The West Brits are out to get him? What the hell do the welsh have against McGuinness?

While I do agree with the idea of bringing Sinn Féin into the fold and moving towards them becoming a normal political party, I can’t but feel that there is something deeply wrong with Ireland if the former head of the Army Council can get on a ballot ahead of David Norris.

I find myself in the unusual position of being a supporter of Martin McGuinness and yet I have been called a “West Brit” most of my life. I take it as a compliment even though most people are hopelessly confused and muddled as to it’s meaning.

For those of you who don’t know what a West Brit is, here are the relevant points that McGuinness is alluding to:

> Taking a view of Irish history which highlights perceived positive aspects of British influence in Ireland, or criticizing Irish nationalist rebellions

>Cultural cringe: following British popular culture, while appearing embarrassed by or disdainful of aspects of Irish culture, such as the Irish language, Gaelic games or Irish traditional music

>Opposition or indifference to a United Ireland (see Partitionism) or to Irish republicanism

>Support (or alleged support) for neo-Unionism

I used to follow every twist and turn of the then nascent Peace Process in Ireland in the 1990s and then read pretty much everything there was to read about the conflict in Northern Ireland, euphemistically referred to as The Troubles.

Back then the Irish Times, The Irish Independent and the Sunday Independent were vociferously opposed to Sinn Fein (frequently called Sinn Fein/IRA) participating in talks or seeking any concessions as they were unrepentant terrorists who having failed to bomb and murder their way to a 32 county socialist republic, were now engaged in cynical subterfuge and that the Peace Process was an elaborate ploy and they were incapable of changing their irredentist ways.
John Hume was frequently an object of ridicule and derision in the Irish media for being naive to think that Sinn Fein could be brought in from the cold. The policy back then was Stalinist (not surprising as a lot of Stalinist stickies were in RTE at the time under Eoghan Harris) to literally censor Sinn Fein from the airwaves.

Sections of the media are still hopelessly hostile to Sinn Fein and to them they will always be terrorists masquerading as democrats.

I used to loathe Sinn Fein, the IRA and their fellow travellers, partly because I spent so much time as a teenage reading agitprop from the Irish and British media which was hopelessly flawed, biased, ahistorical and partisan in their coverage.

It wasn’t until I managed to maintain a sober, objective and impartial analysis of the conflict in Northern Ireland that I eventually came to the same conclusion as the presbyterian minister who recently called McGuinness “one of the great leaders of modern times”

Most people accept Nelson Mandela, a personal hero of mine and many others, as an inspirational statesman yet in his autobiography he admitted that as leader of the military wing of the ANC, the Spear of the Nation, he sanctioned a bombing in 1983 which resulted in 19 civilians were killed.

People change and conflicts end. We can either masochistically live in the past and go backwards or move forward to a brighter and prosperous future.

Ireland is now a bankrupt country with huge unemployment & grinding poverty. Tax-payer funded people in the public eye should lead by example.

McGuinness is doing this by offering to take the average industrial wage yet the very venal, rapacious and grasping media personalities and politicians that have the audacity to slam him continue to gorge like greedy pigs at the trough that is paid for by public money.
This is precisely why the media and politicians are demonising him in a concerted effort as the established is simply scared of him.

Oh holy mother of god. For the party with the best media training I am surprised they haven’t operated on his vocal chords to prevent him from saying “West Brit”.
What an utterly moronic statement…

Semantics aside – It cannot be disputed that the media will not give him a fair shake of the whip.

If you read the small print of the Good Friday Agreement, McGuinness reserved his right to use the term “West Brit”.

THIS is the person we want representing us diplomatically? Especially with our closest neighbour and biggest trading partner?

Martin McGuinness for President? Are we all out of our minds? His past as an IRA leader cannot be ignored. This is the IRA who killed and maimed and raked the MONEY in the name of “Republicanism”. Not the IRA of 1916 or of the war of independence. This is the IRA who killed indiscriminately, women, men, children, people who were mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, grandparents, cousins, some of who are still missing in our name. I’m all for peace and the peace process but we cannot put a terrorist as our head of state! Yes he would be our head of state!!!! Come on people a little bit of sanity here! “It is Rank It Smells To Heaven”.

This is not about McGuinness’ fitness for the post or otherwise… it is about him calling anyone Irish who questions his history a "west Brit" … He adds insult to…murder.

So if you suggest that having a former terrorist boss as President is inappropriate, you’re a West Brit? I’m not a West Brit, I just happen to have compassion for the many innocent victims of the IRA and other terrorist organisations. And if Sinn Fein have moved on, why is that they continue to sell IRA t-shirts and other IRA branded items on their website?? http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=303&osCsid=052b149b71f27773fe00420eb5d66864

lol

Calling McGuinness a terrorist is just narcissistic vigilantism. For a start, the word is an increasingly meaningless propaganda term and it is telling that people use it without knowing this.

For a start we have had “terrorists” as taoiseachs and presidents. Michael Collins was a “terrorist”.
The Wehrmarcht used to call the French Resistance “terrorists”.

Actually we have “terroritsts” in government here – here’s a clue, the modern Labour party who are, scions of?The Democratic Left! Who are scions of? The Workers Party! Who are scions of? Sinn Fein The Workers Party! Who are scions of?The Official IRA.
The transition from guns to government happened here too.

As Kofi Annan said, “one persons terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter”.

Or as Brendan Beehan said “Brendan Behan said people who drop small bombs are terrorists; people who drop big bombs are governments”.

Nelson Mandela was called by the US government “one of the world’s more notorious terrorists”.

I would suggest that people here read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky or read his observations about the use of the word terrorist.
If you don’t like reading books here is a nice over-view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model

I would also recommend the book Dinging with Terrorists by Phil Rees – he suggests that the word should be dropped from intelligent discourse altogether.

The IRA were a paramilitary force engaged in guerilla activities during what was called a “low-intensity” conflict. Violence doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
The usual fertile breeding ground of poverty, inequality, state oppression and a lack of genuine democracy are what inculcates it. By any reasonable measure, Northern Ireland of the 60s and 70s fitted this description.

Unlike a lot of the self-serving careerist politicians here where Albert Reynolds notoriously flicked a coin to decide to join Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, Martin McGuinness entered politics out of conviction, idealism and a belief that a better world could be created.
By deciding to volunteer in the IRA it could mean prison or death. Rather different than the a greasy cute-hoor who are out to enrich themselves at the tax-payers expense on the Dail Eireann gravy-train and have bankrupted the country and haved handed over the keys to the ECB and the IMF.

It is easy to sneer and bleat about violence from the comfort of your smartphone in 2011 but you are not an oppressed and impoverished minority in a sectarian dysfunctional state that illegally used violence to suppress democracy.

If any of the useful idiots of the establishment and the golden circles here knew anything (read Ed Moloneys A Secret History of the IRA for a start along with that Chomsky book) they would then realise that both Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.

McGuinness has demonstrated that he is capable of letting go of the past and is capable of creating a secular, inclusive, modern country that values equality for the benefit of all it’s citizens.

Mc Guinness no 1 … best man for. the job …..

Martin’s sounding a little tetchy so early into the campaign, he must know that hes going to get a very rough ride (and rightly so) from those whom are fundamentally opposed to a convicted terrorist seeking the highest office in the land.

yes i know its double standards to say its acceptable to have him in office in NI but not in the ROI but the two are poles apart.

Explain?!

Right, put it like this – rather than have a President who will come out with hugely embarrassing and undignified guff like ‘West Brits’ I may as well vote for my cat who will at least keep his mouth shut.

Why is he alienating swing voters who have legitimate concerns about his past, the only people who use this kind of language or agree with the sentiment are already going to vote for him . Not very wise electioneering

I am 100% Irish and I am proud to be a cultural nationalist. Just because I believe that he is not suitable for the job and question his murderous past does not mean that he has any right to insult me or any other Irishman who is of the same opinion. Great tactic to win votes – not.

I like when people use the term “West Brit”. Sure sign that you’re dealing with an intellectual pygmy right there. It’s the language of throwbacks who would keep us firmly in the past. Most of us bear no ill will to English people and have long shed the chip on the shoulder. Sad that some seem determined to keep banging the same drum even in 2011.

It is disgraceful that he is even being considered. It’s well and good him saying that his IRA membership was ‘in the past’ as if we should forget about it – but what about the victims of his organisation’s campaign?? Should we forget about them too? I’m a republican and believe in a unified Ireland by peaceful means. Mc Guinness should be subjected to a full campaign of media scrutiny and his involvement with the IRA should never be forgotten.

He will never shake the IRA tag but i dont have a problem with him running just like i dont have an objection to Norris running. At the end of the day the people will decide and who knows a few controversial candidates might make people get off their arse and vote this time.

I wont vote for McGuinness purely based on his IRA association regardless if it was in the past or not. Its that straightforward for me.

McGuinness has no formal education and so is unsuitable for President. He trained as a Butcher’s assistant and then applied his trade as a terrorist. There are many suitably qualified Peacemakers available to do the job. McGuinness is just a good salesman with big ideas. He has done some good work in NI but it is as a PR man and a negotiator. We need more than that from our President.

How can there be so much scrutiny of David Norris and not of McGuinness? If he wants to be given the chance to become head of state of this country his credentials must stack up. How could we even consider electing a mass murderer as President of this country? As for talk of “legitimate targets” – that is exactly the reason why every rock of his past should be overturned. This country needs to get a grip of itself.

So apparently if you believe murdering civilians is not a justified method to achieve a political aspiration then you are automatically a West Brit. I better get out my union jack so…

Pat Kenny , yesterday and today on TV and radio . Joe Duffy yesterday – no balance whatsoever by Duffy on RTE Radio 1.

McDowell being rolled out with his blatant blueshift hatred on TV last night, will convert more and more voters towards electing Martin!

Who is Michael McDowell anyway ? and where oh where are his PD’s ?

Keep it up certain Journalists – the more that you scream that he is not entitled to run, the more number ones he will get!

Dick Spring and his Journalist friends tried the same nonsense here in Kerry and got his answer – wrecked his own career and Martin Ferris is now in his third term as a hard working TD.

As a political point…you don’t win elections by rallying your support base. You win it by converting the marginals and undecided. This comment is a bad to start to his campaign.

It’s a pity you can’t change this as there are always a few annoying typos. Anyway……

@ Mack O’Connell – surely you mean working class as opposed to classes? However in Marxist terms,given what is happening to the global economy, we are all working class now. Perhaps you mean the lumpenproletariat?

@ Tommy Tomato This is de-ja vu all over again.Before, during & after the IRA ceasefire the past of McGuiness was combed over by the media & unionists. He was the “godfather of godfathers” in the Provos. And so what?
We’ve already had a precedent of having IRA men who have executed unarmed policemen in cold blood as taoiseachs & presidents.
If you accept the peace process with McGuinness as Deputy First Minister of NI, then logically & morally,you accept him as President.
Why is it acceptable for the Unionist community to be consigned to accepting McGuinness having serious executive powers ( as opposed to the overly glorified ceremonial role that is President here) yet if we are asked to do the same we suddenly find his paramilitary activities distasteful ?

Your logic is actually de-facto sectarian ( I know you are not sectarian personally but your logic is) , i.e, well the Prods up the north can like it or lump it but if we in the south are asked to have a former IRA chief-of-staff involved in the running of the state here…………heavens no!

This country,it’s people & it’s media actually make no sense. Historical amnesia, hilarious hypocrisy & double-standards abound.

Martin McGuinness asked us to judge him on his record as a peacemaker. Well Mr. McGuinness, you also have a record as a terrorist. On many occasions McGuinness referred to the war in the northern counties. If that were the case and there was a war over the 30 years of troubles, therefore mcGuinness should be tried for war crimes under the terms of the Geneva Convention.

I’d rather be considered a west Brit (which, let’s face it, is only an insult if you consider being British to be "bad") than to have blood on my hands.

Also, aren’t the crowd that tend to toss around “West Brit” also fond of calling us Free Staters? Cos they don’t see us as a legitimate country?

Well done Mr. McGuinness on alienating a healthy portion of the electorate you are depending on…….. you’re not getting my vote because I have a good memory and don’t like your old job title, and nobody ever accused me of being a “West Brit” yet.
Never did vote Charlie Haughey either, cos I remembered his old track record.
The wheel is always turning, and if you’re running for public office, expect your past to come bite you in the arse, Norris found that out the hard way didn’t he? Or should we just ignore your personal history?

Higgins is going to win this in a landslide. Not particularly fond of his waffling, but just look at the alternatives.

Er… maybe it’s his history of involvement in the IRA that leads to the consistent references to his history of involvement in the IRA.

No one would question that the IRA engaged in acts of disgusting savagery. It should also be remembered that The Provisional IRA didn’t just jump into existence one Tuesday afternoon in the late 60s because they happened to be bored. They arose from the oppression that was felt in Catholic communities in the North, young people seen civil rights marchers massacred by British Soldiers and many seen violence as the only option at the time. McGuinness is a product of that generation. That does not condone the murder of civilians or bombing but it certainly puts into context the arena the P.I.R.A operated in. It is quite clear that supporting the G.F.A and recognizing the authority of the P.S.N.I and going so far as to call former comrades “traitors” in condemning the murders of British Soldiers and P.S.N.I officers that Mr McGuinness is committed to peace. Both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael’s history is steeped in violence also and people who romanticize the “good old IRA” and condemn the P.I.R.A are hypocrites. McGuinness should be judged on his presidential policies like DeValera was.

Um, Northern Ireland is that part of the UK that’s west of Great Britain.

Mairtin’s from Northern Ireland.

So, the only West Brit around here is himself.

McGuinness is the only candidate that has a criminal record and was found with bomb making material and bullets in his car. He is the only one connected to people that have killed people. Do you want him president?

McGuinness was interviewed on BBC One Northen Ireland last night. Pity many people south of ther border did not see it. He failed utterly to answer the hard questions. It was a disastrous interview by McGuinness.

On the one hand, McGuinness is more than happy to accept plaudits from Protestant clergymen, as the recent SF ard fheis showed, while on the other hand he reverts to old sectarian cliches which were attached to many of the Protestant congregations in the South. The mask slipped for a moment and the old unreconstructed McGuiness popped out. Ah yes, ‘they haven’t gone away’ is right.

People tend to forget how nationlists where treated in the north in the late 60s, and off the roughly 1500 people killed by the IRA 1000 of them where british soilders which where legitamate targets, where as the british army and loyalist organisations killed a far greater % off civilians than the ira

I winced when McDowell last night mentioned once seeing a piece of paper in some folder he was in possession of which suggested that SF were considering running a candidate in this election. How he so readily shared such memories of what he saw while in government.. I wonder if he’d be so willing to share with the public the stuff contained in the files of his own party at that time.. the conniving bollix.

The Northern Bank raid? A West Brit conspiracy as well?

I’m not sure if Sinn Fein actually believe they can win this, but love ‘em or loathe ‘em, you can’t deny that its raising their profile no end. Populist stunts like only taking the average wage will win McGuinness even more support among the working classes.

The BBC have posted a fairly unbiased piece that is well worth a read; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14975944

I suppose I should clarify and say that I am not nor never have been a Sinn Fein voter or supporter.

I would have some admiration for James Connolly but personally I wouldn’t condone or support the IRA campaign of 1916-21 and 1969-1994.
I can of course see the causes of conflict in both though and I would never start screaming in a condescending moralising tone about terrorism and murder. It’s asymmetric warfare.

I can also see glaring double-standards in venerating one and condemning the other and also expecting northern unionists to grin and bear it with Martin in power whilst down here we tut-tut in a disapproving manner at some uppity Nordie.
I can also recognise the characteristics of a manufactured media-witch hunt too when it serves certain interests, like we saw with the reactionary and hysterical lynching by a homophobic and conservative media of an excellent candidate and politician in the form of David Norris.

I also recognise first-rate politician with integrity, idealism and statesman like behaviour when I see it and Martin McGuinness uniquely has it.

People change.

“West Brits” indeed. What next, provonistas daubing Dublin’s walls with ‘West Brits Out’ McGuinness and SF do love a good conspiracy. He just doesn’t want to talk about his past and blaming the ‘West Brits’ for the fact that he HAS a terrorist past is not going to wash. That said I have no problem with him being on the ballot paper and it is highly unlikely he will win anyway. The people will get to have their say and I don’t think language like that is going to endear him to many along the east coast in particular where the majority of the population just happen to live!
He should stick to what he has been doing, far more productive than being president which is really a non job devoid of any power or in truth, real influence in political terms.

Very classy response there yourself

Just wondering if the mc guinness bashing has finished,you have all been dupped again by media controlled hype by the government joe duffy yesterday disgusted me as a so called ind radio presenter,pat kenny today the same .Martin mc guinness is the best person and you lot are only driving the likes of me ,and beleive me WE are the people to get him elected to do so,I was born in NI and have lived here as an Irish citizen for over 37 years and I am disgusted by the coments you have made of a man that ,if it were not for the likes of him we would still not have a voice in northern ireland,we would still be under the controll of extreem loyalists,we would still be supresed by the security services of the RUC,He did wrong,but he was doing a job he had to do to get us were we are today.Give him a chance,like the people of NI did ,the catholics not just sinn fein ,Gerry Adams has proved himself ,Why not him