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EVERY DAY WE see the indiscriminate effects of homophobia and transphobia. Addiction, substance abuse, suicidality are disproportionately common amongst LGBT people.
Outhouse, Dublin’s LGBT has operated a non-commercial LGBT community centre for over 20 years. Alongside confidence and hope, we’ve seen a bewildering range of need, insecurity and overt fear embodied in nearly the 35,000 individuals who walk through our door each year.
We also see people come alive when they enter the building – how they feel at home – but sadly they often fade far into the background when they step back into the public space.
Whitewashing LGBT issues
Some US politicians and media pundits took the focus off the homophobic aspect of Orlando shooting and expediently framed it as Islamic terrorism. We have a history of similar erasure in Ireland. It is the invisibility with which our issues have traditionally been dealt with that compounds our isolation.
According to an LGBTIreland report released in March, one in five LGBT people has suffered physical violence.
Still, in 2016, we do not not have hate crime legislation in Ireland.
The invasive investigations and subsequent court case, where defendants were all acquitted, of the bloody murder of a gay man, Declan Flynn, in Fairview Park in September 1982, illustrated LGBT people’s vulnerability in this state.
It was only in 1997, after a series of ‘gay bashings’, that An Garda Siochána began to engage with hate-motivated crime against members of the LGBT community.
Continuing homphobia
In the climate of celebration following marriage equality, one would be forgiven for thinking homo/transphobia was a thing of the past. But it is clear to us at Outhouse that it’s far from over.
Anyone who believes that this is not true for Ireland should consult the LGBTIreland report. It was described by former President Mary McAleese at its launch as “as essential and revealing as it is horrifying”. “The ongoing damage is undeniable,” she added.
The report documents the stress, anxiety, depression, self-harm, substance misuse, bullying and exclusion of LGBT people, and also outlines the day-to-day victimisation and harassment experienced.
Alarmingly, 30% of the 2,264 respondents had been verbally abused in the past year. Many other reports attest to the fact that our community and health services are hugely underfunded compared with any geographically-based community in this country.
This erasure by the state fuels, and actually ensures, our invisibility and our minority status.
Solidarity
The attack in Orlando strikes a particular fear in the hearts of LGBT people worldwide. It was an attack focused on the kind of space where we feel safe to express ourselves and celebrate together. People just like us were murdered – primarily for being themselves.
Expressing our sympathy and solidarity is important, but we must also continue to support movements for full equality and inclusion in Ireland, and we must support such efforts worldwide. We cannot be cowed by these attacks. We must harness our anger and upset, continue to claim our spaces and celebrate our diversity.
Outhouse has opened a book of condolence for the Orlando victims for the entire month of June at 105 Capel St, Dublin. It is open from 10am-10pm Monday-Friday, and on Saturdays from 1-6pm.
George Robotham is the Director and co-founder of Outhouse.
There is a story on the Facebook page “In Her Shoes” where a young woman had to get a termination abroad but couldnt tell at home because her father could only insist it is a murder. They don’t know until this day. This shows abortion can happen in any family, just if it was my daughter, I would be by her side but this poor girl had to suffer alone and ask strangers for help. I think her parents will never know and be profound no voters. Don’t let down your kids, vote yes, life is a long thing and you never know when your own kid might need some compassion.
@Marie McCormack: when a child can trust her parent and knows that her parent or parents are there for her, without judgment, without condemnation, without accusation and recrimination, that is unconditional love and true respect.
Imagine having to resort to the support of strangers at the time you could really do with support of those closest to you but knowing that they are so strongly pro-life, they would not accept the legitimacy of your decision.
@Thomas Francis: no babies involved. Babies are prevented.
@John Smith: no child is involved. Abortion concerns a foetus.
@Marie McCormack: What about compassion for the baby being aborted. How is abortion showing compassion. This girl deserved better support from society to have a baby and not kill it. the fact that she could not tell her parents is pathetic as it shows a certain cowardness and selfishness from this woman not to be strong enough to let the developing child live.
@Michael Lang:
‘unconditional love’ is having the baby, not having a ‘doctor’ inject Digoxin into her tiny heart to kill her.
@Thomas Francis: your are failing to distinguish between a foetus and a baby. Legalizing abortion pills in Ireland will avoid what your describe and what you are so obsessed with to the degree of unhealthy prurience.
@Dan Boyle: so to be clear a woman is a selfish , weak coward if she has an abortion ? Some views you have there of women …
@Thomas Francis: You guys keep posting. The more we get to read this stuff the better. Young women need to be reminded about the level of control currently exercised over them, and the sort of people exercising that control.
@Dan Boyle: not true. Just she knew better than going for help to her own parents. Her coworkers mother helped her in France. Made me cry. Ever thought your own kids might be going abroad on the boat in the darkness and you will never know because you are blinded to reality? They won’t come to you, because they probably know how your reaction will be. I will always stand by my daughter whatever decision she makes. If a no vote wins, it does not mean abortions will stop, they will be exported as usual, from any family, voting yes or no, just your kids will suffer so much more, in loneliness, without support, asking coworkers for help. Sad on so many levels.
@Michael Lang:
Michael, LIFE begins at conception; who can reasonably deny that ?
At some point you are going to have to accept this – if only to yourself – else all else is based on situational ethics – and so sand.
Abortionist murder unborn babies by causing a heart attack though the use of Dioxin or potassium chloride.What a horrific death of an innocent.
@Thomas Francis: Life does not mean a human being.
@Marie McCormack: Your ok with murdering your grandkids then
@Thomas Francis: Actually both the egg and sperm are alive before hand, but that’s beside the point. The reality is that not enough people care either way.
And they’re not interested in your opinion either.
But you work away “Tom”.
@Michael Lang:
‘Life does not mean a human being.’
Michael, seriously now, if you keep this up you can’t but end up at what can only be the logical conclusion: your value exists only as that of an active (or future potentially active) economic entity. All else is disposable.
You’re a clever chap, and I sincerely hope you have a Damascus moment of insight before you’ve coursed your heart to the point of numb indifference; for this is surely the road that you’re currently on.
@Michael Lang: anyone who has seen a scan of their 12 week old child in the womb will know exactly what it is, a child. All the dehumanising terminology in the world will not charge that.
@Thomas Francis: Conception, or fertilisation, is the fusion of two gametes to form a new organism. In the case of humans, the majority of such fusions will result in a spontaneous abortion. With quite a number happening within the first month or two meaning many people wouldn’t be aware they were technically pregnant. While most people won’t disagree that the cells involved in the beginnings of foetal developement are alive. The zygote or embryo is wholly under developed & completely incompatible with life outside a uterus. This is not a life in the context you are purporting. If these lives were, they could easily be removed from a person’s uterus & continue development in another location. In the UK in 2016 92% of abortions were under 13 weeks, with 81% under 10 weeks.
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: 50% of children killed in abortions are female.
@John Smith: no, there are women that have seen that scan and seen nothing but their own death. Dehumanising? No, legal and medically accurate? Yes. Medicine and the law are no place for emotions to set the standards.
@Marie McCormack: Sorry when I think of Abortion, compassion doesn’t spring to mind.
@John Smith:children are born
are you actually saying that this is a “child” ?https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/images/e/e4/Stage11_sem21.jpg
so adorable :)
@John Smith: exactly.. Save the 8th for the nations children… #savethe8th there is nothing compassionate about voting yes. It’s thoughtless and cruel.. this referendum is about healthy women aborting healthy children…
@Michael Lang: yeah keep telling yourself that. You and people like you are the reason that the pro life side are going to win. Everyone sees thought your propaganda and lies. And it doesn’t ultimately matter what you call it, everyone knows that what you propose is the killing of a developing human being.
@Stephen Duffy: so it’s not ‘thoughtless and cruel’ to have a woman carry a dying foetus inside of her for weeks on end \O/ or for a rape victim to have to go to the UK to end her pregnancy \O/ #antilogicatitsverybest
@Jeremy DeChad:the actual human being (woman) is the person that gets to decide (with her doctor) on whether that non viable embryo gets to stay attached to her womb.Cry away
@It’s A Bay-bee!: I am definitely not crying. What you say is partly true and partly false for now at least. False in that it cannot happen in Ireland hence saving countless lives and the sanity of many of your sex.
@Thomas Francis: Abortion up to 12 weeks will be performed by taking a tablet, at 12 weeks the ‘unborn baby is 2 inches long and the size of a lime, impossible to inject a syringe into.
@Marie McCormack: ” Dont let down your kids”. My kids started off in the womb and I believe they deserved protection from then. I believe that protection belongs to all kids born and unborn. Voting no.
@Stephen Duffy ; can you explain to every single person on here as to how this isn’t cruel ?
@Chris Martin: So you believe that ‘human life’ only started in the womb.Interesting
@It’s A Bay-bee!: well it’s not a dog.
@Marie McCormack: Wow, what a revelation.
@Thomas Francis: absolute rubbish!
@Dave O Keeffe: exploiting FFA to achieve abortion on demand is not appropriate, they represent 2% of abortions, 97% of abortions are healthy children being aborted by healthy mothers, people are starting to realise this, hence the shift towards NO.
@It’s A Bay-bee!: If you believe an unborn child is not a child/life your conscience will have no problems voting for repeal, personally my conscience could never allow that.
@It’s A Bay-bee!: FFA and rape victims make up less than 4% of abortions, exploiting them to achieve abortion on demand is shameful.
@John Smith: funny, I neither mention or referred to FFA
@Dave O Keeffe: you also never mentioned 97% of abortions are healthy children being aborted by healthy mothers, you did say mothers seeing the scan of their child are seeing their own death, funny that isn’t it!?
@John Smith: correct it is shameful. Shame on you Francis.
@John Smith: exactly
@Dan Boyle: you can bang on about better support from society which definitely yes should happen, but this is only of a concern to you NOW. Have you ever done anything about it before this referendum was announced?…
This anti-choice groups simply do not care about either the foetus or the mother. And it’s shown in their history. They have done nothing, or very little to increase support for women’s healthcare especially during pregnancy. And this won’t change whatever way the result goes after the 25th May.
LoveBoth simply love no one.
@Michael Lang: in your opinion Michael
@John Smith: if there is ever a child in a womb something has gone drastically wrong, that’s some Benjamin button stuff
@Dave O Keeffe: whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your decisions.
Each pregnant woman knows her own induvudual circumstances best. She is therefir best placed to make her own decision based on her own circumstances. She should be fully supported in that decision.
If a pregnant woman decides to have an abortion, she is arranging the termination of an undeveloped and inchoate entity, a foetus. It is not a baby and may never be a baby. It is a contingent entity.
There is no way that there can be a baby in the womb. Once the baby is born, it would smother if returned to the womb. There is no reason to put a baby in the womb.
@Michael Lang: just another desperate attempt to deflect from the fact that abortion is the ending of a human life, people are starting to see through the dehumanising terminology and realising that 97% of abortions are healthy children being aborted by healthy mothers, hence the shift in support for NO.
@John Smith: abortion prevents the life of a human being starting. It does not end it.
@John Smith: there is no child, no baby, no miniature human being, no cute little one unless or until it has been born.
@Marie McCormack: Did the young woman have a consensual sex at the age of consent?
@John Smith: agree. Just a sample of some of the pathetic attempts to dehumanise the human life inside… “clump of cells”, “non sentient cell mass”, “potential human” and of course my Tony favourite, “proto human”. I have four kids and not once did my wife ever refer to the “proto human” kicking, or “Look there’s an elbow from the clump of cells”, “Hey look a heel from the parasitic non sentient cell mass using my organs”. The language from the hard core inhumane pro abortionist cohort is sickening. Undecided voters, pay heed. This is what we are passing the next generation over to. Inhumane robots who describe babies as “proto humans” and protest about their organs being “used” by their offspring, viewing the life inside as an alien, not a human being remember, parasite.
@Sean @114: it is matter of clear biological differentiation. A foetus and a baby are separate and mutually exclusive categories.
You can’t get a passport for a foetus, a foetus does not not qualify for children’s allowance, a foetus is not a citizen, the abortion of a foetus is not recognised as murder or manslaughter, a foetus is not counted in a Census, and in so many ways society, the law and practicality din’t recognise as a foetus as a human being with legal personality.
You can pretend and imagine a 12 week old foetus as a 6 month old baby, you can have all of the emotional affectation that you like, you can have all the hope and expectation that you want but a foetus is still a foetus and a baby is a baby. That’s just how it is.
@John Smith: when will you start your campaign to have pregnant women counted as two at census time? Or to have all identification documents changed to have a date of conception instead of a date of birth?
@Michael Lang: it saddens me to hear someone speak so dismissively of another human being but we can only vote according to our conscience.
@Michael Lang: saying it doesn’t make it so.
@John Smith: As shameful as peddling propaganda from an anonymous account “John “?
If the sex was consensual in the age of consent it was her choice and her responsibility to deal with consequences. It is sad that parents could not help her and sad that abortion services were not available here. Let kids being kids and adults being adults which means taking responsibility for your own actions.
@Danny Rafferty: translation – you can’t attack the message so you attack the messenger.
@Dan Boyle: would say u r popular with the ladies that is a vile comment
@John Smith: since when is a feotus a child?
@Michael Lang: Congratulations honey we are having a foetus
@John Smith: still no launch date for your census campaign?
@Dan Boyle: your ridiculous comments r great for the pro choice side keep me coming
@Elvis Polkasalad: I never heard of a man having a foetus. You have a womb! Impressive. Did you get yourself pregnant?
@Thomas Francis:
Tell us how potassium chloride and digoxin is even remotely relevant to the referendum.
I assume that you are aware of that the substances you mentioned are used in late second trimester and third trimester abortions.
I also assume that you are aware of that abortion will be restricted beyond 12 weeks pregnancy.
See, when you resort to vile language, sensationalist one-liners, half truths and scare mongering, well, maybe you’ve lost the debate.
I can understand and appreciate anyone who has a view different than mine, but rationalising it, and trying to make a case, through lies and sheer nonsense, well, that’s just sad.
@Dog Eat Fog: the unintended consequences of repeal are. a. The courts can change the law as happened in Canada so there is no limit on abortion right up to birth. b. The govt. can also relax the law e.g. part of a program for govt. with Ms. Zappone. The great thing about the 8th is that it is the people’s law which only we can change and it has saved so much human life including many of the great young generation in this country. Therefore lets give a resounding no to political interference in our fundamental law so they will never get to use chemicals to burn human beings and other gross techniques used in late term abortions i.e. unless the people so decide.
@Elvis Polkasalad: “congratulations we’re having a foetus” your biology teacher deserves a slap
@Sean @114: Still trying with your emotional BS :)
By the way,aren’t you the “pro life” guy that doesn’t care if a woman throws herself off Liberty Hall,once she is not pregnant..Shame on you!
@John Smith: you also never mentioned 97% of abortions are healthy children being aborted by healthy mothers <- have you got a credible source for your emotional laden BS ?
@Jeremy DeChad: “right up to birth” <- eh?
How many 'late term' abortions are there in Canada ? And what is the reason for them?
@Jeremy DeChad:
“burn human beings” is your punchline. Ok.
Tell me, do you actually have a thought on your own in this matter, or is this bandwagon drivel of half truths, lies and sensationalist garbage all you have to offer?
@Marie McCormack: absolutely
@It’s A Bay-bee!: Anyone still on the fence for whatever reason should watch. Can’t believe the inhumanity being perpetuated by the no side.
@Michael Lang: hasn’t it mostly been like that? The girls and women who ended up in magdelaine laundries, in religious institutions for mothers and babies, by the thousands they were rejected by their families, it’s only in recent years that compassion has began to filter through, perhaps we can thank the heterosexual womaniser Bishop Casey for opening our eyes to hypocracy, our own and the church’s.
@Michael Lang: your Shite beggars belief
@Toon Army: i will be sharing that video on every abortion article from now on in…this is the ‘real’ torture of what the 8th amendment does to Irish women..shame on all the “save the 8th ” folks..
@Michael Lang: it seems the fetus only has any sort of value in the situation where the mother wants it. Then it is celebrated, worried about, the entirity of society should protect it and give special privilege to the mother and people should fuss over her, and generally make a big deal about it…because well it is a special thing. Its a rather miraculous thing to bring forth a new generation to strive forth with society. But only if the mother wants it. If she doesnt its a bunch of cells, nothing more than an inconvenience and has no value. Why is that? Why does the mothers subjective and emotional response to the fetus determine its worth to society? Why should it? Why is it being denied any right to exist beside a fetus that is wanted?? Its not the fault of the fetus. It had no choice
@Marie McCormack: SORRY but your typical of an irish parent , so sure of every thing…
@Dog Eat Fog: 12 weeks or not girls can always go to england. so whats the point of all the arguing in ireland…
@Kevin Tyrrell: want to treat a foetus like a child? Fine, let the parents decide and mind your own business
@Roibeard O’ Beachain: anyone who has seen a scan of their child in the first trimester knows very well it’s a child, all the dehumanising terminology in the world won’t change that.
@Dave O Keeffe: want to kill children on demand? Not in this country.
@John Smith: funnily enough that’s not what the legislation would allow but you already knew that
More lies.
@John Smith: our courts have already ruled that a foetus is not a child. Science agrees
@Dave O Keeffe: you use whatever terminology you want and I’ll do the same.
@Dave O Keeffe: so making that choice is entirely appropriate then? You talk like the fetus is hers to do with as she pleases. Like its hers or she owns it. Its a separate entity in its entirity. The last time people owned other entities and could terminate them as they please was in Confederate states in the USA…they were called slaves. There is a reason we dont let individuals determine the rights of any entity. It never ends well for the entity which is under another’s power to do with it what it wants.
@Kevin Tyrrell: you realise that to be a separate entity you have to be capable of being separate right? Funny you should bring up slavery and the confederacy on an issue where current legislation takes freedom away from a woman once she becomes pregnant.
@Kevin Tyrrell: on ownership, why don’t we let the state make decisions for children once they’re born? Vaccines for example, parents are allowed to decide to risk their child’s iLife and that of others without state interference and that’s after the child gains the rights granted at birth
@Laura Sova: right laura so what if it wasn’t consensual? And she gets pregnant, do you think she should be forced to carry this pregnancy?
Or if it was consensual and the foetus has no chance of survival outside the womb? Should she be forced to carry this pregnancy to full term?
@John Smith: What messenger? You’re anonymous? You’re a no one.
Hey, journal.ie, you forgot to do a story for the 2nd weekend in a row on large gains for No and disastrous loses for pro abortion Yes.
38% lead for yes cut to 11%.
How is this not newsworthy?
@eric nelligan: if a news outlet can’t even report stories like that how can it be trusted with any other news? censoring as very as blatant bias alive and well at TheJournal.ie.
@eric nelligan: interesting, I wasn’t aware of that, can you post a link?
@eric nelligan: I don’t think it will be a victory regardless of the outcome unless the Government quickly moves to undo the polarising nature in the way politicians structured the vote even though the trends in society favored this unjust legal entitlement issue.
Refcom doesn’t mention the word abortion even though it advertises on tv that it is the only source of impartiality out there while every dog in the street knows it is ending the life of a developing child.
@eric nelligan:
It’s not newsworthy to the NUJ and their fellow-travellers because it’s (like the pro-life facts) an inconvenient truth.
@eric nelligan: They will have the story in a while as they are working on the spin, The indo had this story yesterday but only released it this evening while also working to spin it. But despite the spin the figures speak volumes, none of the other MSM are running it as it does not suit the national MSM agenda,
@eric nelligan: Is that the survey that was commissioned by the Sunday indo? If it was it wouldn’t really be common practice for a different news agency to report on it. Calling it censorship is a bit hysteric!
@eric nelligan: Meanwhile over in the Irish Times we have articles on Gender Pay Gap, Gender Equality, Brexit and whatever parochial news takes your fancy. It’s like the Abortion referendum has fallen off a cliff. Just like the Journal, who have such a fetish for polls and surveys, there is nothing these days on this critical referendum. It must have something to do with the Department of Health and the HSE taking such a walloping from the Cervical Check scandal.
@Gkell1: Refcom doesn’t mention abortion because their remit is the question on the ballot and nothing more. That point should be clear from their name.
Still no link to the poll then?
@Dave O Keeffe: is also like to see that poll
@Dave O Keeffe:it is true…https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/parents-angered-by-referendum-posters-470336.html
@eric nelligan: no they’d much rather run with some fake information instead. This 170,000 women having gone to the UK for abortion is BS. No matter how many times the pro-abortion lobby are corrected they still use this fake information. Approximately one third of women having abortions are having their second or more abortion. Even ignoring those that had more than 2 abortions, that 170,000 abortions relates to approximately 130,000 women having abortions. I wish they’d get that straight. The Irish Times did a so-called fact-check on the 170,000 women claim and made absolute fools of themselves in doing so…..
@eric nelligan:
Dear Mr Nelligan,
I am a pedant but it is necessary to inform you „hey“ is not an acceptable form of address on this side of the Atlantic Ocean.
@Stephen Duffy:Has there been 170,000 abortion procedures on Irish women in the UK ? Yes or No?
@Stephen Duffy:Has there been 170,000 abortion procedures on Irish women in the UK ? Yes or No?
@It’s A Bay-bee!: my contribution relates to the first sentence of the second paragraph. Which is fake information.. that’s my point…
@Dave O Keeffe: A bit of paraphrasing is necessary -
“The PROPOSED new Article 40.3.3
Provision may be made by law for the regulation of
termination of pregnancy”
https://refcom2018.refcom.ie/refcom-guide-2018-english.pdf
Paraphrased
“The PROPOSED new Article 40.3.3
Provision may be made to change the role of the law in granting entitlements to end the life of a child in the womb up to 12 weeks for no reason”
The impartiality on the law is that it treats accidental death (medical issues) differently than willful intent to end life (repeal) so the proposal is a swindle .
@John Meade: I was asleep when you asked for the link; can you forgive me this time? Anyway here are the relevant articles:
Last Feb poll, Go to page 24, 63% Yes and 24% No
Yesterday’s Polls, 45% Yes 34%
Therefore a loss of 18% to yes and a gain of 10% to No.
28% swing.
Hope that suffices for all the doubters……
@DeFonz: you are correct, ‘Hey’ is slightly rude and it’s not a term I use often or like using, however in this case you reinforced my reasoning for using it. I used ‘Hey’ to Sett the time, to imply unhappiness and to draw attention to poor journalistic standards by TheJournal.ie
The continued one sided and biased nature of articles, the failure to public a very real story that goes against their viewpoint must be highlighted, hopefully people reading here will begin to question the impartially of the stories here. How can this site be a valid and trustworthy source of relevance of stories like this are ignored?
Can we trust it on other stances and stories published?
@eric nelligan: wow I didn’t think it would get this close and with 18% still struggling with their conscience this could go right down to the wire. The pure arrogance and dismissiveness of the Yes side is coming back to bite them. They just don’t get it unfortunately. Abortion on demand is a step too far.
@eric nelligan: a number of typos above, I offer my apologies. Typing on an iPhone when tired is all I can assign it to!!!
@Sean @114: people will ultimately decide for their own reasons and it will have nothing to do with the offensive Pro-Life / Pro-Lie side or with the passionate Pro-choice side. Most people, zealots apart, will make their own decision, some influenced by the milieu and circumstances of where they live and the attitude of the community they are part of.
The single biggest influencer will be in the case of those still in thrall to the Roman Catholic Church and feeling compelled to follow the orders if the Roman Catholic Church. That will deliver a starting advantage to the Pro-Lie side of around 20% or more.
Fortunately, an increasing number of individual Roman Catholics are no longer straight jacketed by the institutional Roman Catholic Church. They may be individually opposed as a matter of conscience to abortion but they don’t feel the need to use the Cinstutution and draconian laws to bludgeon pregnant women into submitting to religious dogma.
@eric nelligan: considering the NO side are so in favour of lobbing the proposed legislation after repeal in with the actual amendment to the constitution which is being asked, the numbers are… consistent.
Feb Indo poll found 48% in favour of the Gov’s proposal, 33% against, 19% undecided.
Latest poll found… 45% in favour, 34% against, 18% undecided…
@Michael Lang: your post there is exactly why the Yes pro abortion vote is in free fall and about to lose a lead that’ll dwarf Trump and Brexit combined
There is compassion on both sides, there are zealots on both sides;
Voting No focuses on solutions for both mother and baby, abortions kills one and lets the other with years of pain.
@eric nelligan: free-fall of.. 3%, i.e. within the margin of error?
@eric nelligan: we have found common ground! I accept that the factors which drove the election of Trump and the passing of Brexit will also be the factors which support the Pro-Lie side.
@eric nelligan: what solutions has the pro-life lobby suggested for rape? Incest? Failed contraceptives?
@Quango: I see Leo’s spin unit is still in operation. Is Rudy the best you can come up with after a whole day of media black out and propaganda prep.
Read the links posted above, when voting intentions asked and responded a 28% swing to No.
Pro Choice mis information on the drive again. You’ve been at it so long undecideds and people of conscience running away from you.
@Michael Lang: so the pro life side has offensive people & the pro
Choice side are merely “passionate” when they ridicule people’s religious beliefs. You are beyond credibility at this stage.
@eric nelligan: If “spin” is considered quoting directly from news outlets.
Indo article from Feb 18th: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/poll-shows-strong-support-in-favour-of-abortion-referendum-but-12-week-proposal-splits-public-36615455.html
“…a combined 48pc in favour.
“However, 33pc said unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks ‘went too far’ and a further 19pc were undecided – a combined 52pc against or unsure.”
Your link above from yesterday’s Indo (same news site): https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/poll-young-urban-women-giving-yes-side-referendum-edge-but-it-is-a-narrow-lead-36877996.html
“When the undecideds are included, the poll shows 45% in favour, 34% against, with 18% undecided and 4% who did not express an opinion.”
@Dave O Keeffe: Eric forgot to switch profiles before commenting to himself
@Enda Rochford: id be interested to know what other account you think I am?
@Gkell1: a bit silly of you to refer to a foetus as a child when quoting law considering legal they have been ruled as different in this country already
@Dave O Keeffe: ” a bit silly of you to refer to a foetus as a child when quoting law considering legal they have been ruled as different in this country already”
At least you are consistent Dave but medicine can determine boy or girl at 7 weeks so it takes a person with a lower standard of reasoning to attempt to dehumanise that boy or girl after this medical milestone
https://www.easydna.ie/baby-gender-test/
Being enthusiastic about extermination policy is a mob conviction whereas those who are more considerate can look how these entitlement policies worked in other countries by undermining law and order. Some countries like the States are struggling to recover some sort of balance whereas they are numb in the UK to the damage it did to their society.
The medical terms for the developing boy or girl in the womb overlap the usual language after they were born but only people with a higher standard of reasoning and humane consideration get this. It happened before in history when astronomical language made allowances for previous less technical perspectives but unfortunately this too was lost to history .
“Copernicus himself knew the power over our ideas that is exerted by
custom and by our inveterate way of conceiving things since infancy.
Hence, in order not to increase for us the confusion and difficulty of
abstraction, after he had first demonstrated that the motions which
appear to us to belong to the sun or to the firmament are really not
there but in the earth, he went on calling them motions of the sun and
of the heavens when he later constructed his tables to apply them to
use. He thus speaks of “sunrise” and “sunset,” of the “rising and
setting” of the stars, of changes in the obliquity of the ecliptic and
of variations in the equinoctial points, of the mean motion and
variations in motion of the sun, and so on. All these things really
relate to the earth, but since we are fixed to the earth and
consequently share in its every motion, we cannot discover them in the
earth directly, and are obliged to refer them to the heavenly bodies
in which they make their appearance to us. Hence we name them as if
they took place where they appear to us to take place; and from this
one may see how natural it is to accommodate things to our customary
way of seeing them.” Galileo
@Gkell1: you are blinded by starlight and rendered dizzy by the rotation of the planets. You epitomize the dogma of the pro-lies side. No wonder you are so popular.
@eric nelligan: Dave asked you a very valid question ; what solutions have the “love both” side come up with for people that have been raped/incest ,failed contraceptives-and i’ll add FFA to that equation ?
@Gkell1: eh, not at all on the same subject. When talking about law it’s best to be accurate. Our courts have already determined that a foetus is not the same as a child or a baby.
@eric nelligan: what’s your source of these percentage gains?
Using UK abortion figures as a guideline to future numbers in Ireland after a period of normalisation, there would be 38 abortions every single day in this country, the 8th saves lives every day, it would be insane to remove it.
@John Smith: how did you get to 38?
@Dave O Keeffe: The UK had 190000 abortions in 2016, 0.3% of its population, that equates to 14400 in Ireland, which is actually 39 per day, I’m not saying it would reach that figure immediately but after a period of normalisation…… We would be insane to remove the protection of the 8th when it’s responsible for saving so many lives every year.
@John Smith: that’s just speculative. There are many separate factors in Ireland.
@John Smith: So true – and in a case very close to me – a life was saved precisely because of the logistics involved in getting to Britain.
@Michael Lang: what seperate factors would they be ?
@John Smith: wow what a clueless logical falacy, if that were true ever single demographic statistic between ireland and england would align similarly which they very much do not
@Elvis Polkasalad: culture, religiosity and social pressure,.
@John Smith: What a joke. The policy fails AT LEAST 12 times a day and you’re asking people to retain and defend that.
Sorry, I’ll be voting to remove that ridiculous article from our constitution so we can have some common sense laws.
@John Smith: Your figures may or may not be correct. Your problem is that, despite the desperate barrel scraping, emotive arguments from the No side, you’re not convincing enough people and there’s no suggestion your going to either.
Not enough people care “John”.
@Michael Lang: we would be foolish not to look to our nearest neighbour for guidance on future abortion numbers in this country.
@Ian McNally: we would be foolish not to look to our nearest neighbour for guidance on future abortion numbers in this country. Getting angry at me because you don’t like whet the numbers are telling you is pointless.
@Danny Rafferty: people can only be expected to vote according to their conscience.
@Danny Rafferty: polls suggest momentum is with one side, and it’s not the yes side.
@John Smith: eh you literally plucked a number out of thin air. Still nobody has posted a link th these fabled polls. I’ll expect more than one now since you’re always so accurate woth your numbers and have clearly said polls. Good lad
@John Smith: also, I’m sure you subtracted the Irish abortions performed in the UK when doing the “math” in your original comment right?
@John Smith: is it me or are some people just assuming that women make a decision to have a termination in an instant? It must be such a difficult decision for them to make, also on another note if “abortion is murder” does that mean “miscarriage is manslaughter”?
@John Smith: In fact there have been 8.5 million abortions in GB since it became legal. Figures to date show that is a 100 % increase in England and Wales and a 240% increase in Scotland ! Is that what we want as a country! But are we a country that has”38″ unwanted babies born every day either. I ask the question ‘does birth control really fail that much’?
@Missyb211: yes it does
@Missyb211: “Is that what we want in this country?” What a ridiculous and narrow mind view to have on such a complex, sensitive and emotive issue!! Do we want to keep exporting our female population to other countries or do we want to grow up, accept the issue and deal with it in a professional and competent way….or just keep sweeping it under the carpet??!!
@John Meade: Some women actually know what there decision would be if their contraception fails, long before they even have sex. Its not unusual for Irish women to have an ‘abortion fund’ in savings just in case
@Simon Connolly: a “professional competent” way is not to open up the floodgates and have 30 – 40 abortions a day here with an on demand provision. A professional manner would be to legislate for it in certain circumstance, health, FFA, rape etc. Unfortunately the government have messed it up with the proposed on demand provision up to 3 months.
@Dave O Keeffe: here’s the poll, still not there yet but for the second week in a row, a clear shift towards support for the 8th.
@Dave O Keeffe: even accounting for the 3265 travelling and 1000 abortion pills, that still leaves over 10000 lives saved by the 8th every single year, the stakes are that high, it would be insane to remove the protection of the 8th.
@John Meade: in the UK, 50 women have more than 10 abortions, 40% of them more than 2, that’s 50 women responsible for 500 dead children, nobody wants that in this country, an abortion is the the deliberate ending of another human life.
@Graham Wilson: the normalisation of abortion in this country would lead to similar numbers of abortions in this country, that’s 14400 lost lives every single year, where is your compassion for them?
@Pale Blue Dot: and your evidence for this “fund” is?
@Sean @114: how do you propose legislating for rape, considering it takes years to even get to court?
@Jenni Harrison: Poland does it so it can be done.
@Jenni Harrison: would it take years under new legislation if the state judicial system was to bring all it’s forces to bear to process a handful of cases each year? I’d rather see this then bring in a law to legalise killing babies on demand.
@John Smith: 80% of the over 3000 were using contraception
@It’s A Bay-bee!: no it doesn’t! It’s 99.9% effective! lol.
If Repeal is successful does this mean that all those who were passionately and strongly opposed to abortion in all circumstances will now feel free to have an abortion, regardless of their moral position on the subject of abortion?
@John Smith: The best way to prevent abortion is through education and equal rights for men and women. So if the Yes vote goes through, I hope the government significantly increases the budget for education and accessibility to good education for all.
@Thunder Snowman: education is always good, but the lack of education is not justifcation to legalise abortion on demand.
@John Smith: i don’t understand where you are pulling these numbers from. How do you know that 100,000 more abortions would have happened here if it were available? Don’t not back up nonsense math with made up math
@John Smith: Sorry “John” you must be new around here.
If not you would know I don’t entertain rubbish from anonymous accounts. You’re nothing more than an anonymous fantasist and have no such information from any reputable source.
And you won’t be convincing anyone else as a result either.
@Danny Rafferty: well I’m happy for you not to entertain me, if you think not acknowledging the truth is going to make it go away, well good luck with that.
@Dave O Keeffe: I’m just telling you what the stats say, after a period of normalisation it’s perfectly reasonable to suggest we would have a similar abortion rate as the UK, that’s 14400 in THIS COUNTRY compared to 3265 traveling, it would be insane to remove the 8th.
@John Smith: Their divorce rate is 4 times higher than ours. Can you explain the discrepancy? Maybe their abortion rate will also stay 4 times higher than ours. Would that be OK with you?
@John Smith: oh ok, so it’s a suggested possible fact then. Probably best.ñ not to rely on guesswork
@John Smith: There probably will be more than 38 abortions per day if the 8th Amendment is overturned, because they will be easier to obtain. But the central question — which few discuss — is when does a human life becomes a human person? Scientists and most of the public agree that a human life begins at conception. Almost everyone agrees that a newborn is a human person. But there is no consensus on when human life becomes a human person. I personally believe that it happens about the 24th week of pregnancy when the fetal brain’s higher functions first turn on and the fetus becomes sentient — able to sense its environment to some degree. I feel that once sentience is attainge, that abortions should be restricted to those needed to prevent the death or serious disability to the mother.
@John Smith: I never said that “John”. Acknowledging the truth is acknowledging that no reputable poll shows the No side prevailing. Acknowledging the truth would also mean the No side pulling down a lot of posters with lies on them. Acknowledging the truth would be acknowledging that despite your desperate, anonymous, emotive and well well worn mantras, not enough people agree with you or care about your fantasy opinion.
Acknowledging the truth would be acknowledging that you’re actually ashamed of the tactics you employ. If you were not, you would proudly post under your real name and have the courage to stand over what you say.
You remember Jack Nicholson don’t you?
@Bruce Robinson: that is a considered, thoughtful and rational comment.
@Elise: and the anti-divorce crowd said that we’d end up with the same divorve rates as England too….why are we even looking ar England statistics??? In spite of our close proximity to England, we should acknowledge that we’re comparing apples and oranges and should just stop.
@Sean @114: except that its not “on demand”!! Thats the point…if you think that a woman choses willy nilly to have an abortion then you need to educate yourself on the subject before making general sweeping statement like “its on demand”…its a last resort for woman you have no where else to turn..but i wouldnt expect you to understand that given your evident narrow mindedness..
@Missyb211: yes it does..women/men are human beings-errors will happen..she might miss a pill..get the runs,his condom slips off..so many things can go wrong…why do people want to punish a woman with an unwanted “child” ? By the way,isn’t a pregnancy/childbirth a very risky event ?
@Sean @114: That’s because you’re a fantasist Sean
@Danny Rafferty:Sean said ‘legalise killing babies on demand’ <- poor guy believes that a non viable embryo is the same as a neonate.
@John Smith: BS, did you read how many girls and women go to the UK everyday for abortions? You can take it the figure is much higher than that, what with girls using UK family addresses etc.
@John Smith: Whats more important. Bringing more people in to this world what ever the cost or bringing people in to this world that are wanted, cared for and cherished.
@It’s A Bay-bee!: Poor aul Sean.
@Elise: Divorce is far more restrictive in Ireland compared to the UK.
@Dave O Keeffe: it’s far from guesswork, it would be foolish not to look to our nearest neighbour for guidance on future abortion numbers in this country.
@Bruce Robinson: well you have to vote according to your beliefs and conscience, if you believe 24 weeks and under is justified you should have no problem repealing, however, having seen scans of children in the first trimester, the idea that child is not a life is proposterous.
@Danny Rafferty: No need for the meandering rant, polls for the last 2 weeks have shown the NO side gaining ground substantially, you are well aware of what this means for the YES campaign, hence your rant. Considering you’re advocating an abortion on demand regime, it’s clear the shame lies with you.
@helen walsh: once the proposed abortion regime becomes normalised in this country, there will be 14400 children being killed in THIS COUNTRY instead of 3265 travelling, it would be insane to remove the protection of the 8th when it saves so many lives.
@Leitrim303: you’re talking about human beings, should anyone who is not lived and cared for be lined up and shot?
@John Smith: you haven’t shown your work. Perhaps because you’re just guessing that the rate will be the same. What makes you think it would be?
@Dave O Keeffe: I’m looking to the UK statistics for guidance on future abortion numbers, we would be foolish not to, you’re welcome to bury your head in the sand.
@John Smith: what are you basing the assumption that we’d be similar on? I know inventing statistics make you feel like you have a point but you really, really don’t
@Dave O Keeffe: I’m not inventing stastics, I’m using established UK statistics for guidance on future abortion numbers in this country, we would be foolish not to. Here’s another statistic from the UK, 50 women have had 10 or more abortions, that’s 50 women responsible for the death of 500 children, pretty devastating stat if you’re pushing abortion on demand right? It’s little wonder you’re in full deflection mode.
@John Smith: so you still refuse to say what you’re basing the assumption that we’ll be the same on? Good for you, stick to fiction, that way you can pretend you’re not dehumanising women while ignoring the laws of this country that define the foetus and its rights
Thankfully, we have the safety valve of travel to the UK to avail of abortion. Of course, that option is only open to those women well enough, with access to enough money and independent enough to travel.
@Michael Lang: have any legal abortions been carried out in ireland in the last few years ? if your answer is yes , could you tell me on what grounds {why they were carried out
@Elvis Polkasalad: the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 is extremely cumbersome and on,y allows legal abortion in Ireland where there is a real, substantial and present threat to the life of the pregnant woman. I don’t have access to the current figures. Travel to the UK is often more practical.
@Elvis Polkasalad: Why don’t you do your own research? Having issues committing to the cause “Elvis”.
@Michael Lang: so even with the 8th as it is , if a womans life is in danger or she suffers from an illness or if she says she is sucidel ,she will be giving an abortion in Ireland ,
@Elvis Polkasalad: entirely incorrect in law. Only a present, real and substantial threat to the pregnant woman’s life. It is unfortunate that you are being so intentionally dishonest or Pro-Lie
@Danny Rafferty: i am 2 steps ahead
@Michael Lang: can a woman get her child aborted if she says she is suicidel ? or suffers from an illness
@Michael Lang: have any abortions been carried out in ireland for the reason i said in my inital comment, ?
@Elvis Polkasalad: not always. I have a condition that, if I get pregnant, will leave me permanently disabled. I have discussed and researched it with my GP and we have discovered that, because it wouldn’t push me to the brink of death (but would leave me wholly dependant on other people, 24\7, for the rest of my life), I would not be eligible. I also wouldn’t be able to keep the baby because I wouldn’t be able to care for it.
We are trying hard to get me sterilised, but I have been turned down repeatedly in the past 2 years, on the assumption that Im too young (at 30) to make such a permanent decision, and should look into having children instead (yup..actually got told this).
We are now being forced to turn to the UK to see if I can get sterilised there.
@Mirabelle Stonegate: You would think that some of the No crowd would advocate for someone like you getting sterilised since it would prevent the risk of you getting pregnant and having to decide whether to have an abortion. Yet there you go, you and your issues are are still being outsourced to the UK. Further proof that sometimes the opinion of women with regards what they do with their own body is still completely disregarded in this country. I wish you luck and I hope you get something sorted out for yourself
@Mirabelle Stonegate: who told you you could not be sterilized. Rather than repealing the 8th which saves so many lives, we should repeal the law that applies to sterilization. With all due respect your oft repeated story sounds a little contrived.
@Jeremy DeChad: the 13th/14th amendments and having easier access to the abortion pills saves real lives every year..
@Jeremy DeChad: With respect, I can imagine you have never been a woman trying to discuss contraceptive options with a doctor. You may be surprised how hard it is to have your opinion heard about what you want to do with your own body. I don’t know Mirabelle but I can guess she has heard multiple excuses about why she would regret not having a child despite the fact that it could leave her incapable of caring for said child.
@It’s A Bay-bee!: in what respect do they save lives. If we did not have recourse to the UK (btw I am not suggesting that we not be permitted to travel or have information) but are you suggesting that we would have mass suicide on our hands or would the vast majority of people have their child, be happy and get on with living without regret.
@InvaderSkoodge: if your doctor is unsatisfactory get a new doctor.
@InvaderSkoodge: your telling me a medical professional would advise a woman to get pregnant even though it would leave her permanently disabled. I would contact prime time if that’s the case. The whole country should hear about this & the doctor involved should be named & shamed.
@Jeremy DeChad:it gives them access to a procedure that they so badly require…Did you not know that clandestine abortions ‘WAS’ the cause of many deaths in Portugal before it was decrimanalised? Yup!
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13625180903053740?src=recsys&journalCode=iejc20
#safelegalabortionsavessomanyliveseachyear
@Seamus Mac: I’m not telling you anything. If you read the comments correctly you would see it was someone else made those remarks and I was agreeing with her.
@InvaderSkoodge: so if you agree with her you believe it to be true. I’m saying that if it is true it’s a scandal & should be reported to the appropriate authorities immediately.
@Jeremy DeChad: consultants who are qualified and legally able to perform the procedure have refused me, some without even meeting me. Legally, there is no barrier to getting sterilised. My gender is the barrier. I have been told I WILL change my mind and want kids… I have actually known from a young age that I never wanted to experience pregnancy, and that if I decide to have kids, adoption would be how I had them. Over the past 10 years I have developed an issue that was essentially my body agreeing with me.
@Seamus Mac: sadly, the authorities are not on the side of women, medically. I know men and women who have conditions that leave them with chronic pain and mental issues. The women have been refused access to meds that would improve their quality of life, as it would affect their fertility, even though some have decided a life with less pain is preferable to having children. Then men have been given the same meds with minimal issue.
I have been lucky that my GP supports my decision for sterilisation. I’ve actually advised my female friends to consider attending him, because of this, the main problem being distance.
@Elvis Polkasalad: the answer to my ? is yes she can ,even with the 8th as it is ,
@Elvis Polkasalad: A woman can not get an abortion due to her health. The only way a woman can presently have a legal abortion in Ireland is if she is literally going to die without one; this includes the risk of suicide.
@Elise: so if a woman says she is suicidel she can get an abortion in Ireland, yes?
@Elvis Polkasalad: Correct, as I said above. A woman claiming she is suicidal must be examined by three specialists and all must be in agreement for her to obtain a legal abortion.
However, you were incorrect in your earlier comment with regards to the health of the pregnant woman. It is currently illegal for an abortion based on health grounds. A woman must be about to die to obtain one legally in Ireland currently.
A woman’s health should matter!
@Elise: i was not inncorect a woman can get an abortion if she has an illness that can be affected by pregnancy, and if she says she is suicidal or her life is in danger and thats with the 8th in place. 96% of all abortions in england are carried on mental healt grounds ,ie if the woman says she is suicidal , which any woman here in ireland can allso say ,without repealing the 8th .
@Elvis Polkasalad: What illness allows a woman to get an abortion, specifically?
@Michael Lang: its only to england its not australia..
@Mirabelle Stonegate: that is scandalous. You have my sympathy. Have you thought about going to the press with this?
Vote YES if your a citizen of Ireland who hasn’t got a backward mentality.. Something that always plagues this country, Particularity with regards to politics and laws.
@Acedeuce: killing children is not a forward looking policy.
@Acedeuce: there is nothing more backward than killing babies in the womb.
@Dee O’Connoll – baybee -https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/images/e/e4/Stage11_sem21.jpg
@Dee O’Connoll: and theres nothing more backward than sweeping stuff under the carpet and pretending we dont need to deal with it!! Take your head out of the sand for once, its 2018!!!
@John Smith: children are not aborted, check it out
@Dee O’Connoll: Killing them and putting them in a septic tank is fine tho. Your Catholic church has never respected anyone except it’s own existence of male power and fear-mongering. yes or no people wont rest until your fiction is removed from society.
@John Smith: I’m voting yes. And it’s because of people who call abortion ‘murder’ that I am voting yes. You have no idea the situations that women can find themselves in and the horror of the decisions that many women have to make. I worked with a woman who was simultaneously raped by four men. She travelled to the UK. She was not a murderer.
So you can sit back in your comfy chair and continue to judge all you want. I’m kind of hoping you call yourself a Christian. In that case, maybe you too will be judged.
@thesaltyurchin: but it’s OK to abort them in the Womb. Your so full of crap
@John Smith: they are not children but undeveloped fetuses. the pro life side just lie all the time. utter gibberish that you lot come out with is beyond belief. backward looking catholic views. so glad people with your views are slowly getting less and less in this country. with every generation of brainwashed Catholics that die off in this country the grip of the catholic church gets eroded more and more. Next big move will be getting religion out of the schools.
@Dee O’Connoll: well they all better get the pill or stop boozing..
Almost 80% were using contraception
@Dave O Keeffe: and yet there are people who think that all women getting abortions are irresponsible..
if women were so irresponsible, would 80% really be using contraception? hardly!
Abortions for some…Rosary beads for others.
This is a disgrace but the proper solution isn’t to introduce abortion here. Modern Irish are making lots of reckless decisions apart from abortion (such as drugs, suicide, alcoholism, crime, robbery, self-harm, rape). It doesn’t mean that we should make such things more “accessible” and “legal” for them. It simply means we need to clean up our society so that these things (including abortion) are no longer sought after .
@Ireland Needs God: Irish women have had enough of your type of God !
@Ireland Needs God: Abortion isn’t a symptom of modern Ireland. Or modern anything. Abortion has been around for thousands of years.
@Lesley Harpur O Connell:
Listen, Ms. Harpie O’Connell, you have no idea as to the ‘God’ that you have attributed to the poster, but don’t spare the camels: go for the ad hominen anyway.
@Thomas Francis: apparently God conferred free will on us and allowed us freedom of choice. If God exists, I’m sure that she supports the freedom of choice for women to avail of abortion services.
@Ireland Needs God: how do you propose to clean up rape and FFA cases, they have and will always happen.
Even back in God fearing wet dream catholic Ireland in 1950s there was rape and worse… The difference was people covered it up and blamed women more!
@Ireland Needs God: strange, the Vatican used to be ok with abortions happening previously upto a point, some saints even have stores about them carrying them out.
@Michael Lang:
‘ apparently God conferred free will on us…’
Thanks Michael for the theological lesson, but overriding free-will are the 10 commandments: No. 6 (or 5 for our Catholic brothers) is:
Thou shall nor Murder.
@Thomas Francis: but we are entirely free to break the commandments because we have free will. Coercion is not involved. We are nit forced to comply with the commandments.
Thou Shalt Not Kill referscto human beings, not to foetuses.
This in the word of the Lord.
Amen
@Ireland Needs God: Sounds like you need to start with yourself. What had you smoked before you came to this fascinating conclusion?
@Michael Lang:
Well, kill away to your heart’s content; I’m sure there’s a vocation out there as would suit such a mindset, but I don’t want to see it enshrined into our Constitution.
@Ireland Needs God: Rape is not now, nor has ever been, a “reckless decision”. Your absolute dismissal and derision of this heinous criminal behaviour, perpetrated in the main against females, belies your desire for a cleaner society. As does your ignorance regarding addiction and self-harm.
@Barry Somers: rape and FFA make up less than 4% of abortions, they should be legislated for after 8th is amended and retained to protect the remaining 96%. Exploiting FFA and rape victims to push abortion on demand is not appropriate.
@Thomas Francis: eh the ten commandments don’t override free will, thou shalt not covey thy neighbours womb
@Barry Somers: Fewer than 1% of abortions take place because of rape. And less than 2% occur because of a foetal abnormality so “Fatal Foetal Abnormalaties” must account for an even tinier percentage! Do you really think 190k Irish women travelled because they were raped? In fact as much as 85% of women who have got pregnant because of rape have and keep their babies!
@Thomas Francis: on the subject of commandments, why isn’t one of them Thou Shalt not be a Peadophile? I think the whole foundation of your moral high ground is flawed.
@Missyb211: rapes are seriously under reported ..have you got the stats for women that were raped/abused by their partners ?
this is what Fiona Neary had to say about it :” For others, the termination and the process of organising it, in secret and with all the added difficulty of going abroad, prolongs the trauma of the rape, a further humiliation, a further violence, a further taking over of the body, a further experience of having no control. Dealing with strangers on the phone, her body being handled again, her body invaded again, her body wounded again.”
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/when-rape-results-in-pregnancy-219386.html
@Michael Lang: say an act of contrition Tony. Of what species is this foetus if not human?
@It’s A Bay-bee!: while we would all sympathize with a rape victim. It seems to me that the above concerns are more associated with the writers whole unsatisfactory existence. She needs to take a good look at her life. Also there is no point in bemoaning the human and in her case the female condition. That is just biology. The upside is that women live so much longer than men, again due to the exact same biology.
@Clare Butler: a stupid comment Clare
@Michael Lang: Michael Lang the famous theologian
@Graham Wilson: Ireland needs God like a hole in the head
@Seamus Mac: it is not an issue of theology. It is catechetical. Do you not know your religion at all.
@It’s A Bay-bee!: True, rapes are under reported. And with 98% of all elective terminations in GB sought because of a felt ” threat to the physical or mental health” some of those may well be because of rape but it still doesn’t make for 190k Irish women . In your link it says 19% of females who got pregnant, as a result of rape, had an abortion. That’s what I said. I’d say going for an abortion after rape IS taking control!
I know it more than you anyway Michael, you should have a read of the gospels for yourself.
@Ireland Needs God: leave the church look after the babies they can sell em to America r just kill them and dump them in pits
@Michael Lang: “Thou Shalt Not Kill referscto human beings, not to foetuses.
This in the word of the Lord.
Amen”. This is a big fat lie.
“If God exists, I’m sure that she supports the freedom of choice for women to avail of abortion services.” Oh, but you can choose. And your choice will be respected by God. According to God, you can choose to do good, or you can choose to do bad, and there are different outcomes for both choices. But this is not enough, is it? You (obviously not you personally, as, going by your name, you are not a woman, so don’t take it personally) want excuses, like relying on technicalities, definitions of fetus and baby to justify your choices so that you can feel you didn’t choose to do bad. You want your bad choices not only to be respected, but also to be supported and if they are not, you simply disagree or bring up the “right to choose” argument as if it was to somehow exclude you from judgement. Yes, God respects our right to choose, or free will as you put it. But He also says that we can choose between what He decides is good or bad, and not what you or every each of us wants to call good or bad. It doesn’t matter what you believe is good or bad, what matters is what the Creator says is good or bad. His moral standards are above yours or mine. It takes humility to accept this, which is sadly something that is increasingly missing in the world.
Anyway, we will all have to live and die with the consequences of our choices. But our conscience can be trained and influenced by different things, foremostly by our own heart. It we want to believe something (for whatever personal reasons) we will look for any evidence/excuse to support this belief. Hense, in the case of abortion, which is really a moral issue, we will cling on to scientific definitions and terms. Even though science, in the words of Albert Einstein, can tell us what is, and not what should be.
@Carol Oates: you want to look at vidoes about it in NIGERIA…
But how many of the people who travel from Ireland to England for abortions are actually non-nationals living in Ireland (i.e. non-Irish people living in Ireland)?
If the Eighth Amendment is repealed and abortion for any reason during the first 3 months of pregnancy, and for a disability after that, is legalised, a major tranche of the women seeking abortions in Ireland (paid for by the Irish taxpayer) will be non-nationals.
@J. Reid: we have a very modest percentage of non-nationals living in Ireland. It is a red herring in abortion terms.
@J. Reid: What’s your point? You only want to control Irish women is it?
@J. Reid: One would think if you have such a strong opinion on foreign nationals you would support abortion for them on the grounds that it would result in less of them in the country.
Seriously though, that is such a non reason to vote No.
@Michael Lang: 12% mostly young people is anything but a red herring.
@J. Reid: the proposed legislation does not allow for abortion on the grounds of disability. Please get your facts right.
@Jeremy DeChad: where do you get the 12% from?
@J. Reid: lets be real, the only women forced into becoming parents are poor women and women who don’t have visa access. You seem to have a problem with the State paying for the abortion but no problem paying for children’s allowance for 18 years, as well as housing, social welfare, etc. You can’t just make this decision for a woman and then walk off.
@Deborah Behan: the effect of the 8th Amendment bites most severely on those who are poor , too ill to travel or under a legal disability.
The cost of ongoing support for real children post birth is vastly greater than the cost of an abortion but the pro-lie focus is on financial cost.
@J. Reid: I did not know that foreigners were so many
@Jeremy DeChad: incorrect. It was 12.2% in 2011, it’s 11.6% as of the 2016 census. Trending downwards. Our largest foreign group are the Polish, they make up 20% of that 11.6% and they are not to keen on abortion with 28% either for or ambivalent towards abortion on request and 65% believing abortion in any case is inappropriate.
Give women the option at least, it’s not a lot to ask
@Sandra Boyce: It actually is an awful lot to ask if you believe that providing that option will endanger the lives of many more unborn than is necessary while at the same time not actually fully solving the problem for women. -Particularly for women coerced into finding a quick solution – either by actual one on one coercion or coercion by society as a whole. Are there any numbers available of how many women regretted the UK trip and suffered depression afterwards?
If even 1-3% did, I suspect that the numbers of women and babies badly affected in this way exceed the “in her shoes” scenarios- but I don’t know for sure because these numbers don’t seem to make it into the media.
@Nydon: Maybe you should reconsider directing your attention to those capable of impregnating people and have lengthy discussioms about how they need to take full and complete responsibility for the possible consequences of their actions. There are new contraception choices becoming available for such people. Wouldn’t you agree that it is a much better use of resources and time to aim to prevent crisis pregnancies?
@Graham Wilson: no but the next generation will see it as the late contraceptive safety net that it has become in the UK. 190,000 abortions a year in Eng and Wales alone. We should see about 12,000 abortions here pa based on those numbers and after the culture is established.
@Sean @114: abortion is not contraception.
Contraceptive failure does lead to abortion.
@Felicity Hensen: what will happen after Brexit? Will Irish women have to travel further to obtain an abortion if the referendum fails, causing more stress and misery. VOTE YES for a compassionate society and stop exporting Irish problems.
@Felicity Hensen: That is a good point!
@Graham Wilson: It’s compulsory for the baby being aborted. Your argument is the most stupid one coming from the pro aborts.
@Anita OGalligan: Quite possibly yes. Liverpool Hospital, where most people needing their services after an FFA diagnosis, is already refusing appointments.
@Sean @114:are you saying that 8,000 Irish women aren’t ending their pregnancies each year due to there being no abortion in this country ? bwahahaha
The figures highlight the level of demand on the part of Irish pregnant women for abortion.
@Michael Lang:
Abortion ‘demand on the part of …PREGNANT women’ Well, it would hardly be . . . oh why bother.
Michael, you’re tired. Get some shut-eye; you’ve a long day tomorrow and you’re only the interns to compete with.
@Thomas Francis: spelling it out for those not too keen of intellect.
@Michael Lang: the figures show how many healty children are being Aborted
@Elvis Polkasalad: Yes, despite the 8th amendment. Probably the biggest Irish failure after the bank guarantee.
@Michael Lang: if abortion was normalised is this country as it is in the UK, those figures would be far higher, using the UK as a guideline we would be killing 39 children every day in THIS COUNTRY, it would be insane to remove the protection of the 8th.
@John Smith: https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/images/e/e4/Stage11_sem21.jpg
baybee
@John Smith: very true, approx 40 babies a day, over 12,000 lost every year. That’s a shocking thought but the stats from the UK would indicate numbers such as those. Ah well, the angry atheists, SF and the lefties will be happy. Bodily autonomy for everyone.
@John Smith: better to keep women under control, men telling them whats good for them, are we still in the 1950s ?
@Gus Sheridan: no best to save lives I would say.
@Sean @114: the lives, health and welfare of pregnant women should come first and be the absolute priority.
@Sean @114: but you’re happy to see a woman jump off Liberty hall once she doesn’t harm anybody else…you trying to “save lives” is hilarious to say the least..
@John Smith:
Absolute rubbish and a farcical logical fallacy.
You suggest that Ireland is statistically comparable with the UK.
We’re not. And that’s a fact.
For simple examples, just look at divorce rates, national debt rates, unemployment rates, and so forth.
Again, we are not statistically comparable with the UK.
There is no “normalisation” leading towards UK numbers in anything, other than in the odd random event.
Talking nonsense is easy, how about talking sense for a change, you might want to try it?
In 2016 there were 3265 abortions carried out on Irish residents in the uk and there was 63897 births . That’s an abortion rate of 1 in 20 . The uk rate is 1 in 5 . Put another way if we had the uk rate we would have had 13060 abortions for that year. This should be celebrated! We should be proud that we live in a country that still values life. Look how many lives the eight amendment saved in 2016 alone! How many women hold their babies and regret having them? How many had abortions and regretted it? Please people listen to your hearts before voting to give up the rights of the most vulnerable in society.
@Joseph Flannery – are you saying that there was over 8,000 Irish women that were forced to give birth against their will every year ? Wow!
@Joseph Flannery: you obviously know absolutely nothing about causation.
@Michael Lang: what cause could possibly exist to justify a genocidal abortion rate of 1 in 5? And this is progress? Humanity is sinking to a new low.
@Sean @114: circumstances, circumstances which each pregnant woman knows best. Constitutional dogma and draconian laws will not mimimise abortion. There are ways of doing that but it would require a fairer and more just society but there is no appetite for that. Prohibitory Laws are just a futile and empty gesture as a substitute for real and substantial measures.
@Joseph Flannery: the 1 in 5 figure is false, as we all know. The refusal of the vehement ‘No’ side to acknowledge this is baffling..
@Sean @114:” a genocidal abortion rate of 1 in 5″ – amazing how some guys will throw out absolute nonsense terms when it comes to a woman having her pregnancy terminated…..a non viable foetus is not a citizen of this country…
@EvieXVI: the 1 in 5 figure is not false. The stats are crystal clear.
@TradingDuck: they are? Do you believe everything the no campaign tell you?
@Joseph Flannery: FACT:The 8th Amendment does not stop abortions. In 1992 the 13th Amendment of the Constitution specified “new paragraph in Article 40.3.3º: This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.“ that the prohibition of abortion would not limit freedom of travel in and out of the state. This is basically saying have abortions but not in my back yard!!
The No vote can bury their heads all day long, they can throw self righteous, judgemental slogans out as much as possible but Irish babies are being aborted every day. Since writing my original comment this morning 10 abortions happened. The 8th must be repealed to put a compassionate safe health care option in place for the Irish women of Ireland. I’m voting Yes!!
@Joseph Flannery: Your logic on numbers is all over the shop! But that’s a different matter
@EvieXVI: the 1 in 5 figure in the UK is based on the same statistics as the article… you can look up these statistics or calculate them yourself from the official abortion figures from England and Wales (by the way these are the same statistics that form the basis of the article above)
If you wish you can argue about what is a pregnancy and what is a baby but once you have done that you can then go and calculate a similar statistic to the 1 in 5 statistic that suits you definitions. For instance you could calculate the ratio of abortions to babies born… both these numbers are easy to find from the same report that is cited by the journal … e.g. if you do this you will get approx 1:4 i.e. one abortion for every 4 babies born in England and Wales… no matter what way you try to square that that is a terrible statistic and it would be really terrible if we have such a society in the future.
@Rob Lyn: the one in five “statistic” completely ignores miscarriage, an odd move from Every Foetus Matters
Religious fanaticism and democracy don’t mix well.
@Pius Flynn: religious dogma makes bad law and even worse medicine.
Blah Blah Blah …. Just get this referendum over and done with .
Perfect example of manipulation and spin by the journal. People are changing their minds because they see the truth behind all the lies and misinformation. One of the main tactics used by the Yes side is the cases of rape and incest yet they fail to include any figures here.
Of the 46 girls and women attending an RCC and pregnant as a result of rape in 2015:
• The majority of these survivors went on to give birth and parent (37%).
• 24% of these survivors had their pregnancy terminated.
• 11% of survivors who became pregnant had their child placed for adoption or fostering. • 28% of these survivors miscarried or had stillbirths10.
Only 11 of these women went on to have an abortion.
If you are going to give facts at least give all the facts please. Don’t just cherry pick the data to promote your own political agenda.
@Jonathan:come up with any solutions yet ?
@Jonathan: You’re actually right. The journal and some of its journalists have been pretty vocal on the subject on social. Them journalists and all media should be blanked banned filling people with stupid poll results and statistics and agenda driven spin and let people make their own minds up
@James O’Brien: Pro-Lie is dominating social media.
@Michael Lang: I think you hold that distinction Michael
@Jonathan: The yes side only like facts that suit their agenda.
@Nick Drake: the Yes side deals in facts and reality. The NO side deals in lies and dogma. The pro-life side would more accurately be called the pro-lie side.
@Jonathan: why would anyone trust unsourced statistics from anyone that claims 37% is a majority?
Not all abortions are for unwanted babies. Open your mind. Regardless of whether you agree with abortion or not, after May 25th Irish women and girls will continue to have abortions except they will be doing it in an illegal unsafe way. A Yes vote is a vote for compassion and respect to the Irish women who for whatever reason is private to them allows them safe health care in their own country.
A No vote is a vote for illegal abortion. I’m voting Yes!!
@Carol: a very good reason for voting Yes.
@Carol: a Yes vote is for abortion on demand, removing the only right that our unborn children have, the right to live like the rest of us. Vote No and force removal of the on demand clause.
@Sean @114: a baby should have the right to,live. A foetus should only be protected in the third trimester and then only of the life of the mother is not imperiled.
The only wayto achieve this and to avoid the minority of cases where the lives of pregnant women have been at risk and will be at risk in the future is to repeal the 8th Amendment.
@Michael Lang: So effectively you are saying that life can be discarded up to 29 weeks old inside the womb? And this is coming from a ‘compassionate’ perspective?
According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive.
Tyson JE, Parikh NA, Langer J, Green C, Higgins RD (April 2008). “Intensive care for extreme prematurity–moving beyond gestational age”. N. Engl. J. Med. 358 (16): 1672–81. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa073059. PMC 2597069 Freely accessible. PMID 18420500.
Luke B, Brown MB (December 2006). “The changing risk of infant mortality by gestation, plurality, and race: 1989-1991 versus 1999-2001″. Pediatrics. 118 (6): 2488–97. doi:10.1542/peds.2006-1824. PMC 3623686 Freely accessible. PMID 17142535.
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (September 2002).
“ACOG Practice Bulletin: Clinical Management Guidelines for Obstetrcian-Gynecologists: Number 38, September 2002.
Perinatal care at the threshold of viability”. Obstet Gynecol. 100 (3): 617–24. PMID 12220792.
@Nick Drake: I regard the end of the second trimester as 24 weeks. I din’t support abortion at 29 weeks unless there is threat to the life or health of the pregnant woman.
I value the life and health of pregnant women vastly and incomparably more than a foetus.
@Nick Drake: doesn’t matter.As long as the survival rates for a premature baby born at 24 weeks is below 50%,then the viability will remain at 24 weeks..Woman’s life always come first..
@Sean @114: FACT:The 8th Amendment does not stop abortions. In 1992 the 13th Amendment of the Constitution specified “new paragraph in Article 40.3.3º: This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.“ that the prohibition of abortion would not limit freedom of travel in and out of the state. This is basically saying have abortions but not in my back yard!!
The No vote can bury their heads all day long, they can throw self righteous, judgemental slogans out as much as possible but Irish babies are being aborted every day. Since writing my original comment this morning 10 abortions happened. The 8th must be repealed to put a compassionate safe health care option in place for the Irish women of Ireland. I’m voting Yes!!
Such daily Propaganda…. Journal is so biased. Zero stories/articles from the pro life side. Here’s a suggestion for tomorrow’s article.. why don’t you report on the thousands of Irish lives the 8th has saved? Why don’t you report on the real life stories where a mother suffered life long depression and even suicide post and abortion in UK.. why don’t you detail how biologically alive a 12week old baby is?
The tens of millions this government is spending on Spin should be spend on support services and after care for women, also they should have clarified the existing 2013 legislation that ALLOWS for abortion under certain serious health grounds. Why didn’t they just make this law clearer for GPS to follow…. VOTE Not to trust politicians and VOTE NO.
@Pconor: “Why don’t you report on the thousands of Irish lives the 8th has saved?” Because imaginary figures are impossible to scrutinise. “Why don’t you report on the real life stories where a mother suffered life long depression and even suicide post-abortion in the UK” Because correlation does not equal causation. “Why don’t you detail how biologically alive a 12-week old baby is?” Because it’s utterly irrelevant. Most things in the body are ‘biologically alive’. My appendix is ‘biologically alive’ – so what?
@Pconor: the 8th doesn’t save lives. It only forces women abroad to access late terminations. Even if they don’t decide on abortion there’s nothing worse than being born an unwanted child, some being put into the broken foster system where some are abused and neglected. The 8th is a ridiculous backwards law that is only causing extreme grief for women, families and medical professionals.
@Orla van der Noll:
‘extreme grief for women, families and medical professionals.’
Think of what the alternative (being dissolved in a saline solution) does for the near-born babies.
I don’t know what you’ve been smoking, but if you think that a baby in the womb does not feel the potassium chloride (as injected by the abortionist) coursing through its veins, then an education was wasted on you.
@Thomas Francis: up to 24 weeks and possibly as late as 28 weeks a foetus does not have sufficient neurological development to be able to sense painful stimuli.
@Thomas Francis: ‘dissolved in saline solution’ Do you enjoy making stuff up ??!!
@EvieXVI:
You may read of it here:
https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/19/how-does-saline-abortion-kill-baby/
@Michael Lang:
Michael, have to take the missus out now, but the evidence is here:
‘Study found that a fetus can feel and respond to stimuli as early as eight weeks.’
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900087/
@Thomas Francis: I know what it is – but this procedure is rarely, if ever used. It was common in the 1970s, but not since. And, even then, only for late term abortions.
@EvieXVI: that is “how” Gianna Jessen the “abortion survivor” “has” severe burns all over her body …\O/
Thomas – a foetus CANNOT feel pain at 8 weeks…you’re only out by about 16-20 weeks..
Saline abortions are going back in time,bit like the “pro life” movement itself..
@Thomas Francis: Pain cant be felt at 24 weeks according the the Royal Institute of obstetricians and gynecologists https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19089-24-week-fetuses-cannot-feel-pain/
@Pale Blue Dot: pesky facts…
@Pale Blue Dot:
There’s the following, or you can just use common sense.
‘Myers, 2004, p.241, para.2, “The first essential requirement for pain is the presence of sensory receptors, which first develop in the perioral area at approximately 7 weeks gestation and are diffusely located throughout the body by 14 weeks.95”
@Thomas Francis: ‘the first’. so by 14 weeks the system isn’t complete and pain can’t be felt. Thanks for clearing that up.
Hang on a second! I thought there was no abortion in Ireland???
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: That’s a bit of a Fr Dougal statement to be making at this late stage
@Nydon: 60:30 looks representative of the proportions of pro choice to pro life.
During the recent CervicalCheck scandal we learned thanks to brave Vicky Phelan that vital information was withheld from hundreds of women by Doctors and HSE for a year as they squabbled over who was going to take responsibility for the scandal.
We are also told by Doctors and Politicians that Women’s lives are been put at risk unless the Eight Amendment is removed.
There was no Amendment stopping them from informing the women whose scans were misread and it took them 1 YEAR to own up.
Self preservation won out.
No one knows what happens to a person once the front door is closed. I personally believe that I’ve no right to make a decision on what happens to another persons body just the same as it’s my body not anyone elses.
Not all abortions are for unwanted babies. Open your mind. Regardless of whether you agree with abortion or not, after May 25th Irish women and girls will continue to have abortions except they will be doing it in an illegal unsafe way. A Yes vote is a vote for compassion and respect to the Irish women who for whatever reason is private to them allows them safe health care in their own country.
A No vote is a vote for illegal abortion. I’m voting Yes!!
@Carol: the majority are
If 70% of women who went for abortion are in a relationship then I would like to see a statistic displaying numbers of men who support, don’t agree or are not aware of their partner’s decision of having an abortion….
@Laura Sova: it is the woman’s private business.
@Michael Lang: killing babies is everyone’s business.
@Sean @114: in relation to babies, yes.
In relation to a foetus, I can’t agree with you. The foetus is the concern of the pregnant woman and is not my business or yours. I don’t want you or your ilk to take out the legal,manacles and to subject a pregnant woman to your coercive will. Leave the pregnant woman alone and don’t use the Cinstutution or laws to bully her. Let her decide for herself.
@Michael Lang: Not really. I am for a woman to have a choice (I cannot vote here), but on the other side, I personally do not agree with abortion when there is no risk to a woman’s health and sex was consensual. There are two people involved, so I presume men have a right to have their opinion on it. According to abortion statistic, half of the women in relationships are already mothers so I presume there is a long-term partner involved. Maybe I go too far with it but there is a choice of vasectomy for men, which is much less complicated than for a woman being sterilized…
@Sean @114: If somebody decides to lie, cheat, steal or murder it is not my business. Men and women who created a new life together are responsible for it. It is their business to decide. I think every woman who has had consensual sex with a man and know him, should let him know about her decision to either keep or abort it. But it is not my business how she will decide.
@Laura Sova: It is your business because you are being asked to decide in this referendum. If you were to witness a robbery or murder you would do something rather than nothing.
You are being asked to vote on the right to life of the unborn, not about what’s right for other women, it is your own personal and private decision that you need to make.
@Jonathan: you can vote ‘no’,but that is where your business will end in that matter..
@Jonathan: I cannot vote here because I am not an irish citizen. If I witnessed a violent robbery maybe I would run away to save my life first, depending on a situation. Maybe I would try to prevent murder and save another life for the cost of my life and I would be a hero. But I am sure women will have an abortion anyway and no health professional should be obliged to provide this procedure if not agree with it. However, women should be legally obliged to inform a potential father (if sex was consensual and they know the person) about their decision to keep a new life or destroy it. Both sides need to be involved in it.
@Laura Sova: Appologies I didn’t realise you were not irish. I am voting No anyway because I believe the unborn child has a right to life.
I agree with you that it would good for both parties to be involved in the decision if possible. It would be impossible to make it a legal obligation because of the complexities.
@Jonathan: shouldn’t be too tough, we’ve already stripped women of bodily autonomy and handed it to the state, can’t be too much more difficult to hand it over to a guy that said he had a condom on
I’m all for the right to life of the unborn, but the equal right to life as the mother can also lead to the equal death as the mother as the law stands right now. How is that saving lives?
The No campaigns approach, does not make me want to vote No, the worst one I saw was a picture of an empty classroom, with a slogan along the lines of this being normal in about 5 years time. Do these people seriously think that if abortion is brought into this country, that every woman who becomes pregnant will get one, because it sure looks like their thinking.
Abortion, as unacceptable as it is to many people, is a choice not for you, nor is it any of our business should someone decide to have one.
@Andrew Giles:
Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.
It allows for abortion when the mothers life is at risk.
At the moment abortion is perfectly legal in Ireland under certain strict circumstances.
There are emotional arguments on both sides that are very tragic and sad. These emotional arguments should not distract us from what the referendum is about, removing the right to life of the unborn. Life or death for the unborn.
@Andrew Giles: “Abortion, as unacceptable as it is to many people, is a choice not for you, nor is it any of our business should someone decide to have one.”
The Americans still struggle with Roe vs Wade whereas the UK don’t with their 1967 decision but after 45 years since the Supreme Court dumped a decision on the American people even the sympathetic Washington Post allows for balanced perspectives which came about after the same gender marriage was passed over there -
“All the great civil rights movements have been movements of inclusion. The first modern civil rights campaign — militating for the end of the British slave trade — set the pattern with its slogan: “Am I not a man and a brother?” Susan B. Anthony asked: “Are women persons?” In the most rapidly successful civil rights movement of our time, gays and lesbians came out to show their communities that LGBT people were their friends and family members. All these efforts expanded the circle of social welcome and protection. The abortion rights movement, in contrast, is a movement of autonomy. Its primary appeal is to individual choice, not social inclusion. And the choice it elevates seems (to some people) in tension with the principle of inclusion”
The way our politicians structured the up coming vote by distancing the Oireachtas report from the vote itself is worse than the Supreme Court decision as it was out of the hands of the American people to discuss the topic as they are only beginning to do now whereas our electorate is expected to deal with two separate questions as one question. Vote No and send the politicians to go back and do this right rather than being a front for advocacy groups.
@Gkell1: TL;DR
@Gkell1: have a look at the decrease in crime starting exactly 18 years after Roe vs Wade
Heartbeat law passed in Iowa, U.S. they realise that ending a babies heartbeat is killing them. Notice that the major corporation ‘planned parenthood ‘ is fighting hard against this…. loss of revenue for them.
@Pconor: at 12 weeks there is no heart beat, just a rudimentary pulsing tube without the 4 chambers.
Heartbeat is a very primitive notion about life.
An extremely rudimentary and undeveloped form of life begins at conception. It is still inchoate and undeveloped at 12 weeks. It has potential but not actuality.
@Michael Lang: You are so lost in all of this. Even the majority of pro-abortionists would disagree with your statement. You really do need to get a checkup yourself to see if you have a heart.
@Dan Boyle: I’m addressing real physiology. I have actually seen the heart of a 12 week old foetus. It has no chambers. It’s just a pulsing tube, nit a functional heart. The foetus is incapable of being sustained by this redumentary tube. It is the pregnant woman’s heart and womb which unable the foetus to be sustained. You can’t argue against the reality of physiology.
@Pconor: it will be deemed unconstitutional AGAIN….lols
A sperm is just as alive as a zygote or fetus. That’s literally all that needs to be said.
@Dean Sanders: A sperm cell doesn’t have a unique diploid set of chromosomes. Fail.
@Graham Wilson: my kids can’t get a mortgage either. Can I abort them?
@Seamus Mac: do you want to kill real children? That would be really bad.
@Graham Wilson: The way the banks are going back to boomtime, probably has a good chance of getting a mortgage.
@Michael Lang: that comment is beneath you Michael
Women/couples should have the right to choose when they are pregnant. There are points in our life were we’re not ready for children. I’m sure we’ve all had those scares when we were in college. The fact that 80% were having an abortion because their contraception failed highlights the need for abortion, as a backup to contraception.
@James O’Nolan: I commend you on your courage to admit that you would like to have abortion in place as a safety net in case the condom breaks or the pill is ineffective. Nice set of values you got there.
@James O’Nolan: The fact that 80% said that contraception failure was the cause of the pregnancy should sent alarm bells ringing for sure. I think the government should investigate these companies selling contraception as they are clearly misleading the public on how effective they are.
@Jonathan: I think you’re totally confused by that statistic. It’s not 80% of contraception doesn’t work. It’s 80% of those having an abortion had used contraception. Less than 1% of contraception doesn’t work.
@Nick Drake: you don’t believe in family planning? What do you when contraception doesn’t work?
@James O’Nolan: If contraception fails, then you accept the consequences.
@Thought Criminal: Really?! Why? What’s the real difference between preventing a pregnancy and ending a pregnancy? Contraception prevents millions of times more lives than abortion.
Human life does not begin at conception. If it did, every IVF clinic regularly commits mass murder and miscarriages could be seen as acts of manslaughter, which is an obscene stance. Nobody has a funeral for an early miscarriage. We need to have consistency. Life becomes human life when there’s brain activity at 24 weeks. After that, I agree it’s wrong to have abortions.
@James O’Nolan: I would expect nothing less than to take responsibility for my actions.
@Nick Drake: I know nothing about you, but my point is that may not have been so convenient at every point in your life. People should have a right to choose when, and if, they want children.
@James O’Nolan: I was being sarcastic. I know how effective contraceptives are. I just find it statistically impossible that 80% of the women that went for an abortion due to the contraception failing. Doesn’t add up so I think you can guess yourself what happened.
@Nick Drake: having an abortion is another way to take responsibility.
“i’m not financially, mentally, emotionally or physically fit enough to be a parent at this time. continuing this pregnancy will result in homelessness and disability. however, if i end this pregnancy, i can work hard on getting myself into the right place, and eventually foster or adopt other children who need a loving home”.
this is a variation of a thought i have had many times (difference being i’ve never actually been pregnant, but this is what my thoughts would be right now, if i was pregnant). surely taking responsibility for personal health and well-being, before bringing dependents into your life is actually taking responsibility? surely recognising the dangers of pregnancy to your health, preventing that, and using alternative methods to become a parent is responsible..
or would you think that a woman should give up absolutely everything for an unwanted pregnancy? even if it damages her health?
@Thought Criminal: ” If contraception fails, then you accept the consequences.” – and that is where abortion will be used to end that unwanted pregnancy…your thoughts are indeed criminal..
@James O’Nolan: This I can agree with. Had an orgy once with 10 women, all the condoms busted and low and behold 7 of the lovely girls got pregnant. was able to block book them into uk clinic. Pretty good deals to be got over there. Packed them all into the back of the van and all sorted. Cost a bit but a least that was the easy thing to do as i am a coward and would not be willing to stand by my convictions when riding.
@Mirabelle Stonegate: How would you foster or adopt, there will be not enough babies left for you. Again you are some craic.
@Dan Boyle: I wouldn’t want a baby, actually. I’d be willing to take on the older kids that get left behind and forgotten, the ones that no one wants.
so many people that take in children want babies, that when an older kid ends up in the system, it’s much harder for them to be placed.
the 8th doesn’t save lives. It only forces women abroad to access late terminations. Or to buy pills online and risk complications alone without medical supervision. Even if they don’t decide on abortion there’s nothing worse than being born an unwanted child, some being put into the broken foster system where some are abused and neglected. The 8th is a ridiculous backwards law that is only causing extreme grief for women, families and medical professionals. Ditch the 8th, vote yes to allow change and give women and families a choice. Don’t like abortions? Don’t get one. Btw, they are not babies or children. That is anatomically incorrect. Learn the facts. Developing tissues only a few weeks old are not more important than the lives of women making the difficult choice. It’s a bit creepy that on the 25th may the whole country will get together to vote on what women are allowed to do with their uteruses. Vote for choice not restriction
@Orla van der Noll: excellent, factual and accurate comment, Orla.
We need more women to express their views online. We need women to speak to the reality.
Thank you.
The UK has been a wonderful refuge for Irish women needing an abortion but eventually in a post Brexit scenarios, Ireland needs to learn to stand in its own two feet and serve the interests of Irish pregnant women who need an abortion.
Was this not posted before? Did they realise they had not pushed the pro abortion agenda enough today.
Another pro abortion post by the journal
@Charles Quinn: unless it is in the Pro-Lie side, it is pro-abortion.
The article sets out the facts and statistics. It tells its own story.
@Charles Quinn: did u read it it’s statistics Didn’t see any pro abortion views but pro birth never leave facts stand in there way
Until you have to face that decision you can’t understand it. “Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.”
What I think we need is a new law that should make it mandatory for all woman to have children! You have no choice! Now wouldn’t that be great.
@Philip O’Dowd: Seriously some on the far right would agree with you, as long as it was only white women of course.
@Philip O’Dowd: Even some of the mugs on the Journal? The man who does the deed to get some of these pregnant would need alot of therapy afterwards. Think compassion for the men who would have to force a boner and maintain it for a few minutes with these so called women. I think that would be impossible even with the brown bag solution. Put one over his own head in case the one over her head falls off.
@Philip O’Dowd: if you’re saying this as a joke, please don’t. it isn’t funny.
as someone seeking sterilisation, i’ve had consultants turn around and say, “nope, you need to get pregnant before you can make such a life-changing decision”.. which is basically saying that i MUST have children, because i’m female.
i’m seeking sterilisation for 2 reasons: i have NEVER wanted to experience pregnancy, even as a young child.. i never wanted those baby dolls every other girl i knew had.
pregnancy would also have severely damaging effects to my health by causing disability..
yet somehow, despte both of these, medical professionals have told me i need to have children..
@Mirabelle Stonegate: I’d say you are a great laugh to be with!!!
@Dan Boyle: actually, i am!
i happen to keep away from the serious conversations most of the time, unless they come up naturally.
well.. other than my current medical issue. that is something i bring up quite often, though mostly to laugh at. i’ve not been able to taste anything at all for nearly 13 weeks, and no one has been able to figure out why yet! the plus side is that i’m eating very little, so i’m losing weight at an unhealthy rate XD
Not a particularly insightful set of statistics, The data is obviously obviously portrayed and skewed to sway opinion. I think at this stage everyone knows the situation of abortion in Ireland and travel to the UK or ordering pills online is what is happening. Another way of presenting data would be to show that Sweden allows abortion on demand with no reason up to 18 weeks, or the Poland’s laws are almost as strict as Ireland’s laws. I understand that media outlets need to keep the $$$$$ rolling in and stories related to abortion are nice earners for them, I also understand that media publications are usually swayed one way or another, but it might be a good idea to show data that is not so obviously swayed towards abortion.
@Nick Drake: you fail to show how the statistics are swayed and you fail to posit an alternative set of Pro-Lie statistics.
@Michael Lang: I failed at nothing, the statistics are already presented here only showing one perspective, nothing in the way of comparison and I have posted two other suggestions around which a data set could be put together. These are nothing to do with lies, not all people on the pro-life side are motivated by lies. I often speak of the arrogance of some pro-abortion people, your reply to my post was just another example of that, so I appreciate you validating some of my previous points.
@Nick Drake: the problem fir you is that you fail to explain how the statistics have been swayed. Please explain your contention. I am interested to hear how you have arrived at the conclusion that the statistics have been misrepresented.
@Michael Lang: Swaying is not the same as misrepresentation, but if you either fail to grasp the concept that a group can present information to sway opinion or are deliberately trying to discredit, I strongly suspect that the latter is my correct assumption.
@Nick Drake: still nothing of substance and so I conclude that you were just spoofing.
I suggest a compromise after the Referendum.
After the Referendum only devout, compliant and fully observant Roman Catholics, registered as such should be legally prohibited from an abortion.
All others should be entitled to have an abortion.
In that way Roman Catholicism is respected as a special case and the institutional Roman Catholic Church can be placated.
Register as a fully observant Roman Catholic and obey its diktats to the letter. Don’t register and be free to ignore Roman Catholic dogma.
@Michael Lang: not all people on the no side are religious.
@Skimothy: true, but the vast majority in a 78% Roman Catholic Country still under the diminishing yoke of the Roman Catholic Church will vote how they are told by the institutional Roman Catholic Church.
@Skimothy: let the religious be banned from having abortions. Let the non religious have the freedom to chose.
@Skimothy: nope looking at save 8th y Def etc would say it’s only about 99%
@Michael Lang: u still have the churches septic tanks and mass graves as an option
I see we are a united Ireland in treating our women with no compassion.
The figures just go to show that the 8th Amendment doesn’t prevent abortion. It just puts women seek8ng an abortion to extra cost, major challenge and 3 to 4 weeks extra delay in having an abortion if they are unable to siyrce abortion pills.
One of the major problems with the 8th Amendment is that it causes women to use abortion pills in the first trimester without medical supervision.
The figure used , 3265 Irish people travelled to get an abortion to Britain , the figure I have is 1163 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/679538/Abortion_statistics_2016_data_tables.ods.xlsx, which figure is correct ,
@Anthony Fagan: The figure on table 12d (Republic of Ireland by county) of the document you linked is correct, that figure is 3265.
@Ron North: thanks , all very confusing I had my figure from table 2,
It seems silly to ignore the above abortion stats and advocate “No” when even if ‘No”
is carried, it will have diddly squat difference. If Irish women can’t have abortions at home, they will simply continue what they are doing now and make the trip to the UK
or elsewhere in Europe.
Respect women. Respect their choices.
It is very pleasant fur men to debate the niceties of abortion and freedom of choice but let us not forget that it is not and will not be our induvudual predicament.
That said, we should think of the welfare of our wives, daughters, nieces, female friends and accept the reality that each pregnant best knows her individual circumstances best and is therefore in the best position to decide what is best fir her having regard to her own personal circumstances.
Respect women; respect their choices. It is their decision and our support.
Irish women account for 67.9% of total non-resident abortions in England and Wales in 2016. This does not include the number of abortions performed in Ireland by means of abortion pills.
@Michael Lang: what percentage of these figures were rape, incest and ffa?
@Jonathan: any percentage at all would be enough and far too much.
Any chance you could clarify the headline to specify ‘England and Wales’ ? It’s a bit confusing when you say ‘UK’ but then list NI and Scotland as though they are outside the UK
Great little country for abortions
@Stevie Doran: No not really, we export them & turn a blind eye!
@Colette Kearns: much better to kill the babies here. Travel is inconvenient. We should be able to rid ourselves of these parasites “using
@Sean @114: our organs down at the local convenience store. Bodily autonomy for everyone.
@Graham Wilson: much better to save those who need saving and to only kill those where there is no choice e.g. the host will die.
@Graham Wilson: the majority of the No bandwagon on here are men.
@Gus Sheridan: I just had a look over the names of the Pro-lies and you are correct. There is a hardcore group of 8 of them. All men. They are the more active and fulminating of the commenters. Obviously, they are the type of men who are not reticent about telling women what to do. They are the type of men who bekieve that they know best.
@Sean @114: there are no babies involved in abortion. You are confused. Abortion simply prevents a baby.
@Michael Lang: nobody is as active on the journal as you Michael.
@Seamus Mac: And for that I’m extremely grateful.
@Annie Citric: why’s that Annie?
@Michael Lang: I think you would qualify as a person who thinks they know best. In the medical, legal or theological field you are an expert. Your condescending attitude to people of faith or who just disagree with you is disappointing.
@Seamus Mac: actually I know nothing of the individual circumstances of the individual lives of individual women who know their personal circumstances best and are therefore in the best position to decide fir themselves.
I know very little about theology. I know very little about medicine. I know very little about the lives of individual women but I know that women are the best to chose what they should do according to their own circumstances. I defer to the choice made by women to have or not to have an abortion.
I also know that a foetus is nit a baby and a baby is nit a foetus.
I also know that the lives and health of a minority of women have been endangered by the 8th Amendment. I know that it is an affront to the dignity and autonomy of pregnant women to place legal manacles on them.
I believe that religion makes bad law and even worse medicine.
@Michael Lang: you seem very sure about all that. What is your reason for constantly belittling people who don’t agree with you?
Referendum should be very close. I’ve made my predictions now…
@Seán Geeney: it’s going to be extremely tight.
The demographic move from rural areas to the cities will likely give the Yes side the margin of advantage but on,y if the youth vote is mobilised.
New Ireland or old Ireland? The Referendum result will tell us.
I consider that the institutional Roman Catholic Church still packs a massive punch and it will drive a high turn out for the NOs
@Michael Lang: I’m certainly hoping that the institutional Roman Catholic Church and it’s followers, can influence the very sizable 18% undecided who are clearly having a crisis of conscience, to kill the baby or not to kill the baby. The church can play a pivotal role from here on in.
@Sean @114: the institutional Roman Catholic Church has never recoiled from using its bullying and dogmatic might. Of course, it has driven the NO side and it will redouble it’s efforts in the final stage.
@Michael Lang: Interesting point about the moves outwards. A little like in London far our suburbs, Labour are beginning to be more competitive in previous Tory strongholds as demographics change…
I was trying to do some comparison with the 2015 results by constituency but they have changed since then…
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/marriage-referendum/results
@Sean @114: the church could just take babies and dump them in septic tanks like they did in the past
@Sean @114: Do you honestly think yes voters are baby kiilers?
@Michael Lang: Your own personal form of dogmatism is as bad as the institutional kind you speak out against. You come across as a self proclaimed authority on everything, in particular morality and behaviours. You are but one of countless wolves dressed up in lamb’s clothing.
Orla ryan @ tge journal
How many women AND babies went to uk
How many babies came home?
How many biased shoddy articles can you write?
#VOTENO – to aborting healthy babies up to 3 months of pregnancy.
@Ismise Máire: Weeks: Size of a sesame seed…….
5 Weeks: Size of a sunflower seed…..
6 Weeks: Size of a raisin…….
7 Weeks: Size of a blueberry…….
8 Weeks: Size of a raspberry…….
9 Weeks: 9/10 inch, 1/10 ounce, size of a cherry…….
10 Weeks: 1 1/4 inches ,1/8 ounce, size of a strawberry……
11 Weeks: 1 1/2 inches long, 1/4 ounce, size of an apricot……
12 Weeks: 2 inches long, 1/2 ounce, size of a lime
More than 90% of abortions take place during this period. Does any of that sound like a description of a BABY
@Pale Blue Dot: We all started this way. Its still a baby. Not in your twisted mind however. You have your mind made up so you will never appreciate the actual joys of life that most people experience.Its an awful burden and i dont know how you go through life with this attitude but that is your problem as you may never know the happiness the stages of life bring to others. So you need to asked yourself, is your life really worth something?
FACT:The 8th Amendment does not stop abortions. In 1992 the 13th Amendment of the Constitution specified “new paragraph in Article 40.3.3º: This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.“ that the prohibition of abortion would not limit freedom of travel in and out of the state. This is basically saying have abortions but not in my back yard!!
The No vote can bury their heads all day long, they can throw self righteous, judgemental slogans out as much as possible but Irish babies are being aborted every day. The 8th must be repealed to put a compassionate safe health care option in place for the Irish women of Ireland. I’m voting Yes!!
Why are all my reasonable comments being deleted
@helen walsh: Just a guess, but if you’re suggesting a no vote then the mods will be deleting your posts. The Journal have made it very clear that they are for repealing the 8th and I’ve seen a lot of posts from people that are in favour of saving the 8th disappear. This is the level of journalistic integrity that The Journal has, ie, NONE
Always surprised by the strength of the opinions on both sides but nobody seems to understand that the repeal has for objective to 1-let medical teams take care of the pregnant women as much and as well as they need without to be afraid to go to gaol or kill the woman and 2-after the MPs’ decision to vote for or against the possibility of abortion on demand until the 12th week.. So the true battle for both sides should not be the repeal but the law which will follow!! And as for those who believe that the 8th protects lives I must say they are pretty naif or dishonest because with or without the 8th women will abort :the only difference will be either the woman will be well taken care of or not!!!
Can we not just have the vote already? There’s some truly awful behaviour from people on both sides of this and I know I’m not the only one that’s completely fed up by this point. The no camp attacking the yes camp for wanting to kill babies and then displaying some truly horrific images outside hospitals whilst the yes camp are attacking the no camp for being out of touch of women’s health issues and labeling no voters as religious bigots. (I think that fairly accurately sums up both sides).
Then we get to the posters, do the campaigns not realise that they’re just wasting money? Not 1 single poster that I’ve seen has made anywhere near a powerful enough argument for either option and I doubt that anyone would make up or change their mind based on a poster.
We all know it’s going to be a close call, and when the final vote comes in one side will instantly call for a recount, lets face it, the Irish government don’t actually care what the people say. The govt have made it clear they want the 8th repealed, so if it turns out to be a no vote they’ll do what they did back in 2008/2009, change a small amount of text and then force another vote until they get the result they want.
How many women have abortions and later regret them. Why don’t we hear about such cases. The media is so biased in favour of abortion. That makes me suspicious of their agenda and I intend voting No.
I kind of feel that the 8th amendment should only be voted on by women.
@Stipe Miocic: vote yes and then it will be in the hands of women vote no for the status quo and leave it in the hands of old men and religious nut jobs
@Stipe Miocic: I take it you have no children , because if you did ,you would not make such a stupid comment , if you give a woman all the rights to do what she wants to Both our child , if that was to happen what rigths do you think men will have when it comes to family break up ect, None
@Elvis Polkasalad: women deserve to have the ultimate decision on abortion. It is their bodies which are involved.
Should be very close. I’ve made my predictions now…
The problem is not that Ireland needs abortion, a bigger problem is that England needs to stop its extremely liberal abortion policy. Why do we have to follow their example blindly thinking that we need it also, what has it achieved for them? Eventually the UKs abortion policy will be a disaster for that nation, the amount of UK and Irish unborn children terminated will be worse than the great holocaust and eventually they will need to end it. You know that certain Imans in Europe and the UK have declared the fall of the native western population and the rise of their population a great miracle from Alla. Those guys have sharia law in mind for the UK and Europe, its already well underway in Belgium, Holland and other places. There won’t be much choice then. If we say NO now maybe we can be a light for our neighbours in the UK and help them see sense and stop their unrestricted abortion policy before its too late.
What a pathetic set of useless arguments coming from both sides – boy am I glad I won’t be voting.
@Austin Rock: others will make the choice. You are not and will never be a pregnant woman facing a terrible dilemma. You have the luxury of disinterest.
have your say