@Nick Allen: Some so called laws are stupid, made up by stupid people! If enough people want to live a certain way, then that should be their law.

@Nick Allen: Leo said yesterday that the Irish law doesn’t allow the Irish gov to take legal action against the banks, but if the situation affected him negatively, he’d change it quickly enough.

@Adrian:

I have no problem with People disagreeing with FG/FF or Leo or what has happened / is happening with the banks. However, you shouldn’t try and confuse these with what is happening in Spain. We simply cant recognize Catalonia as a country on the basis of a vote that what not conducted in a fair way or legal way

@Adrian: so if say a very large group of people want to set up a paedophile community where kids can be abused that should be law? I disagree.

@Nigel Healy: Its called Democracy Nigel.

@Nigel Healy: and if society is decent, and most people are decent, I would hope that a far larger group would be against such a community.

@Adrian: “if enough people want to live a certain way, then that should be their law” – Islamic State, the Khmer Rouge and pre civil war Southern States of the USA all wanted to live a certain way with their laws – doesn’t mean it was a good idea though!!

@Nick Allen: I personally don’t want to see Catalonia break away from Spain , but from what I know , they had the right to have a referendum .
The heavy handedness of the Spanish state in blocking the referendum has just caused more problems .

@Eugene Tyson: we’ve nobody to replacle them with !! Thats our bigger issue ..

Every second person I know doesen’t recognise FG as being representative of our State either…..

@Nick Allen:

Is international law really a thing? The US, UK, France etc tend to ignore it at their will which would suggest it doesn’t really exist except to persecute the weak, small countries whenever it suits.

We saw this with the western interpretation of “International Law” with Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia; an anti-Serb alliance.

@Niall Quinlan: We don’t even have democracy in Ireland. We technically have a gov (FG and Independents) that have a lot less than 50% support, but with this confidence and supply thing, effectively FF is in gov too. And FF don’t want to appear in gov because they want to represent themselves as the main opposition to get into gov in the next election, swap places with FG to continue their policies which are pretty much the same. Its a farce of a setup, any court with an ounce of common sense wouldn’t allow it, but its allowed because its favourable with the bigger undemocratic EU agenda.

@Niall Quinlan: Another silly contribution from silly commentators- its called democracy Niall we had an election. I don’t like FG either but they are the democratically elected government and as such recognised as such. Catalonia, a rich region of Spain want to defect because they do not want to share their wealth.. it would be akin to the pale voting to leave Ireland. As i’ve said here before – ireland is like Spain, in that at one time it was made up of Kingdoms – Henry VIII brought in the county systems – and Ireland has never been a united 32 county nation independent of the English Crown.

Catalonia has the same right to independence as Munster or Connacht. I do not accept the partition of our country today and i do not accept that the rich folks in catalonia get to leave Spain because their excess wealth is spread around the rest of the country… this all emanates from the financial crisis where the rest of the country were relying on the wealth of the catalan region. If we as Europeans allow the partition of richer colonies from poorer ones – what happens to teh poorer ones ?

@Adrian: We do have democracy – you snowflakes throw around comments like no democracy like confetti – have you actually seen a country without democracy – cop on you muppets.

Europe in its history has never been more accountable, its citizens have more rights, more wealth and more importantly is going through the greatest period of peace in the history of humanity. The next generation has no concept of cold war has forgotten the lessons of the 20th century and is completely hysterical over the smallest of incidents. This is camelot.

@Eugene Tyson: So our government doesn’t recognize something that does not exist.

The bast*rds.

@Adrian: If a group wants to live a different lifestyle, fair enough. Usually it’s a case of needing to impose that style on everyone else. Pretty sure the Puritans headed off to establish a settlement in Hollywood because their local churches weren’t strict enough. You can tell the better countries by whether those born there can access the web and media – or are even free to leave.

@Eugene Tyson: Why do our sheep keep switching from FG to FF at election time, two sides of the exact same coin.

@Old Gabby Johnson: No need for insults Old Gabby, that’s just silly. FG don’t “represent” Ireland effectively, and our democracy as you put it has resulted in either a FF or FG led govt since the inception of our state. That’s some choice for the good people of this country, democracy my arsenal.

@Niall Quinlan: The insult is when you suggest Ireland has no democracy – there are more political parties in this country then most. I have no idead why people vote the same parties – but they VOTE at least every five years.. we have referenda to change things we have councils, senate.. you insult by that ridiculous comment. Go to a country that does not vote, that locks up people for their religion, political outlook or colour of their skin. Even teh most throwaway comment like that leads to the more stupid among us like Adrian above to lose the run of themselves and next thing he’ll be burning his underwear on the steps of leinster house… less hyperbole i wager.

@Niall Quinlan: No prohibition from other people creating a party to compete in elections against FF/FG. The fact that FF/FG continue to persist as parties of government merely means that’s the will of the people. You don’t have a problem with FF/FG or FF/FG voters. You have a problem with those that don’t identify with either party but who have not organised into a new party and successfully made a case for their party and their policies. Take your beef up with them.

@Niall Quinlan: there are plenty of alternative to vote for. Labour, Soc Dems, Sinn Fein, AAA, PBP and independents.

If you feel there no viable alternative then I suggest you find some like minded people, form a political party and run for election.

It’s easy to hurl from the ditch and criticise FG and FF but unless you vote for an alternative or try and change things by getting involved in politics then moaning on this news site won’t bring about any change.

@Old Gabby Johnson: I never said we don’t have a democratic system in place, I merely suggested that FG & FF have misrepresented our state consistently since it’s inception and imo FG have no business getting involved in another country’s affairs when they can’t properly govern our own country. Silly eh…

@Niall Quinlan: The other parties are dire, that’s why people won’t vote for them

@Adrian: You are playing directly into the hands of sharia law supporters suggesting that when there is enough of them here we will be finished and our way of life too but that is the plan. I wonder how much of sharia law do you know and how it will affect you.

@Eugene Tyson: SF want an independent Catalonia but a United ireland. Contradiction ?

@Eugene Tyson: 1) the vote was illegal, 2) there is no clear indication that more than 50% of Catalans want independence 3) this is much different circumstances than Ireland and oh yeah 4)the vote was illegal….. I understand that Sinn Fein has no qualms about legality… is that the case for you also?!

@Nick Allen: Catalonia has more legitimacy than our poxy government. FG gives democracy a bad name

@Old Gabby Johnson: put a sock in it Gabby. Leo will lend you a pair.
You’re talking through your cakehole. Again.

@Harry Roberts: No, minority governments are a thing. But if you think you’d get better government from eighty odd independent headbangers playing local politics then off you go.

@Adrian: change the bloody law then Sock Man!

@Crash Bantercoot: Leo has no mandate. He is serving at the pleasure of FF.
The Republic of Catalonia is more legitimate than our poxy government who do not represent us .
The Dail is a very bad joke and it gives democracy a bad name.

@rory conway: No contradiction.

@Harry Roberts: Hyperbolic codswallop. He’s serving in s minority government as his party got the most votes. But as he doesn’t have a majority he needs support from another party to bring in legislation which is more or less as it should be to make sure the can put through legislation without approval of a majority of representatives.

@Eugene Tyson: Unfortunately for Ireland, the next govt has already been decided for us. It will be a FG/FF coalition. No matter what the voters want. A massive campaign by the likes of RTE, Sunday Indo, Indo news and Newstalk will deliver the result for them imho. Regardless.

@hallelujah:

Or maybe the electorate are a little too smart to elect SF / PBP which would just be a calamity of screw ups of a government

@jindublin:
” I understand that Sinn Fein has no qualms about legality… is that the case for you also?!”

Do you mean those that set up the first Dáil? Like Countess Markievicz?

@hallelujah: So it’s only democracy if who you want gets elected? The reason the centre keeps winning is because Irish people are sensible enough to avoid the far right or far left, not some media conspiracy.

@Niall Quinlan: they must be shinners cause they haven’t recognised any goverment since the treaty, only goverment they acknowledged was the nazis when the colluded with them immensely to get them into Ireland so they the shinners could be a viche goverment

Lets face it, we’ll never have an ‘ideal’ state because people keep repeating the same mistakes our previous generations made, its human nature. A new political party peopled by highly trained professionals with degrees in politics, who are honest, hard working ,capable of thinking outside the box and motivated only by patriotism is what we need.

@Nick Allen: Screw who exactly Nick? FF and FG have made a virtue out of lying to and screwing the ordinary people of the country for decades.
It’s time others got a chance to show they can do better.

@Frank Cauldhame: Where have you seen one of these rare species?

@Frank Cauldhame: sounds great but I’m not hopeful

@Jane et all: I know, I was dreaming….then I suddenly awoke smiling before reality kicked in :-)

@Crash Bantercoot: he has no mandate. Do you understand what a mandate is.

@Eugene Tyson: don’t talk shit.

@Eugene Tyson: Seriously ! Sinn Fein should make this statement from N.I. where they were in power but sadly, they do not have the competence to run a village never mind a province.

@birdseye: You need a history lesson Birdseye. Fine Gael/Blueshirts were the only Irish fascist group.

@Johnny Rotten: Would debate that with you of you weren’t anonymous

@Paul Maher: People choose to use fake names for various reasons – to avoid receiving spam to their proper accounts, to express opinions without their boss finding out, or perhaps if they have a high profile job (my friend is a priest and only his close friends know his pseudonym Facebook account). It doesn’t make their opinion any less valid. Trolls are a different matter and they’re usually pretty to spot.

@Martin Flood: Ha! *”pretty easy to spot”. Duh!

@Paul Maher: i don’t understand why anonymity is an issue for debate.

@Johnny Rotten: We did. On Easter Monday, 1916.

@Conor Sheehan: Ireland is not independent it is run by Europe. Waken up . When you come into Dublin Airport you are asking are you European or from another country.

@Johnny Rotten: it’s important to remember that Ireland is always a special case, no matter what the topic.

@Tír Eoghain Gael: Who’s this ‘we’? The small group of nationlists who had virtually no public support among the Irish public* when they made the declaration?

*not the support which nationalist history books have subsequently tried retconning into existence.

@Anthony Halpin: I thought it was America.

@Tír Eoghain Gael: I think Johnny was being sarcastic. Fine Gael and the Blueshirts under O’Duffy and with the blessings of the bishops went off to fight for Franco and his Fascists during the Spanish Civil War. The only place you could speak the Catalan language freely during the following years was inside the Camp Nou. Trying to wipe out the language and indeed the very identity of a pesky, rebellious group of natives who aren’t subordinate to your imperialist notions.. sound familiar?

@Patricia Cooney: I recommend that you read some books and do research on what the EU is and how it operates. Then you can have a proper informed opinion, instead of just repeating what most Journal commentators say.

@Martin Flood: it absolutely does make their opinions less valid. If you can’t put your own name to your opinion you’re a coward. If you’re not standing up for your own beliefs and opinions, you’re not worth while listening to. End of.

@chiara mullally: People get banned here for expressing their opinions, if its not in line with the journals views you’re out, hence the name changes, multiple accounts and anonymity. Many people, me included began life on the journal using my real name

@Nick Allen: we’ve jumped on the Colonial wagon again

@Charlie Melia: There is no

@Gerry Ryan deG: There is no proof of that fact. It is as factual as the Brexit campaign stating the NHS would save millions per week.

@Charlie Melia: The EU received nothing from our fisheries. Nothing.

As for Catalonia their Government held an illegal referendum and on the basis of a dodgy unsupervised vote, boycotted by many voters, unilaterally declared independence. The Catalans voted for the Spanish constitution by a large majority. A portion of the Catalans cannot unilaterally reject the provisions of that constitution.

@Nick Allen: not any more when uk has left.

@Nick Allen: the EU loans money to Ireland to buy more Volkswagens and Siemens appliances.

@John R: I’ve seen various calculations on what EU flagged fishing fleets have take from Irish waters and the most quoted one indicates it’s over 800 billion since we joined the EC. Some other estimates put it higher. We have received somewhere around 325 billion in the same time frame.

@Patrick J. O’Rourke: These are suffering from the same problem as the Brexit muppets raw numbers don’t tell the full story

We get a lot of intangibles that are harder to calculate like economic growth, the benefits of programs like the EuroHealth Card etc it’s not just a raw numbers game, the Brits are learning that the hard way don’t be stupid enough to fall for a trick even the Brits are now regretting falling for

As for “the EU”, “the EU” is not some seperate independent entity that tells us what to do the Eu is US we are the EU, all the European govts together, do you want the EU as a whole meddling in internal domestic constitutional matters? It’s one thing human rights like when the cops were attacking them but constitutional stuff the EU has to stay out of, do you want the other EU states voting in the Council to tell us how to vote in Abortion referendums? telling us what to do with northern Ireland? It’s not as black and white as you’re making it out to be

@Ryan Carroll: I was just clarifying a point of hard cash and the price of keeping our farmers happy. Its unrelated to any brexit thinking as brexit was not about hard cash but it was about people and their rapidly changing societies and their feeling of being powerless to halt the powers that were forcing that change. My own family live there and I could go on forever about the hell they have had to put up seeing their communities ruined with but that is a different subject and argument and not something the average Irish person has any experience of….yet. I’m sure Ireland will hang in with the EU until the foundations start shaking.

@Patrick J. O’Rourke: The main argument in Brexit was hard cash

They said we pay in too much and dont’ get much out, now they are learning that’s not true that there is synergy and intangible benefits to membership

EU did not ruin any communities quite the opposite, the Regional Development Fund has regenerated a lot of areas of the UK conservative govts never gave a crap about and won’t from now on and if you’re referring to immigration the EU does not force the UK to take Asians and Pakistanis and Indians which are the main bulk of immigrants, it also did not force them to avoid copying one of the few smart ideas we had in this area and integrating people instead of letting “this type only” ghettos develop the EU didn’t cause any of that their own poor governance did

The EU is breaking up crap has been around for years I remember hearing it as a kid in the early 2000s ffsake its’ not going to happen

@Charlie Melia: no it doesnt.

@AR Devine: The Six Counties of the north east of Ireland is not a nation.

@John Mulligan: I wish Mr Adams would focus a bit more on the Assemby talks. That is the key issue imho. That said, don’t worry, the next govt will be a FG/FF one. It has already been decided.

@John Mulligan: Idiot. Read about the history of Catalonia. Read your own history too.

@Seán Mac Brádaigh: Sayest thou in thine own opinion. Just about every ‘nation’ in existence is an artificial political construct. What exactly makes Austrians different from Germans? What do Scots Lowlanders have more in common with Highland Gaels than with English folk just south of the Tweed? Do you imagine people were using the same ‘not a nation’ argument against the USA when it first became a state?

@John Mulligan: wonder what’s sinn Fein stance would be if the unionists in northern Ireland used the same logic as the catalans in opposition to a United Ireland ?

@Seán Mac Brádaigh: What if NI declared itself a seperate/independant
country. Would we support that?

The Six Counties could be a Independant country and a member of the Commonwealt & the EU.

This would be a good compromise:
-QE2 as head of State like Australia to cater to Protestant & Orange Order
needs
-Republic of NI being able to make its own laws seperate from the House of Commons & the Cqtholic Church
-Maintain the soft North/South border post Brexit
-Compete equally with the 26 Counties particularly as a Tax Haven

After all, Eire was an independant country and a member of the Commonwealth for over 35 years from 1922. If that was good enough for us then , then why is it not good enough for the poor sods of the North?

What’s wrong with that, eh?

-

@hallelujah: Sinn Féin…as you well know have been focussed on that but are unfortunately dealing with numb nuts like yourself!

@Coles: Nice to know you have got past Hansel and Gretel and have reached the Gerry and Mary LuLu stage. Stick with it you will get to Reality eventually.

@Harry Whitehead: So you’re now claiming the Six Counties is a “nation”….and you expect people to take you seriously on Catalonia?

@Adrian: Is Catalonia not the prosperous part? It’s Spain that doesn’t want to lose them.

@Old Gabby Johnson: Ka-boom Gabby, fair play….

@Old Gabby Johnson: bang on gabby!

@Adrian: unqualified? Who then is qualified?

@Adrian: Anything Ireland pays is more than offset by trade benefits. And the single currency was a worthwhile idea notwithstanding some countries inability to manage their economies.

@Deborah Behan: Europe is dictership.

@Patricia Cooney: Nope. There are elections held for the European parlaiment. If you have issues then either offer yourself as a candidate or vote someone else. Or, you could move to ecuador, but I hear they only let in educated migrants.

@Adrian: net contributor…this is the exact crap they fell for in the UK, open your eyes a bit Adrian it’s not as simple as raw numbers it’s not just a matter of how much money we pay in v what we get out in regional aid we get loads of economic growth and other benefits that are hard to quantify just by being members of a free trade block with harmonised laws.

Catalonia has NOTHING to do wit hthe EU.
If we take the logic that being a net contributor in raw numbers means leaving things that would make for a very selfish world, the very opposite of the populism you claim to represent, once we are rich enough f—-k everyone else who is stil developing right? We deserved the regional aid but what they don’t?

and what’s your alternative to the EU? we live in a globalized world a process that’s a natural part of human social evolution, in such an interconnected world we will need super national institutions like the EU and they are good for another reason they push us towards cooperation and our common humanity and erode knuckle dragging nationalism that has always caused problems in the past. Whats the alternative come on? Its easy to moan about something when you were lucky enough to grow up knowing nothing else but the prosperity it generated compared to the bad old days of the 50s and 70s. Whats the alternative?

@Old Gabby Johnson: what books should he read? Yanis Varoufakis has a few if you want a leftist opinion from a guy who favors a united Europe (just not the current EU), and British MEP Daniel Hannon wrote a few for those who swing more to the right and prefer smaller less unified states. Both would agree though that the EU started, not as the modern fairytale tells us as a way to maintain European peace, but as a monopoly between large Central European industries (namely steel and coal firms). It’s growth later was no so much for the good of the entire European people but for the good of a few mandarins working in Brussels.

As for who contributes and who benefits, Germany, or more accurately, rich Europeans, many who are German, who own industries and banks, always do well since that is how the whole system works. They get to ship their wares to us tarriff-free, keeping German factories humming (although as for the common workers, I think American auto workers had a better deal back when the USA was selling stuff to everyone after the war). Since we share the same currency german factories have no fear that all their profits will drive the value of German marks up vs Irish pounds (or drachmas or whatever) thus making their products less desirable since all those profits in euros can be just neatly loaned back the peripheral EU nations to let them buy more German goods (and build all that infrastructure you mentioned). And hey, if the whole thing goes bust, they can just threaten the peripheral nations until those weaker governments agree to cover all that debt with public tax dollars and austerity measures. Currently the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and worst still, due to a flaw in how the Euro was set up, the poor are being expected to take the brunt of its flaws through austerity budgets that both blame them and punish them. If the EU was set up to prevent another Hitler, it’s doing a crappy job since it’s creating an environment similar to the one Hitler was able to take advantage of in the Weimar era of Germany.

European peace was created in 1945 and maintained not by the altruistic behaviour of European industrialists and elites but, although no one on the continent would ever admit it now, by the altruistic behaviour of America. Or more, accurately, the New Dealers like FDR and Truman, and whose work has been unraveling bit by bit by every president (republican and Democrat) starting with Nixon, and in fast forward since Reagan.

@Andy K: European MEPs can vote on legislation but can’t initiate it (sort of like how buyers of early Fords could buy whatever colour they wanted but Henry only gave the option of black). So actually, elected members of Ecuador’s National Assembly probably have more power in government than the EU’s MEPs.

@Ryan Carroll: your whole last paragraph about why we need the EU could have been used for either the Soviet Union or its Comecon. Or going back further, as an argument for Ireland to remain within the UK or at least the commonwealth. There are many reasons to seek a better arrangement than to just settle for the current system but I think for those who are alive and have witnessed the 2008 recession (and from one of the nations hardest done in by the EUs mishandling of it) and still think the EU and the euro are a good idea in its present form then they are more delusional than the most fanatic of brexiters.

@Adrian:
Catalonia wants to remain in the EU post independence ; so where do you get your notion of this being a start to the break-up of the EU.
While Brexit may mean the EU loosing England & Wales, the jury is still out on whether
the EU will loose Scotland & NI. Brexit threatens the unity of the UK more than it threatens the unity of the EU.

IMO, It is in the long term EU interest to have more small weak member nations than
fewer powerful ones like the current German/French club.

Scrolled past a two page long comment up there…
Made me wonder whatever happened Wally? Did he finally move to Cuba in the end?

@Andy K: maybe more people would have voted if they hadn’t been in fear of getting battered, widespread ballot tampering I think not unless you are referring to ballot boxes being forcibly removed by the police…….

@Sean Higgins: in an illegal election ? If event A hadn’t happened – neither would event B. Puigdemont caused this – he is no victim here. And I still think he looks like Gunther from Apres Match

@Sean Higgins: As it was not an official vote the usual security involved in voting was not there so anyone could have tampered with the votes. There were numerous reports of that happening.

@Sean Higgins: Nope, I believe he’s referring to the ballot papers that were printed at home…

@Andy K: our politicians put us in a hole because they were not allowed to tell the European bankers who made bad investments on loaning cash to Irish bankers and developers that they lost their bad investments (which is what happens when the rest of us normal people make bad investments). They were forced by the “terrible EU” to take those bad investment losses and dump them on the taxpayer.

@Andy K: what human Rights.irish is living on street . No hospital. The only the Europe give was the boys and their cronies. Is big jobs