of it all, what does that say about the Irish public……we are the real asses. At least the TD/Senator gombeens are committed full time to self-advancement and bringing about the kind of society, economy and environment they will prosper in. We don’t get into 2nd gear.
@David A. Murray: Spot on, at least half of the Irish public accept corruption are a normal and accepted part of being governed by the civil war parties. How else can you explain FF/FG still having 50% of the vote between them according to the latest polls. Shame on anybody who continues to Vote FF/FG, your grandchildren/great grandchildren will have to live with the consequences!
@David A. Murray: People use the term corruption too loosely on this site. So loosely it has become meaningless. Everything is not about corruption. A great deal is simply about the absence of values and ethics and organisations with cultures which are out of step with the times. Such an absence can lead to behavior which is not grounded in any moral vision or values. And such behavior is inevitably damaging to society. An Garda Siochána has become such an organisation and there is now a need for a new organisation to be created which focuses entirely on good policing aligned with good values and open communication. The national security function should be separated from the policing function and put in a separate agency along with military intelligence. The national security and policing mindsets are not good bed fellows.
@John R: corruption has a wide and political sense where legal, political and government powers are used for ulterior and dishonest purposes. It is not just about bribery.
Tony,John,
It really depends how you define corruption.
Corruption in Ireland is more about favours and who you know than cash. It is embedded in all our public services.
Who hasn’t heard a story about someone getting stopped after a few drinks, dropping the sargents name and getting off scott free. This is not only common but expected in rural ireland by those with the right contacts.
The pub the guards drink in being allowed break closing time laws.
Minor Crimes commited by someone from a “good family” going no further after a chat with the superintendant.
The problem in this country is everyone wants strict rules which are applied rigidly except to themselves.
Mick Wallace introducing some realism here. When you hear the litany of abuses of power within the system going back through the years it really is shocking.
@Tony Daly: I know Tony but knowing this shower as well as we do it’s not beyond the realms of possibility for Callinan/Shatter’s part to be excluded in the terms of reference. Fine Gael will claim that is a separate issue, when as you just pointed out it is not.
@Les Behan: It stated on Callinan’s watch and when the current Commissioner was his facilitator. Its all part of the same story of nearly 10 years of victimising a decent and noble fellow.
@Les Behan: The surest way to achieve nothing is to extend the Tribunal of Enquiry to anything and everything. Shatter has been investigated every which way and has largely been exonerated. Focus the Tribunal on what we really wish to know or you’ll end up with another 10 years investigation costing a €100 million.
@John R: Its a catch 22. Restrict the scope and the report is incomplete, don’t restrict the scope and the whole lot comes out. It will last 50 years. There should be no tribunal. Just don’t vote any more
It seems the Soc Dems motion due to be voted on this week forced the government to pull the finger out and agree to a public inquiry. My main concerns now is the lack of a criminal inquiry and the fact that whoever planned this against McCabe has been given far too much time to hide their tracks. An independent anti corruption agency is badly needed to protect future and current whistleblowers
@Kevin Higgins: I agree that it was the Social Democrats in combination with Sergeant McCabe which brought this about.
The opportunity for a criminal prosecution was lost a long time ago.
We certainly need a permanently sitting anti corruption agency. Until then, Sergeant McCabe is the best that we have but he needs a big legal team and they need to be paid as they go.
McCabe has had legal representation throughout this debacle. Unsure who is paying for it but if he decides to sue for damages we should all crowd fund that legal challenge.
@Kevin Higgins: The trouble kevin is that we will also have to crowd fund the damages via taxation. Soo peeed off with the entire system at this stage, can nobody tell paddy the real story.
Corruption runs this country & The media have been sitting on this for several months.. it would make you wonder what else has gone uninvestigated & unreported
Public enquiries on this country have proved to be useless as nobody ever held accountable . It’s a criminal enquiry that should be instigated and the Garda Commissioner removed
Tribunal? Another 100 million to the solicitors for something we already know. It’ll be finished in 10 years when no one remembers it anymore. Whole thing kicked in to touch and no one held accountable.
I realise that this tribunal will take a great deal of time to complete it’s work. but I have to wonder, what are the chances that the conclusions will be that mistakes were made, there were a number of errors, some systemic and procedural failures, but no evidence of actual wrongdoing by anyone! Followed by an undertaking and commitment that nothing like this will be allowed to happen ever again!
@B9xiRspG: 1937-1948 Fianna Fáil
1948-1951 Fine Gael
1951-1954 Fianna Fáil
1954-1957 Fine Gael
1957-1973 Fianna Fáil
1973-1977 Fine Gael
1977-1981 Fianna Fáil
1981-1982 Fine Gael
1982-Nov 1982 Fianna Fáil
1982-1987 Fine Gael
1987-1992 Fianna Fáil
1992-1997 Fine Gael
1997-2002 Fianna Fáil
2002-2007 Fianna Fáil
2007-2011 Fianna Fáil
2011-2016 Fine Gael
2016-DATE Fine Gael
This is what’s wrong with the country. Unless this changes nothing will.
Another tribunal, costing millions of tax payers money, some judge will decide there’s nothing untoward after happening, and if he finds it hakim quite sure his hands will be tied so noone will be held accountable for destroying this man and his families lives and reputation… Sgt McCabe and his family deserve better
@Tony Daly: It is all we will get if we don’t demand more. Accepting a tribunal is tantamount to accepting the rank corruption and dishonesty at the heart of our government, police force and state agencies. A tribunal is not acceptable. Criminal prosecution is in order.
a quote from history for Enda: “You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.”
@Tony Daly: A tribunal means that those who have engaged in malfeasance and slander will go unpunished, as any evidence they give at a tribunal is inadmissible in any subsequent criminal trial.
Can someone ask the government especially journalists, will they act different with this tribunal unlike Moriarty where we are still waiting for anything to happen .. the last thing the mc cabes need is DPP taking years on the findings of the tribunal and government being silent on the delay..
The heat’s been taken out of it. Enda Kenny hitting Gerry Adams for 6 with the first ball put the opposition on the back foot right from the word go.
A victory for the government…sadly.
Check your blood pressures and relax for the evening.
Why didn’t McCabe sue his accuser in the guards when the accusation was declared false. Why the state now. There is so much of this that does not add up.
@Heidi3: it was not revealed as to detail, source or specifics to Sergeant McCabe. He was the one kept in the dark. This made it so insidious and Kafkaesque.
None one wants a repetition of the character assassination attempt on the instructions of the Commissioner before the O’Higgins Commission. That was truly nasty and beneath contempt.
In an inquisitorial/ accusatorial process such as that of a Tribunal of Inqury, there is no presumption of innocence. It is fact finding, not adjudicative.
I just watched Vincent Browne’s monday night show. Mick Clifford (usually a top investigative journalist) said he believed the issue of the cabinet ministers/Taoiseach not issuing consistent statements about who knew what, when and from who………was a distraction from the core issue(s). Apparently a large number of viewers tweeted their agreement with Clifford. Here’s a scenario for you. You are a Garda/whistleblower who has a faked child sexual abuse accusation on Tulsa’s records. Tulsa is accountable to Zappone/The Cabinet/Kenny. The Garda are responsible to Fitzgerald/The Cabinet/Kenny. You (as this Garda) are clearly going to hope that the relevant ministers/Taoiseach are going to protect you when they are made aware of what is going on……or am I crazy? So if they can’t agree about who said what to who and when…..are they part of the conspiracy or are they incompetent and unfit to offer the agree whistle-blower protection you need? How do you feel as this Garda whistle-blower? This is just as important as any other aspect of what is going on……..what did the Government know and what did they do or fail to do.
@David A. Murray: You misconstrue the position I think. Tusla are only accountable to Minister Zappone in certain respects. They are an independent body in law and for good reason. Similar with AGS. Entirely independent in law but the Minister for Justice is the vehicle by which they are accountable to the Oireachtas in certain respects. But on a day to day basis both Tusla and AGS run themselves and so they should. There is no reason at all why Government would have known or been told anything about allegations of abuse by Sgt McCabe especially once the people in Tusla realised they were unfounded. Abuse allegations flow daily into Tusla and are dealt with accordingly. The problem here is organisational it seems to me. Everything is not the fault of a Minister. The least interesting thing is what Ministers knew. The key issue is how could things have possibly got this bad in AGS and what do we do? I honestly think we need to go beyond thought of reform and think far more radically. This is just the latest in a long line of shocking Garda controversies. Rather than focus on political personalities and conspiracy theories I think we need to focus on the more prosaic truth which actually is far more shocking and suggests a far more radical course of action is now necessary.
@John R: this goes beyond AGS. This extends to HSE and Tusla as well as certain persons in the media. This multifaceted scheme involved political influence and direction.
We have political policing in Ireland.
We have political health in Ireland.
TUSLA may be theoretically and legally independent but it needs funding and resources. That’s the political dimension.
This scandal did not stop and start with An Garda Siochana.
The political dimension is the most sinister and subtle.
Enda Kenny is making a great effort to protect the Commissioner.
@David A. Murray: The disagreement over who said what to who and when is part of a smokescreen. It is designed to confuse and dissuade the confused from taking any further interest in the story.
I noticed that on nine news there was one individual out of the lot featured who had a shred of empathy for McCabes and wasn’t just covering heir tracks – Claire Daly and they didn’t even give her a clip they just showed her shaking her head. Gov representatives were again unchallenged defending what has happened. When are people going to wake up?? This is a fascist state.
Why the surprise. One of the first Yards Commissioner s fought for Franco’s “Hispanic Supercaste” which set sail from Galway in November 1936 on board a German ship. On 19 February 1937 in their first action they fired on troops on their own side killing 13 and losing one of their company and then surprise surprise the Yards Commissioner s adjudant captain Gunning deserts the brigade stealing all the men’s wages and passports under his command. This is classic “Gunningism” within the force and is quite normal in fact it is tradition.Don’t know what all the fuss is about.
If electorate accepts a tribunal, they have been hoodwinked once again. A tribunal is a mechanism for getting evidence out in public so that it can rendered inadmissible in any future criminal trials. The Tribunals of Inquiry Acts ensure that a statement or admission made by a person before a Tribunal “shall not be admissible in evidence in any criminal proceedings against him” unless those proceedings are for an offence committed against the Tribunal.
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