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PRESIDENT HIGGINS HAS signed the Civil Registration Bill 2019 into law meaning some female same-sex couples can now have both parents named on their child’s birth certificate.
Parents who had a child via an Irish donor were previously only able to have the mother’s name mentioned on the birth certificate.
The amendment to the Civil Registration Act 2004 will now mean some same-sex parents have the option of either the terms ‘mother’ and ‘father’ on the certificate or to replace them with the term ‘parent’ instead where both can be named.
“Registration of particulars of ‘mother’ and ‘father’ will continue to be available. However, any parent may choose to register a birth as ‘Parent’ if they so wish,” it states.
However, legislation has yet to be introduced which would see other same-sex couples given the option to include both parents names on the birth certificate.
These include male same-sex couples, as well as female same-sex couples who had fertility treatments abroad and couples who used reciprocal IVF treatments.
Before now, when a married woman, who is separated from her husband, goes on to have a child with a new partner, her husband was presumed to have paternal rights under the law.
Now both parents in the female same-sex couples who had a child via an Irish donor will have parental rights.
The bill became law today on the fourth anniversary of the marriage referendum after passing the final stages in the Seanad last Wednesday.
On publication of the bill in February, Social protection minister Regina Doherty said: “I have met with and spoken to many affected by this issue and I am now very pleased to be able to bring these changes forward as a priority to ensure that they can be introduced as soon as possible.”
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And still nothing done about unmarried fathers having no rights to their kids while the mother has all the rights outside of Marraige
@Alan Brazil: It’s almost as if they are two separate issues, isn’t it.
@Richard: No Issue with gay people, just highlighting the fact
@Alan Brazil: anyone on the birth certificate should have no more or less rights than the other, I’m living with my partner and my boys but I brought my son for an operation few years ago while my partner stayed home with our other son who was only a newborn, the operation was cancelled because my partner wasn’t there to give consent, the worst part was being told she could have brought him on her own and that would have been fine they could have done the operation, all because we’re not married I had no rights in the hospital. Never felt as insignificant in my life as that morning
@Darren Mulligan: Jaysus thats an awful story ! Im an unmarried Dad but I would almost consider marrying the head wrecking wagon just to avoid that issue ever happening. I would have found it hard to stay calm if that happened to me.
@Darren Mulligan: I can relate as I’m adopted. I am actually insignificant! I can’t even have MY OWN birth certificate. Or MY OWN identity.
If the bill that Zappone wants to bring in is passed, it would mean the Adoption Authority of Ireland would ask my birth mother CAN I HAVE MY OWN birth certificate!?! Can an adult have their OWN birth certificate? Asking someone who signed away her legal rights to me in ’74, can I have her permission if I can have MY birth certificate.
Talk about feeling completely insignificant with this so-called “progressive” legislation. If anything it will be completely unnecessary, while being completely insulting!
@akaalison: I’m donor conceived by an anonymous donor- should be made illegal years ago but Ireland as usual fails to support children in any way. :/
@DarkSithLord23: but yet but the state inexplicably continues to make the same old mistakes. Suiting the voting adults, while ignoring the children who will one day, themselves be voting adults.
It’s not difficult…grant all Irish citizens all their basic, civil, equal and human rights and also all of us no matter our birth status, deserve our fundamental, statutory and Constitutional rights, because equality and truth is what is needed.
Has anybody asked children (or will they be asked in the future) whether they would like to be brought up by a father and mother ? Social engineering is not a good idea
@Virgil: It doesn’t matter, in the slightest, whether you’re brought up by a man and a woman, two women or two men. What matters is how you are brought up.
@Virgil: I think the most important thing for any child is to be brought up in a loving home. That has always come in many different shapes and sizes.
@Richard: exactly
@Olly Keegan: well said thank you!
@Virgil: by this argument nobody should be able to have children because we are unable to ask children before they are born what their preference for parents is
@Virgil: As a donor conceived person- part of the first generation of dc adults who are beginning to speak up, what we need is access to information. We need to know who our biological fathers are, who our siblings are. We are not litters of puppies created in a lab under a veil of secrecy. Yes having a good home helps but we have often been severed, by agreements to anonymity that we didn’t make, from our biological history- that includes medical records, aunts, grandmothers, siblings. Anonymous donation is unethical.
@Richard: You should look up the stats on fatherless children. It most definitely does matter.
Great news!
@Keith O’Reilly: Agreed
@Morgan: Disgusting article.
@Martin Scaldbag: The grammar usually is bad enough that you would be sick that someone is being paid to write it, however “disgusting” may be an exaggeration.
@Keith O’Reilly: As a donor conceived person, I can tell you that Ireland is behind the rest of the world in still allowing anonymous donors. We have no knowledge of our biological father, our siblings, our medical history…….
Before anyone argues that removing anonymity would reduce the number of donors, research in Australia has shown this to be untrue, and what’s more they are getting a more mature type of donor there now- men who aren’t immature kids looking for beer money but responsible adults, often with family already, who understand that they are creating children who might need to make contact with them in the future. Anonymous donation is unethical.
This is lunacy. The birth cert should only contain the biological mother and the biological father. If you remove one in favour of a same sex partner of the other then the child could and will miss out on important information should they have medical issues in the future.
@John Moynihan: What medical issues do you think are listed on a birth cert?
Same sex couples who use doner sperm already have all that medical information. In fact, a lot more than those who may not even know the parentage.
@Olly Keegan: Birth certs should be a genealogical record of the child. You don’t put adoptive or foster parents on a birth cert for good reason.
Just imagine for one moment that you were the product od a same sex household where both parents were on the birth cert.you live to a very old age outliving both your parents. You then get sick, very sick, a genetic type of illness. A genetic illness neither of your now deceased parents have. Wouldn’t you want to know the identity of your other biological parent? Just to see what you can do about trying to beat this illness.
Yes that’s hypothetical but very plausable too.
@John Moynihan: Yes, except on adoptive birth certs, the biological parents are NOT listed, so your point is invalid. Adopted children do not have any automatic knowledge of their parents biological history.
@John Moynihan: you’re assuming that hypothetical sick old person’s biological parent/s are still alive.
For whatever reason this seems to be open only to women, chances are one of the two women is the biological parent, as for the other genetic contributor; there’s plenty of women out there who don’t know who their baby daddy is or can’t contact him for whatever reason.
Also, until no if a married or separated woman had a child with someone other than her husband she would need a signed affidavit from said husband saying he wasn’t the father or else his name was going on the birth cert (wouldn’t take her word for it).
@John Moynihan: Birth Certs are a Certificate of the Birth, nothing more, nothing less.
As I said, same sex couples who use doner sperm already have all that medical information required.
Now, if you’re talking about a child from a one night stand, that’s different. But then again, both the people participating in the one night stand chose to do this without any consideration for medical information. Believe me, same sex couples definitely do not do this on a whim
@Olly Keegan: and a record of who the biological mother is and who the biological father is(if known). Why do lesbian couples get special treatment here? Says nothing about males or transgender just 2 women. Why is it that Adoption is good enough for everyone else?
@John Moynihan: adoption isn’t “good enough” for me as a gay man. But this is a great baby step in the direction of equality and love for all
@Olly Keegan: It’s not true that we have access to medical information. I am a donor conceived person. I don’t know who my biological father is, I don’t know if I have siblings. I don’t have a medical history. Ireland still allows fully anonymous donors which means that if the child goes looking for their father in the future, or their family, the door will often be slammed in their face, many are threatened with legal action. Men often don’t tell their family that they have donated sperm and when the dcp appears through dna testing or whatever, they often go to great lengths to shut down any chance the dcp might have of a relationship with grandparents, brothers and sisters. This is done, not by accident, but by an industry, purposely, putting the child into a situation that none of us asked to me in. It’s not enough to say ‘you must have been wanted’ or ‘you should be grateful to be alive’- you wouldn’t say that to an adopted person looking for their family, why do people feels they can say that to the donor conceived?
I’m all for same sex marriage, I’ve no problems with same sex couples adopting or using one of the females in a female same sex marriage in order to give birth but has anyone in charge actually looked at the definition of ‘parent’.
All of you out there are not my parents simply because you didn’t conceive me.
I can say all because I know that neither of my parents read or comment on the journal.
This current over the top PC land is only going to end in trouble.
Why can’t my dog or my favorite cow be registered as the parent if I decide that?
To answer my own question.
It starts with the fact that neither played a part in conception.
Call them step parents at best!
@Lion Giggs: Absolutely, If you did not either conceive or give birth to the baby you are not its parent. Plain and Simple
@M Stuart: adoption?
@Lion Giggs: I presume neither your cow nor dog raise the child?
A parent is someone who raises a child.
@M Stuart: I am adopted. Believe me, my parents are my parents, irrespective of how they got me. And the people who contributed to me genetically, certainly are not my parents
@Olly Keegan: Apologies Olly………..On that point you are 100% correct
@Olly Keegan:
Fair point Olly.
I’ll give you that and I’m glad you consider them parents.
I don’t want to come across as horrible here but there’s a difference between ‘parent’ the verb and ‘parent’ the noun.
Again
I really hope I’m not offending you here.
@Olly Keegan:
Check the definition in a dictionary.
Ps I have liked both your comments I just feel there’s a difference.
Remus and Romulus were brought up by wolves apparently ( no pun intended)
That doesn’t make the wolves their parents.
@Lion Giggs: if Olly now told you that both her adoptive parents were men would you be as apologetic and agreeing? If not, then your problem isn’t parenthood your problem is homophobia
@Lion Giggs: Definition of parent
be or act as a parent to (a child).
“all children are special to those who parent them”
synonyms: bring up, be the parent of, look after, take care of, rear, raise, nurture
“all children are special to those who parent them”
Nothing about conception.
@Lion Giggs: biological parent, foster parent, adoptive parent, step parent, lone parent, absentee parent, parent company. Notice how even biological parent needs the qualifier. The definition of parent [noun] does not include fertilisation or gestation.
@Lion Giggs: I am donor conceived. My parents never planned to tell me but I found out when I was about 30. My Dad was already dead at that time. He will always be my Dad- but he is not my biological father. I was conceived in South Africa in the 1970′s, which like Ireland still, allowed anonymous donors. I have been trying to find my biological family through dna 4th/5th cousins for years without success to the point where I have given up hope of ever knowing where I came from. This isn’t like a one night stand- I, and all the other children from anonymous donors- have been put in this situation by an industry that doesn’t consider how the child may feel about this. I sort of feel as though I was half-adopted. I will never love my Dad any less- but I also wanted to know where I come from, do I have brothers and sisters? Where do I fit into a family tree? Are there medical issues I should know about? Is my biological father still alive? It is very complex. We are the first generation of dc people now to be adults speaking out about donor anonymity and there is a general consensus among us that it is highly unethical.
@John Fitzpatrick: absolutely mate.
Same applies for gay male couples.
Only difference is men can’t naturally give birth.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
I’m a teacher of about 800 kids in Vietnam.
I only want the best for all of them.
My point is.
Regardless of gender.
A man and a man does not naturally produce a child.
A woman and a woman does not naturally produce a child.
So, if either of those situations takes on a child then what do we call people who naturally created a child?
Do we now have to call people ‘Natural parents’?
As opposed to parents.
How do we differentiate?
And don’t say we shouldn’t differentiate!
That just completely misunderstands the point.
I’ve no biological connection with the kids I teach.
I still parent them to an extent.
Not my Kids!
@Olly Keegan: biologically they certainly are. Science 101.
@Lion Giggs: You are not their parents. You are not their biological father. access to information about our biological parents matters. Donor conceived person.
Poor child
@joe: I am a donor conceived person. I have no problem with same sex couple or any other family set ups- but I do have a problem, as do most of us- with the use of anonymous sperm donors. Ireland is way behind in not making anonymous donations illegal- which is shameful because it has been well documented how disorientating it is for the child having no access to biological family. From my own perspective I can tell you that being deliberately put in this situation by the fertility industry is heart-breaking. I don’t know who my father is. I don’t know if I have siblings. I don’t have a family medical history.
No sorry, this is just wrong, only a man and a woman can create a child.
@Cork Truck Driver: so you wouldn’t object to a heterosexual couple using a surrogate or sperm donor to conceive availing of this option?
@Karen Wellington: My Dad was infertile and I was donor conceived in the 70′s. They had no intention of ever telling me. I found out by accident. It was anonymous. I have no idea who my father is, whether I have siblings, medical records etc etc etc. It’s kind of tough….
@DarkSithLord23: that doesn’t actually answer my question to Cork Truck Driver, but thanks for the input.
I’m sorry for your trouble, I agree that parts 2 & 3 of the Children and Family Relationships Act 2015 need to be implemented (should have been in place 3 years ago).
@Karen Wellington: I would not object to sperm or egg donations if the resultant child had the genetic parental information available to them, DarkSithLord23 is a perfect example as to why this information needs to be made available, just because the man who he was raised by is recognised as his father and he no doubt sees him as that but the same gentleman cannot help him with any paternal medical questions that may present themselves.
@Cork Truck Driver: if the provisions of parts 2 & 3 of the Children and Family Relationships Act were in place would you still disagree with two men or two women availing of this option?
@Karen Wellington: I haven’t even read the act and without having done so or knowing anything about it my stance remains the same (for now).
@Cork Truck Driver: uninformed?
@Cork Truck Driver: I’m a ‘she’ but yes, I would say, my dad will always be my Dad- but he is not my biological father and I would like to know who my biological father is, where I fit into the family tree, whether I have siblings, if there are any medical issues I should know about….being donor conceived is really difficult and the fertility industry doesn’t take any notice of what we, as the first generation of dc adults, have to say about it. Biology matters. The Irish Govt has failed to protect donor conceived children but continuing to allow anonymous donations in Ireland. It is unethical.
@DarkSithLord23: I wrote this. Most people will never be told that they are donor conceived. https://www.wearedonorconceived.com/personal-stories/i-am-not-your-secret/
@DarkSithLord23: I cant imagine how difficult it must be not knowing something as important as this. I hope you find your truth. Best of luck.
Genuine question, is the same applicable for two men in a same sex relationship? The headline only says women. If it is then it is horribly discriminatory.
@The Bob: It is only two women, and even then there are strict conditions around it. You are correct, it is discriminatory.
But so was Civil Partnerships initially. I suppose this can be a step in the right direction. Rome wasn’t built in a day!
@The Bob: As its not currently possible for same sex male couple to have given birth to the child there would be adoption procedures in place. In that case the woman who gave birth is not anonymous (like a sperm donor can be) in that there will be a medical record of the birth.
It’s not discriminatory so much as not applicable to a gay couple unless one has given birth to the child
@Ash Crowther: well I think it is discriminatory. In one case there are two women in a relationship, one of them is the biological parent, the other has no biological link as the other biological parent is a third party. In the next case there are two men in a relationship, one of them is the biological parent, the other has no biological link as the other biological parent is a third party. The difference between the two situations is just the gender of the parents in the relationship.
@The Bob:
When is the last time one of your male friends gave birth?
@The Bob: yep it’s the modern version of equality …. a complete minefield
It sounds like further changes were needed to allow this and also include a section for biological parents. No matter what way you look at it these are 2 separate facts.
@Craic_a_tower: As a donor conceived person, it is really important that the law is changed in ireland to ban anonymous donors. Through no choice of my own, I have a blank where my Father should be. My Dad is my Dad- but I don’t know who my biological father is or whether I have brothers or sisters, whether he has even told them that I might exist. The industry is all about the recipient parents with no thought given to the donor conceived child and our natural desire to know where we came from.
“Before now, when a married woman, who is separated from her husband, goes on to have a child with a new partner, her husband was presumed to have paternal rights under the law. “
I’m confused. Is this referring to a situation where a woman is pregnant by the ex husband or pregnant by another route but is only separated and not yet divorced?
@thephantomshit: if a separated (or just still married) woman has a child with someone other than her husband she will need a signed affidavit from the husband saying its not his child or else his name is going on the birth very regardless of who actually fathered the child
@Karen Wellington: cert, not very*
@thephantomshit: Irish law has a presumption of paternity in cases a married heterosexual couples regardless of whether they are living together or not.
So even though everyone involved may know that the husband is most definitely not the father they are automatically assumed to be.
@thephantomshit: I don’t know why they haven’t amended the presumption that the husband is the father , it must be in the constitution not just the law .
@Karen Wellington: not if the father gets a declaration of parentage from the court
I’d rather have the two people who raised me, feed me, drove me to whatever sports I did as a kid and stood and watched in all weathers, bought the school uniforms, was there for me when I was down and gave me a positive example of a person to be when I grow older on my birth very than one of them who did and some fella who best case scenario was a family friend so who was there anyways and worst case scenario potentially got a woman pregnant and bailed like a coward
@Jake Kelly: fantastically said
@Jake Kelly: obviously you’re bin the privileged position of always having know who and where you come from, unlike me and any other adopted person. I only finally found out my identity…my name aged 38, and that’s also when I found out about the serious medical conditions incl cancer that was in my biological family. I was 43 before finding out about the dementia my birth father has. Not to mention the parent and sibling relationships I never had and will never have because of not having my birth certificate due to being an adoptee. Due to being a second class citizen in Ireland of 2019. This move means these children will have the same facing them.
@Jake Kelly: you obviously say that from the privilege of knowing who your biological parents are. I was donr conceived in the 70′s. yes my Dad wil always be my Dad- but he is NOT my biological father and I have barely any chance of finding out who that was because of donor anonymity- it means I have no medical history, I don’t know if I have siblings….it sucks tbh
Another generation will severely criticise this as they try to locate their natural parents. Have we learned nothing?
@Condorcanqui: *biological parents.
@Condorcanqui: Yes. I am a donor conceived person. My donor was anonymous. It sucks.
@Karen Wellington: No. I’m happy with natural parents Karen. As in nature. But thanks anyway.
That will save a lot of quiet breakfasts
@Brian Fitzgerald:posted on the wrong forum by accident
@Brian Fitzgerald: actually a relavant comment, due to the clamour for making this change. Out of curiosity, is father (or sub-parent/non mother) mandatory now? And can the father (or claimed father) be included in the registration process or have we give down the route of natural mother, plus her current choice of secondary name as the permanent record for the child?
This bill only applies to female same-sex parents who conceived using an identifiable donor in an Irish fertility clinic.
It excludes families who went abroad, those who used anonymous or known-to-them donors, those who used Reciprocal IVF, and those who used at-home insemination.
@Obstreperous Repeal(ed) Harlot: And still no provisions for male same-sex parents.
@Obstreperous Repeal(ed) Harlot: how many males give birth do you think?
@Veronica: are you saying that female parents should be given more rights than male parents? Biological or otherwise?
@The Bob: The family law courts is this country show their contempt towards fathers actively seeking rights to their children but are frequently denied by the courts service who are empowered by the legislator, i.e the government who are elected by the same people who are before the courts in the first place.
@The Bob: how on earth is that what you got from what I said. I just said that babies are grown in and born of women. A male homosexual couple obviously lacks the requirement that at least one of them is female. I said nothing about fathers rights or men’s rights or whatever. Just a simple biology question to whoever I replied to. Jeez.
@Veronica: how dare you..I was born male but identify as female..I will bear children (or someone will do it for me)..and I will be recorded as both father and mother on the birth cert…
I guarantee that the people who have an issue with this would have no issue with a straight couple who used a sperm donor allowing the male in the relationship (who is not the biological father) putting his name on the birth cert. But when it’s two gay people all of a sudden it’s “THIS IS AN OUTRAGE THE BIRTH CERT SHOULD BE BIOLOGICAL PARENTS! STOP THE GAYS! PROTECT THE CHILDREN!”. Stop hiding your homophobia behind a mask of protecting children. Children are happy once they are loved.
@John Fitzpatrick: my thoughts exactly! It is that narrow mind that stops the evolution of society. I hope to have children one day and my partner and I would both be the fathers of that child. And if that child wanted to know where they came from I would tell them no problem. They would still know that their parents were the ones who raised them,loved them and nurtured them….not the ovary they came from!!
@Conor McDaid: exactly! And I have no doubt you’ll be wondeful, loving parents
@John Fitzpatrick: That’s not totally true. I was donor conceived. I loved my dad very much but my world is torn apart by not knowing who my biological father was. I probably have brothers and sisters that will never know I exist. Being loved isn’t enough.
@John Fitzpatrick: The biological parents of the child need to be put on the birth cert if known. The fact that I’m the case of two women or men being named is patently rediculous . Either that or you don’t understand biology. But hey it’s easier to label people as bigots then examine the issue and the implications. I’m outraged by the lack of rights and responsibilities for Father’s in general in the Irish legal system.
utter madness
So does this mean now that we can go down the path of legalising surrogacy and being able to have the two parents on the cert rather than the person who gave birth and the man only. Very unfair. Happy for this happening now but It’s not only gay people that struggle to have children you know.
@Terry: It’s not only the parents that struggle. I am an early donor conceived person and anonymity is a curse. I don’t know who my biological father is- don’t know if I have siblings or a medical history I need to worry about. it’s really crappy tbh.
All parents should be on the birth certificate follow by the biological parents. If was a doner if they wish to be put on they can if not would say doner unknown if was a one night stand an affair ect it be put as unknown. All people claiming to be the father should be required to have DNA test done. To many lifes mess up because the real father was denied.
Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre and Unprecedented.
Except there’s no conceivable way that one of them could be a real parent
Every child has a right to know and have a relationship with both their biological parents (unless they are in danger from it). And no adult has a right to take that from them. Regardless of wether you are in a same sex or straight relationship. Stop messing around with something that nature does perfectly well.
@Chris Martin: Ireland still allows anonymous sperm donation even though they have been fully informed about the detrimental effect on the produced children.
I don’t see what the problem is with this in the case of sperm donation, it’s better to have the 2 parents listed than only one, in the case where the father is known I think it would be better to have them listed instead (who knows maybe further down the line they want to know their families medical history) or the 2 women could be listed as the parents and the father mentioned in a separate category
How will the child find out who it’s father is?
@TamuMassif2019: I am on the verge of giving up looking for my biological family. I was donor conceived in South Africa in the 70′s. All anonymous, and dna is difficult to track because of endogamy. Ireland still allows anonymous donors which is unfathomable from a donor conceived child’s perspective.
I wrote this some time ago- actually it was put together from my comments on a thresd so it’s a bit jagged- but, anonymous spern/egg donation should be illegal in ireland-
https://www.wearedonorconceived.com/personal-stories/i-am-not-your-secret/
Future generations are going to be well scewed up..
Still nothing is done at all! They announce over email (!) last week that they are postponing the passing of this law to May 2020! A shame Ireland!
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Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
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