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Niall Carson/PA Wire

No second vote if Fiscal Compact referendum is rejected, says minister

“It’s just not going to happen this time around,” Minister Simon Coveney told TheJournal.ie.

MINISTER SIMON COVENEY has ruled out running a second referendum should the Irish electorate vote ‘no’ on the Fiscal Compact at the end of this month.

“I don’t see us asking the same question a second time, it’s just not going to happen this time around,” he told TheJournal.ie last night.

Coveney said that a second referendum was taken in the cases of the Lisbon and Nice Treaties because a unanimous decision was needed on those for the treaties to take effect.

“This only needs 12 countries for it to go forward and at the moment it has 25 if Ireland votes ‘yes’, and 24 if Ireland votes ‘no’, so it moves ahead without us,” he said.

“The problem is then that Ireland becomes isolated, we’re on our own,” he added. “Well, we’re in the same category as Britain and the Czech Republic. But if we do need to access the stability fund at the end of next year, we don’t have that option. That creates all sorts of uncertainty in terms of if we should need it, where would the money come from.”

“This is a hugely important vote at the end of this month,” the agriculture minister said.”But if people decide to vote no, we’ll have to accept that and deal with the consequences as the government, that’s our job, it’s a democratic decision.”

Yesterday, Finance Minister Micheal Noonan warned that a no vote would mean a more severe budget in December. Speaking ahead of Tuesday’s cabinet meeting, he said that Budget 2013 would be “dramatically more difficult” following a ‘no’ vote.

During the TV3 referendum debate last night, Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins accused the government of “wielding a big stick” over the electorate in threatening negative economic consequences in the case of a ‘no’ result.

Translated: The Fiscal Compact rewritten in layman’s terms >

AS IT HAPPENED: The Europe Debate with Vincent Browne on TV3 >

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80 Comments
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    Mute Ann Illing
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:31 AM

    Going to be interesting to see what happens after the Greek and French elections this weekend. Im still voting NO though.

    103
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    Mute John Murphy
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:40 AM

    Massive thanks to Michael Noonan for showing his true colours and convincing so many people to vote No :)

    97
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    Mute Mark Gerard Lochlainn
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:41 AM

    Well thank god for that then…..! They will accept our decision this time round…..! Vote No!

    80
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    Mute Hitthepotthomas
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:38 AM

    No second vote WHEN fiscal treaty is rejected

    78
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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:57 AM

    IF:p

    2
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    Mute Ryan oneill
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:04 AM

    WHEN

    26
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    Mute John Moran
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:38 AM

    Yes, I am still voting no.

    67
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    Mute Sandra Kinnear
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:48 AM

    Is Michael Noonan saying that if we vote yes we will have an easy budget….. I don’t think so… I am still voting NO…

    63
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    Mute B9xiRspG
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:10 AM

    If Enda had a pair of balls he would have fired Michael Noonan yesterday on the spot for those comments!

    39
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    Mute Francis Devenney
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:20 PM

    I find it interesting that last year Noonan couldn’t give even ball park figures on the budget 6 weeks before it’s anouncement, but now can predict what he’ll have to do in a hypothectical situation. Neglecting the fact that we are in a four year program with most of what we have to acheive already set out. My only worry is that they may bring in harsher mesures as a punishment. So after we defeat this madness we need to get rid of Europes middle management pretending to be our goverment.

    13
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    Mute Mark Power
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    May 2nd 2012, 3:22 PM

    @Jim Buckley
    Ends’a balls are secure in Merkel’s purse!

    6
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    Mute corky2004
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:56 AM

    NO to foreign rule. NO to more bailouts for the banks. ITS NOT OUR DEBT.

    60
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    Mute rodrigo detriano
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:37 AM

    Hey Corky! Maybe foreign rule wouldn’t be that bad! It surely can’t be any worse than Fine Gael/ Labour! Or for that matter, the Mafia we had before them!

    6
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    Mute Rachael Doyle Van Os
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:53 AM

    The next budget it still gonna leave people poverty stricken, voting yes or no is not really gonna change that. However a yes vote determines that we are all Germanys B***hes and have to do what they say… They could take over Europe by aggression, now they do it by financial blackmail

    VOTE NO

    49
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    Mute Aidan O'Sullivan
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:47 AM

    And we’re off again. Could we all try to be nicer to each other from now? I think there has been a tendency for the no side to dominate proceedings and sneer at/bully anyone who even mildly disagrees.

    Last night’s thread was a joke. Oh, I love Mary Lou. She’s fabulous. She’s my queen.

    Give it a rest people.It’s fooling no-one.

    37
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    Mute Impartial Eclipse
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:55 AM

    Hear hear! Let SF’s techie wing have a day off. Ye deserve it after last night.

    27
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    Mute Begrudgy
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:02 AM

    Not everyone who will vote no is a shinner. Noonan trained yee well.

    65
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    Mute Jay funk
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:06 AM

    I think the bullying is coming from yes side particularly FG

    55
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    Mute Aidan O'Sullivan
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:07 AM

    Obviously not. But I’d say that anyone on here last night spamming the place with posts saying Mary Lou was by far the best – when she clearly wasn’t – probably is a Sinn Féiner.

    17
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    Mute Impartial Eclipse
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:11 AM

    I’d have given Micheál Martin top marks last night.

    I thought Mary Lou and Simon Coveney were roughly equal. Coveney had better points but ML came across as clearer and more self-assured.

    Joe Higgins. Mess of a performance. No impact. He was a liability to Mary Lou.

    31
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    Mute Aidan O'Sullivan
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:22 AM

    OMG! I’m about to make a pro-SF comment. Next time, scrap Joe Higgins. Bring on Pearse Doherty. Forget about trying to get a balance of parties on the “no” side. The SP isn’t ready yet for big boy politics.

    With Pearse D and Mary-Lou, it would of been more of an even fight, I think.

    19
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    Mute John Conniffe
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:57 AM

    The political spamming is coming from both sides, it’s annoying and it demeans the opinions of those who have decided how to vote but who are party members towing the party line.

    A No preference does not make you SF. A yes preference does not make you FG/Labour/etc. Disagreeing with SF does not make you a ” blueshirt”. Less insults, less bullying, more reasoned argument please. When it gets to the level of stoppy ” yer ma” comments, you’re damaging the reputation of the parties you claim to support.

    15
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    Mute 1 Human Being
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:11 AM

    Vote no. Irish people and the rest of our European brethren deserve better than this treaty which is an austerity treaty no matter how you dress it up. Austerity isn’t working for us the people, it is working for the failed institutions which got us into this mess. We bailed out the banks what have we got in return, the debts have somehow turned into sovereign debt which is burden passing in my book.
    If we pass this treaty it is simply going to mean this debt is forever a burden on the people and the institutions that “failed” or where “too big to fail” have been let off the hook.
    The perpetrators of financial skulduggery within Europe and the wider financial market have yet to be implicated in any wrong doing. No accountability at all for any institution or government in the overall cause of this economic crisis. So setting up the ESM which cannot be implicated and is above all laws is not going to help the problem, if anything it will just increase the debt burden for struggling country’s by compounding the debt. Voting no is one way to voice concern that we are not avoiding the problem of failing banking institutions and we want a better fairer way of solving this crisis.

    36
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    Mute Damhsa Dmf
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:37 AM

    Well said

    8
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    Mute Hitthepotthomas
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    May 2nd 2012, 8:49 AM

    Who counts the votes, and who supervises it? Are they independently checked afterwards?

    Surely if an already corrupt government want a “yes”, then they could get it. It’s like being asked to correct your own maths homework and just telling the teacher you gave yourself an A..

    31
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    Mute mcbab
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:33 AM

    You idiot!

    22
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    Mute Ryan oneill
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:48 AM

    Agreed, I’m bringing a box of Biros with me! Don’t trust them at all, sure they did there damnedest not to give us a vote in the first place.

    In regards to the debate last night. Martin was a bully who’s voice was the loudest and could shout over everyone, Mary Lou was the clear winner! Calm cool collected with true information !

    Vote no its the right thing to do.

    24
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    Mute Francis Devenney
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:32 PM

    Ryan
    Martin and Coveneys argument seemed (to me) to consist of repeating the words Certainty an uncertainty as often as possible with a sprinkling of “Nurses, Teachers, Guards” Which I find Ironic considering the damage they have done to these proffesions.

    8
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    Mute Fergus O'Neill
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:02 AM

    Oh, so we’re skipping the second vote and going straight to the third I guess…

    30
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    Mute B9xiRspG
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:11 AM

    lol

    11
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    Mute Kevin McCarthy
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:49 AM

    I never voted for SF before. Or any left wing party. But I’m voting NO for other reasons.

    25
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    Mute Brendan Peters
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:29 AM

    Is it possible to hate this government as much as the last one —-I don’t know it’s close at the minute though
    I will not be bullied into voting yes but I think we need to learn as a people what happens if we vote yes or no so we can have no one to blame but our selves and we choose our own course of action to benefit Ireland and not the Germans or anybody else’s political ambition- we are a proud nation of people and I think we have lost a little bit of what makes us Irish – we should stand up for ourselves and show we are not an outcrop of land on the end of Europe whom I get the feeling sometimes european governments wouldn’t care if we were there or not- that’s my feeling anyway

    23
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:54 AM

    Keep them threats coming FG…I shall keep them fresh in my mind as i tick the NO box.

    22
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    Mute Damocles
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:54 AM

    Has no one complained about how disingenuous it is to be calling it the “Stability Referendum”? Oh, so you’re voting no, do you not want stability?

    It seems the Irish people have replaced a government that thinks the people are stupid sheep with a government that thinks the people are stupid sheep.

    20
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:18 AM

    You have to admire their arrogance though :P
    Simon Coveney on the news last week saying that this treaty will prevent government from wasting tax payers money….Simon Coveney..a member of a government who willfully breaches salary caps to employ buddies and cronies…..a government who will 70 million of tax payers money on hosting the EU presidency compared to Denmark spending half that….a government that ignored the role of the referendum commission and spent millions setting up a one sided propaganda machine to try sell this austerity treaty purportedly designed to stop such wastage of our money….
    maybe it’s a clever ploy, spend as much as possible and then hang the posters up saying – “vote yes to stop us wasting your money”

    12
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    Mute Damocles
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:26 AM

    Dermot,

    One almost imagines that perhaps Daniel Hannan is some sort of oracle: http://tgr.ph/gGyIfI

    ** Warning link contains opinions of Tory MEP. **

    3
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    Mute Eddie Barrett
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:07 AM

    Wait until schoolyard Bully Noonan puts Simon in his place and tells him otherwise !
    Seeing Micheal Martin roaring and screaming during the debate last night, showed that he should be negotiating the obvious amalgamation of what’s left of FF with their natural Right-wingers in FG .

    Then we could get rid of all the Bully’s at the Ballot Box – next Election , can’t wait for it !

    19
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    Mute Impartial Eclipse
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:15 AM

    Four years. I hope you’re the patient type.

    6
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    Mute Eddie Barrett
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:19 AM

    Don’t think for that matter that the Election can be that far away , as surely Enda , Bully Noonan and his Group ( & the missing Labour Party ) will surely have to call a General Election , if they get hammered in the Austerity Treaty ?

    16
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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:29 AM

    Impartial your right we can only get rid of them at the next election.But i would bet my left arm this shower won’t last the course,the wooble in Labour is starting to take hold.

    13
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    Mute Gerry Ennis
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:13 AM

    We can look to Hollande to ditch this Treaty. Will government still advocate No if he wins on Sunday?

    18
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    Mute Impartial Eclipse
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:17 AM

    When is the no side going to present the people of Ireland with a comprehensive set of proposals about how we fund schools, hospitals, social welfare, dole etc. if we vote no.

    We do need that….like…. yesterday!

    11
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    Mute On the Dole
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:31 AM

    Are you saying the union will not fund us ??

    5
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:34 AM

    Ask your government….no wait, they have no plan B…or plan A for that matter, they just prefer to dwell on threats if we vote no……….sometimes I wonder what it would be like too live in a proper democracy where the government represents the people, protects the people and not brow beat or bully them to vote in accordance to what Frau Merkel wants.

    19
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    Mute Sean Claffey
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:35 AM

    Maybe we could try doing whatever we’ve been doing since the birth of the Republic.

    5
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    Mute Impartial Eclipse
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:51 AM

    Hmmm. I was just looking for a date, folks. :-)

    No need to rant.

    5
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 11:16 AM

    You’ll get your answer the same day FG come out and tells us just who the ESM is and why they are allowed set their own rules and be unaccountable to every citizen of europe, every country in europe and nobody will have any right to question them or their fiscal policies…..which is never :P
    But at least the No camp are stating facts when they say a no vote will not leave us alone in the world..contrary to FG threats the EU will not cut us loose..they fell over themselves to make sure we covered banks losses to stop any default or contagion, how harmful would an entire country being left to it’s own devices be to their beloved federal EU dream or their beloved currency.
    i’m all for economic housekeeping…it’s common sense but I want our elected TD’s to do it, not another shady unelected shower of anonymous bankers or technocrats

    11
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    Mute Denis
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:05 PM

    Well I guess the no side don’t have an answer to that.

    2
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:23 PM

    And the yes side have Denis?
    threats and subjugation are not valid replies

    6
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    Mute Denis
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    May 2nd 2012, 1:16 PM

    I stand corrected Richard Boyd Barrett has a proposal, he would introduce 10 billion in extra taxes if we vote no.

    1
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 4:11 PM

    “I stand corrected Richard Boyd Barrett has a proposal, he would introduce 10 billion in extra taxes if we vote no.”

    Minister Noonan says the same thing, who said there’s no connection between government and opposition?

    1
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    Mute Martin Smith
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    May 2nd 2012, 11:47 AM

    Very smart Simon..There will be no second vote on this question….Doesnt mean we wont be voting on another question…Lisbon all over again…I seem to recollect Gilmore telling everyone that cared to listen there would be no second lisbon treaty vote if the first was rejected…Now what ever happened to that particular vote.Yup we voted no however us ignorant voters did not know why we voted no.So we had to vote again.Sorry Simon you and your bedmates have form when it comes to respecting the wishes of the electorate.You dont listen.Your party leader in Germany will send you back to do your exercise again……

    9
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    Mute mcbab
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:39 AM

    Why do people continue to consider that stating facts is bullying? That is spin at its height. So funny last night, if Mary loo had had her handbag with her she would have given joe a whack to shut up his waffle. Martin was passionate and strong and Simon knew when to let him speak. They did great. Mary loo seems to think that the pension reserve fund is a bottomless pit.

    9
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    Mute Ryan oneill
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    May 2nd 2012, 9:59 AM

    Ha!! Blind party alligence, Jesus you all must we’re blinkers, your like robots!!
    Martin was a bully last nigh, shouting his way around. He asked joe higgins a question and seconds later shouted at him will you answer the question!!! Well he would of if Martin let him.
    Martin looked like was like he was on something, very anxious and edgy!! Maybe he was pissed off that he had to go on live tv wearin girls makeup sprouting lies that he doesn’t believe !!
    Vincent of course was the bees knees. Well balanced but do you know something, it’s just a shame Enda didn’t have the balls to go on. What is it? Is he afraid of vinb or is it he’s afraid of tripping over his tongue, either way he no master debater…. Or maybe he is !

    20
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:05 AM

    i bet you think you’re hilarious spelling Mary lou’s name as loo.

    13
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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:21 AM

    We are funded until 2014 by the Trioka.Noonan knows this,he knows he has the funding so why treaten a dracaion budget to secure a Yes.My parents are in their sixties.They were going to vote yes,i don’t agree with but their choice.After that performance yesterday they are now firmly in the No camp.Nice to see Noonan learnt his lesson from when he treatened to drag a dying woman through the courts.

    21
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    Mute Liam Ó Broin
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    May 2nd 2012, 1:46 PM

    I’m voting no. I’m not going to be swayed by anything Minister Noonan or Minister Coveney or any of the rest of them have to say. I’ve had enough of their waffle and scaremongering. I’m willing to accept short term austerity, if it means that we can get back to living within our means. Even if that means having to grow my own food. The current trajectory is not working. That is abundantly clear. It’s time for something different, even if it’s painful in the short term.

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    Mute Liam Ó Broin
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    May 2nd 2012, 1:48 PM

    Feck. I posted this on the wrong article. It was supposed the go on the page with the poll. DOH!

    3
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    Mute toorkeel
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:14 AM

    As much as it sickens me to say it, Mary Loo Roll gave a decent performance as did Simon Coveney. Both coming across clearly. Martin gave the best individual performance and as for Joe Mao Higgins, he was deplorable. couldn’t even talk right or answer a question.

    8
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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    May 2nd 2012, 11:05 AM

    Nice to see no bias in your spelling abilities.

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    Mute toorkeel
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:10 PM

    Call it as I saw it Norman…debate didn’t change ny mind, just reaffirmed what I will he voting

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:48 PM

    I suppose i should have referred to your childish name calling.If you want to vote yes/no i couldn’t care less.As for the debate pointless exercise so early in the campaign.

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    Mute toorkeel
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    May 2nd 2012, 7:57 PM

    Pointless name calling, where exactly? Obviously no jesting with you Norman. As for the debate being too early, not really, 4 weeks until polling. The first of many I fear….

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    Mute Aidan O'Sullivan
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:06 AM

    Threats….threats. Maybe they’re actual facts.

    Voting no will have consequences. We need to know about them. If they weren’t brought up, ye’d all be here in a few weeks giving out “Oh no-one told us” and saying were Kenny and Noonan were incompetent and should of told ye!!!

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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:29 AM

    Will you be saying the same – “Oh no-one told me that ratifying this treaty will mean enshrining economic law into a sovereign constitution curtailing any chance of growth and we now find ourselves at the mercy of the unaccountable, unelected ESM who now control our budget and who at a moments notice can issue us a directive to cut public spending, close more Garda stations, stop employing nurses, halve your SW payments, increase VAT, bring your corporation tax up…..and not to mention the 11 billion euro, which we will most likely have to borrow as the entrance fee to this ESM…”
    Just asking in case you think there will be no consequences for ratifying this.

    16
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    Mute Impartial Eclipse
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    May 2nd 2012, 10:36 AM

    They won’t have that power if we’re able to borrow ourselves as a sovereign state again on the international markets.

    We will have a much better chance of that if we have the ESM as back up because lenders will see we’re less of a. risk.

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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    May 2nd 2012, 11:52 AM

    Another omission from FG is that ratifying this treaty – Ireland as a sovereign nation will never enter the markets again unless marshaled by the unelected elite in Brussels….that is in fact a fact…..do you think we will sign up to fiscal rules and then be allowed go freely into the borrowing markets again?

    This “regaining our sovereignty” mantra FG have adopted is as hollow as their threats about bombs going off in Dublin and being thrown out of the EU if we don’t bend over backwards to accept everything the EU tells us.

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    Mute Francis Devenney
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:46 PM

    How wre we to return to the markets if we are locked into a spiral of dept with the ESM? How much confidence will the markets have when we are an asset striped shell with the sole purpose of providing cheep labour units for multi nationals?

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    Mute Gerry Ennis
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:59 PM

    Government logic: lets have austerity all round but make sure TDs can have an unvouched expenses regime so they can keep their snouts in the trough. Isn’t that one reason the old Communist regimes fell?

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    Mute Nigel O'Neill
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    May 2nd 2012, 2:23 PM

    This is coming from the same guy who championed “Lisbon 1 and 2 for Jobs” !!

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    Mute Sean Norris
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:15 PM

    First up I did not watch any of the debates last nite and I am glad I d id n’t because invariably they are nothing more than grandstanding by all concerned! Economically to me its a simple choice do we want to know post 2015 whether our back up source of funding is the ESM and within that framework are the various rules one of which has been written (in purpose I suspect) in such a way that I suspect if the ECJ were asked to intervene as per the agreement to impose fines they probably could not as no one could agree what the rule is. Or do we want to take a chance and see if we do run into difficulty that we can get funding somewhere (and despite what anyone says we probably could get funding). However, the price of this funding would in my view (and others)be horrendous, the bondholders would be burned (everybody cheer now) but the level of austerity on government spending on day to day basic services would be much worse than now and worse than anything that Greece is going through. Give me certainty any day when it comes to finance!

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    Mute Cal Mooney
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    May 2nd 2012, 12:44 PM

    Sean, you are probably not wrong on any of your points .. But i think that the short term harsher austerity that will come from voting no, will be a lot better than the long term austerity (keeping the 70 billion banking debt etc as or own) and EU fines will be much more severe. If the Government were serious about wanting to balance the books for the country, they should immediately look at their own salaries, perks etc .. They are the highest paid Prime Ministers, Ministers, Presidents in Europe… How in Gods name can they be serious about wanting to address our situation while they are paying themselves morally corrupt wages like this? Short term harsher austerity, and longer term stability will be achieved by a no vote. The Harsher austerity will have to be addressed at those that can afford to pay it, ie introducing a third rate of income tax for all earnings over 100k, reducing pension payments for all people receiving publicly funded pensions over 60k per year etc…. The average person will not feel this. I think this is part of the reason so many people are willing to take the risk and vote NO.

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    Mute Francis Devenney
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    May 2nd 2012, 3:05 PM

    Sean I respect many of your points and agree either way is going to hurt. Although I see borrowing E11 billion from the ESM to pay as an entry fee to the ESM so we can borrow from the ESM as not the best first step on the road to recovery. Also if we do re-enter deep resession I would likr our goverment to have the right to decide what actions need to be taken to decide what cuts are needed and where, to have the freedom to invest in growth rather than have an unelected cabal tell us we must keep paying them and keep our spending on our own people down under threat of massive fines which we will not be able to pay. thus accruing more debts.
    In the private sector this system was called the “company store” system and has been outlawed in most of the world.

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    Mute Brian O' Brien
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    May 3rd 2012, 9:30 PM

    Yeah no seems to be way to go, f@@ked for ever, we love that position.

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    Mute Thomas Fitzgerald
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    May 2nd 2012, 3:01 PM
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