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GREECE’S FINANCE MINISTER has today appealed to the Irish people to try to see things from the perspective of the people of his country, as his government attempts to reach a deal on its massive debt.
Writing in the Irish Times today, Yanis Varoufakis gives details of a meeting in which he says Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan protested that ministers had not been given a look at the proposals they were there to discuss.
Varoufakis says in his article that he was not actually allowed to share the written proposals with any of the other finance ministers.
The euro zone moves in a mysterious way. Momentous decisions are rubber- stamped by finance ministers who remain in the dark on the details, while unelected officials of mighty institutions are locked into one-sided negotiations with a solitary government-in-distress.
He goes in to say Irish readers may look at his country’s seemingly never-ending crisis and “allow themselves a feeling of mild superiority, on the basis that the Irish suffered quietly, swallowed the bitter pill of austerity and are now getting out of the woods”.
The Greeks, in contrast, protested loudly for years, resisted the troika fiercely, elected my radical left-wing party last January and remain in the doldrums of recession.
He said this feeling is understandable, but unhelpful, and encouraged people to try to have a better understanding of the “Greek drama” and how the eurozone really works.
‘Terror scenarios’
Today the office of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said it is hopeful for a last-ditch deal to stop it defaulting on its debt.
“Those who invest in crisis and terror scenarios will be proven wrong,” a spokesperson said.
Greece has less than two weeks to break the deadlock in talks with its creditors to unlock the last €7.2 billion trance of its international bailout or face a messy euro exit and possibly even being booted out of the EU.
The Irish government has been holding high level talks with the Central Bank and the NTMA about the implications for this country of Greece exiting the eurozone. Speaking in Brussels last night, Noonan said:
We don’t think there will be a contagion effect if there was a Greek exit but we’ve had conversations at a high level with the NTMA and with the Central Bank and we’re watching the situation and we’re taking advice from the ECB in Frankfurt and from elsewhere, but it’s a European issue rather than an Irish issue.
Ahead of a fresh round of talks between Athens, the EU, ECB and IMF scheduled for Monday, Greeks reportedly stepped up withdrawals from the nation’s troubled banks despite the central bank insisting the financial system was stable.
Savers took out one billion euros on Thursday, bringing total withdrawals to 2.6 billion over three days, financial website Euro2day reported.
- With reporting from AFP.
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Regardless of your opinion of the Greek crisis, what was said in the article is true. Too many unelected bureaucrats making decisions in Europe and everyone must have a more critical look at what’s happening
The IMF have immensely profited from the crises up until now.
“IMF has made EUR 2 5 billion profit out of Greece loans”
Jubilee Debt Campaign show that the IMF has made €2.5 billion of profit out of its loans to Greece since 2010. If Greece does repay the IMF in full this will rise to €4.3 billion by 2024.
The IMF has been charging an effective interest rate of 3.6% on its loans to Greece. This is far more than the interest rate the institution needs to meet all its costs, currently around 0.9%. If this was the actual interest rate Greece had been paying the IMF since 2010, it would have spent €2.5 billion less on payments.
Out of its lending to all countries in debt crisis between 2010 and 2014 the IMF has made a total profit of €8.4 billion, over a quarter of which is effectively from Greece. All of this money has been added to the Fund’s reserves, which now total €19 billion. These reserves would be used to meet the costs from a country defaulting on repayments. Greece’s total debt to the IMF is currently €24 billion.”
Tim Jones, economist at the Jubilee Debt Campaign, said:
“The IMF’s loans to Greece have not only bailed out banks which lent recklessly in the first place, they have actively taken even more money out of the country. This usurious interest adds to the unjust debt forced on the people of Greece.”
http://jubileedebt.org.uk/news/imf-made-e2-5-billion-profit-greece-loans
I recently published following figures and had a fitting answer from my friend Mike Hall, economist and publisher , which sums it up briefly but succinctly.
“Hi Pat, The figures etc presented look correct to me. For the case of a country within the Eurozone, it is of course purely absurd and punitive to oblige that country to make it’s situation even worse by swelling the IMF’s coffers in (usurious) interest payments. The Eurozone has the ability to create Euros at will from thin air. The Eurozone as a whole is suffering a massive demand shortfall and consequent output GDP gap, as evidenced by its ongoing 11% (mass) unemployment. There is no economics – or even moral rationale – for not stimulus spending newly issued, debt free Euros in the amount required to redress this man-made situation of deprivation. For any Eurozone country struggling with a negative imbalance, there are other Eurozone countries benefitting from the other side of that imbalance. Therefore, there is an equal responsibility on both creditor and debtor to resolve the due diligence error in making unpayable loans. Any country deemed fit to have joined the Eurozone should be helped back to economic health, not punished. The corrupt or incompetent officials and politicians responsible for these poor debtor/creditor decisions should face punishishment (and deterrent),not the ordinary citizens who bear neither the ability nor responsibility for macro economic management. But, of course, such officials are members of the elites’ club, bankers and other Capital owners, whose interests are those really being represented, more or less universally, rather than those of majority citizens in a ‘democracy’.”
If I borrow money from a bank then I will have to give over a lot of info to unelected officials that I might prefer not to.
If I choose NOT to borrow but live within my means then I can do what I like.
The Greeks should stop whinging about other people and look at their lying cheating governments and taxpayers and figure out that THEY alone got themselves into this mess.
John, the Greeks are running a budget surplus. ie they are taking in more than they spending. But this doesn’t suit the EU officials or right wing parties. They want people to suffer.
I agree Anne Marie. I mean the mind boggles. The finance ministers in EU attend a critical meeting on the potential future of the Euro and don’t get to see the content before discussions take place. EU 0 IMF 4 ECB 2
The Irish are good little boys and girls
@Cal
I would be running a budget surplus at home if I didn’t include loan and interest repayments so that is utter nonsense.
They borrowed money they couldn’t repay (whether they should have been given it at all is questionable) so the nonsense people spout about being given money to bail out banks is wrong, they were given money to repay loans taken out by previous democratically elected governments using false bookkeeping figures.
A ‘deal’ will be struck in the end…too much drama. If they were serious about a default, they wouldn’t bother showing up for ‘talks’.
This guy will be Putins bitch,feel bad for the greeks.
if you borrow money from a bank you are receiving binary code produced digits visiable on a screen, money has zero intrinsic value, the only thing that has value is what you generally receive in exchange for it.
John,
Greece’s right wing governments from the Metaxas dictatorship of the 70s to the neo liberals of the Samaras regime facilitated vast wholesale tax evasion by the corporate oligarchy of shipping, energy, media etc. Ordinary Greeks have suffered the consequences of this for decades.
This inherent dysfunction was compounded by entry into the Euro which placed a budget constraint on the nation which they did not have as a sovereign currency issuer.
These 2 factors pushed the Greek economy over the cliff after the global financial crisis in 2008.
In addition, much of Greece’s recent debt like Irelands was imposed on the nation to cover the losses of financial speculation.
“The EU-IMF Troika forced a bankrupt country to take on further loan packages, allowing foreign banks to dump their bonds onto Greek taxpayers and trap Greek citizens in debt servitude. To add insult to injury, this was called a rescue.”
In Syriza, the Greeks have at least a government which is attempting to defend the interests of the majority of Greek citizens instead of a capitalist elite. Unfortunately they are trapped in a currency union which is dominated by institutions like the ECB who viciously protect the interests of capital at the expense of the vast majority of people. Syriza and the Greek people cannot take them on from within the confines of the Euro so will ultimately have to leave or be crushed. Solidarity with Syriza and the Greek people in their struggle.
Ffs “they alone” are u for real?
You show a decided lack of economic understanding. Regardless of administrative costs money is not free. Looks like that as the loan now faces default 3.5% wasn’t enough interest when faced with 100% capital loss. Would you loan to that risk?
Yeah John and the Irish were no better – Irish failed to look at their lying cheating govts and tax payers and look at the mess we were/still are in. We should have protested (whinged? ) when we had the chance
The Irish John – same thing, different guise
@Una
You are right, we elected FF and we got EXACTLY what we deserved but the difference is WE are not threatening to default and we have an efficient revenue service so that at least we will pay for electing grubby money grabbing politicians AND SO SHOULD GREECE, end of…..
The Greeks held the Olympics ffs when in reality they hadn’t a pot to piss in ??????
*correction – Irish POLITICIAN’S feelings of mild superiority …
#notinmyname
John, yes. But we also loaned to people who couldn’t afford it and on and on – like I said – same madness and irresponsibility in different guises is how I see it. I don’t know enough about the economic details of any country to make a specific argument. But we were also in a mess and considered defaulting – at least some thought we should? and what about EG’s ‘labours way or the high way’? It was all mooted here too at first.
We dont feel superior – we just dont want to be paying for Greece’s tab as well as our own.
Yeah but Ireland has a tax haven system that enables tax avoidance.
no Jimmy we are happy enough to pay over 40% of Europe’s banking debt as it is.no we’re standing shoulder to sholder with the private bondholders and banking debts. we don’t mind in the least that our kids are saddled with other debts.
Ireland is turning the corner and heading straight over a cliff.The eu like ff fg and labour are corrupt.Wait till all our new taxes kick ih plenty of fascist on here to day i fully support greece to leave the eu and so should we.
If you’re so supportive of Greece Bobby, why don’t you open a Greek bank account and stick all your money in it. Talk is cheap.
The economic response in this country and in other distressed EU economies has been superior to that of Greece.
Maybe the Greeks should learn from their neighbours and stop with the looney left brinksmanship.
They ran up their own debts. Unlike Ireland there were no bank related debts foisted upon them. They don’t collect tax efficiently, corruption is rampant and they retire 12 years younger than the European average. Give me a break.
Fiannaoicht i have no money all gone on bills because of ff fg labour lost my good paying job now only cheap labour while the bond holders speculaters builders get all their loans paid for wrote off on behalf of the tax payer the likes of dob while i have a mortgage till i am 72 all because we have politicians with no balls.Greece is bang on the button austerity does not work.Working poor now thanks to ff fg labour well done for wreaking our country ye sold our sovereignty and gave the people of Ireland an odious debt. I have no trust in ff fg labour and especially the neo liberal banking system.Greedy people thats all they are wake up fiannaoicht look around only the wealty are doing well.The banking system is a scam we are not fooled any more.
Fiannaoicht their leaders ran up the debt not the people just like ff fg labour thats why it is call an “odious debt” here have a read and open your eyes try learn something! http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious
Jimmy your already paying for europes debt 42% till the year 2052 over 8 billion on interest alone taxation is only the beginning wait till after the elections they will hammer us again.
The Irish are the subservients of Europe spin it anyway you want but we are. The first to take the hit the last to benefit. Any benefit we got from EU was because of Greece Spain Italy . Debt write down has saved us more than the 300million we are cribbing about. 85million Irishwater consultants 100,s million to bailout Denis O Brien and developers. The man is also right about Troika been one of the most undemocratic entities in the world. The Irish have become a nation of kittens tippy toeing around their bullies and when left alone they we become even more afraid of everything.. Oh I wont go for a walk because it may rain later I might get abit wet so I just do nothing sit there and do nothing. Bravo
And your beloved lefties will do what exactly?
Do a full scale Napolean on the self proclaimed masters of everything. This time without the Waterloo.
Wrong! They retire at 67. They have done since 2012. A prerequisite of the second bailout. I’m sick of hearing this bandied about. Its inaccurate and misleading. http://rt.com/business/greece-retirement-troika-cuts-620/ ‘third line’
however statistics from greece show that on average men retire at 62 and women at 59.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/12/04/75-of-greek-pensioners-enjoy-early-retirement/
Residents in every country in the eu can take early retirement Stephen. Are you saying its not the democratic right of a greek citizen to do the same? With their GDP contracting by 25% since the TROIKA directives and unemployment reaching 25% and a social services structure that allows you to get unemployment allowance for one year only what would you suggest they do? Live on grass? Ever hear of catch 22???Its a red line Stephen. If austerity measures screw up an economy to this extent and thousands of families are depending on a pension income cos they cant get employment assistance then its actually a matter of survival don’t you think?
Here is a link to the retirement age by country. You can check what the average is, and when exactly the Greeks retire (and if it’s actually 12 years earlier):
http://www.etk.fi/en/service/retirement_ages/1601/retirement_ages
Furthermore, following the link below, you can find a comparison of the retirement age from 2013, as when as what a pension was in each country.
Needless to say, that pensions have been since then further reduced, and retirement is at a higher age:
http://conversation.which.co.uk/money/uk-state-pension-comparison-serps/
Because instead of just generalising, using any stereotype we might have in our heads, it is sometimes better to look at the actual facts…
Incorrect Fiannaoicht. Like Ireland, much of Greece’s debt was imposed on the nation to cover the losses of financial speculation.
“The EU-IMF Troika forced a bankrupt country to take on further loan packages, allowing foreign banks to dump their bonds onto Greek taxpayers and trap Greek citizens in debt servitude. To add insult to injury, this was called a rescue.”
coveny you’re a sad fool
“no Jimmy we are happy enough to pay over 40% of Europe’s banking debt ”
When did that happen again?
Waddler. Ireland’s debt was not imposed in the Irish people. As a nation we continually elected glorified county councillors to run our country and we ended up in a mess of our own making. We got what we deserved but a lot of people like to pretend it was someone else’s fault. Blaming politicians as well is a joke. We elected them. And for those who say that they didn’t vote for them, well then you failed to convince the electorate that there was a better option.
Waddler, the only people that turned the Greeks into debt slaves were successive Greek governments.
Saoirse, I’ve missed something. Can you explain how I can retire early?
fiannaiocht – sounds like FF to me
fair focks to them so
This from the party that said “Greece is not Ireland”. They for that right
got*
Couldn’t we all pay a little more tax so that the Greeks don’t have to!?!?!?!
Someone should tell the Greeks to grow up and stop looking for ways to avoid their responsibilities. Pay up and please shut up – like the rest of us!
Russia will annex Greece with cash, it’s cheaper than using an army. Why wouldn’t Putin take his chance, the world is a lot bigger than the EU.
while we’re at it, if Greece facilitates the euro there’s corporation tax, personal tax avoidance schemes, relaxed rules of commerce, all that military spending gone from France and Germany, all in the heart of Europe. I’m starting to get the feeling that a bigger game is at play here.
George your another plank.
Syriza are Marxists. For them worse is better. Anarchy is the objective.
Anarchy is the objective of Marxists?! Oh moses….
They showed up to work 3 days a week.
Vast majority of people working for govt.
Overspent shockingly.
No productivity.
“We don’t want to pay for our lifestyles. Europe you will pay it”
There’s more to it but not much more. Very little more.
And that was just us……….
@Sean … shockingly uneducated comment … the vast majority of the Greek bailout went to pay the banks – so no, Europe did not fund the lifestyles of the Greek people, it funded the super rich bankers, while the ordinary citizen suffered.
You’re forgetting that the actual issue here is that “they” were plyed with money, firstly by speculators, and then by the troika to pay off those private creditors – who should probably have been left hanging. Karl Whelan’s piece this morning was surprisingly actually quite good:
https://medium.com/bull-market/greece-the-euro-and-gunboat-diplomacy-3193983d8336
Public services require people working for govt. How else do you expect a country to function?
eaten bread is soon forgotten, now you know how Germany and the like felt about us
Generalizations.
So correct Elizabeth – The money spent and misappropriated in Greece was by the rich and the Banker – just as in Ireland .
It’s only since the people elected a Government with some savvy , honesty and spine , that the Gangsters and Europe bully boy tactics is being stood up to nowadays !
Interesting comment about being spoken down to and lectured by our Government – Exactly the way Enda and iPhone Joan , Noonan and others lecture us too – all the while though they draw down Salaries, which are the highest in The World , for the job that they are supposed to be doing .
Public services and govt are largely wealth spending. Private industry is largely wealth generating. If the former becomes larger than the amount of tax you can take in tax from the latter, then you are living a party which will end with a huge hangover
Public services create economic growth. The Govt should find the money through taxes to sustain public services. Even if this means taking on vested interests that think income tax is sacrosanct.
Oh lol. I suppose you believe that Brave Glorious Private Sector Wealth Creation doesn’t entirely depend entirely on the Bad Wasteful State?
The importance of public debt / deficits is overstated in any case – there’s no reason why sovereign debt can’t be rolled over indefinitely, if you can find a lender.
What’s more important is the state of the economy in general – only a mug would suggest that state spending doesn’t help a national economy. But what’s more important again – although connected – is the welfare of citizens.
Elizabeth King dont give Sean any attention he is one of the government trolls on here every day
A few people trying to rewrite history here…..
The Greek situation is absolutely nothing like the Irish situation.
In Ireland we certainly all ended up paying for private debt caused by the greed of bankers and developers. The Greek debt is entirely sovereign debt – the accumulated debt of years of overspending and under-taxation. It is an entirely different situation.
You’ve hit the nail on the head, Avina Laff!
More people missing the point entirely by trying to make the story about Bad Greek Profligacy, Sure They Deserve It.
While people here are falling over themselves to attack the Greeks, theres’s a serious conversation to be had about the anti-democratic way in which the EU / Troika goes about its business. To quote directly from the Varoufakis piece.
“Perhaps the most telling remark by any finance minister in that meeting came from Michael Noonan. He protested that ministers had not been made privy to the institutions’ proposal to my government before being asked to participate in the discussion.
To his protest, I wish to add my own: I was not allowed to share with Mr Noonan, or indeed with any other finance minister, our written proposals. In fact, as our German counterpart was later to confirm, any written submission to a finance minister by either Greece or the institutions was “unacceptable”, as he would then need to table it at the Bundestag, thus negating its utility as a negotiating bid.”
@Elizabeth
That’s a bit rich calling Séan’s comment ‘uneducated’.
The Greek bailout money went to pay back bank loans that the Greeks took out to cover day to day spending because they couldn’t be bothered collecting enough tax to cover their ridiculous social welfare / government spending oh and the Olympics !!!
Don’t let the truth get in the way of your bitterness hey !!
Yes George – there are plenty of people who seem quite happy to completely ignore the facts in their desperate rush to try and get a dig in at bankers, elites and the ‘super-rich’…
Oh lol. Feck the begrudgers, lads, amirite?
So, based on your very careful selection of facts, it’s perfectly fine for the Troika / EU to immiserate the Greek people, for the Greek state to be bound to policies that benefit creditors (and international capital, natch) to the detriment of its citizens, irrespective of the democratically expressed will of its people, for EU finance ministers to be expected to accept or reject proposals they haven’t even seen – that one was too much for even Noonan ffs – etc., etc. No possibility of a compromise or some thought for citizens, just governments dancing to the Troika’s tune and heaping misery down on their people. There Is No Alternative.
The worst part of it is that Syriza are looking for isn’t particularly radical, just the leeway to adopt policies that will give Greek citizens some hope for the future. Lest we forget that neither they nor the Greek people caused the crisis. Plus, nowhere in this is the acknowledgement that the private actors who stoked the previous regime’s fires should take responsibility for their poor investments.
But hey, let the Greeks, they deserve it, right?
@ITS student, in fairness I think when it comes to emu and democracy there has to be limits. Tax the rich more is a valid left argument as a means to balancing the books, but the rhetoric from the left is just anti-austerity with no talk of actually balancing the books. In the individual currencies that would be sorted by soaring interest rates soon enough, but with the euro there has to be some sort of limits to the democracy, unless they want to leave the euro of course?
more than uneducated – downright dim witted
Bankers and developers certainly behaved greedily and stupidly during the early noughties, culminating in that massive socialisation of debt over last five years, but only because Politicians stood idly by, and sleepwalked their way into that crisis situation by neutralising the checks, balances and safeguards already in the system to ensure order in our economic and banking system.
In effect, those FF led Coalitions, ably assisted by FG and LABs spend/spend/spend cheerleading, stopped the key Senior Civil Servants – who it now seems from BI we’re screaming halt for years to the “let-it-rip madness” – from carrying out their regulatory and oversight functions effectively.
Us citizens need rothweiller type characters at the helm in the CS, performing their duties and guarding our interests with iron wills, ensuring the machinery of state grinds smoothly and effectively and not lapdogs who allow politicians walk all over them!
@john … thanks for confirming my point that it wasn’t the ordinary Greek citizen that received a bailout … Don’t let your bitterness get in the way of truth hey!
Elizabeth you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this. Greece was running a sovereign budget deficit for years – as such every single Greek citizen, rich or poor, benefited. They were borrowing money to cover this (as is normal in these situations) however their mistake was to keep borrowing instead of getting their house in order when things started to get out of control.
They’re not now being asked to repay private bad debt (as was the case in Ireland), they’re being asked to repay sovereign national debt – the money that successive greek governments borrowed to fund the running of the country, in the full knowledge that it would need to be repaid at some point. Its like going on a splurge with your credit card and then blaming visa when you need to pay it back!
@Avina Laaf
Elizabeth clearly isn’t one for understanding either personal responsibility OR debt repayment.
I bet if she loaned you money SHE would expect you to repay it though.
Well I certainly won’t be lending her any money anytime soon anyway….
Green monkey – haha haha YES
bit like the Irish then…..
Yeah and the rich in Ireland get similar deals – medical cards for kids most recent…. Chuck the Irish out too after all we’re just Christian Paddys
fock – could do with 3 day week in Ireland – same pay. how many are getting ill having to try keep roof over their heads coz of our fock ups here
nah….. its not so different the impact on the ordinary citizen much the same. we’re no better.
and we have shown such better economic strategy John? tell that to the people struggling to keep their homes….
You one of the 3 Avina laafin my head off here
like we did – the impact on Joe soap is the same. corrupt in all cases. we’re no better
“Irish people’s feelings of mild superiority are unhelpful ”
Assuming that he got this impression through talking with Michael Noonan, It’s *amazing* that he decribed the superiority as “mild”.
FFS. Michael Noonan has utter contempt for people who irritate him, and he’s not shy of showing it.
I wonder did he mention the Feta Cheese remark..he’s an arrogant snob is Mick
That’s one of characteristics of some, they feel better about themselves, while looking at anothers misfortune.
The cheek of them. That’s pure lies. But I sure am glad I am Irish and not Greek
Bet your husband isn’t.
John denvoy – lolololol
When they default on the money they owe us in 2 weeks, we will have to borrow even more, suck it up Greece.
How much do they owe us?
280m
Not as much as the banks do , but let’s not concern ourselves with that because we got it so right increasing our national debt to pay off gambling debts , instead lets gloat over the Greeks misfortune like FG led pigs .
More Austerity policies like those imposed since 2010, which have crushed their economy by 25% of GDP, and resulted in Depression levels of mass unemployment (but for longer) will make Greece’s ability to service its debt less likely, not more so.
Back in 2010, the IMF forecast that if Greece complied with its Troika imposed Austerity budget cutting – which it did – then there would have been only a few percent contraction in GPD (& increase in unemployment) intitially, then a return to growth 2yrs ago.
This is the real point of Syriza’s argument – following the Austerity conditions of the Troika is an absolute failure and made its economic sustainability far worse. Whilst the political leadership of the IMF prefers not admit such abject failure of their Macro Economic theories (at least in public), their economists have had to present the appalling embarrasment in the actual figures.
Of course, we are talking here about the neoliberal economic ideology that dominates near everywhere in the EU/Euro group and its Institutions, ECB, EU Commission etc. – even whilst many mainstream centre or ‘socialist’ labelled parties like to propagandise some difference, they all bought into neoliberal jackboot economics decades ago.
As I’ve said here many times before. This is Macro Economics, not the ‘household’ budget nonsense that most people and ignorant politicians moronically consider applicable.
The macro economy is circular.
If money is removed from the circulation, by budget cutting or otherwise, absent some compensating net Export increase, the result will be increased unemployment and economic stagnation in any economy’s natural tendency to grow, or outright contraction, as in the brutality meted out on the Greek people by the Troika & their compliant former Greek governments (all neoliberal right wing).
The IMF economists themselves admitted, after analysing the the data from the EU/Euro Austerity programs since the 2008 bank Pyramid scam bust, that such policies have been economically destructive & made unemployment and debt sustainability/cost far worse than would have been the case had +opposite+ policies of stimulus been applied.
The only reason this has been brushed aside, and the EU/Eurozone continues to propose such brutal policies be inflicted on Greece, is now entirely a plotical matter – the failure of right wing neoliberal economics policies must be covered up at all costs. And a left of centre party cannot be allowed to demonstrate its better understanding of MACRO economics and be allowed to succeed.
It’s as simple as that now. I really hope Syriza show two fingers to the greedy Capital owner supporting ruling elites of EU/Euro land. And if that means Grexit, then so be it. After some intitial chaos, the majority of Greeks in the medium & long term will without doubt be far better off as citizens again of a sovereign state, not vassals of some unelected Euro elite.
(And Syriza are not at all ‘far left’ as the neoliberal media contends – ‘far left parties don’t have any truck with the futher privatisation of public assets that Syriza has already accepted by way of compromise.)
Syriza are actually offering a balanced solution – a social democratic model where governments actually represent the majority of citizens, not their paymaster Capital owner class minority which is the rest of EU’s gov’s, and Capitalism functions in a properly regulated environment.
But of course, the neoliberal elites are now well aware of this – making the crushing of Syriza – and with it the majority of Greek citizens – of even greater importance to them.
Yeah I get, it it’s somebody else’s fault
Mike,
Assuming the deadlock is not resolved this week, if you catch the next flight you can be there for the fun. Then you can keep all of us up to date on how good a job Syriza is doing. While I agree with Tsipras that there is too much back-room decision making in the EU, the Greek tragedy has been rolling for years and they ultimately have themselves to blame for it. I think the best comparison is Argentina…. see how well they have done by defaulting! I don’t think Tsipras will be so sure of himself when he is referred to as the “Greek Kirchner”.
Yes, that’s precisely the point you are making, anonymous-twitter-one-line-explanation-person –
The authorities have done such a good job in your view, both before the Banks’ bust, and since – same people running it, same ideology, that they couldn’t possibly be at fault.
You might care to reflect that in terms of percentage output lost, mass unemployment, and length of time recovering (still waiting for full recovery now), most of these metrics are twice as bad, or more than those during the Great Depression of the 1930s following similar thinking that also followed a similar Bank Pyramid lending scam.
You might also care to reflect on the various frauds, abuse scandals, initial adamant denials etc. littering the classes of senior Executives, and generally all those in positions of responsibility, control, Capital owners etc. Banks LIBOR rate rigging… Church sexual abuse.. etc … the list is endless.
But… of course Rodmoron…. it’s someone else’s fault eh? ;)
That’s a bit of a stretch there….Church abuse scandals…….I got a puncture last night is that fault of the Rothschilds?, nice word play with my name by the way, when you go into fifth class they will all find you so funny.
Mike,
You want to blame everybody! RESPONSIBILITY….. such a great word! The ultimate responsibility lies with the Greek people on the basis of the elected governments they have put in place. They own it! If they think Syriza is the way to fix their problems, good luck to them, but ultimately that populist bull-crap will just make the hole deeper!
jindublin
But blaming Greece is what the mainstream propaganda has been peddling for the last 5yrs.
No question former Greek governments engaged in fraud and other corrupt practices, even tho’ the majority of Greek citizens – like most majority populations – cannot with any sanity be made responsible on the basis of a Hobsons choice tick on a ballot every 5 yrs. The duty of care lies with the authorities, typically paid 10+ times more than average citizens on the basis of such responsibility.
But these last 5 years, when the Troika programs increased Greek gov debt by around 60% of GDP, much of which money was used to get German, French Banks etc. off the hook holding Greek gov bonds (a bail out for German French etc banks, who’d have thought it?) while Greece complied with Troika economic policies/budgets etc.
The result of which is that Greece is less able to service its debt (regardless of Syriza’s election win, Greece’s program had already failed & was going back to the Troika), and is loaded with even more debt.
The IMF has a duty of due diligence (in theory) to ensure that the prescriptions it provides to borrowers produces debt service sustainability. Don’t forget the IMF/Troika inspectors have been in there every 3 months (just as in Ireland) measuring and confirming compliance with their economics policy diktat.
So the country has been a program (actually a second consecutive programs after the first failed in exactly the same way) for 5yrs, under the effective governance of the Troika, and was already about to run out of finance, in its ongoing collapsing economy – the direct result of Austerity policy (which IMF economists themselves had already empirically confirmed 3 yrs ago.)
Now, tell me precisely why you think the Greeks are to blame… and please do not – like the media morons – simply talk about some vague ‘reforms’ – the Troika program 5yrs ago was based on the expectation that only minimal progress could be made in that timescale on ‘structural’ reforms. The Tax take has been closely aligned with the expectations and assumptions made at the outset of the program by Troika/IMF officials.
What I require you and others blaming Greeks for the present – effectively bankrupt – predicament is to tell us all exactly, specifically which parts of the Troika program prognosis and forecasts they failed on, and the numbers involved?
If you cannot find anything significant (ie totalling at least €5 billion+) , then you, among others are simply parroting the mainstream/right wing neoliberal propaganda, or simply talking out of the crack of your arse.
jinignorant & Rodmoron
Let me try and put it more simply for you – neither of of you seems to comprehend English very well.
Greece has been under the economic management of the Troika for over 5yrs, inspected every 3 months for program compliance. During which peroid, their debt has increased MASSIVELY, whilst at the same time productive output from the economy has collapsed.
We are witnessing now what happens when a Greek government attempts to make different policies to the Troika approved program – funds are witheld until compliance.
Yet, according to you pair of Muppets, the Greek government is the responsible party for this mess?
What part of under the economic management of the Troika program do you not understand? (Morons!)
Where’s the RESPONSIBILITY for the private creditors who lent to previous Greek regimes in the first place? The Greek state got bailed out so they could be paid on their poor investments, an element of the story that ‘s generally – and conveniently – overlooked.
it’s his MO Rod… if Mike Hall doesn’t agree with you or you question anything he utters he resorts to name calling. his arguments don’t stand up so he has to play the man.
Mick Ball, maybe you a simpleton or were dropped as a child I don’t know. Their economy has no basis before the crash, it was falsely inflated by cheap money, you can equate their economy in 2008 with the price of a house in Roscommon the same year.
Mike Hall spouts nonsense and has to resort to name calling. Greece an unreformed economy who’s public sector makes up 40% of it’s overall economy.. Where In the past decade public sector wages doubled. How dare they be asked to reform their broken economy before being bailed out again
It is unusual these days for a puncture given advanced tyre technology. Unless it was a little bare?
How does the amount of thread on a tyre affect it’s ability to maintain pressure
Succinctly put
You’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. (Not that I think you’re capable of offering any facts… you’re only here to bolster a right wing political agenda by making grunting noises about ‘bad greeks’..)
I’ve restated the FACTS of who was in charge of the Greek economy the last five years – once again for you thickos, it was the Troika, not the Greek people – and the results of that.
In following the instructions of the Troika, Greece was supposed to exit the Troika program in a state of growth, recovery & debt sustainability. (Go read the documents…)
Greece did exactly what they were told, inspected on that basis every 3 months (in the same way Ireland was).
The Troika program was an abject macro economics failure, producing the opposite results, making Greece bankrupt again after various German, French etc banks’ bonds had been repaid. (Some say this was the only consideration the Troika cared about – I agree with them.)
The IMF themselves have recently admitted their failure (economics dept. quite clear on this, with a rather quiet ‘apology’ to Greece, largely unreported, from Lagarde.)
These are the facts, but on planet moron of course, something else pertains that they can’t even articulate beyond a few grunting noises….
@ Stephen O’Sullivan
So you’re saying (providing no evidence… not surprised, none exists)…
…that Greece did this, and for 5yrs the Troika’s 3 month inspections didn’t either notice that, or that it (presumably) was wrecking their economy?
You consider that credible? And nobody else noticed either?
Please go and get some coaching on right wing/neoliberal propaganda… that’s about as pathetic an attempt I’ve seen here.
Hey Mike, how’s your debating style going with winning over people to your opinion?
Lol, hey Des… do you consider the couple of line comments from these clowns serious economics ‘debating’ ?
To me it’s just grunting noises from Neanderthal neoliberal zealot propagandists – or just the mentally disturbed.
Not noticed you doing much better yourself….
It’s not fair to put the whole economic contraction down to the IMF measures but it’s true that they certainly they played a part
Greece was turning a corner last year however and was beginning to pull itself out of recession. In the election the majority of people understood this and that is why Syriza did not win an outright majority. This link explains it better than I could
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/greek-economy-contracts-less-than-expected-1.1691750
Mike Hall. You’re a waste of time…
http://www.indexmundi.com/greece/economy_profile.html
The public sector accounts for 40% of GDP and Tax evasion is a “national sport”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion_and_corruption_in_Greece
I do find you hilarious Mike. the splurge of invective and name calling is very creative. your economics is pretty creative too. good to have some creativity – it gives me a laugh. i am immensely glad you are not running our economy however!
Yours is a good assessment see also http://thebottomline.ie/varoufakis/
Thanks rmpc :)
It’s essentially just the truth – as opposed to the establishment/ Capital owner narrative that the various Euro officials and creditor class could do no wrong, and pyramid fraud, predatory lending etc. could not exist & bore no responsibility for the biggest macro economic mess in centuries. (Dwarfing that of the Great Depression in GDP loss and longevity terms.)
It’s also laid bare just how far we’ve come along the road to some 1984 style nightmare without anyone really noticing – certainly no one among an utterly useless mainstream media and academic economists.
All the major parties spew the same neoliberal economics ideology – in fact, spew the same on most topics. The Euro system and the Pyramid bust has ensured the inevitability of rule from Brussels and Frankfurt elites – no meaningful democracy exists.
Yet the muppet progandists on here are trying to tell us that individual voters ticking a single ballot box every 5yrs were thus entirely resonsible for banks’ fraud, (deliberate) lack of regulation, and macro economic management.
The latter, when most citizens (regrettably, and surely no accident) do not even understand that ‘macro’ economics even exists, or is profoundly difference, even opposite thinking, to such stupidity as household analogies – ‘balancing the books’ and other moronic claptrap.
So Mike…your whole analysis is then that it’s all one big conspiracy to enslave people.
You’ve got issues. The insults and name calling you do shows a level of insecurity too
A sound, solid, factual explanation of the problems, and cause of the problems in Greece. Thank you Mike Hall.
Haha and it’s not here!!!???
At least Mike Hall he makes an argument and doesn’t avoid the detail Tallaght Two. He actually informs whether you agree with his take on it or not
Headline puts an interesting spin on what Varoufakis actually said. The real point here is about the democratic deficit at the heart of the EU, privileging financial interests over social.
I’m sure there are plenty of Irish people feeling smug about being The Best Little Poster Child For Austerity In Europe, but they’re in for a land if they think that continuing on as a tax haven with one of the highest debt levels in the world is sustainable.
Plus, while it’s all looking promising now, just wait until after then election, I guarantee that the next government will find a reason to impose another swingeing round of cuts and stealth taxes. The big question is whether the electorate will be bought.
The nerve of those government types, trying to balance budgets with their fancy taxes and stuff.
The nerve of them nationalising €64 billion in private debt and requiring the citizens to pay it, while by the same token hollowing out the services provided by the state to citizens, I think you mean.
Balancing the books via artificial loopholes enabling wide-scale tax avoidance at the expense of other countries.
Dear Jim Brady
Our National Debt is €182,522,767,400 and counting. *
When this crowd took office in 2011 it was €119,000,000,000
Is that what you call balancing the books?
Neo-Liberalism will soon be found out.
*http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php
“Neo-Liberalism will soon be found out.”
Wait, the debt wracked up by borrowing billions to pay for (in the main) public services and welfare is somehow a “neo-liberal” problem?
I would be far closer to the social democrat side of the spectrum, and even I think that’s a ridiculous analysis.
a bit haughy sorry haughty if you think about it
I admire Greece Germany got a big bail out in 1953 after the war and didn’t pay it back, also Britain have the Elgin marbles that belong to Greece and won’t return them
Lorna..your spot on but the west brits will red mark your comment because they dont like the truth.
By “west brit” do you mean somebody you don’t consider sufficiently “Irish”?
I’m a bit confused how you think that relates to the article?
were the Elgin marbles not sold to Elgin by a farmer who thought he owned them, long before The Greeks gave a sh it about them?
I agree Lorna. We really should send all the Mummies in the national museum back to Egypt.
Lorna-you’re spot on and-I’m delighted that your ‘BFF ‘ Denise agrees with you,too .
If we are talking about 1953 why not go back further when Greek armies destroyed and pillaged half the know world , I doubt Alexander paid much compo.
Germany only finished paying back for world war 1 in 2012 I think , paying reparation’s for 98 years.
If you think Germany got away with anything after WW2 you simply haven’t a clue what your talking about, the country was wrecked, women and children murdered in mass bombing raids, i’d say they paid a fairly high price.
Germany had huge parts of it”s country annexed over 12 million Germans kicked out , German Industry was taken over by various parties and profits left Germany. The country was split in two with a wall up until 1990 in-case you forgot.
The Allies confiscated German patents, copyrights and trademarks worth billions upon billions, they pillaged the country.
Even land the dutch got in 1945 the Germans paid compensation for the return of it in 1956.
History is written by the victors.
What exactly is a “West Brit” surely we have become a bit more cosmopolitian by now?
Someone from Wales or the Western Scottish Isles, I presume!
@Lorna
“Britain have the Elgin Marbles”
They have 6 of our counties for the last 900 years, !!!!!
Jim, you fit the criteria
And we invited them in… Hard to say they have the six north eastern counties for 900 years seeing as they really only got control of them after the 9 years war and even then it was another 100 years before they colonised them. Wexford, Wickla and Dublin are another matter… didn’t Diarmaid marry his daughter off to one of them in return for restoring him to the kingship of Leinster… sort of.. bloody traitors
John, go away and Google the good Friday agreement before posting your uneducated nonsense.
@Buckwheat MacMillan
unless you are talking about a ‘Good Friday Agreement’ from over 800 years ago then I don’t see your point ?????
I’m guessing that I could be classed as a ‘west brit ‘ because of my location. newsflash Denise, I can trace my family back over centuries. are you more Irish than I?
@Thomas Aquinas:
Was it as farmer, or the tooth fairy?
Because the tooth fairy selling them, has more truth than your story(ies)…
I love Greece – but when there I remember having to pay bribes for everything. I remember the Government had free transport for workers in the morning. A society’s attitude doesn’t change overnight but if Greece wants to work as an economy it either changes or exits the Euro. I think I’d prefer if it stayed as it is and got out of the Euro
Are people missing the main point here. The Irish finance minister is sent to discuss proposals that he is not allowed to see, then supposedly on OUR behalf rejects those proposals at someone else’s behest and that is called democracy???? We only have to look at what the financial ‘experts’ are doing at home to have very serious doubts about what they are doing across Europe and what exactly their agenda is.
It is most definitely not in the original EU spirit of community building.
You lost me when you said we sent out finance minister to discuss something this is the same turd who hounded Bridget McCole on her death bed. He has no respect for community building.
I think he is only “pretending to be human” ….
Time to leave the EU
why?
why? when a democratically elected finance minister attends an EU meeting and is expected to vote on a proposal that he is not permitted to see or discuss in detail then it is time to seriously question tve whole union at least.
why do you feel the need to implement the standard colonial usage of religion and or ethnicity in a political debate. does it make you feel somehow superior. . in Ireland we know that Noonan and co are the liars and Europhile lap dogs..
Bit ironic how noonan and all the irish politicians are screwing their own nation with their own massive pensions yet noonan feels he can tell the greek finance minister that his own and other greek public sector pensions need to be cut!
And i assume that fg and labour are gonna get some backing, financial or orherwise, from the EU to help them win the irish election, in return for kenny and noonan backing the EU to force through those EU austerity measures, to try to make this broken euro system work, in what is like trying to fit a square block through a round hole.
I thought he was exaggerating when he accused the Irish of feeling mildly superior until I read the smug self righteous comments of some posters here. He also correctly highlighted the democratic deficit that lies at the heart of Europe and hands dangerous control to an unelected, unaccountable elite.
Thats not true at all. We applaud you greeks for having the guts to stand up to the bullys in germany, the EU, IMF. What noonan is telling varoufakus in brussels is totally wrong. Our irish politicians are arseholes. When they were elected, they took the easy route, caved in to whatever demands the EU gave them, and raised taxes and caused woeful austerity here saying they had no choice because FF wrecked the country. I wish we had tsipras and varoufakis representing us in europe because kenny and noonan are bo€&oxes, the only thing they’re concerned abour at the moment is winning the next election.
the debate is being framed before it begins………….do not fall for it.
as a big an issue as greece is there is a far bigger one. that is the viability of the euro itself. europhiles are bankrupting nations in their quest for a federal united states of Europe
the euro is totally unsuited to Mediterranean economies and peripheral economies.
the ecb wants greece to borrow new debt to pay old debt.its a ponzi scheme. a line needs to be drawn under this mess.
the euro area has a huge debt problem and it needs to be addressed the euro needs to be be dismantled in a orderly fashion.
lets say greece got a another bailout…………..a last minute deal or something. that money would only last a few months and this crap would start all over again. debt levels are going up in spain etc and italy the eurozones third biggest economy is in big trouble.
this will end very badly.
We Irish should hang our heads in shame… We as a nation got bullied into paying the European banks back their money. Now we are supporting those same bullies. We should be supporting Greece. At least the Greeks are showing that they have balls. Let’s just say there was no lube used when we took every inch of debt.
The only difference is Ger, we had a strong argument that the debt wasn’t ours to pay. There’s no way the Greeks can claim the same.
the debts not ours and yet we still pay, i don’t think any country would want to claim that.
“We as a nation got bullied into paying the European banks back their money.”
When did this happen, and by whom?
Except we bought average houses for a few hundred k , while 50% of your lazy population paid zero tax, has one of the most bloated civil services in the world , bought several nuclear submarines and spends massive money on the military just incase you end up at war again with a nato ally , printed money to host the Olympics, has rubbish underdeveloped industry and relied far two much on tourism.
As much as I love to see them give it to the ECB and Germania, these clown’s wouldn’t be allowed to run the shop in craggy Island never mind a country.
Oh ya forget cooked the book so they could enter the euro but lets all blame everyone else.
He is right. We are a shower of begrudgers when it comes to it. We have allowed too much happen here and given a green light to the government to ride us more and then like noon an and Kenny talk down about Greece. The Greeks at least will go down fighting what about us no we bent over and took it up the ass
It seems to me there are more experts in Ireland on Greece , than on Ireland. Amazing, and no doubt every one of them has been to Greece, and studied the Country in all it’s facets in depth! Show sympathy to Greece, not unjustified superiority.
Ireland took a difficult path of reforms as told by The Troika,and the whole country took responsibility for banks’failures.Ireland has every right to feel smug.Greek’s finace minister is supposed to be from anti-austerity party,but he must be doing fine if he has a Burberry scarf on his neck,probably costing a week’s worth of a dole in his country,or maybe it is a fake like lots of corrupt people in his own country?
Smug about paying back corporate dept. We should be proud of being total idiots.
Greece have reformed to a greater degree than Ireland has.
Nearly double what we have.
Can Irish politicians judge on corruption. FG and FF have a record that are akin to Sicilian.
rubbish
sorry, rubbish to ‘anne dempsey ‘ eeuchhh
“Greece have reformed to a greater degree than Ireland has.
Nearly double what we have.”
Greece did make far bigger changes… then they elected Syriza who have, in months destroyed all that progress and consigned working class Greeks to even greater misery.
Progress, they were facing another 20 years of decline so that the political construct that is the Euro can continue to throw economics out the window.
and Haughy ‘s shirts and we never said a bloody word…… so easy to feel superior and forget the recent past. classic Irish short term memory and patting ourselves on our (almost shirtless) backs
Everyone is corrupt. Human nature is contemptible. Life is imperfect. We are all going to die. Everything you hold dear is a cultural invention, a myth with no basis in reality.
Deep…
rabble, rabble , rabble…
Do the Greeks have no printers?
At least How can think….. you knee jerk Avina Laafin
So we didn’t pay our taxes. Get over it. Give us a handout please… Ffs
Bye bye, Greece.
maybe the irish government feel superior i would not say the irish people feel superior, paying of other peoples debts we have nothing to superior about unless you think being germanys bit@h is something to be superior about,
Obvious superiority is obvious
Lots of ignorant comments on here
I have been ashamed of our Government and people’s shitty attitude towards Greece, to be honest. Afraid they might get an actual deal, Noonan?
if any nation feels superiority to Greece, its the Faroe Islands, 2-1
@Greeks All Greek people, *Some* of us are looking and *some* of us are seeing what is being done to you, even though #govt #media spin it differently.
*Some* of us know, ok?
Stay strong!
A Greece default will cost Ireland close on Euro 500,000k . In other words half a billion reasons why we’re not all wearing blue and white scarves.
The Faroes have taken 6 points off them in Euro 2016 qualifying so we can feel their pain on different fronts.
we lose over 3 times that through tax loopholes that enable corporate tax avoidance.
A few weeks a go we sold €500 million in Government bonds and destroyed the money we got for them……deleted.
On the 23rd of Dec 2014 we sold €500 million in Government bonds and destroyed the money we got for them..deleted.
€3 billion received for Government bonds in 2012 were also destroyed…..deleted.
We will be doing this every year until 2032 when it will average destroying €2 billion a year……the Greeks are the least of our worries……shake your fist at the ECB they’re burning you money.
@ Seán de Paore No
Ireland loaned Greece €300 million.
WHY did you say €500?
Greece will pay it back, they just do not want to pay it back through austerity. Austerity is preventing spending and a growth in jobs. If they got rid of austerity there would be more spending and jobs and more taxes for the government to have. Our government needs to call for the Eurozone austerity to stop to create more jobs and less new taxes…
Lot of people here are happy to ingrate with whoever is above them on the ladder even if they are still soaked from the same peeing down on them.
Fair dues to his Government it not going to be Frankfurts way
I don’t care what they owe, it was government decisions and the elite that caused the crisis,and ordinary people are suffering for it right across Europe. this has to stop,we are talking about human beings.they might bring that into the equation, or do human beings not matter to mr nonnan and co.
We understand. The Greeks elected their new politicians to do exactly what they are doing ie refusing to be forced into submission. We Irish people did the same remember “Not one more cent” Labours way not Frankfort’sway. We got shafted and the Greeks are a true democracy — politicians doing what the public elected them to do.
More moussaka, anybody………..
One of those scarves with that suit..why should’nt we…?
Remember that these guys could cost Irish tax payers €350m.
How much has the Euro cost all of Europe at this stage.
The continent will take decades to unwind the mess and the decline it has caused.
Who told this government and the last one to loan money to them but the ECB, Why did we do that?
The Journal using such misleading headlines is unhelpful.
There is an important distinction between what’s implied in the headline and what he actually says.
Many are apparently overlooking the validity of the grand scale of the granting of Odious Debt to previously corrupt Greek government regimes. The death of Greece is greatly exaggerated – See also Blog http://thebottomline.ie/varoufakis/
He’s spot on. The Irish ‘superiority’ – we’re still a backward nation thinking we’re great for the smallest things.
I do not know why we have that as we are in the same brown stuff as Greece but this government uses plenty of spin compared to them and we as a nation are too laid back to care. We lost our sovereignty because we do not have our own currency to control, instead of austerity we could have devalued our own currency and created more jobs from that, that is how China created so much employment for themselves…
lost his paddle. back to selling ice cream cones in malta for their financial ‘guru’
Varafoufakis is trying to attack the messenger and deflect from the message
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanis_Varoufakis
I think Yanis would know more about economics that most of the ministers in the E.U. even more than Noonan?
I believe the Greek problem is austerity, austerity was a panic thing done by Merkel in order to look like they were doing something but looks now more like a way to bring in POLITICAL UNION of the E.U.
If one country in the Eurozone that uses the Euro is in austerity then that means we are all in austerity, life would be much better without austerity but austerity was a way to bring in so many new taxes and charges like the property tax and it was the IMF who told us to bring in property tax and water charges, sell Aer Lingus, Free up competition, sell off what the governments owns and all thanks to austerity. It told us to look after the banks and bondholders, what a mess we are in because of it and the euro…
have your say