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THE DEATH TOLL from landslides and floods in the Philippines rose to 58 today, official tallies showed, as rescuers dug up more bodies with their bare hands in villages crushed by rain-induced avalanches.
Most of the deaths from tropical storm Megi – the strongest to hit the disaster-prone archipelago this year – were in the central province of Leyte, where a series of landslides devastated communities.
At least 47 people died and 27 were missing after waves of sodden soil smashed into farming settlements around Baybay City over the weekend, local authorities said. More than 100 people were injured, they added.
Aerial photos showed a wide stretch of mud that had swept down a hill of coconut trees and engulfed Bunga village, where only a few rooftops poked through the now-transformed landscape.
Three people were also killed in the central province of Negros Oriental and three on the main southern island of Mindanao, according to the national disaster agency.
Search operations for survivors in Pilar village – part of Abuyog municipality in Leyte – resumed at first light on Wednesday, with boats carrying rescuers to the coastal community of around 400 people.
The operation came a day after a landslide pushed many houses in the village into the sea.
“We have five casualties, one unidentified,” Captain James Mark Ruiz of Abuyog police told AFP.
Ruiz said more boats were needed to rescue victims and retrieve bodies in the ongoing search after landslides cut off road access to the community.
Around 50 survivors have been ferried from the village, the Bureau of Fire Protection said on Facebook yesterday.
Photos posted by the agency showed buildings crushed or turned over by the force of the landslide and debris in the water.
Medical workers rushed to treat victims as they were brought to shore, applying bandages to cuts and providing emergency blankets. One woman had her right arm in a splint.
Raymark Lasco, a radio operator at the Abuyog disaster agency, told AFP that “many people” had died and that rescue operations were ongoing.
Port operations suspended
Search operations also resumed around Baybay City after the rain stopped, enabling emergency personnel to access hard-hit areas, Mayor Jose Carlos Cari told CNN Philippines.
“In some barangays [villages], we’re just doing retrieval,” Cari said.
Rescuers have been using their bare hands and shovels to reach victims buried by the landslides.
A Philippine Coast Guard video shared on Facebook yesterday showed rescuers carrying a mud-caked woman on a stretcher from one of the devastated villages, while other victims were piggybacked to safety.
The military has joined coast guard, police and fire protection personnel in the search and rescue efforts, which have been hampered by bad weather.
Whipping up seas, Megi forced dozens of ports to suspend operations and stranded thousands of people at the start of Holy Week, one of the busiest travel periods of the year in the Philippines.
Megi came four months after super typhoon Rai devastated swathes of the country, killing more than 400 and leaving hundreds of thousands homeless.
Scientists have long warned that typhoons are strengthening more rapidly as the planet becomes warmer due to climate change.
The Philippines – ranked among the most vulnerable nations to the impacts of the climate crisis – is hit by an average of 20 storms every year.
Interesting. I thought ezra nawi might be hanging his head in shame and guilt, knowing his having sex with an underage boy cost his friend and lover the presidency of Ireland. Guess I was wrong.
That man has no shame.
Correct Susan, Karl & Frank. He has no shame & blame everyone else except themselves. They brought this on themsleves by your man’s shameful behaviour & don’t try to deflect attention away to someone else.
“That man” paid the price demanded of the state in which he committed the crime.
That man has never hidden his agenda behind the actions of hypocrites.
Do you see the people who hounded Norris hounding Mitchell.
Not those homophobes, hypocrites and shills – you wont!
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Write ‘David Norris’ on the Ballot Paper.
Mark an ‘X’ beside it
Send a message
Its incredible how the Independent can report this and still skews the story by leaving out details. They report that Nawi ‘assaulted’ Israeli police – he didn’t, the incident was filmed, they assaulted him.
And as for those people commenting here who persist with their faux, populist and (deliberately) ignorant moral outrage…
Norris himself admitted that, looking back, what he did was wrong. Are you accusing him of ignorant moral outrage too?
It’s better than "religious nazi president of Ireland Dana". Or double standards Mitchell!!
What I meant to say by the above is it doesn’t matter what the papers say about Nawi,
Norris’ has already suffered. Its too late for him even if the press said Nawi was due for canonisation for saving millions in Africa and India. The damage is done.
@David – Well that’s what the people get to vote on in October. Personally, as I’ve said elsewhere, none of them seem to be worth the effort, Norris included.
@Oisin
I’m talking about those people who are swooning while crying out ‘won’t someone think of the children’.
You make some good points but I don’t necessarily agree that Norris couldn’t have recovered from this.
@oisin my anger is the fact that the people should decide who is their president and that includes Norris on the ballot paper. It should be up to us who we want
@cybernoelie – Ooohhh, sorry, yup, misunderstood your reference.
In fairness to Norris, that whole “think of the children” reason people put forward was stupidity of the highest magnitude.
@David – But I could use the exact opposite argument based on the same reasoning. What about the people who don’t want Norris on the ballot? Should their viewpoints be discounted because they don’t mesh with yours.
I agree that people should be allowed choose their candidates. This whole 4 councils or 20 TDs rule is elitist in modern society (although it did make sense back in the 30s when telephones were cutting edge technology in Ireland) and should be done away with.
But there still needs ot be a pragmatic vetting of candidates to prevent ballots with thousands of candidates in that case. Especially if those candidates have surnames like Cowen or Healy-Rae.
@Oisin the day he withdrew he was still
Favorite in the polls on numerous websites. The only reason people would not want him on the ballot is coz he would still have a good chance at winning. I find this whole process undemocratic. With the combine TD’s of fine Gael and labour with like over 100 they could easily just get his name on the ballot paper and let the people of this country to decide who they want.
@David – In which case why did he step aside?
I mean never mind our personal opinions here, but if Norris thought he could weather the political storm and still win ascend to the Presidency, why quit?
He could have always sought people to replace the campaign staff he lost. If he was as popular as everyone believes, why didn’t people petition their councillors or TDs on his behalf, assuming that’s allowed (it may not be for all I know)?
How many street protests have there been for the “unfair” treatment of Norris, or petitioning him to re-enter the race?
All I’m saying is people may have supported him with their mouths, they didn’t support him with their actions.
We’ve seen the support he garnered in the ecosphere of The Journal, but we shouldn’t confuse that with national support. I think you’ll find the majority of the country are apathetic regarding the Presidential election.
That’s why a such a field of mediocre candidates can stand without fear of ridicule or recrimination – because the country doesn’t care if the lowest common denominator sits in the Áras.
Seriously, there’s always something that’ll come back to bite me in the rear end.
Fine, Abban Dunne has a petition, and it has almost 3000 signatories, but its over. But he’s not planning on doing anything with it, other than hoping Norris will change his mind. (http://jrnl.ie/194304)
I doubt he will however, as (at least when I checked) http://www.norrisforpresident.ie is gone. It is no more, extant. Seems Senator Norris is committed to staying out of the race.
@ Oisín
“why didn’t people petition their councillors or TDs on his behalf”
I did. I used http://www.contact.ie
I’ve had a few positive responses and a couple of negative responses and lots of…no responses.
@cybernoelie – Can I get you ketchup, or would you like salt & vinegar with that piece of my rear end?
Stop flirting with me Oisín ;-)
I just received this email:
“Dear Friends,
I received dozens of letters over thepast week relating to the Presidential election and the candidacy of David Norris.
Please excuse me for not being able torespond to each individually but my Column in today’s Daily Mail clearly lays out my views on what happened.
Sincerely yours,
Joe Higgins
Voters should have decided Norris’sfate
‘Faulty judgement and anti Israeli bias leave Norris unfit for Aras run,’ was the bald headline over an article by columnist Bruce Arnold in Monday’s Irish Independent. It began, ‘David Norris is not a suitable person to stand for election to the office of President of this country.’
Fergus Finlay, also a prominent columnist,was equally trenchant in demanding that Senator Norris should ‘get out of this race.’ And of course much of the media slant on the controversies surrounding the Norris bid amounted to a similar edict.
This growing crescendo of pressure to force David Norris out of the election for President amounted to a blatant subversion of the democratic rights of the Irish people to freely choose whom they wish in any election. In wanting Norris not to be on the ballot paper, there is an implied slur on the electorate that they could not be trusted to elect the ‘right’ person.
A letter writer in Wednesday’s Irish Times, Margaret O Keefe, summed it up very succinctly. ‘The Irish electorate,and not political elites or gatekeepers, should have decided Senator Norris’s electoral fate at the ballot box. He should have been facilitated by the Oireachtas to remain in the race, enabling the electorate to adjudicate on his deficits alongside his outstanding human rights record.’
This is why the Socialist Party told Senator Norris on Monday that in the almost certain situation that it would not be possible to have a serious candidate advocating a principled and comprehensive Left policy and programme being able to contest the presidency,the two Oireachtas signatures we commanded would facilitate his nomination.I believe that the same would have been the case with two People BeforeProfit deputies.
That would have been insufficient, however,when a number of deputies who had pledged their signatures withdrew later on Monday. Principal among these was Dublin North Central deputy, Finian McGrath, who had enthusiastically appointed himself a ‘kingmaker’ for Norris’s bid. There can’t be too many would be kingmakers in history who so dramatically subverted their cherished role by assassinating their prince before he was even close to the throne!
I do not agree with the demand in some media that public representatives or others should never make representations after somebody has been convicted of a crime. Provided that they are respectful of victims, done publicly in open court and from a genuine knowledge of the character of the subject of the representation. In this regard Senator Norris was rightly critical of himself for not showing ‘compassion to the victim of Ezra’s disgraceful crime.’ It would be as unjust,however, to infer that the Senator was condoning child abuse as to say somebody pleading for clemency for a death row inmate was in favour of murder.
David Norris would have taken positions on some economic and political issues that socialists would strongly disagree with. But he was a courageous advocate for human rights, rights of gay people and opposed to the murderous wars inflicted on the people of the Middle East by western powers. His election would have severely discomfited the political establishment.
The 1937 Constitution, despite proclaiming that ‘The President shall be elected by direct vote of the people’, virtually ensures that the establishment is not so discomfited. In fact it provides for the rigging of the Presidential nomination process to keep it within the control of the political establishment by requiring twenty signatures from Dail deputies and Senators or a majority of four local authorities to get on the ballot paper.
This amounts to the Irish people not having a free choice because they are presented only with candidates who are acceptable to the establishment political parties whether in government or in the parliamentary opposition.
The Constitution makes the President a virtual prisoner of the government of the day, making ceremonial State visits and rubberstamping legislation. In current circumstances this means being obliged to sign laws providing for the savage austerity arising from the immoral and unjust EU/IMF programme forcing the Irish people to salvage the financial gamblers of Europe.
In the very hypothetical situation that a principled Left activist achieved a nomination for the Presidential election, she or he could not simply join the ludicrous personality contest that most media will now inflict on the Irish people for the next three months pretending that it is a serious election campaign. While bringing the critical economic and social issues affecting ordinary people to the fore, and campaigning for a socialist alternative, the Left would raise the abolition of the Presidency itself as an unnecessary establishment institution.
However, in the likely scenario that Presidential elections will be with us for some time, it should be insisted on that any citizen has a right to stand without being filtered through the political establishment.”
And an email reply from Dessie Ellis just before that basically agrees with Joe’s view on electing a president.
Ummmm… okay? :)
The only thing I got out of that article is half-hearted support Norris, a snipe at Gay Mitchell and Michael D. Higgins and that the Office of President and the associated electoral process is a waste of time, with the latter being elitist, and should be abolished, pretty much most of which I agree with.
Also I’d never say anything bad about Dessie Ellis (I value my life too much). Now there’s a man who should run for President, the press would never find his skeletons, literal or figurative. ;)
LOL (and looking over my shoulder)
Clare Daly and Richard Boyd Barrett have also replied, very positively.
@ Oisin,
I’m not surprised you took so little out of the argument.
You seem to be a very polished shill or public-relations -trained spinner and waffler.
Here is what you should have taken out of the article
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“David Norris would have taken positions on some economic and political issues that socialists would strongly disagree with. But he was a courageous advocate for human rights, rights of gay people and opposed to the murderous wars inflicted on the people of the Middle East by western powers. His election would have severely discomfited the political establishment.”
“The 1937 Constitution, despite proclaiming that ‘The President shall be elected by direct vote of the people’, virtually ensures that the establishment is not so discomfited. In fact it provides for the rigging of the Presidential nomination process to keep it within the control of the political establishment by requiring twenty signatures from Dail deputies and Senators or a majority of four local authorities to get on the ballot paper.”
“This amounts to the Irish people not having a free choice because they are presented only with candidates who are acceptable to the establishment political parties whether in government or in the parliamentary opposition.”
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The undermining of democracy in the manner prescribed by the mainstream parties denied the electorate the right to vote for the candidate of their choice.
The fig leaf of democracy seems to be all that stands between us and barbarity and yet these clowns have stripped it away.
They have sown the wind and shall reap the whirlwind.
—————————————————–
Write ‘David Norris’ on the Ballot Paper.
Mark an ‘X’ beside it
Send a message
@Michael – “They have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind”
To my knowledge this is the first time any paper has claimed that there was outside state involvement. Still would rather know this news before rather than after the election.
Norris should get back in the race!!!
Totally agree, but this time he should get people with balls and brass necks who can give better than they can get. I hated his team from the start, they came across to me as juvenile, inexperienced and incompetent from the start.
If you’re up for it cybernoelie, then I am.
But if I get involved its going to get VERY dirty.
The only way to destabilize the main parties enough to get Norris in is to do them serious damage.
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We’ll have to be looking at mainstream party members and what they knew and when about a whole range of subjects.
Broadcasting licenses
Quarryvale bribery
Garda cover-ups
Local scandals involving their members
Right wing associations and affiliations
… oh, the list would be endless and because we would have good sources and not be looking for favours in lieu there is no telling WHAT might come out in the mix.
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As for the candidates
Gay Mitchel’s Klu Klux Klan type people he’s pleaded for might have a few real pedophiles among them.
Sean Gallaghers links to Fianna Fáil might have to be forcefully blasted to the ether.
Then you’ll be looking for achievements and affiliations of the remaining candidates and mainstream and comparing them rather unfavourably to Norris “What have they EVER done?”
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And of course you’ll need a legal team on standby ready to sue main party shills and Meeja organs at the drop of a hat should anyone utter something that even has a sniff of defamation about it.
Which could probably put the Journal offline for a while.
Could be very interesting.
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But as I noted before, I’d have none of this hand-wringing “admitting I did wrong” nonsense from Norris.
He’d have to stiffen his backbone and run to a prepared script and get everyone who is affiliated to him to have agreed responses at the drop of a hat on any subject so his position can clearly be known in advance
———————————–
Things like –
Nawi
Under Age Sex
The documentary about the poet in Nepal
Current practices in the Gay Community, etc.
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And I’d also want a list of his representations and achievements
Human rights
East Timor and Suharto Regime
Israel
Russian Jews
Senate attendances
Senate Motions and Votes
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You cannot go into this unprepared and the most unprepared person appears to be Norris.
And he’d better learn to follow advice the advice of his handlers not just listen to it.
Both now and when he’s president he would need to get focussed on what his presidency should be about, not just follow the ends of old strategies.
I wonder would Norris be up for that?
Because I might know at least one or two other persons who could help him run a credible come-back campaign.
—————————————————–
Write ‘David Norris’ on the Ballot Paper.
Mark an ‘X’ beside it
Send a message
Michael, you wonder would Norris be up for your approach? After reading that post about himself, I’d doubt it very much!
Why is the Daily Star stating the obvious?
Hi Brian, What’s"obvious"?
Hi Mark. What I mean by obvious is that there was a concerted campaign by parties with there own agenda to take down Norris one way or the other. I’m not singling out any one particular group as Norris was a thorn in the side of a lot of groups. The media however had it’s role to play in some very hysterical and inaccurate reporting. The Examiner newspaper described John Connelly as a journalist as opposed to being a blogger thereby giving him an elevated air of authority. This made him seem to be a reporter for a media outlet as opposed to someone expressing a personal opinion.
They also reported that the letters to the Israeli court were on headed paper which they weren’t, didn’t fully investigate the circumstances of the case involving Nawi and seemed to have done very little research of their own, just rehashed what the other guy said. Look there is no point in going over old ground as that has been covered ad nauseum and what’s dine is done. I just believe that with time it will emerge that the motives of the people behind this whole thing will come to light and will show that they were less interested in the welfare of the youth involved and more interested in their own agenda.
Remember all the hassle with Adi Roche in the past? This isn’t the first election to be hit by dirty tricks and it won’t be the last.
Brian,Have you read the famous letter?I thought it was toe-curling.As for bloggers versus mainstream media,I’m not convinced the latter are more reliable.Remember Dan Rather of CBS being trumped by bloggers on fake documents about Bush?
Oh I read the letter all right Mark and I agree with you. It was pretty hard going at times and the references to Irish law would have made me throw it in the bin if I was an Israeli judge. I have already made the point that the mainstream media have let us down badly. While blogger’s can serve a purpose in bringing to light information, that information and the context and background that it is written in has to be investigated fully before splashing it all over the front page. This case aside just look at the “lesbian blog from Syria” scandal that showed that the blog was written by a male in Scotland. Good investigative journalists are few and far between I’m afraid. It deems to be a case of write first, research later I’m afraid.
Brian, It’s not just investigative reporters we need. Consumers of most Irish media receive an unhealthy diet of biased "reporting" from journalists who routinely allow their opinions to influence the content of their reportage. This is less of a problem with Irish news where the consumer has some knowledge of the issues and can see the bias for what it is, but foreign reporting in Ireland, not least by our most "prestigious" organs is a disgrace.
Nothing worse than seeing a shill trying to be engaging after the fact.
“Let’s forget about the fact that the mainstream parties have disenfranchised the electorate and talk waffle about De Meeja”.
It wasn’t De Meeja that sent out the word to all the local Labour and Fine Gael controlled Councils to “Block Norris”.
It was the mainstream parties.
——————————————–
Write ‘David Norris’ on the Ballot Paper.
Mark an ‘X’ beside it
Send a message
Instead of guilt he has used the publicity to further his own interests in Israel. Clear that had the roles been reversed he would not return any favours to Norris, a muppet of the highest order.
Norris & Nawi have no1 to blame but themselves. Never loose sight of that fact that a then 40+ adult male had unlawful carnal knowledge of a 15 yr old boy. That is wrong. The fact was discovered & the media did their job in reporting it. There was no witch hunt, no1 out to “get” Norris. They brought all this on themselves. Whatever one may think, you can’t have someone associated with the likes of that be a head of State. Gay M needs further examination, too. This news belongs to yesterday. Leave it there & move on.
I agree with you on the point that Nawi had unlawful carnal knowledge Declan and this is perhaps one of the few times when someone has accurately stated the offence that Nawi committed. I don’t agree that the media did their job as they continuously referred to the offence as “rape” which it was not. The offence is commonly referred to as “statuary rape” which in this case is misleading as it implies that Nawi forced himself on the youth. While I am not condoning Nawi’s actions I would have preferred a more objective and less hysterical reporting by the media. There has been a failure by the political system in the selection process but there has also been a failure by the media in informing the general public.
How are people supposed to make informed decisions if the only information that they get is from a few lazy individuals who can’t be bothered researching a story properly and just write the first rabble rousing piece that comes into their head? Too often we are subjected to “opinion” pieces dressed up as reporting the facts which Joe public takes as Gospel. It is ironic that in a time when we have more information to hand than at any other time in history we seem to be getting dumber and dumber.
Totally agree Brian.
I’m starting to form an opinion that journalists should be held personally liable for misleading, factually incorrect and badly researched reporting.
Nawi’s mum was 14 when she had him…
“The offence is commonly referred to as “statuary rape” [sic]”
That’s probably something to do with the fact that that’s what it’s called.
Well Aidan in Ireland at least , according to the Citizens Information Board and Irish legislation
“The term statutory rape is not used in the legislation but it is the term that is commonly used for unlawful sexual contact with a person aged under 17 years.”
AFIAK this is the same Israeli law as well. There is a big difference between the act of rape and unlawful sexual contact. Both are against the law and should be punished and both can have a very traumatic affect on the victims. In this case the youth involved entered into the relationship willingly, with out coercion and with consent to the act and was in “regular friendly relations” with Nawi. What Nawi was prosecuted for was for being more than 3 years older than the youth. At no stage was it suggested that Nawi actually forcibly committed any act of a sexual nature on the youth. This is about age difference and not the commission of a violent sexual act. If Nawi was 18 at the time this wouldn’t even have raised an eyebrow.
I understand the distinction, but the term ‘statutory rape’ has long been used for this purpose. I don’t think anyone is under the impression that it means he forced himself on to the child; the term is no more loaded now than it ever was before.
And yes, if Nawi was 18 at the time then nobody would have batted an eyelid.
But he wasn’t. He was 45.
@ Declan Carroll
No, I won’t leave it there especially because another right wing shill tells me to.
This is going to run and run until this unwarranted abuse of power by the mainstream parties is fully exposed and brings down this government.
They were elected on an anti-corruption ticket – which I supported – and the first thing they do is undermine democracy in this manner.
Not good enough, not by a long shot!
—————————————————–
Write ‘David Norris’ on the Ballot Paper.
Mark an ‘X’ beside it
Send a message
@ Aidan COughlan,
There were references made during this smear campaign to “child rapist” and “pedophile supporter” by the right wing homophobic shills hunting Norris.
Don’t bother to try and back pedal out if this now bu telling US what we were telling THEM four days ago!
We KNOW what ALL the terms mean and the two men were widely reported in the most defamatory language.
The only surprise to me is that neither Norris nor Nawi has sued anyone yet.
According to Nawi:
Trite sniping disguised as informed comment Oisín?
Have you no shame?
Silly question…
——————————————
The Norris witch hunt had nothing to do with Norris already high standing on a global level.
Mainstream political hacks looking to dig up dirt on Norris found two issues they could spin.
#1. The plea for support for Nawi was the one that brought him down – where Norris and Nawi were both repeatedly defamed.
#2. The back up plan was Norris call for a high-level government review of a documentary about a poet living in Nepal where again the ramping up defamed him suggesting he tried to block the screening per se.
Considering Norris is gay and no spring chicken you’d expect that if there were any REAL skeletons they’d have found them.
But they didn’t.
Instead they’ve found this stuff that needs spinning to death by homophobic mainstream gombeen men party shills and their religious fundie cheerleaders to gain traction.
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Then there is your witty snip at Nawi.
If any of the shills who hunted Norris could even hold a candle to Nawi’s achievements they might have some credibility.
What do they risk, sniping at people who have been beaten by state police and smeared by fools like them, when they’re sitting there at their keyboards?
Nothing.
Comfortable, smug, right-wing, crony capitalists.
Learn a little about the man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Nawi
———————————————————–
Write ‘David Norris’ on your ballot
Mark an ‘X’ beside his name.
Send a message
Now let’s see the Wiki page on Oisín Daly and see what it says.
Oh, there isn’t one – quel surprise!
Why on earth do you think there’d be a Wiki page on me? Is there one on you? Good grief man.
Hope the media doesn’t stop asking about the other canditates and their past.
Seconded.
——————————————————————–
Write ‘David Norris’ on the Ballot Paper
Mark an ‘X’ beside it.
Send a message
It’s a step backwards for victims of child abuse if it’s accepted that a 15 year old can give proper consent to a much older, more mature adult. Child grooming involves befriending and making a connection with a child, breaking down barriers and inhibitions in order to eventually gain the child’s compliance or “consent.” I thought Ezra Nawi played down the fact that the child in this case was underage and made the meek excuse that he asked the boy if he wanted to delay, but the boy said no. I wonder would any other sexual abuser get this sort of air time and be treated in the same mild manner by the interviewer?
According to the Independent http://tiny.cc/liqt6 Nawi says that they boy claimed to be 16. He should have checked of course if there was any doubt in his mind as it can be quite hard to judge age’s these days for both males and females. Israeli law allows 14 year olds of both sex’s to have sex but only if the partner is within 3 years of the youngest person involved. Personally I think that this is too young myself and Japan (13) and Mexico (12) take the biscuit.
@ Maria Conroy Byrne
Sad to see you’ve missed the last few years
Let me bring you up to speed.
Ezra Nawi was convicted by a court in Israel in 1997 of statutory rape and sentenced to three months in prison, which he served.
David Norris has recently resigned from the Presidential campaign on 2nd August 2011.
(note the difference between the dates)
The mainstream political parties who conspired to block Norris from getting on the Ballot have been exposed by their actions as being the undemocratic, conservative, right wing, homophobic, gombeen men that they are.
Their political shills who conducted a witch hunt of Norris through De Meeja have been exposed as hypocrites for not similarly hunting down Gay Mitchell for the same “offence” of using headed notepaper to plead for clemency for a convicted criminal.
Somewhere along the way people who think that a fifteen year old is a child have had it pointed out that a child is someone between the ages of birth and puberty.
The more persistent have had it pointed out that Israeli law specifically allows for young people from 14-16 to give consent to engage in sex subject to three conditions although that did not facilitate Nawis actions because he was 45 at the time. In his defence Nawi stated that the boy had misrepresented his age and no-one has refuted his claim.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia#Israel
Israel
According to the Israeli Penal Code of 1977 the age of consent in Israel is 16 for any form of sexual relations. A special case arises when a person between ages 14–16 had sexual relations with an older partner; in this case the older partner would be exempt of criminal liability if three conditions are met: The age difference between the partners was less than three years, the younger partner gave consent and the act was done out of “regular friendly relations” and without the abuse of power.[27]
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Admittedly some of the people who have had these things explained to them have shown a flat learning curve and few signs of intelligent life and keep repeating their mantras.
——————————————————————–
Write ‘David Norris’ on the Ballot Paper
Mark an ‘X’ beside it.
Send a message
@julie
you know where the airport is?
@Michael O’ Neill
The key part of your post refers to Israeli law on consent, but you acknowledge ” that did not facilitate Nawi’s actions because he was 45 at the time.” None of your points excuse Nawi’s abuse of power. Whether you believe a 15 yr old is a child or not, the fact is that few countries judge the age of consent based on the onset of puberty. Yemen and Bolivia are countries where this approach is adopted.
The age of consent is a legal barrier to the minor ability to consent and therefore obtaining consent is not in general a defence to having sexual relations with a person under the prescribed age. Common examples:
Reasonably believing that the victim is over the age of consent—in some jurisdictions, (such as England and Wales[8]), it is a defence if the accused can show that he or she reasonably believed the victim was over the age of consent. However, where such a defence is provided, it normally applies only when the victim is close to the age of consent or the accused can show due diligence in determining the age of the victim (e.g., a 15-year-old who used a fake identification document to enter a bar for persons 18 and older) – Wikipedia.
As regards your constant pointing the finger at the gombeen men and so called homophobics and your accusations of hypocrisy- many of Norris’ own team pulled the plug and, I doubt his original supporters are homophobic or they wouldn’t have supported him in the first place. They pulled the plug based on information which Norris failed to reveal.
As for Gay Mitchell- many differ in their views and don’t see any relation between the two situations. These people don’t strike me as right wing or conservative. They’re entitled to their views and have backed them up with reasonable arguments. Nothing Hypocritical about that!
Conspiracy theory or not, Senator Norris either wrote the letter or he didn’t!
Nicola of course he wrote it, no-one denies that, he even sent a copy of the letter to the Sunday Independent himself so I don’t see your point.
According to David Quinn speaking on the reports carried in the the Sunday Times and the Mail on Sunday 07/08/11
“The Mail on Sunday has uncovered in the National Library minutes of the first meeting of the Union for Sexual Freedom in Ireland held on May 10, 1975. Norris addressed the meeting and according to the minutes, “David said as a child it had been his greatest desire to be molested so he, more than most people, knows the rarity of the homosexual child molester.”
More damningly, it catalogues the support given to a pro-paedophile organisation in the 1980s called the Paedophile Information Exchance (which at the time was a member of Britain’s National Council for Civil Liberties). The Mail reports that Norris was a founding member of the International Gay Association and in the 1980s the association passed two motions.
“One called for the abolition of the age of consent, whilst the second called for an international solidarity campaign on behalf of the Paedophile Information Exchange.
“At the time of the letter, members of exchange were being prosecuted for ‘conspiracy to corrupt public morals’ over ads that appeared in a magazine that were alleged to have promoted indecent acts between adults and children.”
The Mail article draws on records from the Irish Queer Archive.
It continues: “One letter [from the International Gay Association] seeking support for the exchange, dated May 13, 1981, said: ‘PIE is an organisation set up in the ‘70s with two aims: to provide a counselling and support service for isolated paedophiles, and to campaign against the legal and social oppression of paedophilia”.
The National Gay Federation, to which David Norris belonged, was a member of the International Gay Association.”
You are some shower if you think that this man has any credibility left. It is high time a petition was started to remove him from office.
With this new information, David Norris’ position in the Senate is not tenable.
sure if enda kenny wrote a letter saying his local parish priest should be taken easy on, there would be outrage, so whats different norris ex is a child abuser and norris should not be gettin involved in foreign cases
The young man was fifteen.
Were you still a child at fifteen?
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It is not uncommon for the opposition to dig the dirt, but if it is true that Mr Norris wrote that letter, which is likely the case, then you can’t really talk about ‘dirty tricks’. That letter has proved he is unfit to hold political office.
Nice bland comment but no substance to it.
Care to elaborate?
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@ Brian, Ana has explained it nicely!
Ana explained nothing.
She made a waffly statement.
Read the documents and form your own opinion.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf
As for her substantive comment.
There is no law against a member of the Oireachtas seeking clemency for convicted criminals on headed paper.
Why should there be?
Being merciful is seen as a Good Thing by most non fundamentalists.
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0805/1224301874341.html?via=mr
I am in no way a fan of this particuliar Journalist but this does raise interesting questions.
If Mr Norris had wrote to the Isreal as a private individual – I would think “perhaps not the best thing to do – but perhaps he was a man blinded by love and perhaps he did choose to believe his friend/lover”
But Mr Norris didnt – he used Government headed paper and like it or not that dragged all of us in to this.
All ministers etc should remember they are the voice of the People and be it helping your friend get a good land deal or putting in a good word so that your friend gets out of Jail – it is an abuse of power.
We need to hold ALL elected officals to a higher standard and stop turning a blind eye or just accepting abuse of power as a given.
Veronica, can you show me where on the letter to the Judges of the Hugh Court in Jerusalem you see ANY Government heading http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf anywhere at all. Perhaps I need to go to Specsavers and get a new prescription because I can’t see it.
My understanding from the media reports was that he wrote on headed paper. If he did not and further if he did not allude to his position in the Government of Ireland then this is a different Matter.
Well it’s a bit late now to realise that the media reported wrong. Stable door, horse bolting and all that.
@Brian – I think the fact he wrote a personal character reference for a man convicted of “statutory rape” on government headed paper and signed it using his official title as a member of a government foreign affairs committee is dubious enough.
Oisin I fully accept that what he did was wrong, my point is that there has been some woefully inaccurate reporting on this matter that has lead people to form opinions based on poorly researched material. The media reported that he sent a letter to the Israeli courts on headed paper which is complete lies. Yes he wrote a personal reference on headed paper “to whom it may concern” much the same as Kathleen Lynch in her day http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0420/caseyt.html and I very much doubt if he was the first to do so. I would like to see Gay Mitchells’s letter in the spirit of transparency to see if he also used headed paper and title.
What I would like most of all is to get honest, open and well researched journalism that is objective and non partisan in it;s output. That remind’s me, I must do my Euro-millions lotto, I’ve a better chance of getting that any-time soon! :-)
So if I get what your saying, you agree he’s wrong, you just want to make sure the right reason gets reported for why he’s wrong, as opposed to the inaccurate ones they’ve reported so far?
As for Gay Mitchell, I agree. If it was a personal petition, I have no problems with it. But, like Norris, if he used any form of official documentation or representation in making his petition, there had better be a justifiable reason why he did so, or, again like Norris, he should step down from his candidacy for the Presidency. Same rule for all candidates.
Likewise, I would expect the press to dig as deep into the other as they did with Norris. Norris made it easy for them to target him by being a media whore, and I’m sure the others were happy to let him do so as long as they could hide their misdeeds in his shadow. Now its time their blemishes are brought to light also.
Exactly.
@ Veronica Curry
I am tired of people repeating lies and disinformation because they cannot google the relevant information.
No more excuses.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf
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WEll Michael perhaps the truth is a little hard to swallow but take your own advice and read the truth here: http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/more-revelations-about-david-norris-paedophilia-and-age-consent
Ya a 40 year old man and a 15 year old boy is wrong but the 40 year old man wasn’t Norris.he merely expressed his democratic right to freedom of speech but he experienced the witch hunt.
Double murder is wrong but where is the witch hunt for gay michel?same situation as Norris regarding freedom of speech.
Im fucking sick of the narrow minded idiots in this country.
Simply put and straight to the point
I like your post Julie Swayne.
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i’m sure the last thing the Israelis care about is who becomes president of Ireland
The Israelis are a client state of the Americans, whose president at this moment is waging a war against civilians in Pakistan, where 90% of the deaths due to Drone attacks were not terrorists.
America would find a meeting with David Norris as Irish President very embarrassing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan
Never assume that Inda (I’ll steal anyone’s speech for my own) Kinny has ever had an original thought in his head.
This isn’t about Israel, its about Inda Kinny not being embarrassed by something David Norris might say to Obama about -
- murdering innocents in the Middle East
- sponsoring dictatorships around the world and
- the whole concept of Odious Debt in the developing world
Israel’s leaking of a letter would only be one thread in the tangled intelligence web that has recently affected the outcome of the Irish Presidential election 2011.
Great to see our present Taoiseach and Tainaiste are as supine as the last two were when it comes to exposing American corporate/military/intelligence wronging and war crimes.
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@Michael
Michael, ever thought of writing thrillers? It’s better than Robert Ludlum reading your postings.
Or maybe you’re a little paranoid and grandiose about Ireland’s role in the world?
I have a quote for you. Sleep tight.
“Word came to me from the Lord: And now, son of man, do not confront Jerusalem with the record of her misdoings.”
Ezechiel 16:1
Good one, Maurice!
Norris sh
Sorry stupid iPhone
@David – A bad workman always blames his t
Sorry stupid Mac
;)
Well Nicola, Ana seems to be confused as to whether Norris wrote the letter or not (which he did) so I think I’ll reserve judgement on her opinion for the moment.
The article was written by David Quinn
David Quinn (Irish journalist) – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
David Quinn founded teh Iona Institute which went public in 2007
Iona Institute – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“In March 2007, Labour Party spokesperson on Finance, Joan Burton TD,[13] launched The Iona Institute’s first policy document, Tax Individualisation: Time for a Critical Rethink.”
“In September 2007, Gay Mitchell MEP hosted an conference named The Fragmenting Family on behalf of the Iona Institute.”
“The following November, the Institute released a document entitled ‘Domestic Partnerships: A response to recent proposals on civil unions’, the foreword to which was written by Martin Mansergh TD.[12]”
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Let’s answer these comments, brought by a right wing Catholic newspaper, and let’s do so by putting them in context.
Firstly there is a minute, apparently a paraphrase of Norris comments at a meeting -
“… The Mail on Sunday has uncovered in the National Library minutes of the first meeting of the Union for Sexual Freedom in Ireland held on May 10, 1975.”
“Norris addressed the meeting and according to the minutes, “David said as a child it had been his greatest desire to be molested so he, more than most people, knows the rarity of the homosexual child molester.””
Given the source (a catholic newspaper), and the twisting of reported facts on the Journal.ie last week and as done originally on a pro-Israeli blog in relation to Nawi, I would not accept this description of what Norris said as being verbatim.
Regardless of the detail of the way things may have been said, in relation to the bare facts there is nothing new here.
“Child” here is used in the context of the day, the 1970′s, where the separate identity of “teenager” was still a novelty in the eyes of the older establishment in Britain and Ireland – child in this context could normally have referred to any person under the age of consent, which was then 21, or I understand.
Norris is in record as having wished to be introduced to the gay lifestyle by a mature older male. This life experience is still sought by many adolescent gays, who, raised in and identifying with a heterosexual society, are often troubled dealing with their own self-revulsion and insecurity, afraid to ‘come out’ in case they would lose the respect of their peers and unsure of how to express their sexuality given the lack of societal support, even today.
Secondly there are references to an organization of which Norris was allegedly member, the International Gay Association.
Even the Mail doesn’t state that he actually was a member, only that he wrote one of its “founding documents”.
This document is not identified and Norris’ status is not clarified, it is left hanging as an inference.
This is much like President George w. Bushes assertion – without proof then or later – that Saddam Hussein possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Sloppy journalism and innuendo presented as fact, in other words.
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But let’s move on.
Without establishing Norris status, the Mail then lays a series of loosely connected links.
“It [the Mail] also catalogues the support given to a pro-paedophile organisation in the 1980s called the Paedophile Information Exchange (which at the time was a member of Britain’s National Council for Civil Liberties).”
Well if it “catalogued” the support, why didn’t it state WHO gave the support? The inference is that Norris was involved, but nowhere is it stated that this is the case. More waffly “reporting” and innuendo.
The Mail also states
“In the 1980s the International Gay Association passed two motions.”
There is no reporting of actual dates. There is no suggestion Norris was a Member, only an inference.
“One called for the abolition of the age of consent, whilst the second called for an international solidarity campaign on behalf of the Paedophile Information Exchange.”
At no point does it suggest that Norris was involved with this organization.
“At the time of the letter, members of exchange were being prosecuted for ‘conspiracy to corrupt public morals’ over ads that appeared in a magazine that were alleged to have promoted indecent acts between adults and children.”
Its not clear what age the children in the case were. Its probable that they refer to persons under 18, but they could be much younger – the Mail doesn’t make this clear. What also isn’t clear is that Norris is not a member of the Exchange. By this lack of clarity it is possible to infer that he is in fact a Member.
This sort of waffly, inferential linkage to Norris continues until even the Mail decides it should clarify the matter and admits.
“The National Gay Federation, to which David Norris belonged, was a member of the International Gay Association.”
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So now we can see the link between Norris, the National Gay Federation to which Norris “belonged” (whatever that means) and the International Gay Federation. Close reading of the reported Mail article fails to show that there is a direct link between Norris and the International Gay Association.
But let’s look at the more interesting allegations made in the Mail’s piece about the International Gay Association.
“One called for the abolition of the age of consent…”
This seems outrageous today, but what was the context back then? I have to warn you that its a bit of an eye opener.
Age of consent manifestations (UK) – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since the 1970s, a number of demonstrations have taken place in the UK in favour of lowering the age of consent, either on the grounds of claims for children’s rights, gay liberationism or, more recently, “as a means to avoid unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted infections (STI’s) and ‘bad sex’ via education and health promotion”.[1]
Sociologist Matthew Waites, author of The age of Consent – Young People, Sexuality and Citizenship, observed that:
“By the mid-1970s the case for a lower minimum age for all was finding wider support, with questions being posed concerning the merits of lowering the legal age for male/female sexual behaviour – not only within grassroots sexual movements, but also within religious organisations and liberal intellectual circles.[2]
(…)[Contemporarily,] “significant sections of liberal opinion in the political mainstream, including prominent campaigners for children’s interests and sexual health, support at least some selective decriminalisation of sexual activity between young people under 16”.(…) More generally in academic work, particularly in Sociology, writing on sexuality from various perspectives has questioned the extent of prohibitions on sexual activity involving children.[3]
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Nor was this movement unknown to the mainstream religious groups and academics of the day
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Religious groups
In April 1972, a conference of the Quakers religious group in the UK, the Society of Friends Social Responsibility Council, passed a resolution in favour of lowering the age of consent in Britain from 16 to 14.[5][6]
Soon later, in July 1972, Dr. John Robinson, Dean of Trinity College, Cambridge, and chair of the UK’s Sexual Law Reform Society, defended an age of consent of 14 in the Beckley Lecture to the Methodist Conference.[5][7]
Both of them have made the case for equality at 14, thus comprising heterosexual and homosexual relations.
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In the next piece you can see that, far from all the organizations in the Mail article being of one mind there were significant differences, particularly with reference to the National Council for Civil Liberties
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Liberty (The National Council for Civil Liberties)
In March 1976, the UK’s political pressure group Liberty, under their alternate name National Council for Civil Liberties, (NCCL) called for an equal age of consent of 14 in Britain. Its submission to the Criminal Law Revision Committee generated extensive newspaper coverage. Albeit the report recognised the merits for the abolition of the age of consent, it proposed the retention of a prohibition upon sex below the age of 14 “as a compromise with public attitudes”:[8]
“Although it is both logical, and consistent with modern knowledge about child development, to suggest that the age of consent should be abolished, we fear that, given the present state of public attitudes on this topic, it will not be politically possible to abolish the age of consent”.[9]
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While the above quotations from the Wiki article refer to events over a quarter a century ago, more recent research is also relevant here
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Government Youth advisory
In 2000, a committee of 12 teenage girls set up to advise the UK government on youth issues recommended that the age of consent be reduced to twelve. The website from which the group was recruited also conducted a poll of 42,000 girls between 12 and 16 on the age-of-consent. 87% agreed that it should be lowered from 16.[10][11][12]
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To sum up, you have to closely parse any Meeja Organ’s utterances to understand what they are actually saying, as to what they might like you to infer.
When you actually get past the emotive terms like “paedophilia” and “child” you will discover a lot of strange facts about this while area.
For my own part I would find it hard to countenance going further than the Israeli law in relation to the Age of consent.
However my opinion is not the law and the law has some unusual exceptions
Age of consent – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An Excellent Extract from P.ie
Kenneth and Maria let’s start a campaign to get rid of Norris out of public life.We will be known as a nation of pro paedophelias if we do not put a stop to all this Norris nonsense.It could only happen in Ireland.Please do not get rid of this comment.We need a poll on this commentary site re the getting rid of Norris.It is the pedophile connection gets to me not the fact of David Norris ‘s sexual orientation
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