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ONE OF THE top officials in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) faced a barrage of questions regarding the Public Services Card (PSC) at an Oireachtas committee this afternoon.
Tim Duggan, assistant secretary of the department’s Client Identity Services section, was giving evidence before the committee concerning his own department.
This followed a previous appearance made by representatives of Ireland’s data protection professions two weeks ago, in which serious concerns regarding the card were raised.
In his opening submission, Duggan said that much of the negative commentary concerning the PSC has been ‘misleading’ and ‘incorrect’ and repeatedly drew attention to the media reportage that has been directed at the project.
“There has been too much emphasis on the card,” he said. Repeating a mantra he would return to repeatedly during his appearance, Duggan said the card is “about making sure we’re dealing with the right people”.
The whole point is to identify someone, not on the balance of probabilities, but to a substantial level of assurance that they are who they say they are.
All the card is is proof that you’ve been through the SAFE process.
SAFE2, or Standard Authentication Framework Environment, is the government’s own in-house identification standard used to process PSC applications.
Legal basis
Regarding the legal basis for the card and its expansion to services other than its initial welfare remit (the latest of which is its requirement when applying for a driving licence or renewal), something repeatedly called into question, Duggan said the department is “fully satisfied that with these provisions there is a robust legal basis for the approach we have taken to identity verification”.
The legality or otherwise of the PSC project has been one of its most consistent criticisms, grouped with the suggestion that it is an attempt to create a national ID card ‘by stealth’.
Duggan said that his department is “acutely aware of GDPR (the EU’s coming General Data Protection Regulation, which goes live on 25 May)” and has a dedicated team “to ensure compliance” with it.
He did not have to answer any questions regarding the fact that the government’s current Data Protection Bill exempts the state from much of the fines/requirements of GDPR, however.
He said that the idea that the public services data contained on the PSC could end up in the hands of private sector concerns is preposterous. “I’d like to make it really clear that nothing could be further from the truth,” he said.
Duggan also made reference to the Data Protection Commissioner’s (DPC) investigation into the card, which was initiated late last year over concerns regarding the project’s transparency and its compliance or otherwise with the existing data protection legislation.
“The commissioner has now provided a plan to DEASP regarding that audit,” he said.
This is not the first time that the DPC has conducted such an audit. The department looks forward to her preliminary conclusions and looks forward to discussing them with her.
Questions and answers
The various members of the committee were not shy in asking Duggan (who actually appeared with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform’s Barry Lowry, but ended up dominating the session to a large extent) questions about the card, both on foot of the previous committee outing two weeks ago and with regard to media coverage of the data protection issues surrounding it.
Fianna Fáil’s Willie O’Dea wanted to know more about the DPC investigation into the card currently ongoing.
“What exactly is she investigating?” he asked.
If everything is as clear and above board as you say why is that investigation happening?
Sinn Féin’s John Brady said that as far as he is concerned the PSC is an attempt “to introduce a national ID card by stealth” and said he doesn’t believe that the “legal basis is in place”.
He wanted to know how many people have had welfare payments suspended because of a refusal to register for a card, citing the example of a woman in Donegal who had her state pension stopped for 18 months for that reason, and asked how much the card has cost to date.
Brady likewise wanted clarity as to why adopted people, 40% of whom in Ireland don’t realise their own status, are expected to bring an adoption cert with them to a PSC registration appointment, a fact that has been described as “discriminatory”.
Independent Senator Alice Mary Higgins wanted to discuss the fact that the new Data Protection Bill offers “huge exemptions from GDPR to ministers”. “If ministers disregard advice regarding our data infrastructures, well then we have to be very concerned about GDPR,” she said.
We’ve seen mandatory and compulsory, do we need another line now between voluntary and required.
The only non-adversarial statement by a committee member was by Fine Gael’s Joe Carey, TD for Clare, who declared his belief that the PSC “is a good initiative”.
“I have one myself,” he said. “I don’t believe the hysteria that has been going on about this particular issue. Have you received many complaints about them? (the answer to this question would appear to be yes)”
Not related
Regarding the investigation of the Data Protection Commissioner, Duggan noted that the resultant report has been “pushed back”. “The DPC is hoping to conclude the initial phase next month, and the second phase in May or June,” he said, adding that the delay “is due to normal pressure-of-business reasons”.
He clarified that, to date, 3.14 million PSCs have been issued to 2.65 million people (the disparity being attributable to reissues to those who turned 18 or 66 for the most part).
The total cost of the project to date is €59.7 million, he said.
He added that it is “very difficult to answer” how many people have had benefits suspended due to a refusal to register for a PSC as “it is a very fluid situation”. He said that about 4,000 free travel passes have been revoked due to a failure to register, but that “most of those people have never engaged with the department”.
Roughly 450 other cases have seen the suspension of a payment, he said, adding that in the department’s opinion “we think they’ve gone abroad”.
Duggan refused to acknowledge the possibility that the DPC’s investigation might have resulted from her requesting of his own department that it produce a guide to the card in order to answer the common questions regarding it. That investigation was announced at the end of October 2017, roughly one month after the production of the department’s Comprehensive Guide to SAFE Registration and the Public Services Card, itself a response to the DPC’s initial request.
“We haven’t heard that she had any issues with that guide,” he said. “But she initiated an investigation into the card after it was produced,” replied Higgins.
“But it doesn’t necessarily follow that’s the reason why,” Duggan replied in turn.
She hasn’t said if she has any difficulties with the guide we produced.
An ID card?
Regarding the idea that the PSC is a national ID card, he denied this.
“A national ID card is an entirely different idea,” he said. “People are generally compelled to carry (such a card).”
We don’t require people to get a card, we require them to satisfy the minister as to their identity.
On the adoption issue, Duggan said that “there are a lot of things that are required to be satisfied to fulfil SAFE2″.
A mother’s birth name is one of these. The same thing is required if you’re getting a passport (anecdotal evidence would suggest this is not the case – many Irish adopted people living without an adoption cert do have a passport).
Two other statements by the DEASP official may come in for scrutiny – he suggested that “it is not mandatory for a social welfare customer to present a PSC at their post office”, and also said, somewhat definitively, that “it is impossible to get a PSC without registering for one”, after Higgins had asked him about a situation which reportedly saw citizens being posted a card without applying for one.
“We would prefer if that was how a payment was processed,” he said regarding the former. “But when a body says you need a card for this, what they mean is that your ID needs to be verified to a substantial level of assurance”.
The latter, meanwhile, appears to contradict DEASP’s own annual report from 2012, which stated that 64,000 ‘low risk’ customers were issued with PSCs that year as a successor to their own free travel card via a ‘reduced registration process’.
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If you are claiming any type of aid/benefit/allowance from the state, you should have the card as ID. If you are merely renewing a drivers licence/passport I don’t see the need for it.
@neuromancer: Facial recognition, there was a guy done for sitting driving tests for other people. He was caught a few times, I think this might have something to do with it.
@Stephen Winterson: I once met a man with two pints story, hearsay and spin.
@Stephen Winterson: Urban legend horseshit.
@neuromancer: http://www.fairsociety.ie/new-id-cards-all-part-of-the-cashless-society-folks/ This is where the card is going.
@neuromancer: Have a read of this. Then you might understand what’s going on.
https://www.mcgarrsolicitors.ie/2017/08/23/public-services-card-id-database-id-card/
@Stephen Winterson: So a passport is not acceptable?
@Dave Doyle: gentlemen I am selling a deluxe line of tinfoil hats, these are really good ones that are designed to make the illuminati and shape shifters glow red in public.
How many can I put you down for?
@Mean Gene Okerlund: Try handing one to Simon McGarr, he might be kinder than i would be.
@neuromancer: If a Forged Passport was used to obtain a Driving License by deception it would be impossible to renew without the card.
@neuromancer: is a tax free allowance not an allowance?
@Bob Allen Peters: Here you go Einstein https://www.irishtimes.com/news/anyone-taking-test-for-another-will-be-prosecuted-warns-official-1.350424?mode=amp
My card arrived in the post today. I never applied for it ad I’ve never received any social welfare payments and passed my driving test years ago. It was very unnerving receiving a card in the post containing my identity including a picture of meand all my details having never given them a picture or my details. The fact they were able to obtain this information from other departments and create an Identity Card for me against my wishes is worrying.
@Caitriona Smith: Did you sign a consent form? I have mine here in a drawer
@Caitriona Smith: Well then they are desperate now to achieve their goal of millions of cards issued.
They took your picture from the Driving Licence Database.
FFFGLAB – Underhand, sneaky, untrustworthy
If you have nothing to hide the card is no issue!
@Bull Spite: such a stupid statement. What if your information was on a website after someone hacking the system. Ever hear of identity theft?
If you have nothing to hide why do you need curtains on your windows??
Privacy is important.
Plus, if government want to introduce a national ID card they should have the belief in their own policies to announce it….
instead of this sneakily trying to get one over on the citizens that has become hallmark FG policy since Household charge and water charges debacles.
People resent and do not forget authorities trying to get one over on them.
@Bull Spite: “if you have nothing to hide,you have nothing to fear” Joseph Goebbels
@Bull Spite: My main concern is about where the data is held. There has to be a centralised location for this data. Is it being held on infrastructure “in-house” and if so, is the physical and cyber security rock solid?
If it’s being held in the cloud, what are the locations of the data centers? What security is in place? Who has access?
So many questions but just try getting an answer…..
@Bull Spite: If that’s the case on having nothing to hide, then why are FG not saying up front that it is an ID card? Why can’t they just end this charade of ‘its not really an ID card, but we want everyone to have it so we can identify their actions’ bull thats spewing out of their mouths every time the PSC is brought up? People would at least have clarity
@Bull Spite: If there is nothing to hide why are the government and the Gardai always covering up and hiding things?
@Shakka1244: no point asking question shere in the comments section of the Journal. Too much misinformation here: “Your DNA is on the PSC”. It is not. “If you give them your mobile number, they know what apps are on your mobile”. Rubbish!
“Questions
If you have general questions about the card or the registration process you can use the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection’s online query form or contact Client Identity Services (see below).
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx
You can also get more information and make an appointment on the official Public Services Card website.https://psc.gov.ie/questions/”
@David Murphey: sorry, typo.
the website is https://psc.gov.ie/
@Paul Cunningham: The simple answer is they can’t. To bring in a National ID Card, biometric or not, the government would firstly deal with the constitutional and legal issues surrounding bring such a card in. Never mind the legislative process and the debate that would have to take place on it. Data held on National ID cards are also subject to EU laws.
This is why the government is trying to pass the card off as merely a “Public Services Card. They are trying to avoid and bypass all the due process needed to bring in a National ID card. They do not want to comply with EU law and regulation on the use of people’s private and personal data.
They are the basic reasons why there is such subterfuge by the government on this card.
@Bull Spite: the issue is.. your passport is your form of I’d. And has always been.
@john doe: everything about this fn government is sly and underhanded. Nothing can be done property unless there is another agenda ..
@Bull Spite: I agree BUT that’s not the point is it? The point is it’s a card for welfare payments that’s supposed to be voluntary.
So a, either make it compulsory or Ditch it and b, as someone who pays tax but claims nothing and is I possession of a passport, a driver’s license and a work I’d issued by the state, why should I be forced to get this ‘voluntary’ card?
@Shakka1244: isnt it better that the information concerning storage is in fact a secret?
Usually keeping something secret is the best way to avoid criminals finding out
The government paid ‘If you have nothing to hide’ trolls are out in force in relation to the issue. The card will be used as a National ID card pure and simple, CCTV cameras are already being set up in Limerick that have facial recognition capabilities. Where do YOU all think they will get the sample image to match your CCTV captured image? I will tell you where from, FROM THE PSC DATA BASE.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
@Bob Allen Peters: i don’t think so, Bob. When i got the PSC, they took the photo with a very basic webcam, similar to one i own.
@David Murphey: The card itself is inert, the data that it refers to is the problem, the ‘basic webcam’ is more than capable of biometric data capture.
It is a basic function of the card to store facial recognition on a database.
That is what the card is being touted for – to recognise faces.
@David Murphey: Then they’ve wasted an awful lot of money. The existing CCTV cameras would be good enough. Why pay for expensive software if it’s not going to be used.
@David Murphey: You claimed it was just a basic camera the other evening. Now it’s a webcam?
@Dave Doyle: same thing, Dave. Basic webcam.
Stop stalking me, Dave.
Still the lies, still the verbal gymnastics, still the denials. Worthless assurances.
The plan for intrusive, invasive, controlling surveillance is still going ahead.
Still no mention about people’s entitlements under EU law and regulation to protection for their private and personal data.
Even the spin they keep going on about “SAFE” all to give the impression that there’s some high standard being applied to the data collected. This “SAFE” is only a dreamed up inhouse method of collecting data. To the usual very unsafe standards.
This PSC is what it is intended to be, a Biometric National ID card, without legislation, without debate, without the checks and balances needed for such an item. A card that will bypass all the requirements under EU law and regulation on people’s private and personal data.
Very strange. So when is an ‘investigation’ from the ODOC an audit and when is it not an audit? Why would phase 2 of the report from this ‘investigation’ be published after the introduction of GDPR in May? Presumably there are data privacy/protection concerns and presumably this report will highlight potential areas of non-compliance? If it does then surely these should be addressed before GDPR comes into effect? More questions than answers here. The PSC looks like another half-baked initiative that will end up partially implemented like eircodes, water charges… and will cost the state €100m+ without ever fulfilling its intended purpose.
A good piece of reporting!!
I don’t have skin in the game either way and I would probably lean towards the “if you’ve nothing to hide” team, but I do wonder why a driving license or passport are no longer valid forms of identification??
The problem here is simple, trust in FG!
People just don’t trust FG…
@Willy Malone: It’s not FG in particular, it’s government (local & national) in general. There are so many incidents of misuse of citizens’ data, massage of statistics, etc, that people have lost what little trust they had in the ‘authorities’.
@Type17: Its ALL FG in particular.As Willie just said, nobody trust’s them.If they are trying to push this through be careful.Passport and driving license should be enough for any form of ID….
Still not getting one.
@eastsmer: you won’t have a choice. I never applied for one but it arrived in the post this morning. ‘Mandatory, not compulsory’
@Caitriona Smith: It does not just arrive in the post.
You have to go and get photographed,
I do have a choice like the lady mentioned in the article.
I will not be branded
@eastsmer: Reading other comments it looks like you are correct. They are using previously harvested photos from driving licence applications for to use on their ID card.
@eastsmer: yes it does arrive after you are notified that you will be getting it
No you don’t need to go and get a photo they use the one they have on file when you got your new credit card style licence
Tied in all ready
I can’t for the love of god understand all the fuss over this card. It’s a perfectly legitimate requirement and I’ve had one for nearly 3 years. I can only assume those objecting or refusing to get one may have something to hide. If as much fuss was made over property tax it would be great
@Joseph Dempsey: it’s so entertaining all this fuss.
If it saves taxpayers money through cutting back on fraud, I see no problem.
@robert acton: Are you under some impression the only fraud in the country is SW fraud?
@Dave Doyle: No.
@Dave Doyle: you’re right Dave. Until we come up with a solution on ending ALL fraud at the same time, we shouldn’t bother.
@Mean Gene Okerlund: Problem seems to be that not alone can we not solve all crime but we cant seem to stop or to solve any white collar crime at all.
This useless gov think they can stop disasters like state bankrupcy happening by exerting as much control as they can on people, and the psc card is part of that, but the fact is, it’s horrendously poor government management and grossly incompetent politicians that’s causing the national disasters.
When you go for your driving licence you deal with a “private” company so you have to give them your card!
So those of us who have renewed our licence have given a private company access to our details on the PPS Card!
So much for the info staying safe!
If it is not a stealth national ID card, why are people’s pensions and bus passes being withdrawn for refusing to register for one. Wether you like it or not register or you don’t exist seems to be the plan. I understand the reason for stopping fraud they need to be able to make sure the right person is getting the right payment but the card with everyone’s information on is not a smart idea as I don’t have confidence that there are enough safeguards in place to protect people from hackers watch this space
Every one should give a DNA sample aswell I’d imagine that would clear up alot of unsolved cases!
Why should you have to take time off work,and loose a days pay
We live in a police state run by bullies liars and cheats. So get used to it we are being spied on morning noon and night.. We might as well apply for and get the spy card then sue them when they leak the information contained on it to their cronies. Ireland, its wealth and people are and have been for sale for a long time now.
hitbit
@Martin Murphy: very few countries don’t have national Id cards.
Funnily enough I wouldn’t class Somalia as being less of a police state than Spain, Italy or france.
I like the way Cianan is using screen shots of his own twitter page in his own article — Nothing like self-publicity…
This card is against anyone’s civil liberties and freedoms. No such item should be implemented in a so called democratic country.
@Daniel Donovan: Totally disagree. Card is a great idea. If you have nothing to hide, what’s the problem with the card? No more getting payments using multiple PPS numbers (it happens). No more having your friend sitting the driving test for you ( it happens). If this is to be this perfect democracy that many are referring to, we need to have proper regulation of our public services.
@Daniel Donovan: not really.
Proof? The rest of the world
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