Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
No second vote if Fiscal Compact referendum is rejected, says minister
“It’s just not going to happen this time around,” Minister Simon Coveney told TheJournal.ie.
8.26am, 2 May 2012
2.2k
80
MINISTER SIMON COVENEY has ruled out running a second referendum should the Irish electorate vote ‘no’ on the Fiscal Compact at the end of this month.
“I don’t see us asking the same question a second time, it’s just not going to happen this time around,” he told TheJournal.ie last night.
Coveney said that a second referendum was taken in the cases of the Lisbon and Nice Treaties because a unanimous decision was needed on those for the treaties to take effect.
Advertisement
“This only needs 12 countries for it to go forward and at the moment it has 25 if Ireland votes ‘yes’, and 24 if Ireland votes ‘no’, so it moves ahead without us,” he said.
“The problem is then that Ireland becomes isolated, we’re on our own,” he added. “Well, we’re in the same category as Britain and the Czech Republic. But if we do need to access the stability fund at the end of next year, we don’t have that option. That creates all sorts of uncertainty in terms of if we should need it, where would the money come from.”
“This is a hugely important vote at the end of this month,” the agriculture minister said.”But if people decide to vote no, we’ll have to accept that and deal with the consequences as the government, that’s our job, it’s a democratic decision.”
Yesterday, Finance Minister Micheal Noonan warned that a no vote would mean a more severe budget in December. Speaking ahead of Tuesday’s cabinet meeting, he said that Budget 2013 would be “dramatically more difficult” following a ‘no’ vote.
During the TV3 referendum debate last night, Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins accused the government of “wielding a big stick” over the electorate in threatening negative economic consequences in the case of a ‘no’ result.
Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article.
Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.
I find it interesting that last year Noonan couldn’t give even ball park figures on the budget 6 weeks before it’s anouncement, but now can predict what he’ll have to do in a hypothectical situation. Neglecting the fact that we are in a four year program with most of what we have to acheive already set out. My only worry is that they may bring in harsher mesures as a punishment. So after we defeat this madness we need to get rid of Europes middle management pretending to be our goverment.
Hey Corky! Maybe foreign rule wouldn’t be that bad! It surely can’t be any worse than Fine Gael/ Labour! Or for that matter, the Mafia we had before them!
The next budget it still gonna leave people poverty stricken, voting yes or no is not really gonna change that. However a yes vote determines that we are all Germanys B***hes and have to do what they say… They could take over Europe by aggression, now they do it by financial blackmail
And we’re off again. Could we all try to be nicer to each other from now? I think there has been a tendency for the no side to dominate proceedings and sneer at/bully anyone who even mildly disagrees.
Last night’s thread was a joke. Oh, I love Mary Lou. She’s fabulous. She’s my queen.
Obviously not. But I’d say that anyone on here last night spamming the place with posts saying Mary Lou was by far the best – when she clearly wasn’t – probably is a Sinn Féiner.
OMG! I’m about to make a pro-SF comment. Next time, scrap Joe Higgins. Bring on Pearse Doherty. Forget about trying to get a balance of parties on the “no” side. The SP isn’t ready yet for big boy politics.
With Pearse D and Mary-Lou, it would of been more of an even fight, I think.
The political spamming is coming from both sides, it’s annoying and it demeans the opinions of those who have decided how to vote but who are party members towing the party line.
A No preference does not make you SF. A yes preference does not make you FG/Labour/etc. Disagreeing with SF does not make you a ” blueshirt”. Less insults, less bullying, more reasoned argument please. When it gets to the level of stoppy ” yer ma” comments, you’re damaging the reputation of the parties you claim to support.
Vote no. Irish people and the rest of our European brethren deserve better than this treaty which is an austerity treaty no matter how you dress it up. Austerity isn’t working for us the people, it is working for the failed institutions which got us into this mess. We bailed out the banks what have we got in return, the debts have somehow turned into sovereign debt which is burden passing in my book.
If we pass this treaty it is simply going to mean this debt is forever a burden on the people and the institutions that “failed” or where “too big to fail” have been let off the hook.
The perpetrators of financial skulduggery within Europe and the wider financial market have yet to be implicated in any wrong doing. No accountability at all for any institution or government in the overall cause of this economic crisis. So setting up the ESM which cannot be implicated and is above all laws is not going to help the problem, if anything it will just increase the debt burden for struggling country’s by compounding the debt. Voting no is one way to voice concern that we are not avoiding the problem of failing banking institutions and we want a better fairer way of solving this crisis.
Who counts the votes, and who supervises it? Are they independently checked afterwards?
Surely if an already corrupt government want a “yes”, then they could get it. It’s like being asked to correct your own maths homework and just telling the teacher you gave yourself an A..
Agreed, I’m bringing a box of Biros with me! Don’t trust them at all, sure they did there damnedest not to give us a vote in the first place.
In regards to the debate last night. Martin was a bully who’s voice was the loudest and could shout over everyone, Mary Lou was the clear winner! Calm cool collected with true information !
Ryan
Martin and Coveneys argument seemed (to me) to consist of repeating the words Certainty an uncertainty as often as possible with a sprinkling of “Nurses, Teachers, Guards” Which I find Ironic considering the damage they have done to these proffesions.
Is it possible to hate this government as much as the last one —-I don’t know it’s close at the minute though
I will not be bullied into voting yes but I think we need to learn as a people what happens if we vote yes or no so we can have no one to blame but our selves and we choose our own course of action to benefit Ireland and not the Germans or anybody else’s political ambition- we are a proud nation of people and I think we have lost a little bit of what makes us Irish – we should stand up for ourselves and show we are not an outcrop of land on the end of Europe whom I get the feeling sometimes european governments wouldn’t care if we were there or not- that’s my feeling anyway
Has no one complained about how disingenuous it is to be calling it the “Stability Referendum”? Oh, so you’re voting no, do you not want stability?
It seems the Irish people have replaced a government that thinks the people are stupid sheep with a government that thinks the people are stupid sheep.
You have to admire their arrogance though :P
Simon Coveney on the news last week saying that this treaty will prevent government from wasting tax payers money….Simon Coveney..a member of a government who willfully breaches salary caps to employ buddies and cronies…..a government who will 70 million of tax payers money on hosting the EU presidency compared to Denmark spending half that….a government that ignored the role of the referendum commission and spent millions setting up a one sided propaganda machine to try sell this austerity treaty purportedly designed to stop such wastage of our money….
maybe it’s a clever ploy, spend as much as possible and then hang the posters up saying – “vote yes to stop us wasting your money”
Wait until schoolyard Bully Noonan puts Simon in his place and tells him otherwise !
Seeing Micheal Martin roaring and screaming during the debate last night, showed that he should be negotiating the obvious amalgamation of what’s left of FF with their natural Right-wingers in FG .
Then we could get rid of all the Bully’s at the Ballot Box – next Election , can’t wait for it !
Don’t think for that matter that the Election can be that far away , as surely Enda , Bully Noonan and his Group ( & the missing Labour Party ) will surely have to call a General Election , if they get hammered in the Austerity Treaty ?
Impartial your right we can only get rid of them at the next election.But i would bet my left arm this shower won’t last the course,the wooble in Labour is starting to take hold.
When is the no side going to present the people of Ireland with a comprehensive set of proposals about how we fund schools, hospitals, social welfare, dole etc. if we vote no.
Ask your government….no wait, they have no plan B…or plan A for that matter, they just prefer to dwell on threats if we vote no……….sometimes I wonder what it would be like too live in a proper democracy where the government represents the people, protects the people and not brow beat or bully them to vote in accordance to what Frau Merkel wants.
You’ll get your answer the same day FG come out and tells us just who the ESM is and why they are allowed set their own rules and be unaccountable to every citizen of europe, every country in europe and nobody will have any right to question them or their fiscal policies…..which is never :P
But at least the No camp are stating facts when they say a no vote will not leave us alone in the world..contrary to FG threats the EU will not cut us loose..they fell over themselves to make sure we covered banks losses to stop any default or contagion, how harmful would an entire country being left to it’s own devices be to their beloved federal EU dream or their beloved currency.
i’m all for economic housekeeping…it’s common sense but I want our elected TD’s to do it, not another shady unelected shower of anonymous bankers or technocrats
Very smart Simon..There will be no second vote on this question….Doesnt mean we wont be voting on another question…Lisbon all over again…I seem to recollect Gilmore telling everyone that cared to listen there would be no second lisbon treaty vote if the first was rejected…Now what ever happened to that particular vote.Yup we voted no however us ignorant voters did not know why we voted no.So we had to vote again.Sorry Simon you and your bedmates have form when it comes to respecting the wishes of the electorate.You dont listen.Your party leader in Germany will send you back to do your exercise again……
Why do people continue to consider that stating facts is bullying? That is spin at its height. So funny last night, if Mary loo had had her handbag with her she would have given joe a whack to shut up his waffle. Martin was passionate and strong and Simon knew when to let him speak. They did great. Mary loo seems to think that the pension reserve fund is a bottomless pit.
Ha!! Blind party alligence, Jesus you all must we’re blinkers, your like robots!!
Martin was a bully last nigh, shouting his way around. He asked joe higgins a question and seconds later shouted at him will you answer the question!!! Well he would of if Martin let him.
Martin looked like was like he was on something, very anxious and edgy!! Maybe he was pissed off that he had to go on live tv wearin girls makeup sprouting lies that he doesn’t believe !!
Vincent of course was the bees knees. Well balanced but do you know something, it’s just a shame Enda didn’t have the balls to go on. What is it? Is he afraid of vinb or is it he’s afraid of tripping over his tongue, either way he no master debater…. Or maybe he is !
We are funded until 2014 by the Trioka.Noonan knows this,he knows he has the funding so why treaten a dracaion budget to secure a Yes.My parents are in their sixties.They were going to vote yes,i don’t agree with but their choice.After that performance yesterday they are now firmly in the No camp.Nice to see Noonan learnt his lesson from when he treatened to drag a dying woman through the courts.
I’m voting no. I’m not going to be swayed by anything Minister Noonan or Minister Coveney or any of the rest of them have to say. I’ve had enough of their waffle and scaremongering. I’m willing to accept short term austerity, if it means that we can get back to living within our means. Even if that means having to grow my own food. The current trajectory is not working. That is abundantly clear. It’s time for something different, even if it’s painful in the short term.
As much as it sickens me to say it, Mary Loo Roll gave a decent performance as did Simon Coveney. Both coming across clearly. Martin gave the best individual performance and as for Joe Mao Higgins, he was deplorable. couldn’t even talk right or answer a question.
I suppose i should have referred to your childish name calling.If you want to vote yes/no i couldn’t care less.As for the debate pointless exercise so early in the campaign.
Pointless name calling, where exactly? Obviously no jesting with you Norman. As for the debate being too early, not really, 4 weeks until polling. The first of many I fear….
Voting no will have consequences. We need to know about them. If they weren’t brought up, ye’d all be here in a few weeks giving out “Oh no-one told us” and saying were Kenny and Noonan were incompetent and should of told ye!!!
Will you be saying the same – “Oh no-one told me that ratifying this treaty will mean enshrining economic law into a sovereign constitution curtailing any chance of growth and we now find ourselves at the mercy of the unaccountable, unelected ESM who now control our budget and who at a moments notice can issue us a directive to cut public spending, close more Garda stations, stop employing nurses, halve your SW payments, increase VAT, bring your corporation tax up…..and not to mention the 11 billion euro, which we will most likely have to borrow as the entrance fee to this ESM…”
Just asking in case you think there will be no consequences for ratifying this.
Another omission from FG is that ratifying this treaty – Ireland as a sovereign nation will never enter the markets again unless marshaled by the unelected elite in Brussels….that is in fact a fact…..do you think we will sign up to fiscal rules and then be allowed go freely into the borrowing markets again?
This “regaining our sovereignty” mantra FG have adopted is as hollow as their threats about bombs going off in Dublin and being thrown out of the EU if we don’t bend over backwards to accept everything the EU tells us.
How wre we to return to the markets if we are locked into a spiral of dept with the ESM? How much confidence will the markets have when we are an asset striped shell with the sole purpose of providing cheep labour units for multi nationals?
Government logic: lets have austerity all round but make sure TDs can have an unvouched expenses regime so they can keep their snouts in the trough. Isn’t that one reason the old Communist regimes fell?
First up I did not watch any of the debates last nite and I am glad I d id n’t because invariably they are nothing more than grandstanding by all concerned! Economically to me its a simple choice do we want to know post 2015 whether our back up source of funding is the ESM and within that framework are the various rules one of which has been written (in purpose I suspect) in such a way that I suspect if the ECJ were asked to intervene as per the agreement to impose fines they probably could not as no one could agree what the rule is. Or do we want to take a chance and see if we do run into difficulty that we can get funding somewhere (and despite what anyone says we probably could get funding). However, the price of this funding would in my view (and others)be horrendous, the bondholders would be burned (everybody cheer now) but the level of austerity on government spending on day to day basic services would be much worse than now and worse than anything that Greece is going through. Give me certainty any day when it comes to finance!
Sean, you are probably not wrong on any of your points .. But i think that the short term harsher austerity that will come from voting no, will be a lot better than the long term austerity (keeping the 70 billion banking debt etc as or own) and EU fines will be much more severe. If the Government were serious about wanting to balance the books for the country, they should immediately look at their own salaries, perks etc .. They are the highest paid Prime Ministers, Ministers, Presidents in Europe… How in Gods name can they be serious about wanting to address our situation while they are paying themselves morally corrupt wages like this? Short term harsher austerity, and longer term stability will be achieved by a no vote. The Harsher austerity will have to be addressed at those that can afford to pay it, ie introducing a third rate of income tax for all earnings over 100k, reducing pension payments for all people receiving publicly funded pensions over 60k per year etc…. The average person will not feel this. I think this is part of the reason so many people are willing to take the risk and vote NO.
Sean I respect many of your points and agree either way is going to hurt. Although I see borrowing E11 billion from the ESM to pay as an entry fee to the ESM so we can borrow from the ESM as not the best first step on the road to recovery. Also if we do re-enter deep resession I would likr our goverment to have the right to decide what actions need to be taken to decide what cuts are needed and where, to have the freedom to invest in growth rather than have an unelected cabal tell us we must keep paying them and keep our spending on our own people down under threat of massive fines which we will not be able to pay. thus accruing more debts.
In the private sector this system was called the “company store” system and has been outlawed in most of the world.
'Only a cigarette paper between them': Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael need to merge, Tóibín says
16 mins ago
180
4
healthy habits
OECD: Irish teenagers smoke less, drink less and exercise more than their European counterparts
31 mins ago
244
0
The Daily Poll
When is the best time to have Christmas dinner?
22 hrs ago
33.8k
58
Your Cookies. Your Choice.
Cookies help provide our news service while also enabling the advertising needed to fund this work.
We categorise cookies as Necessary, Performance (used to analyse the site performance) and Targeting (used to target advertising which helps us keep this service free).
We and our 136 partners store and access personal data, like browsing data or unique identifiers, on your device. Selecting Accept All enables tracking technologies to support the purposes shown under we and our partners process data to provide. If trackers are disabled, some content and ads you see may not be as relevant to you. You can resurface this menu to change your choices or withdraw consent at any time by clicking the Cookie Preferences link on the bottom of the webpage .Your choices will have effect within our Website. For more details, refer to our Privacy Policy.
We and our vendors process data for the following purposes:
Use precise geolocation data. Actively scan device characteristics for identification. Store and/or access information on a device. Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development.
Cookies Preference Centre
We process your data to deliver content or advertisements and measure the delivery of such content or advertisements to extract insights about our website. We share this information with our partners on the basis of consent. You may exercise your right to consent, based on a specific purpose below or at a partner level in the link under each purpose. Some vendors may process your data based on their legitimate interests, which does not require your consent. You cannot object to tracking technologies placed to ensure security, prevent fraud, fix errors, or deliver and present advertising and content, and precise geolocation data and active scanning of device characteristics for identification may be used to support this purpose. This exception does not apply to targeted advertising. These choices will be signaled to our vendors participating in the Transparency and Consent Framework.
Manage Consent Preferences
Necessary Cookies
Always Active
These cookies are necessary for the website to function and cannot be switched off in our systems. They are usually only set in response to actions made by you which amount to a request for services, such as setting your privacy preferences, logging in or filling in forms. You can set your browser to block or alert you about these cookies, but some parts of the site will not then work.
Targeting Cookies
These cookies may be set through our site by our advertising partners. They may be used by those companies to build a profile of your interests and show you relevant adverts on other sites. They do not store directly personal information, but are based on uniquely identifying your browser and internet device. If you do not allow these cookies, you will experience less targeted advertising.
Functional Cookies
These cookies enable the website to provide enhanced functionality and personalisation. They may be set by us or by third party providers whose services we have added to our pages. If you do not allow these cookies then these services may not function properly.
Performance Cookies
These cookies allow us to count visits and traffic sources so we can measure and improve the performance of our site. They help us to know which pages are the most and least popular and see how visitors move around the site. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. If you do not allow these cookies we will not be able to monitor our performance.
Store and/or access information on a device 94 partners can use this purpose
Cookies, device or similar online identifiers (e.g. login-based identifiers, randomly assigned identifiers, network based identifiers) together with other information (e.g. browser type and information, language, screen size, supported technologies etc.) can be stored or read on your device to recognise it each time it connects to an app or to a website, for one or several of the purposes presented here.
Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development 122 partners can use this purpose
Use limited data to select advertising 92 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times an ad is presented to you).
Create profiles for personalised advertising 67 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (such as forms you submit, content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (for example, information from your previous activity on this service and other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (that might include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present advertising that appears more relevant based on your possible interests by this and other entities.
Use profiles to select personalised advertising 66 partners can use this purpose
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects.
Create profiles to personalise content 31 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests, such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
Use profiles to select personalised content 27 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects. This can for example be used to adapt the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
Measure advertising performance 113 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
Measure content performance 54 partners can use this purpose
Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g. reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance, whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
Understand audiences through statistics or combinations of data from different sources 66 partners can use this purpose
Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Develop and improve services 73 partners can use this purpose
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Use limited data to select content 31 partners can use this purpose
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
Use precise geolocation data 39 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Actively scan device characteristics for identification 23 partners can use this special feature
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Ensure security, prevent and detect fraud, and fix errors 76 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Deliver and present advertising and content 85 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Match and combine data from other data sources 62 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Link different devices 45 partners can use this feature
Always Active
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Identify devices based on information transmitted automatically 74 partners can use this feature
Always Active
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
Save and communicate privacy choices 53 partners can use this special purpose
Always Active
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
have your say