Grief-stricken Odessa "reeling" after 42 die in clashes

Little Things called the UN the IMF and the biggest economy’s in world. Maybe not whole world if you want to be technical but the parts of the world with most economic clout. So as good as.

The UN?Lol.It;s a talking shop,little more.
‘ the biggest economy’s in world’
You mean China?They just overtook the USA as the world’s biggest economy.Yeah they just happen to be a strong ally of Russia.

Being a SF supporter you could say the very same about Ireland.

Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is to Russia as Northern Ireland is to the Republic.

They are not going to give in that easily

So P O Neill you think the killing of dozens of unarmed civilians by a fascist mob is a signal that Russia is showing aggression? That’s the imperialist world of the US and UK your living in and supporting. But only the Ukrainians will suffer if there is a civil war. Time for both US/UK and Russia to fix this problem and both stop using it for their own geo political self interests.

Typical shinner bot garbage. You supported the Nazis during WW2 now you support their descendants in 2014.

I can’t remember it but when exactly did Sinn Fein become mainstream garbage, as bad as Fianna Fraud, Liebour and the Blueshirt Ba$tards now, guess thats why the nickname Shame Fail was coined.

I did say in an earlier article that SF is left leaning. It does have its extreme right wing elements. The post by PO Neill proves this.

Nicole, P O’Neill was against SF and the peace process. The account here with P O’Neill and the SF logo is a paradox. There is no way you can associate SF to this commenters profile or attitude. I say that clearly as someone who converted to supporting SF 4 years ago.

The EU, US and allies pretty much do make up the whole economic world..what world do you live in??

Little Things called the UN the IMF ”
– UN is a talk shop – it showed its teeth when it came to Iraq -
– and IMF is one of Russias best allies – it destroys countries – and will destroy the Ukraine – not that US cars – that’s what IMF is there for – to destroy countries – and put US political agenda in place .
And as has been said China is now set this year to be world s biggest economy – and comparing the indebtedness of Russia and China v US and EU – its a no contest . In an economic war – there can only be one winner – the countries with resources – eg Russia and China .
But US wants a civil war in Ukraine – and looks like they may get it .
re Chinas economy
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/china-poised-to-pass-us-as-world-s-leading-economic-power-1.1778656
So yankeeland will soon be No.2 .

what world do you live in??”
– question is what world do u live in . US and EU bust – and China this year will be world biggest economy – and don’t forget S America – and Russia and Africa .

The days of US/EU – = world or world opinion are gone
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/china-poised-to-pass-us-as-world-s-leading-economic-power-1.1778656

That’s for the clarification Cal. Good to know and glad to hear it

“Thanks”

Infidel – I wouldn’t be so sure about China and Russia being close allies. They’ve both threatened each other with military force in recent months and the situation at present could best be described as an uneasy stand-off.

Cal thanks for the info. Apologies to Sinn Fein one sick nut can’t be responsible for an entire party.

Agreed riddle

Avina, Russia and China have threatened each other with military action, really? Links please?

In reality, relations between Russia and China have never been stronger, especially since Xi Jinping became president. He reportedly has a close working relationship with Putin. His inaugural foreign trip was to Russia, and he was there again recently for the Sochi games opening ceremony.

Rather than ‘threatening’ each other, there’s been unprecedented military co-operation, including taking part in the largest joint military and naval drills in the history of the People’s Liberation Army. Later this month, for example, the two nations are planning to carry out joint naval drills in the East China Sea.

There’s also reports that the two nations are currently negotiating their largest ever defence agreement. Russia is apparently about to begin selling China submarines, fighter jets, and air and missile defence systems, all of which would strengthen China’s military position greatly.

And that’s without mentioning their energy ties. Only last year, a 25-year deal was reached to double Russia’s natural gas exports to China. There are also rumours that, after a decade of talks, a deal is close to being reached over a massive 30-year gas deal, which would involve the construction of a pipeline between the countries.

Historically, Sino-Russian relations have never been better.

Avina china will become what Saudi Arabia became to the US. China are a huge energy hungry country and in order for them to move on up they need energy, lots of it. Thats where Russia comes in, and unlike the US or EU it understands communism and the Chinese system. Long story short, Russia and China are about to become lovers.

China isn’t supporting Russia’s actions in the Ukraine though. When the Security Council voted to condemn the Crimean referendum, only Russia voted against. China abstained. China and Russia are normally allies but even China isn’t backing Russian foreign policy in Ukraine.

China’s reasons for abstaining likely had little to do with the actual situation in Crimea, and everything to do with not promoting separatist movements within it’s own borders. It’s classic pragmatic China, especially considering that security council votes are almost entirely symbolic and achieve little.

I’ve been searching for evidence of Russia and China threatening each other militarily recently.

As I expected, such evidence doesn’t exist.

What a ridiculous, ill-informed analogy.

Aye I had the same suspicions meself whitefang, and this is from Avina who bleats on about evidence and proof etc. to back up claims made…lol

Its also a lot to do with China’s ideology in foreign policy. China is highly noninterventionist. Its very consistent on this, refusing to support American ‘nation building’ or recognize the independence of Abkhazia or South Ossetia.
Its a similar situation to the Us and France.
China is normally a Russian ally on the Security Council but even China gets exasperated on Russian foreign policy.

Yes, and China’s non-interventionist policy is rooted in a desire to protect it’s territorial integrity and to prevent the numerous separatist movements within it’s borders from gaining traction.

None of that takes away from the fact that China is a strong economic and military ally of Russia.

The idea that the ‘entire world’ is going to isolate Russia is farcical. Most of Asia and Latin America is a stronger ally of Russia than the US or Europe. Of course, to many in the US and Europe, the US and Europe is the entire world, so I can see how they might think that.

Fair enough, I was mistaken about specific threats in recent months, but the point stands that the Sino-Russian relationship can be seen as a marriage of convenience with China increasingly holding the balance of power in that relationship. China still maintains a territorial claim over Russia’s Far East, and has never been afraid of displays of force designed to show Moscow that their relationship is one based on selfish practicalities alone rather than on any particular allegience to Russia. Its unwillingness to give Russia unwavering backing and instead remaining neutral on many conflicts involving Russia is also an indication of the coolness of their relationship.

“To military observers, the Beijing/Shenyang exercises seemed to be practice for a possible offensive operation against Russia, because exercises on such a scale are undertaken only at the final stage of a multi-year programme to train troops to enact specific strategic and operational plans. The geography of the exercises, and the offensive nature of the tasks undertaken, leaves little doubt that Russia was cast in the role of “potential adversary”. Such a show of force is an ancient, traditional Chinese political technique”.
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/china-s-threat-to-russia

Its normally a Russian ally due to a shared opposition to US hegemony but this is conditional. Russia is very isolated in its actions in Ukraine. Alone in the Security Council and with little support in the General Assembly.

They’re allies but Russia is on its own in Ukraine.

Avina, did you really just post a link from 2007 to bolster your argument? Strangely enough, a lot had changed since then.

Russia and China have, in recent years, been engaging in unprecedented military co-operation. Only last year, the People’s Liberation Army took part in the largest joint military drill in it’s history- with Russia, of the coast of Vladivostok. This month, the two nations will be carrying out joint naval drills in the East China Sea.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA3T0WK20140430?irpc=932

If China was a threat to Russia, do you think Russia would be selling them their most advanced weapon systems?

http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/putin-approves-sale-of-s-400-to-china/

Or attempting to sign massive energy agreements? Expect the gas deal to be announced when Putin visits China later this month.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA3D0R220140414?irpc=932

Opinion pieces from 2007 notwithstanding, relations between Russia and China have never been stronger.

Why are my comments not appearing?

Avina, did you really just post a link from 2007 to bolster your argument? Strangely enough, a lot has changed since then.

In recent years, Russia and China have been engaging in unprecedented military cooperation. Only last year, the People’s Liberation Army took part on the largest series of joint military drills in it’s history- with Russia, off the cosy of Vladivostok. Later this month, the two nations will take part in joint naval drills in the East China Sea.

If China was really a threat, do you think Russia would be agreeing to sell them their most advanced defence systems?

Or attempt to sign a massive energy agreement with them? Expect the has deal to be announced when Putin visits China later this month.

Opinion pieces from 2007 notwithstanding, Sino-Russian relations have never been stronger.

I had included three links in that comment, but every time I tried to post it with the links attached, the comment disappeared. Strange, to say the least.

Whitefang, seven years is a blink of an eye in geopolitical terms. I have already acknowledged that I was incorrect in the detail (I originally read it in a comment on here which I now accept was wrong).

The substantive point remains however – China is a very practical state and will do whatever is good for China regardless of what that means for Russia. Russia cannot rely on the blanket support of China unless it is also in China’s interests. They are more like uncomfortable bedfellows than close allies.

Seven years is a blink of an eye in geological terms. In geopolitical terms, it’s seven years. And seven years is a long time.

Seven years ago the US had GWB in office and was increasing the number of troops in Iraq, Russia was dealing with an energy dispute in Belarus and an insurgency in Chechnya, China was experiencing the largest series of protests since Tiananmen Square in ’89, Ukraine held early parliamentary elections and Yanukovych’s Party of Regions came out on top, and protests were growing in Georgia.

Since then, almost everything has changed. Sino-Russian relations in 2007 are almost unrecognisable compared to the same relations in 2014.

And of course it’s an alliance of practicality- essentially all political alliances are, especially in pragmatic China. That doesn’t take away from the strengthening ties between the two nations.

Only 1 link per comment now I think Whitefang.

I agree with some of what you say Whitefang. The geopolitical situation on the ground can sometimes change very quickly – we need look no further than Crimea. The point I’m making though is that attitudes and mindsets take decades to change, as we know only too well in the North.

Sure, China will support Russia if it also benefits them, but Russia cannot and should not rely on unwavering Chinese support whatever the issue – they won’t always get it.

Thanks, Joe. That’s a strange policy, I must say.

Avina, nobody, especially not Russia, is claiming that Russia can rely on ‘unwavering’ support from China. Russia is fully aware that it’s an alliance of convenience and that China will only act as an ally for as long as it benefits them. That’s the purpose of these military drills and defence and energy agreements- to strengthen the alliance by benefitting both sides.

Russia has far more to offer China than the US or Europe, especially considering the strong ties between the US and Japan, China’s greatest enemy.

The analogy made by a previous poster comparing Russia and China’s relationship to that of the US and Saudi Arabia is a good one. Whatever their differences, both sides in that alliance gain a great deal. The same can be said of Russia and China.

Well on that we’re agreed Whitefang.

Perhaps I haven’t been making it very well, but my point is that China has always done what’s good for China regardless of who it affects and what the rest of the world thinks. That hasn’t changed and is unlikely to change in the near future.

China will support Russia on a particular issue if and only if Russia’s position carries some benefit for China too.

The jury is still out on whether Russia’s actions in Ukraine meet this criteria and have China’s approval, as evidenced by their recent decision to abstain rather than vote in support of Russia on the issue.

I agree the analogy between the US and Saudi Arabia is a good one.

Relevant to what you state above, a large political and business delegation visited the German capital recently, the “Silk road project “being their main topic of discussion. The Gas pipelines from Russia should be operative in about 6 months to one year. Both countries China and Russia are very anxious to include Germany in this “Silk road project” Watching a lot of German TV, reading German newspapers and speaking with a lot of business people the last few weeks it is very obvious that the great majority are against sanctions, despite some lip service by some politicians under enormous pressure from the US. They do not want to have any problems with their third largest trading partner , and definitely do not want to import (Ship) very expensive shale gas from the USA. All around they are hopeful that everybody can sit together in the very near future, all four parties, to solve this enormous problem caused by the illegal coup. China is of course the laughing third party here at the moment . Angela Merkel visited Washington on Friday to discuss the current problem in Ukraine among other problems She is under enormous pressure from German business leaders , Siemans, VW. Mercedes, EON etc not to allow German industrial interests be sacrificed to USA Geopolitical and Wall street interests.Read in “Der Spiegel” tomorow

Question for Ukrainians who want to be annexed by Russia: if Russia is so great, why are there thousands of them trying to get into our little bankrupt country every week?
Question for Russian ministry of education, do you really award degrees in thuggery, extortion, pimping, drug dealing and gangsterism? If so it would seem that the crème de la crème of your alumni have arrived here in Ireland.
Question For Alan Shatter, at what point will the need to protect Irish citizens from the violence and intimidation of Eastern European organised criminals, be a sufficiently pressing issue for you to tackle Ireland’s immigration crisis?

@ Sean Kelly : please try to educate or at the least enlighten yourself.

Sure Rian. Those murdered by Pravy Sektor on the maidan, it was political. The people of Crimea seceded from Kiev after their president was ousted in a coup, that’s why it’s all Putins fault lol

@rian The ascension of Crimea into Russia was not an invasion! It is made up of 97% Russians and they VOTED to join Russia.
Please stop believing everything you hear on RTE news.

How are foreign troops invading a country not an invasion!

Rian they didn’t invade. They already had troops there are per agreement. And the local defence forces rose up. And finally 75% of the Ukrainian military including their naval commander, defected to the Russian side. It was no invasion.

Yes but the treaty didnt say they could besiege and storm Ukrainian military bases did it. I mean the Crimea didn’t float off and become a seperate nation

Give it a rest with facile Ireland Ukraine comparisons they don’t translate.

‘ Plus Russia is stoking up tensions and there will sadly be incidents where thise criminally included will do bad things when they see their country invaded which it has been by military advisors and weapons from Russia. ‘

Funny you say that, notorious anti-Putin Guardian journalist Luke harding whose on the ground in Donetsk seems to think most of the separatists are locals.Listen you told us yesterday you went on a back packing holiday in Western Ukraine,I’m sure you had some nice chats with local people there about the ‘SS butcher Bandera who is a hero in those parts,but it does not make you a political expert on Ukraine,and you seem all too willing to forgive the excesses of right wing nationalist thugs to justify your own viewpoint.

Yea cause every other country the US has gone into help has ended soo well.

All sides here are to blame, but Russia, seeing an organisation like NATO setting up shop on their door step have a right to take a proactive approach in my opinion.
Those people were told to leave that government building, they didn’t and this is what happens, its sick. I don’t care what side you are on this should not happen.

The US started this whole thing, everyone who doesn’t rely on their news from FOX, CNN and other western news outlets(if you can even call them that) knows this. And that’s probably why you are seeing pro Russian support or talk here, people understand what is going on and not just believing what they are told.

Bandera fought the Germans and the Soviets. He was in Nazi captivity in 1941-44.

http://news.yahoo.com/cia-fbi-agents-advising-ukraine-government-report-101508429.html

The US is now making a habit of backing the wrong horse.First the head-chopping cannibal zombies in Syria,now Nationalist far-right thugs in Ukraine.All to advance the cause of democracy of course.

European Infidel…..The Reason that the US is now making a habit of backing the wrong horse is because it is controlled by an evil Government that has strayed away from serving the interests of its own people. ….Just like what happened in Germany in the 1930′s and 40′s

Democracy and freedom. Just like in the US!!!!!

European, there is no support from over here for this kind of violence.

Declan I am hearing 90% of Americans are against US involvement in Ukraine. Is it true? Begs the question about who is in charge over there?

Riddle, I have not read any polls. Tell that to Nicole who’s brainwashed herself into thinking that the US is one way or the other.
She, you and others need to get some perspective on what the thinking is over here about Ukraine. Obviously the Obama administration is showing support for Ukraine but it’s a stretch to say that they want to see violence.

Declan I appreciate your perspective. However, before being so sure about what Obama and his gov, consider the neocon objectives if “full spectrum” US dominance. And that Russia cannot ever be allowed to act as a “constraint” on US hegemony. That’s not my opinion that’s the Wolfowitz doctrine. Obama came to power promising “hope and change” but things are getting worse. And we see neocons like Nuland plotting a coup. And we see “US democracy” coming this time to Europe in the form of fascist mob rule. It’s not just my opinion check out former assistant treasury secretary Paul Craig Roberts article below. I know American people don’t want violence but their government absolutely does. Again, it’s not just my opinion even Henry Kissenger and Pat Buchanan are against this and say demonising Russia is madness and not a policy. Do take at look at PCR “father of Reaganomics” article here. http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/05/02/washington-intends-russias-demise-paul-craig-roberts/

Riddle, so you acknowledge that there is a difference of opinion over here about Ukraine. Again, please let Nicole know. She paints everything in black and white.
Now, I’m going to enjoy my Sunday off.

Shooting at people who try to escape from the flames in Odessa.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=09c_1399151796#rDL78gUgFlZRLCRG.99

Pat, that video speaks a thousand truths that you will not see on any western news channel. It defies the lies and propaganda that is being spewed out by anti-Russian media stations. P O’Neill, do the anti-Kiev protesters in that video look like a group who deserve to be burn’t alive?

Joe, after watching that video segment, IMO the Russian army must intervene.

I know Cal, all the western propagandists are saying they don’t know who started the fire or who were responsible. It’s comical at this stage, their denials remind me of Comical Ali in Iraq. Between the video Joe and I put up you very clearly see who attacked who, who set the building on fire, and how the people were trapped inside the building with those on the outside shooting at them as they escaped.

I know the protestors on the other side are no angels and caused deaths themselves but enough of this bullsh*t if the bad pro Russian protestors and good pro Maidan protestors. They both have plenty of lunatics in their ranks. How are Irish people so gullible to not see what it going at!

Sickening how some people like James and others on these threads can justify these deaths to suit their personal narrative.Just admit it Yat’s let his Fascist mad dogs Right Sector off the leash.38 people got roasted alive as a result and people like him and others on here are still trying to make facile Ireland Ukraine comparisons.

Don’t be so ridiculous, the whole thing needs deescalation not an invasion, many more innocent lives will be destroyed, they need to round up the cowboys on both sides and lock them all up for life.

Pat oh yes I agree hence why I said id not believe off hand any reports as im well aware how bad the smaller nationalist element can be and that should be investigated. There was petrol bombs on both sides and anyone who is identified should be jailed. Simples.

Oddessa was known for a while to have a large Russian leaning population so its a good place to go for a fight if your a toerag nationalist. That movement is small infact dwarfed by maiden movement. But in the chaos tgey are going to do what criminals do best. Commit crimes.

It’s pointless talking to James. His views will not change even if he looks at the video. He spreading the propaganda that the ethnic Russians and the trade union staff started the fire from inside. How could they have had time after they were chased to buy petrol and bottles. I’m not reading James comments anymore because his support for the pro US government is absolute and truth means nothing to him.

Here you go James, Little schoolgirls in Ukrainian flags making petrol bombs. Any questions?

http://pando.com/2014/05/03/former-usaid-advisor-very-proud-watching-carnage-in-odessa/

Plus just one thing. That video is highly edited. Does not run start to finish.

Yes one question. Can you not read? Please refer to my first post on this thread :)

Joe thanks for the link. Really shows who the murderers were on Feb 20 and who were simply doing their job. I still find it difficult to believe how Western Europe can be supporting the current authorities in Ukraine who don’t have power legitimately. And my heart goes out to those innocent protestors who were burned alive yesterday.

)

Pat – tell me what you see from 2.00 in your video. At least one fire was started INSIDE the building. Before you or anyone else jump down my throat I’m not denying that petrol bombs were thrown from outside the building or trying to justify that in any way. Just pointing out the facts.

Also, I haven’t seen any ‘western media propaganda’ outlets trying to either justify or deny what happened. Even Kiev said the fire was started criminally and have vowed to track down those involved (starting with yesterday’s arrest of 130 people). What outlets are you referring to?

Re. your link Joe, if those shots were being fire at unarmed people trying to escape the fire then that is truly reprehensible. The individual involved is easily identifiable and should be prosecuted accordingly.

We know from eyewitness reports that shots were also being fired FROM the building though – how do you know that he wasn’t just trading shots with those firing at the people below?

Your justifying it Avima is the problem. If it were the other way around you would be calling for Russia to be invaded by NATO. Pure shite from the king of spin

Well judging by the fact he is just standing there firing off shots and not bothering to get cover I’d say he doesn’t see himself in any immediate danger, no point in making presumptions, it is what it is, a man firing a gun at a burning building that people are trying to escape from.
I watched reports from several channels and none of them claimed the trapped people had firearms.

Nicole – I’m not justifying it in any way. I was at pains to point that out in my comments if you read them properly. And neither would I call for NATO to invade Russia, but don’t let that get in the way of your nonsense.

Perhaps you’ve been watching the wrong channels Joe:

“Medics at the scene said the pro-Russia fighters were also shooting from the roof. At least five bodies with bullet wounds lay on the ground covered by Ukraine flags as fire engines and ambulances arrived at the scene.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire

“No point in making presumptions”

Totally agree Joe, but that’s exactly what you’ve done!

Getting a little pedantic but where did I make a presumption?

He’s clearly not in an exchange of gunfire, he would be seeking cover if he was and he’s not firing at the roof where the alleged gunman were, from the angle he’s aiming at 1st or 2nd floor,

Nicole, you are exaggerating! There is no support from people on here in support of such violence. This is about mob mentality on the streets of Ukraine between 2 opposing mobs.
You need to blame those individuals and groups who engage in this violence and stop blaming people who are thousands of miles away.
I’m sitting on my couch reading about all this and because I live in the US you want to blame me or say I support one side over another because of the country I happen to live in?!
You are a seriously deluded individual.
Get real!

Joe you made the presumption in jumping to the conclusion that he was firing at unarmed people trying to escape the building.

You have also made the presumption that because shots were reported to have been fired from the roof of the building that they weren’t being fired from anywhere else.

Lets face it neither of us know exactly who he was firing at and why, so probably best keep an open mind until more evidence emerges.

It seems pretty clear to me people have been duped by corporate media into believing it was a brutal crackdown on unarmed protestors, I wonder will certain people have honesty to admit this now, the 2nd part will certainly uncover more media lies. From the day they showed it I was sceptical myself, the editing was so blatant I can’t understand how people fell for it so easily, suited some with their preconceived notions I guess.

Indeed Joe. I can’t really understand it. Maybe 70 of the demonisation of Russia has blinded people to facts. That and the fact that our country is not ours anymore but ruled by European banks. “He who pays the piper calls the tune”.Only explanations I can think of.

If the Kiev govt is fascist then why did they appoint a Jew (Igor Kolmoisky) as governor of Dnepropetrovsk? A bank he owns was burned down by separatists last night in the Donetsk region.

No they were separatists.

If it looks like a fruitbat, then it probably is a fruitbat.

There are definetly antisemitic elements to the Kiev government but they’re an extremely broad group. Most Ukrainian Jews support the interim adminstration and their Vaad condemned Putin for using them as a justification in intervening, citing antisemitism in Russia.

‘A bank he owns was burned down by separatists ‘ Did they cook anybody alive when they burnt it down?Anyway Nuland’s man Yats has no democratic mandate to be appointing his banker and oligarch buddies to governorships.

May be that is who to blame ?!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/cia-fbi-agents-advising-ukraine-government-report-101508429.html

May be this is who to blame

http://news.yahoo.com/cia-fbi-agents-advising-ukraine-government-report-101508429.html

May be this is who to blame ?!!
http://news.yahoo.com/cia-fbi-agents-advising-ukraine-government-report-101508429.html

Why would they be to blame?

Eamonn you are deluded. Peaceful left wing and TU protesters were attacked by ultra right thugs. Murdered in a trade union building. It’s when you write that trash that it’s clear your brainwashed or you support the fascists. Which is it EAMONN?

They were not peaceful they included a lot of Putin thugs and militants. This petrol bomb factory has been found in the basement.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmyJWggIUAAQWet.jpg:large

Wtf am I looking at here?

Good man Eamonn. A picture of a bin. It’s all settled now :-) lol

That’s hilarious.This Eammonn guy is comedy gold.Lol.I’m literally in stitches laughing at your description of bit a rubbish and what looks like some bricks on a basement floor as a ‘petrol bomb factory’.