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THE GAMING LANDSCAPE was vastly different in 2005 than it is now.
The Playstation 2 had built upon the great success of its predecessor, gaining an iron-like grip on the market, Microsoft had launched its successor to the original Xbox, which would later signal a shift in dynamics and Nintendo couldn’t convince the world that the Gamecube was anything but a kiddies device.
Yet for Irish people, that year was significant as it saw the first release of a GAA console game. Developed by the Australian studio IR Gurus (which later became Transmission Games before folding in 2009), it’s probably fair to say that the memories surrounding Gaelic Games: Football (and its 2007 sequel, Football 2 and Hurling) were less than positive.
Yet the story behind its development and release was anything but straightforward. To understand exactly how it came to be, you have to go back to 1998, when the idea was first put forward.
Back in 1998, the GAA started exploring the idea of releasing a Gaelic Football game on the major consoles at the time. Originally, it was an Irish development company, Pooka Games, who first held the licence to develop a GAA game between 1998 to 2003. However, it failed to get past the funding stages.
Dermot Power, who was then the commercial and marketing director for the GAA, recalls the search for a development team once the deal with Pooka Games fell through. He has been retired from his position for three years now.
Dermot Power: The problem was the cost of [developing it from scratch] was horrific and the limited scale of the Irish market. Pooka Games were the first ones we talked to before we ever went abroad. When that fell through, we didn’t give up which tells you how long we were at it, but the cost of developing this from scratch was horrific.
We thought we would get a small Irish company to do it, but we realised very quickly that it wouldn’t be fair to saddle somebody with that knowing they were going to have financial problems with it.
After the license with Pooka Games expired, the GAA started looking further afield. It came close to striking a deal with a UK developer, but that deal fell through after it was acquired.
After that, the idea to look at the Australian Football League was suggested, which is when IR Gurus, who developed the official AFL games from 2003 to 2007, appeared on its radar.
Both Power and Feargal Mac Giolla, currently the GAA’s head of Media Relations who was the Assocation’s Press Officer at the time, recall the reasons why the partnership made sense.
Dermot Power: Then we came up with the idea to look for someone who done an Australian game. If they had done it for the Aussie rules, then they might be able to adapt it for GAA and that’s who we got to do it in the end.
So that was the key. The fact that they could produce it without the investment that other companies would have required because they had already invested in the engine for the Aussie rules games.
Feargal Mac Giolla: It would be very hard and very costly to produce the movement of GAA players, the actual physical movement, but the movement of Gaelic footballers were pretty much identical to those Australian rules footballers, so all of a sudden you had the mechanics in place once the AFL game was produced… allowing a GAA game to happen.
With Sony Computer Entertainment Ireland acting as the lynchpin between the two parties, an agreement was reached in 2003 for IR Gurus to develop the first Gaelic Football game exclusively for the Playstation 2. IR Gurus had released AFL Live 2003 and 2004 so had experience in the field.
Because it was for a niche market, the focus wasn’t going to be on generating a profit, but to help further promote the GAA.
Dermot Power: This was never going to be a huge money spinner for us. We weren’t trying to skew anybody in terms of getting huge licence fees or anything like that. For us, it was a marketing ploy that we would be able to get our games on what we thought was a good platform.
I think we’re very conscious of seeing kids, your own kids and people like that, playing the FIFA games and obviously it was something we wanted to get GAA to do as well, if we could do it at all.
Once the deal was announced in late-2003, IR Gurus begun development on the first game for release in November 2005. If the game was successful, it would look at developing a Hurling game as well, one that would eventually be released alongside the second Gaelic Football game in November 2007.
At the time, IR Gurus was a relatively small team – roughly ten to fifteen developers worked there – and was known for both its work on AFL games and equestrian. The small size meant that splitting up the team to work on different games wasn’t a possibility.
Justin Halliday, who worked on the second Gaelic Football and Hurling games, recalled the development process for the 2007 release.
Justin Halliday: In 2006, we got this contract from Sony which was a continuation of the AFL 2005 [which Gaelic Games: Football was based on], but was basically doing AFL 2007, and then Gaelic Football and then Hurling and it was these three projects all together. The actual investment wasn’t huge… in the end, we ended up with a $900,000-$950,000 AUS budget [€560,000 - €600,000] for those three games
That game [AFL 2005] was effectively rushed in time for the final season that year because they were running behind on the development and everything was crunched at the end to get it out. Frankly, the game wasn’t great.
So in 2007, because we didn’t have a great deal of money, we couldn’t go back and redo a lot of stuff so it was a case of taking the engine, re-optimising it so the frame rate was good on the PS2 and then making a bunch of gameplay tweaks to improve the gameplay.
While there are similarities between Aussie Rules and Gaelic Football, dealing with Hurling was an entirely new prospect for the developers. Of the three games, the order of development was AFL, then Gaelic Football, and then Hurling last since it was the most complex of the three.
Justin Halliday: We didn’t have a lot of money and then at the same time, gearing up to do a Gaelic Football game and a Hurling game. The football game was ok because we had the assets from the original game so we had all the motion captured animations.
We hadn’t done a Hurling game before so we had to go out and do a bunch of mocap for Hurling. We had to find a group of Irish lads here in Melbourne who were enthusiastic, take them down to the motion capture studio and you know, put them through their paces.
There’s so many similarities which allowed us to do the two games but at the same time, they’re also vastly different. How the ball is handled, the way the ball moves, many of the intricacies of the rules were different.
That was good for us as it allowed us to do the games but we still had to go and make these three different games ultimately. An AFL game, a Gaelic Football game and a Hurling game. all using the same engine. So swapping out rules, swapping out animations, making the controls work and making all of the things work.
The first two, we knew were pretty straightforward and progressively, we put people onto Hurling which we knew was going to need the most attention because it was going to be the most difficult of them.
That viewpoint was also shared by Thuyen Nguyen, who was then a game designer with IR Gurus.
It wasn’t the case that they were not familiar with the rules, but with the culture as well, meaning Nguyen would regularly email the GAA about certain aspects like the new Championship format, and rely on videotapes and DVDs to bring themselves up to speed.
Thuyen Nguyen: Hurling was brand new. Most of the team never seen a Hurling game before and some of the team were involved with the previous Gaelic Football game. We were very unfamiliar with both sports and the timeline and the lack of resources didn’t help us.
I think that particular year, at least for Hurling, they changed the way the championship worked. This was the first time I had seen Gaelic Football or Hurling so I spent a lot of time watching DVDs and getting up to speed as quickly as possible but I do remember sending emails to the GAA.
I’d fire emails to him every week or so just to get him to explain the rules to me, not so much the physical rules of the game, but the tournament and how it was structured and how regulation worked… back then, the internet wasn’t great so there wasn’t a lot of sites or particular things I could look up.
Justin Halliday: We would have had video tapes of a bunch of matches that we would have to go off. We had some familiarity with Gaelic Football because we played the international rules against you guys… I was totally unfamiliar with [Hurling].
Thuyen Nguyen: It was just really hard to understand what bits you could leave out of it to make the game and still make it play like the real thing, but also make it fun as well. That requires a lot of intimate knowledge of the sport and not quite a hardcore fan but just being around it, living in the same country so it was a difficult challenge in many respects.
All I do know [about the original] is it was based on an AFL game, I think it was based on AFL 2005 and that was considered by everybody involved to be a horrible experience, which was why we kinda started from scratch with AFL 2006 and Gaelic Games: Football 2.
Not having an intimate knowledge of the two sports wasn’t the only problem faced.
Other issues like the rocky relationship the GAA’s had with the Gaelic Players Association meant they had to avoid using official player names and images. A workaround was quickly thought up of.
Thuyen Nguyen: What I did was got the top 100 Irish surnames and I put them into a spreadsheet and I put random letters and mixed it all up and that produced the teams. In that randomisation, it happened to hit a couple of real player names so they would say: “Change this because that’s a real person”, change the first letter or whatever.
What I also did was I put all of the developers surnames into the list. Obviously, my surname isn’t Irish and I do remember it was called out, and asking us to remove my surname from the list.
Justin Halliday: It was a shame and that was the strange part about Gaelic – well, strange to us. Our footballers are all professional and then there was this situation where your footballers were amateurs and I’m not sure whether that’s changed or not.
While the actual development was a painful process, the authenticity of the games was vital to the GAA.
Getting the heritage and the feel of it right was important and getting the details right and ensuring the presentation was up to scratch. Part of that was the commentary, which was done by Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh.
Feargal Mac Giolla: That [the commentary] was a huge task because there were a couple of phrases associated with every county. We had to help them with those phrases so, for example, when Kerry got a score, Mícheál might come on the game and say: “That was a great score for the kingdom there,” so we had to sift through all of that make sure it was accurate.
It was this level of detail that we had to do, we had to proof all of the commentary to make sure it all made sense and more importantly, there were likely to be things that Mícheál or any other commentator would say.
This was hugely important because we knew the game would end up under the microscope when it came out because in this country, you can’t do anything relating to the GAA without it ending up under the microscope and the partnership with Sony and the GAA bringing out something like this was always going to be massive.
So we were nervous in terms of making sure that this wouldn’t lead to any reputational damage for the association or that people wouldn’t say: “Look at the GAA just doing something commercially there and then half arsed doing it” so there was a little bit of pressure there.
Justin Halliday: We just really take it as read. We give a script and they give us back a bunch of sound files and it was so unique, we’ll just put this in and assume we’re right. That was always fun.
This article was originally published on 21 February 2015. Read Part 2 here.
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While this is indeed a shocking set of revelations,I still am not shaken from my ongoing outrage at the lenient sentences handed down by our Judiciary, to some of the most violent of repeat offenders.
Often the Gardai put in hours and hours of painstaking work to bring an offender to trial, only to see that person walking the streets at the whim of a judge.
But that is a separate point and avoids what happened in this case. The decision by An Garda Siochan not to arrest and to detain an extremely violent and repeat criminal enabled that criminal to murder a young woman Sylvia Roche Kelly in Limerick.
This also happened in the case of Michael Creighton in Mullingar murdered because no attempt was made to execute a District Court bench warrant.
Yes, judicial sentencing and bail policy is defective but so also is intentional Garda inaction. We must not always seek to absolve An Garda Siochana of all blame and responsibility. It is part of the serious problem we have with law enforcement in Ireland.
We can arrest poor and elderly women for non payment of TV licence fees but we often overlook violent and dangerous offenders.
If there were proper sentences handed down, perhaps the Gardai might be a bit more motivated to do their jobs properly?
There can be no justification for An Garda Siochana downing tools in the case of a violent offender on a rampage. At the very least An Garda Siochan have a duty to protect the public to the best of their ability. If they don’t feel motivated to do that, they are failing in their basic duties. Remember, Sylvia Roche Kelly was murdered. That’s the price if An Garda Siochana can’t be bothered.
In fairness, An Garda Siochana show a very high level of motivation and even positive enthusiasm for arresting elderly women for no payment of TV fines. No problem with motivation on these offences.
Peter,
I have to take issue with your ‘facts’.
An Garda Siochana DO NOT arrest people for TV licences. That is a matter that is purely dealt with by summons. The television licence fee & summons is collected/issued by An Post on behalf of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, who has responsibility for broadcasting policy in Ireland.
I get what you’re trying to do which is draw into the open the two extremes of the ‘Justice’ system in Ireland. But please do it by using facts and not clearly making things up.
Also, no elderly people are arrested for TV licenses. Pensioners have free licenses. Can everyone stop this rubbish about them in every story? It detracts from the topic.
I made nothing up. The Department of CMNR is the prosecutorial authority, the District Court is the sentences but the enforcer is An Garda Siochana which prioritises such arrest and imprisonment. It is odd that there is such a willingness to arrest and detain TV licence defaulters but a widespread failure to enforce District Court bench arrest warrants. I am addressing the sharp end of law enforcement and you are intentionally obfuscating the point.
Peter,
Your wrong. I can guarantee you first hand, the Gardai do not arrest anyone for tv licences. There is no power of arrest for tv licences. Period. You can only be summonsed. And that summons is done by An Post and TV licence inspectors. Absolutely nothing to do with Gardai. Nothing. Not even a tiny bit.
You’re scaremongering and blatantly lying now.
The summons leads to a Court hearing. The Court hearing leads to a conviction. The District Justice imposes a prison sentence and An Garda Siochana arrest the defendant and bring the defendant to Prison.
I find it interesting that you make a accusation of blatant lying. That accusation is ad home em and is an example of deliberate obfuscation.
The Guerin Report will lead to a full statutory inquiry and no longer will these s deals of Garda corruption and incompetence be concealed.
In Britain the barbaric system of imprisonment for non payment of TV licence fees is being abolished and perhaps some day we will follow that example.
If you are found guilty in a criminal court and a custodial sentence is imposed then the prison service take custody of you. Nothing to do with the Gardai.
In not trying to have a go at you but you really are wrong. The statutory and constitutional role of the Gardai is to investigate and prevent crime. The Gardai do not have anything to do with the prison service.
As a quick breakdown of how the prosecution side of the legal system works:
Gardai investigate an allegation of a crime and gather evidence. If the matter is serious then a file goes to the…
DPP, who act as independent oversight & evaluate the evidence (weight of the evidence/legal procedures carried out correctly/weigh if it’s in the public interest to charge etc). The DPP then direct a charge(s) to be brought against the person. Which leads to the CPS…
The CPS, or Chief State Solicitor actually prosecute the case (minor cases are prosecuted by Gardai themselves). The CPS carry out the legal arguments in court and make the case for the state. If you’re found guilty then it’s the IPS…
The Irish prison service (IPS) are in the courts and they take the person into custody as soon as the judge finds them guilty and imposes a prison sentence then and there (judges may well find guilty and put the matter back for another time for sentencing).
In sorry Peter, but you are clearly wrong about Gardai arresting people for tv licences. THEY CANT DO IT. and the Gardai have no say in prison matters.
Similarly, you cannot receive a summons to go to court, then go to court, be found guilty and then arrested.
That’s not constitutional. You cannot be arrested for something that you’re guilty of. Maybe you didn’t mean to type those words, but that’s how it reads in your comment.
So please, have a go at the Gardai for what they’ve done wrong. And they have done wrong. But you need to stope writing things that are blatantly wrong, and you need to stop writing on things that you clearly do not know enough about and are making things up.
“Detain” would be a better word than “arrest” because arrest has a legal meaning and an ordinary meaning. If that is the entirety of your objection, we are in agreement. Make all involved accountable, including An Garda Siochana who failed so abysmally and egregiously.
The point is that Garda failures left the way open for a woman to be murdered by a violent offender with form.
I suspect that Peter is a little fuzzy about the way it works. I am a retired Garda sergeant. If offenders are convicted in court and a monetary fine is imposed – as is always the case with TV licence convictions and they fail to pay it after some months the court issues a penal warrant directing the Gardai to collect the money and if the offender fails to pay to arrest that person and bring him/her to a prison designated in the penal warrant. Gardai are legally bound to arrest people who fail to pay penal warrants. This is not however a choice made by Gardai – the court penal warrant directs the Gardai to arrest the offender if he/she does not pay the penal warrant. So it is wrong to be blaming Gardai since they have no discretion in the matter and are only acting on a legally issued court penal warrant.
I can’t believe this. Top to bottom this is just incredible!
Death penalty for psychos like this fella, streets would be a bit safer, have no trust in the any part of the system anymore!
Gary. My thoughts exactly. Growing up in ballymun, my father and mother also told me to respect the guards. How can ye respect the uper echelons when the poor rank and file are subjected to this
In this case the streets would have been safer had the Gardai done their job.
The sad reality is there are deficiencies across the judicial system.
There have been cases where gardai have done a good investigative job, brought dangerous criminal to Court and the person gets bail / lenient sentence. Guess what the crim commits more serious crime……
There was a particular high profile murder in galway about 10 years ago. The murderer had previous convictions and recent court appearances. The gardai did their best but judge have him bail. A couple of months later. …..
Inaccurate. Murder and violence rates are higher in places with the death penalty.
Death penalty is now the answer.
Death penalty is not the answer.
The death penalty is never the answer. As a society we then condone the intentional killing of a person and become mass murderers. An eye for an eye is not the correct logic.
I disagree fergal , keeping a murderer caged for life is wrong for various reasons .. The main reason is in this soft legal system he will be eventually freed usually after 14 years . .. Which is a major insult to the victims family. Also on that point it’s only a matter of time before anyone doing life will be entitled to a release date , that’s an insult to all law abiding citizens. So while the victim is 6 feet under rotting , life cut short , the murderer can get on with he’s life . Also keeping a murderer locked up for life costs the taxpayer a fortune .. Roughly 90k every year , it’s cheaper just to kill him. Lifers are entitled to a tesco or Supervalu account , more visits and phone calls .. So IPS are actually awarding them for doing life .
Ill probably get red thumbed to hell for this, but I’d like to point out that a detective sergeant informed a court that McGrath would likely commit more offences. It doesn’t matter that the court knew about previous bail, the court should not have granted bail to a person who attempted to take a child. It doesn’t matter if it was McGraths very first time in court or his 30th.
Why is no one looking into the Judges role? Yes the Gardai did not do a proper job, that needs to be looked at. But no one is going to ask why the judge granted bail!
There were clearly judicial defects of a serious nature but An Garda Siochana failed to put the full facts of all three serious crimes to the Court. If you read the Guerin Report, you will see how this episode stinks to high heaven. By all mean blame the Judge but blame also An Garda Siochana which failed to disclose the full gravity of all three serious and violent crimes to the Court.
We cannot continue to blame all other aspects of law enforcement in Ireland and seek to exculpate An Garda Siochan of wrongdoing, whether through laziness or due to the possible connection of Jerry McGrath with a member of the force.
The heartening side is this. It is a current member of the Force and a former member of the Force who brought to light these appalling allegations which will now be fully investigated. Although other members if the Force have closed ranks against Sergeant McCabe and former Garda Wilson, there will now be a full statutory inquiry and full exposure. This is good and positive.
No occupation or profession should be immune to criticism, especially not a very powerful Garda Force which has the capacity to do immense harm if not tightly regulated.
Correct. The Gardai failed in this case (and an inquiry is likely to reveal others).
But it is wrong to point at the Gardai and say ‘all will be ok once an inquiry is done’. Or to just shout ‘abuse & incompetence’ without sawing that the Gardai were one cog in this wheel that led to Sylvia’s death. That judge was just as responsible for letting McGrath out as was the Gardai failing to bring the other matters to the courts attention.
My issue is yet once again here we have the Gardai with their head on the block, but those just as responsible in the judiciary are walking away without anyone even whimpering that they too did massively wrong.
What is the point in trying to make things right if we aren’t going to make ALL the system right. All we will have done is just moved the issue under a new rug. That’s not accountability, and that’s not serving the people of Ireland.
When An Garda Siochana treat violent crime with the priority and importance it deserves, there will be a massive improvement.
Fortunately, Judicial sentencing policy is improving and reflecting the true gravity of violent crime.
The crucial factor is that An Garda Siochana learn the importance of putting the full facts before the judiciary so that they make fully informed bail decisions.
Violent crime must take priority. An Garda Siochan are there to protect the public against violent crime and that makes the early arrest and detention of violent offenders critically important. Station bail is often abused, as in this tragic case of Sylvia Roche-Kelly. My heart goes out to her family.
Of course I am appalled at the circumstances that led to the murder of Ms Kelly and agree that the Gardai have questions that need answering.
My opinion (as a retired Garda Sergeant) is that there was/is a very unhealthy culture in the Gardai of ‘don’t rock the boat’. Many Superintendents and Chief Superintendents rate a sergeants ability or competence on their capacity to avoid controversy or at least to deal with it themselves and not be bothering them about it. I often despaired at Superintendents and chief superintendents attitude to problem issues and especially problem Gardai. Very often the issue was simply thrown back in my face for me to deal with or I was opposed outright and sometimes undermined deliberately. Top local Garda management want the quite life and are very adverse to making the hard decisions. There is widespread fear among them over the GRA and some problem Gardai are just let be rather than being taken on. .
And this is why Sgt McCabe was vilified by his colleagues and superiors. Truly a damning indictment of our force and country.
That is the significant point. The revel of retaliation against and hatred for Sergeant McCabe indicates very badly skewed values. Some members of the force would gladly “disappear” Sergeant McCabe if they could do so safely.
These are the facts ,
But how many heads are going to roll ????.
Interesting times ahead…
The Sh*t is going to fan…
No more cover ups please…
Going to start selling these!
Is it incompetence and laziness or just pure corruption I wonder. Maybe a mix of all..
Horrific mess. It would be funny if it wasn’t so deadly serious. When I see things like that, the first thing I think of is who is related to whom? Who is best buds with whom? Such catastrophic failure doesn’t happen in a vaccuum.
Exactly what I thought about this case.
Is there any more proof needed about what a joke our country has become regarding how we deal with lowlife thugs?! Law abiding people in this country need protection but are being let down.Punishment to fit the crime.
you can be put in jail for no t.v licence.or a motering offence..however do a real offence.sure “thats grand workaway there “
I am absolutely fuming. I can only imagine how that poor girls family are feeling – not to mention the poor child, the taxi driver and their families. Sylvia Roche – Kelly’s death wouldn’t have happened had these judges been so incompetent to let this dangerous man have bail. It’s just so infuriating and upsetting that this happened so needlessly. For such a small country It’s absolutely riddled with corruption. I wonder how many more similar stories we are going to hear in coming weeks?
Niamh, the violent attacker, Jerry McGrath, was let out on bail because his series of three other violent crimes were not communicated to the Judge. a series of violent attacks was ignored by An Garda Siochana. In this case An Garda Siochana was at fault. The Judge was not informed of all the facts. Bail policy needs to be reformed but here the series of “mistakes” was the fault of An Garda Siochana which seemed intent on ignoring complaints about McGrath. It’s described in the Report. It is truly shocking and appalling. Thank goodness there will now be a full statutory inquiry. Accountability may prevent this happening again.
I just think this country has corruption running through it. For me, both are at fault. If I was a judge and heard one of the crimes that he had committed he would have been locked up for a period of time to ensure that he wouldn’t do it again and a psychiatric evaluation would have been ordered because for me to attack a woman intentionally or otherwise for that matter is not right let alone a young child and maybe he could have received psychiatric help to deal with his issues upon his release so that he wouldn’t attack again. Stricter laws need to be enforced without a doubt so that these things don’t happen.
Our criminal justice system, including some, but far from all members of An Garda Siochana, have insufficient concern about the victims of violent crime. Trivial matters are prioritised and the really serious crimes receive insufficient attention.
Totally agree!!
Peter, I agree with you that the previous incidents involving McGrath were not put to the court. There is clearly a series of questions that need to be asked over that. I’m not trying to detract from the issue of the Gardai, but McGrath up on a charge sheet before a court for attempting to take a 5 year old shouldn’t need his previous incidents to come up. That one single charge sheet is absolutely enough for a judge to put him in custody.
Like I said, we need to establish the Garda side, but there’s no reason apart from an incompetent judge that allowed McGrath out on bail.
The facts concerning the abduction were not put to the Court and the other two offences were not out to the Court. The Judge may or may not have been incompetent but the fact remains the two very serious and violent offences were not informed to the Court and it seems that another possible , the suspected sexual assault offence on the bus was not put to the Court.
The temptation here is that, due to the immense and deserved popularity of An Garda Siochana, to seek to avoid placing any blame or responsibility with An Garda Siochan.
Sergeant McCabe is to be commended for exposing this litany of Garda disasters and bringing this out into public view. The family of Sylvia Roche Kelly and the victim tax driver were making no progress until all of this was exposed. Sergeant MCCabe is a credit to a proud Force which has been badly tarnished by the neglect and failure of duty of many other members of the Force.
We had Donegal, then Louth and we now have Cavan. What else will emerge as a statutory Commission of Investigation proceeds with its inquiry?
It clearly states in the article above that a detective sergeant in Tipperary gave evidence to the court that he believed McGrath would commit more and more serious offences but that the judge did hold the detective sergeant in enough seniority and so the judge granted bail.
Stop trying to avoid my point.
The Gardai failed to bring the other matters before the court. The judge decided the belief of a detective sergeant was effectively worthless. The judge granted the bail against the wishes of the Gardai.
The judge allowed McGrath out, and then went on the commit murder.
If you ask me, the judiciary are in the same boat as the Gardai. But no one is going to ask that question, and as you’ve also repeatedly done, tried to deflect attention away for the judges.
You conveniently ignore the concealment of the direction of the DPP from the judge, you ignore the concealment of the Tipperary offences, you misled in a previous reply that the matter of the child abduction was put before the court, when it was not, and you conveniently ignore that the accused was released on station bail.
Clearly you have a vested interest interested in misrepresenting the actual position.
I note how defensive you are of An Garda Siochana.
Thankfully, we have the courage of Sergeant McCabe and ex Garda Wilson to thank.
No more concealment and evasion. Let the facts emerge and let accountability apply to all.
It is a shocking disgrace that an extremely violent and life threatening attach was treated as mere assault and not assault occasioning bodily harm.
An Garda Siochana are the first point of contact in crime cases and if they are incompetent or negligent or worse, the rest of the system of law enforcement is ineffective and even impotent.
On a positive note Sergeant McCabe has brought out these appalling facts into the public domain, the obstructers of a full investigation are out of the way and we can look forward to accountability and reform.
There is nothing been conveniently ignored on my part.
I don’t know how to make this more clear to you:
• The Gardai were wrong and failed, on multiple occasions.
• I have nothing against the Guerin report, and in fact I think it has shown an amazing level of incompetence in the Gardai.
• There is no part of the Guerin report that I disagree with, or say that Guerin was wrong.
So let’s make that clear. There is nothing that I’m been evasive on or ignoring.
My point all along has been that the judge was wrong and that needs to be looked at. As I’ve stated before:
• A detective sgt have evidence against the judge grab to bail, the Judge granted bail anyway.
• The matter of the attempted child abduction was serious enough on its own for the judge to have refused bail. But the judge granted bail anyway.
You keep trying to twist my words, but this post should at least clarify that we are not opposite sides of the argument.
My point, once again, is that the Judges were just as wrong as the Gardai. And we should be inquiring into them, but instead we’re not. And that itself is wrong for the country and wrong for us who look up to the criminal justice system to keep law and order.
In this case the Judge, a District Justice, could only act on the restricted information made available to him by the prosecuting Garda who did not disclose vital and material evidence relevant to the Judge’s decision making. There is no record that I have been able to trace that the child abduction was disclosed to the Court and you have not quoted any source. You have not disclosed that the accused was on station bail. You have not disclosed the DPP’s direction which was not disclosed to the Court. You are spinning the true facts so as to distract from the full extent of Garda culpability in this matter.
By all means look at judicial policy and conduct but look first at the egregious failures of an Garda Siochana fully to infirm the Court. The Guerin Report discloses serious misconduct which every citizen should be concerned about. An Garda Siochana is the first point of public contact in these matters. If the process is defective to start with, the rest of the process will be misinformed.
My email address is prichardpeter1@gmail.com if you wish to use your knowledge of criminal procedures in order to assist complainants to the the statutory commission of investigation. I may only be an ordinary member of the public but I know incompetence and dereliction of duty when I see it.
Peter you are consistently saying that the judge wasn’t informed of the full facts of the Tipperary case, he was. You also mention that he wasn’t told about the DPP’s direction, what are you referring to here? Is it the DPP’s direction of Assault Causing Harm in the Cavan case, which if you look at the time line wouldn’t have been given when the bail objection to the Tipperary case was happening.
Here’s a link which clarifies the bail objection in relation to the Tipperary case.
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/seven-garda-reasons-for-refusing-bail-to-killer-mcgrath-30054030.html
Peter I’m not going to email you.
As you pointed out, your an ordinary member of the public.
I am a legal expert in criminal law. You, as stated by yourself, are not. But that doesn’t stop you making false statements and putting out wrong information about court procedures.
If you’re not willing to listen to an expert that has constructively told you where you’ve gone wrong, then there really isn’t any point in emailing you.
You are part of the problem when you start putting out wild untrue accusations with no basis. You are part of the solution when you start learning the reality and start becoming part of the process.
The Guerin report is a prime example of this. The report stuck to reality. It is nearly beyond belief what the Gardai did and did not do. And I hope to god the inquiry will dig that out. But you cannot go round and make stuff up (like arresting people for tv licences/Gardai detaining persons found guilty in court/etc). You simply can’t.
Leaving criminal, criminal procedure and law enforcement in the hands of proclaimed experts such as you has hardly produced effective and acceptable results.
My rule of thumb is to respectfully consider the views, opinions and insights of legal experts such as Sean Guerin who is open about his identity, has access to some of the documentary materials and personnel involved and who does not have a vested interest in promoting a particular view point.
I made no false allegations and, unlike you, I have not sought to plant red herrings to distract from the truth.
I do not hide behind anonymity and I make no apology fir criticising an Garda Siochana. Unlike you, I do not seek to defame Judges.
Yiu say that you are a legal expert in criminal law. Are you a practicising barrister or a practicising solicitor?
I made it clear that I was addressing the District Court hearing in Virginia County Cavan.
Are yiu happy that full disclosure was made to the District Judge in Vurginia County Cavan by an Garda Siochana.
I’m replying on the Guerin Report.
The Thowaway is a legal expert in Criminal Law. In fact, The Throway, a good name, is a serving member of An Garda Siochana who consistently blames the judiciary. No wonder he hides behind a cloak of anonymity.
Peter if you are talking about the Court in Cavan then why are you mentioning the child abduction in Tipperary which happened in October? You seem to be melding the two things into one.
What I am saying is this, the Gardai made massive mistakes in Cavan, they did not in Tipperary.
The Gardai never objected to bail in Cavan, they did in the Tipperary case. (They of course should have in Cavan too)
The judge in the Tipperary case heard the full facts of the case in Tipperary ie. the break in and attempted child abduction. The Gardai objected to McGrath’s bail on 7 different grounds and told the judge they felt he would commit further serious crime. Having heard all this the Judge still gave him bail.
Justice 4 All is a group which is doing wonderful work and has filled the void. I’ve been motivated by the denials and minimisation of the Throwaway to send a dossier on the Garda Siochan failures in Mullingar Garda Station which resulted in the murder of Michael Creighton to Justice 4 All.
All citizens need to get actively engaged and to support the efforts to investigate An Garda Siochana and to return it to the principled and law respecting force it once was before the bad apples spread the rot.
Just hearing reports of Garda Siochan routinely beating up suspects caught with stolen cards and then assaulting a medical doctor who protested over the assaults.
An Garda Siochan was allowed to run amok but there are many good Gardai and hopefully the cancer of abuse of power, criminality, and complicity in violent crime as well as targeting innocent people can be removed.
Is someone having a laugh?? I understand cutbacks have to be made etc but justice and healthcare are the 2 cases that should not be cut. This is absolutely ridiculous behaviour and is directly responsible for this woman’s death
I’m not sure this has anything to do with cutbacks. Just a calamity of errors that could have been easily avoided if people had performed their duties, something that could have been achieved irregardless of cutbacks.
I suspect that this went beyond an accumulation of errors. The violent and dangerous criminal enjoyed a remarkable level of immunity. Attacks, sex assaults and infant abduction all seem glossed over. I find this unsettling, even disturbing, and certainly highly suspicious.
An Garda Siochana should be accountable and not immune to criticism.
Happened in 2007, money everywhere that year.
Yes, no cutbacks back in 2007. Good point.
This is the human cost of having a police force stuck in the age of the donkey and cart. I wonder how many more like it have occurred in the last few decades.
Remember Michael Creighton who was murdered in Mullingar by a violent criminal for whom three weeks earlier a District Court bench arrest warrant was issued. The murderer was publicly walking around the town laughing at an Garda Siochana.
After the murder, the killer was then arrested but it was too late for poor Michael Creighton.
It is not always the Judges who are to blame. This is just one of many stories of Garda incompetence.
I’m well aware of Garda incompetence. I was attacked by a man who had previous convictions and was on a suspended sentence at the time. I reported it to the guards at the time who knew this person and his family personally and made a statement and even though I rang the gardai afterwards nothing was ever done so this man is still roaming the streets.. It makes me sick however there are many gardai out there who are doing a fantastic job but their work is not reflected by the decisions of many judges throughout the country who are allowing criminals out on bail. It’s just disgraceful.
Peter,
You seem to mistake what a bench warrant is. A bench warrant is purely a warrant issued by a judge to arrest and bring before a court a person. There is no power in a bench warrant to detain anyone or keep them in custody. You are also restricted in court from seeking custody of the individual except if there is a history of bench warrants been issued. The fact the bench warrant was not executed is an issue. But that a bench warrant was outstanding does not mean a murder would not have taken place.
A committal warrant is a warrant that means you are arrested and connoted to prison. A bench warrant merely means you must be put before a judge.
The purpose of the bench warrant was to bring an absconding criminal before the Court so that he could be dealt with by the Judge. The murderer, later convicted, was on a crime spree of robberies and violent assaults in Mullingar, and not arrested fir his offences and not brought before the Court as directed by the Judge when he was walking around Pearse Street and Mount Street in Mullingar. So many members of the public complained about this but the offender was not arrested until after he killed a good a kind man, Michael Creighton.
The fact is that the offender refused to come before the Court on three violent assaults. Had he come before the Court he would have received a custodial sentence or been remitted for prosecution by the DPP.
A bench warrant only means you are brought before a judge because you failed to turn up on a previous arranged occasion. There is nothing more or less serious than that.
The reality is that 99% of bench warrant suspects are solely given a new court date and the whole court process starts up again. And the judge usually gives that date months down the line.
A bench warrant means a person is to be brought to the closest and first available sitting of a court. It doesn’t mean that you will be brought before the same judge who is presiding over your case. And if it’s not the same judge, then your case will be put back to a time when that judge is available, and put months down the line that all the parties (injured party/Gardai/witnesses) can be notified to attend.
Unless there is a history (& it’s judges discretion whether 2 warrants is a history or 30 warrants is a history) of bench warrants there is no ability by Gardai to object to the continuing bail of the suspect.
It’s is almost unheard of, and I mean I’ve never heard or experienced it ever, that a suspect is brought before the courts on a bench warrant and the judge had gone to a full hearing then and there. It does not happen (Maybe that’s a question of the judges you should be looking to have in the inquiry!)
So yes, the Gardai failed to execute the bench warrant. They need to answer for that.
Stop sensationalising with lies. You’re making up court procedures that don’t exist.
Interesting how you have managed to minimise what a bench arrest warrant is and fail to recognise that it is a lawful judicial order to be obeyed even by An Garda Siochana.
Bail and bench warrants are separate matters even though a bench warrant is used where an accused on bail fails to turn up for a court hearing.
I see that you are highly motivated to put down red herrings.
I said nothing about continuity of judges but arresting and detaining an accused who fails to attend Court for a hearing on an assault case is critically important. It is important not to allow violent person run amok and continue to commit violent offences. The murders of Sylvia Roche Kelly and Michael Creighton are just two examples of the consequences of Garda failure to do their lawful duties.
I agree with you that violent offenders need to be out into custody.
A bench warrant is slightly different to an arrest warrant. You can arrest a person on foot of both. An arrest warrant is applied for by Gardai (or the DPP/CPS) for a specific reason. EG a suspect is not complying with their bail conditions. It catches most people by surprise that there actually isnt a power of arrest if a person fails to abide by their bail conditions and that a Garda need apply for an arrest warrant.
A bench warrant is issued for non attendance only. A bench warrant can be applied for to arrest an injured party, a witness or an accused. It is a specific warrant for non attendance. That is why Gardai cannot apply to have someone arrested on a bench warrant to be put into custody unless there is a specific bench warrant history and the judge believes that the person will not turn up again for the next date….
…My raising the issue of continuity of judges is one that reflects reality. Especially in the country a judge will move around the areas holding different courts on different days. The legality of a bench warrant is that you must be brought to a court sitting at the closest and earliest opportunity. The Gardai have no say in the matter of taking you to a court say next Wednesday. If your arrested on a bench warrant today, you go to the nearest court at the earliest time that day, otherwise you can take a Habeas Corpus action against the state. What happens there is that you likely end up before a judge that knows nothing of your case, and so they put it back to a sitting with the correct presiding judge and at a later date. This usually allows suspects to go on a rampage. Again, that’s an issue with the Judges and the Courts and something which I think should be looked at in conjunction with the Guerin report.
At least a violent offender can be taken off the streets and remanded in custody. Station bail and failure to enforce arrest warrants in the case of violent offenders facilitates their continuance of violence against the public. It is not only the Judges who are responsible.
Are you impressed by the principled and exposing actions of Sergeant McCabe?
That is what I’ve been trying to explain to you.
You cannot put a violent offender into custody because you’ve executed a bench warrant.
The only lawful means of putting a person in custody having arrested them on a bench warrant is restricted to whether the judges believes that the person will abscond again.
You mentioned that there is a failure to enforce arrest warrants – I have not seen anything in Guerin report that says that Gardai had 1.) made an application to the courts for an arrest warrant in any of the cases mentioned, & 2.) that they failed to enforce said arrest warrant.
It should be noted as well that you cannot simply walk in and apply for an arrest warrant for any reason or at any time. Arrest warrants are only applied for in certain circumstances (this is a court procedure, not a Garda procedure).
Perhaps you could tell me where this arrest warrant is in relation to the Guerin report. I’d be interested to find out.
The bench warrant applies to the sad case of Michael Creighton, a good friend and a decent man who lost his life, murdered because of Garda dereliction of duty. It is a case broadly similar to that Sylvia Roche Kelly.
An Garda Siochan need to abide by directions and orders from Judges.
Anyone reading through this has to wonder just what kind of people are directing law enforcement in this country,how did they qualify and get into senior positions within the police force,the level of incompency is quite incredible even for an amature group
Meanwhile they are putting people in prison for not paying their tv license
Plenty of Garda resources and determination for pursuing poverty type offences. Of course, proper priorities would be to pursue violent offenders.
This country if fcukd totally. No responsibility taken by anyone-ever!! But the small man will be prosecuted-no matter what! What a terrible country to accept it, as long as it’s not you on the receiving end of Irish justice!!!
Peter Richardson mentioned this earlier, a full 12 hours I’d reckon before anyone else did.
I hope Peter sticks with it with the same tenacity as very few do, because the name Jerry McGrath, will be forgotten about on these boards otherwise.
Thanks Niall. Garda inaction can have terrible consequences. It is brave and principled what Sergeant MCCabe and John Wilson did bit I remember the savagery with which they were attacked in comments on the Journal only weeks and months ago.
All institutions become dysfunctional and even corrupt without full and effective accountability.
We can and should blame Judges, lawyers, sentencing policy but the law enforcers, An Garda Siochana, must also shoulder their fair responsibility.
+!
Sad day for the gardai. Hate say,n it but unfortunately it only reinforces most peoples experiences with them. A tough thankless job they have but standards should be improved, not many organisations have the goodwill the gardai have from the public, here,s hoping things improve from here onward.
All this took was just one. .. Just one guard to stand up and fight for what they thought was right or wrong. . Someone died here because nobody gave a damn.. simple
This is a tragic scandal of fatal proportions. I hope the family of Sylvia are made financially secure for the rest of their lives after this. The justice system owes them. I would like to hear Michael Noonan’s view now. He said there was nothing to the murder of Sylvia other than a woman was murdered and a man is in jail. Such an added insult to the family when it was clear what had happened.
Of course without doubt, her murder could have been avoided. We have an incompetent judiciary, overseen by an incompetent department of injustice. Both of which are responsible for the actions of those whom they allow back on the streets in these circumstances.
Craziness
It not any thing to with justice where in the world would get life for murder and be out a few years
There is no reason a hardened criminal should spend any time in jail in Ireland , no matter how bad the crime is , we need the space’s for people who didn’t pay their TV licence and no car tax or something stupid
I urge all civic minded members of the public to report all cases of serious apparent Garda neglect to the Secretary General of the Department of Justice with a request that these cases be investigated by the forthcoming Commission of Investigation. The more that is exposed, the more effective the reform measures will be.
The Commission should include all aspects, including the operation of the Bail laws and the widespread failure in some Garda districts to prioritise bench warrants for arrest of persons accused of violent crimes who fail toturn up in Court for prosecutions.
Terrible. Just terrible. Number of errors on all parts here, but the fact remains an innocent woman lost her life. The justice system needs an overhaul. Lets hope frances fitzgerald can do a better job than shatter. Dont envy her anyway.
Justice in Ireland favors the criminal and discriminates against the victim, How often have we seen this happen,? and more to the point what have the powers that be done about it? This case is a perfect example -The sad part is that a woman who should have never had died, DID and another has not got justice.
Nora, that gets to the heart of the tragedies.
One woman dead, another the victim of a life threatening assault and deprived of justice.
This raises an issue as to whether or not there may be an antipathy to women in the system of criminal justice.
The judiciary, the legal profession and an Garda Siochan have collectively and individually a lot to be ashamed of.
Sgt McCabes so called colleagues are now hopefully feeling the heat being turned on them,will be nice to see these excuse for police officers squirming. I hope the new commissioner will come doen lime s ton of bricks on these rats! Lads, if you are one of the above…its your turn now , the country will be watching you!
When I was 15 my very drunk uncle came to the house shouting and rearing up, being a bollox par excellence. He physically artacked my much frailer sober uncle.
I ran to the garda station , I asked the superintendent please just send a car round it was usually enough to put the fear into my uncle. The superintendent looked at me as if I was A, stupid B, how dare I interrupt him and C, proceeds to lecture me on snitching !
I said, send a car now and if my uncle is hurt I will hold you responsible. I was only 15. I ran back and told my uncle the guards were coming he calmed down eventually they arrived they spoke with my uncle and left. To be fair to the guards that came to the house they were gentlemen and I was grateful for their intervention. Just thought I’d share that little story.
Hopefully now some senior officers will be brought to book over this fiasco.If we are serious about reforming our police then some senior heads HAVE to roll, kick them out without a pension, would focus the minds of some lazy senior officers around the country
Like you read the news a star here in waterford on court cases and nometer what 90 persent are suppinded sentanced over and out think about it
Went to school with this guy.it was very clear he was a nutter and capable of things like this.the principal eddie morrissey a very weak man chose to let it slide and not highlight it…..
Throwaway is dead on; the judge is the final arbiter on bail as it’s the court that grants bail not the prosecution. I assume bail was opposed but no matter what is all the none sense about a “bail book”?
Have these people not heard of computers and joined-up writing?
Surely before the accused appears from custody the arresting officer checks into PULSE prints off the accused rap sheet including all outstanding cases, places this in the file and bring it to the attention of the judge if the defence agent makes an application for bail?
Bail refused ! simples.com
Sounds like Guerin has been very thorough so no excuses in a full-blown enquiry where each step in the criminal process will be audited to the max and pity help those who messed up as the families of all concerned deserve nothing more than a full and detailed forensic investigation followed by recommendations to avoid repetition and of course disciplinary action to meet the gravity of the mistakes . Meanwhile, all applications for bail involving alleged offences of violence against the person must be processed timeously , fairly and with the fullest information on file as is possible. Notwithstanding the presumption of innocence Bail is a privilege and the protection of the public must be paramount . McGrath was clearly never an ideal candidate for bail at anytime never mind prior to being released to kill
It’s such a tragedy that the full facts were not put to the District Justice. Although Throwaway refers to the District Justice being informed of the child abduction, I’m unable to find any record that this was so.
A District Judge can only decide on the actual facts presented to him or to her. The life threatening assault on the female taxi driver was certainly not disclosed and that was a fundamental oversight or omission. Had this been disclosed, bail would have undoubtedly refused.
Fortunately, although too late for Sylvia Roche Kelly and her family, this is all out in the open and we can look forward to the statutory Commission of Investigation full inquiry.
The emphasis on granting bail instead of withholding bail needs to be re calibrated and that is urgent. District Court judges have to apply the principles laid down by the Superior Courts.
By way of explains the facts, Jerry McGrath was recorded after the abduction and violent assault on the female taxi driver, when she believed that she could be killed, as a mere assault, not assault causing injury or harm, and Pulse recorded the matter as a “minor assault”. The Garda Station released Mr. McGrath on station bail on his own bond to appear in Virginia District Court in May 2007.
Later two serious additional defences arose, including the abduction of a child . The DPP directed that the assault on the taxi driver be treated as a serious assault causing harm. It was open to An Garda to seek revocation of bail but that did not happen. The District Justice sitting in Virginia was not so informed of the seriousness of the assault and or of the abduction and this is at the root of the problem.
Putting a mere probationary Garda in charge of a serious assault was irresponsible and negligence. The Superintendent failed to inform the DPP of the fact that there were charges in Tipperary.
Despite the efforts to scapegoat the local District Justice, it is the case that Am Ga rad concealed relevant facts from both the Office of the DPP and from the District Justice.
As for the Bailey case, that is a utter disgrace. Fitting up a suspect for a crime is cowboy policing.
Peter the bail objections regarding the Tipperary case were printed in one of the papers a few months ago. The judge was informed of the full facts of the Tipperary case and the Sergeant stated it was his opinion that McGrath would commit further serious offences…the judge gave him bail.
I think the main f**k up occurred in Cavan and it was compounded when the Sergeant in Tipp wasn’t informed of the actual seriousness of the offence when he contacted them, which he was obviously doing because he was putting bail objections together.
Spend a little time sitting in on high court bail hearings and you will see how easy it is for violent criminals who are repeat offenders to get bail, even when the Gardai are vigorously objecting to the bail. The high court seems to see bail as a right not a luxury.
This was a District Court hearing in Virginia not High Court bail application.
I would prefer much stricter bail laws but this may require a further Constitutional amendment in view of bail policies laid down by the Court of Criminal Appeal.
The issue here is Garda failure, fir whatever reason, to appraise the District judge sitting in Virginia of the full facts, including the direction of the DPP.
I look forward to full accountability and reform.
In this case, Jerry McGrath was initially out on station bail, not Court bail, when he committed further offences. The assault on the taxi driver was minimised and that led to the subsequent problems culminating in the death of Sylvia Roche Kelly.
Actually Peter I was talking about the bail objection in the Tipperary case which was after the events in Cavan. The point I was making is that the district court judge in Tipperary was made aware of the facts of the Tipperary case, the Sergeant outlined his bail objections including his belief that McGrath would commit further serious crime and the judge have him bail. Yes there are serious questions in relation to what happened in Cavan, and if the Sergeant in Tipp had been properly informed of the seriousness of this incident I’m sure this would’ve been conveyed to the district court judge in Tipp, tragically this was not the case. I still find it amazing that a judge could give McGrath bail considering the nature of his offence in Tipp.
And yes, I know this was a district court bail hearing, I was merely making a point about High Court Bail, which I think is relevant as, if McGrath’s bail was refused at district court level then he would’ve been going to the high court looking for bail.
And just to help peter check out this link which sets out the 7 objections to McGrath’s bail in relation to the Tipperary offence.
James,
Unfortunately Gardai are prohibited by court rules to provided a judge with a list of previous convictions in an ordinary bail objection. This could be seen as been prejudicial to the suspect.
They can include the these previous convictions under a specific bail objection known as a Section 2 bail objection (similar application can be made under the OCallahan Rules).
I would hope the inquiry would establish whether Gardai ever pursued a Sect 2 bail objection.
Peter,
I’ve included the details of the bail objection to McGrath by Gardai for the charge of the attempted child abduction. This DOES NOT detract from the problems in the Guerin report, and I am not getting the Gardai off the hook. This was down to the judge, and is one of the reasons why the Gardai and Judges failed Sylvia.
The bail hearing took place on October 30, 2007 in Limerick District Court in front of Judge Tom O’Donnell. At the bail hearing, Det Sgt John Long laid out the seven reasons why the court should refuse the bail application:
• That the defendant was a flight risk due to the seriousness of the charges.
• The weight of evidence against the defendant.
• The length of sentence on conviction.
• The DPP was considering more serious charges against Jerry McGrath arising from the incident.
• The fact that the defendant gave his address as “of no fixed abode”.
• The defendant lived in the same neighbourhood as the victim’s family, who were terrified.
• Gardai feared the defendant may commit more crimes of a serious nature.
However, despite this the judge granted bail.
I should add, that these objection were made on the attempted child abduction charge. A few weeks before Sylvia was murdered.
Please refer to the Court hearing in the District Court in Virginia county Cavan.
The name of the murder victim is Sylvia Roche Kelly. I use her full name out of respect and due to the fact that I was unfamiliar with her. Only friends and family should address the deceased by her first name. It’s a simple matter of respect. I don’t mean to criticise you only to make the discussion before respectful, if you don’t mind.
Peter,
You clearly have your own agenda that you are refusing to move from. Even though I have clearly shown that you have lied (Gardai arresting tv licence offenders/Gardai acting as the prison service), that you do not understand legal procedure (bail & bench warrant…you stated arresting someone on a bench warrant means you can lock them up & have a hearing), are clearly uninformed of the argument (you said the bail objections for the child abduction didn’t happen…even though I’ve printed the name of the judge, the date, & the detective sgt who objected as well as a list of the objections).
It is quite clear that you possess a great zeal for these issues in the Guerin report. It is however regrettable that you carry that zeal with misinformation and ignorance. You could be an asset that could champion the cause, instead you have only weakened the cause by stating falsehoods.
Repeated accusations of lies from an anonymous commenter who keeps using pedantic points about TV licences carries no weight. You are able to make accusations of falsehoods cloaked in anonymity.
I rely on the accounts and sequence given in the Guerin Report. We know the identity of the author of that Report.
411 people were imprisoned in 2013 for failing to pay District Court imposed fines fir non payment of TV licences. The figures are available. Each case involved a team of Gardai arresting the unfortunate people and bringing them to prison. Would that so much conscientiousness could be exercised in other areas of law enforcement.
The is a curiously and repeatedly accusatory tone to your emails. It detracts from the points which yiu are attempting to make but O allow fir the adversarial and highly aggressive nature of criminal lawyers.
It is sad to observe your discourtesy, Throwaway, in referring to a murder victim by her first name. O offered you the opportunity to correct that but as with former Minister Shatter, adversarial people find it difficult to reside from their expressions.
The Throwaway is any interesting name. What inspired it? There is a throwaway and careless quality to your insults.
As I’ve said before, my every post has been correcting what you have wrongly or inaccurately stated. Nothing more or less.
It is unfortunately your personal issue that you take insult to that as I have not once ‘name called’, derided, abused or insinuated any form of malice towards you. Nor have I attempted to deviate you from your beliefs on the Gardai (or wider Criminal Justice system).
Ill repeat myself again; it’s clear you have a zeal for these issues. It’s unfortunate that where you have been informed that you are wrong, that you refuse to listen and instead continue on a blissful ignorance.
There is not much that will change your opinion if you are prepared to accept you world view as the only world view. Where I have corrected you has not been on matters of opinion but on procedure.
I wish you the best in your new commission (for want of a more appropriate name on my part) and your further endeavours. I only hope that if you do take to the services of one of my colleagues that you listen better to them than you have done to I. As I assure you, they will state the same correction in procedure as I have informed to you.
The Throwaway is a me,her of An Garda Siochana and has a vested interest in seeking to distract. Yes, the Thowaway professes to be a legal expert in Criminal law but his knowledge is one of criminal law procedures from the perspective of An Garda Siochana.
His objectivity is undermined by his position as a Garda, one of a different mould to the honourable and principled Sergeant McCabe.
Now if ever there was a man suitable for prision bail until a proper and full investigation into his first attack on a taxi driver, this was it. What a nasty peice of work. He was lucky the father of the 5 year old held him down I would of made sure he never walked again if he felt like attacking my daughter.
Emotions aside punishment imprisonment and treatment is what this sick F#@$ needs.
The Gardai seem too busy exaggerating the take from asian grow houses… No connections for those lads…rather than doing the job of protecting the Irish people from baby snatchers…..
Violent crime should take priority in allocation of Garda resources and enforcement.
The responses of Throwaway have encouraged me to draw the attention of the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and The new Minister for Justice to the Michael Creighton case in Mullingar and to set up an informal group to help persons who have serious and substantial complaints to make about violent crime to the new Commission as soon as it is established. We will need the services of an experienced criminal law solicitor, barrister and a retired member of An Garda Siochana to assist. Perhaps, health permitting, retired Garda Jihn Wilson might assist as a consultant.
Ian Bailey and his lawyers might contribute as soon as his current case is over.
The time is now right to bring suspected Garda incompetence and impropriety into the open so that reforms can follow. Clearly this should be directed to very serious cases and not the numerous cases of minor problems.
It is obvious that there will be many who wish to defend An Garda Siochana but we must remember that the vast majority of An Garda are honest and conscientious. There is clearly a need to identify the bad cases and to prevent these happening again.
Sylvia Roche Kelly and Michael Creighton deserve no less.
The Commission needs to be wide ranging in its Terms of Reference and not confined to Cavan.
I have arranged to meet a retired solicitor so as to get this kick started and to set up a website so that details can be provided of serious questionable cases and assistance provided to make written submissions to the Commission of Investigation.
Guerin gives excellent recommendations on the Terms of Reference. Now people need to be encouraged to come forward and not to be exposed to legal fees. This is a matter of public interest. It is essential that the system of criminal law administration in Ireland be reformed but that reform will only be effective if people come forward with their true experiences, fur example false confessions, fabricated statements, incentives to give false evidence and the scandalous cases in Dublin where a homeless man was bullied into admitting guilt for a murder he did not commit.
I wonder if the bullies and harassers of Sergeant Maurice McCabe within the force will now lay off him and stop their nasty and illegal campaign against him?
Why am I not surprised the police do there job and then the are let out on bail.
The life threatening assault on the female taxi driver was treated as a minor assault and the offender, Jerry McGrath was let out on station bail.
Later when the matter came before Cavan District Court, the later abduction, the Tipperary charges and the fact that the DPP directed that the assault be treated as one causing harm were concealed from the District Justice. The District Justice could only decide on the limited facts presented to him by An Garda Siochana, the local Superintendent, and the fact that An Garda had already granted station bail.
It is tempting to scapegoat the local District Justice but we need also to see a full investigation of the role of An Garda Siochana.
I’ve now finished reading the full Guerin Report. It’s appalling.
Thankfully, Sergeant McCabe is largely vindicated.
Read the section of the article above “communication back and forth to Cavan” which outlines the correct sequence based on the Guerin Report.
The Guerin Report is impressive and it shows the precise sequence of events. There was a clear failure by an Garda Siochana fully to appraise the District Justice at the hearing in Virginia of all of the material facts.
Let us not ignore the fact that An Garda Siochana allowed station bail to Jerry McGrath.
Jim, your link refers to the Limerick Court Hearing before DJ Tom O’Donnell not the Cavan case of the severely injured female taxi driver. The serious and life threatening assault of a female taxi driver should not have resulted in station bail.
Even in Limerick, the full facts were not disclosed to the Judge.
Jerry McGrath enjoyed exceptional leniency, courtesy of An Garda Siochana.
It seems easier to imprison TV licence fine defaulters than some violent defenders. We need to get our priorities right. Of course, the sad and avoidable murder of Sylvia Roche was by no means an isolated case.
I know it refers to the Tipperary case Peter. My point, which I’ve made on a number of occasions is this, how was this man given bail by the district court judge in relation to the Tipperary case?
The judge was given the full facts of the Tipperary case, granted he was not appraised of the Cavan case which it appears is the fault of the Gardai in Cavan not the Gardai dealing with the Tipperary case. The Gardai outlined 7 different reasons why McGrath should not be given bail and the Judge still set him free.
By the way I totally agree with you in relation to the Cavan case. There is no way he should’ve been given station bail. He should’ve been charged, brought before the court and had his bail objected to…however as evidenced by the Tipperary case, he probably would’ve been given bail.
Had the full facts been out before the Court, he would not have been granted bail because the violent offender was on a violent crime spree. Multiple offences would have avoided the Limerick situation.
We can blame the Courts, we can blame the victims, we can blame politicians, we can blame inaction by successive Ministers for Justice but the fact is that just as with any other imperfect institution in society, even An Garda Siochana, should not be immune from investigation, criticism and accountability. Treating An Garda Siochana as especially privileged and protected, because it has a challenging task, will not work.
I still credit the fact that it was two and now three members of the Force who came forward and blew the whistle despite immense personal cost and harassment.
We will now see if An Garda Siochana will support these brave and principled Gardai.
An Garda Siochana must not be allowed to be above the law or to use gratuitous violence against members of the public.
I think too much things gone wrong for be a simply collection of mistakes by Garda… There is something more… On TV they spoken a lots about the family of the murderer, saying that is a really good family… I’m curious to know the work or the social status of the family ( I mean the work that his parents do ( or did), money and other… I’ll be not surprised if the father, the mother or other memebrs of his family are or were connected ( in medium-high level) with Garda or with important roles in the community ( politics or similar…)
In 2013, 411 people were imprisoned in Oreland for non payment of television licence fees. This represents a substantial year on year increase over previous years.
Time to stop being shocked and do something about it. This is just an appalling symptom of the failure to deal with the corruption and incompetence exposed in the Morris and Barr tribunals along with the long list of other complaints made against an Garda Siochana.
The pedant in me can’t help noting that the Journal is in need of a decent proof reader. Gizza job!
Morris and Barr will be followed by the disclosures in the Bailey case. As long as we keep our heads in the sand, Garda corruption and incompetence will remain unaddressed.
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