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WE ALL HAVE dreams as girls. We grow up with fairytales, dreaming of a happiness regardless of life’s circumstances. We play at being mummy, dressing up in mummy’s shoes, trying on lipsticks, serving tea from colorful plastic tea sets.
Girls move through the years with ideas of what they will be when they grow up. A teacher, a scientist, a designer. Girls chatter about who they’re going to marry and how many children they’re going to have. They are excited and dreaming of a happy future.
But life can throw your world of dreams upside down. And as girls become women they come face to face with life-altering decisions that they never dreamt of.
I never knew all the things that could go wrong with a pregnancy
I am new to this world. I have lost three babies in the space of two years. Two silent miscarriages and a termination for medical reasons (TFMR) for a fatal foetal abnormality (FFA) in between. My world of dreams is truly upside down, along with my husband’s. I ask on a daily basis, ‘Why?’ I never dreamt that life would put me in that situation. I never dreamt that I would be faced with the diagnosis of a FFA or the option of a termination. I never even knew all the things that could go wrong with a pregnancy until I met others in the same situation.
While I believe that a large percentage of the population support the decision my husband and I made, a small percentage of the population play the ‘woman feels guilt later’ card. This is a cruel tactic to use against women and couples who have had to make this awful decision – and there is no denying that this is an awful decision to have to make. It is the hardest decision that people will ever have to make and is not one that is made in haste. So while there may be those who feel guilt, for many, though they live with the fact that they had to make this decision, they know for the rest of their lives that it was the right one. We have no regrets about the choice we made for our daughter and for us.
My husband and I were catapulted into a world that we now accept as the ‘real world’. This is a world where life is not perfect, where you realise that not all of your dreams come true and you mentally fight on a daily basis to accept the world you live in. We never thought when we started on our baby journey, that terminating a pregnancy was something that we would do.
But we did. We did it for her and we did it for us. We did it to spare us all from further suffering and we have no regrets. We delivered our baby girl in the maternity section of a hospital with no intervention other than tablets to bring on the pregnancy.
It’s easy to judge others when you have never walked in their shoes
We are not criminals. We are not murderers. We are not satanic. However, these are the accusations we have had to shield ourselves from over the last couple of years.
It’s easy to judge others when you have never walked in their shoes. I never before considered termination as an option until we were faced with a FFA. Couples in these circumstances are heartbroken, they do not need the condemnation of those who have no experience of the circumstances nor those who chose to continue with the pregnancy under the same circumstances.
I have never been raped. I can’t begin to understand the trauma of a rape victim. I am not in a position to judge her on the decisions she makes should the rape result in pregnancy.
I have never been suicidal. I have felt really, really low and I didn’t want to live anymore after the three losses. I went through a period where waking up was the worst part of the day but I got through it with the help of my family. I never planned to take my life. I can begin to understand the trauma of what leads there but I would think that I’m still not close enough. I am still not in a position to judge a suicidal woman on what she does with her pregnancy. There are husbands and families that have been left to survive without their wives and mothers because they were not able to get through their pregnancy.
This is real life. It’s complex, it’s painful, it’s cruel and it’s heartbreaking.
The ‘pro life’ campaigners sprout such hypocrisy in relation to supporting life but they are not ‘pro-life’. They are pro condemning myself and my husband. They are pro condemning those who are suicidal and those who have been raped. They lack compassion and support for women and couples whose dreams have been crushed. They live in an ‘ideal world’ where everything should be as they wish it to be. They have an idealistic impression of reproduction while some of us through no choice of our own have been catapulted into the ‘real world’ and have had to face things we never dreamed of.
Girls never dream of being raped.
Girls never dream of a fatal foetal abnormality.
Girls never ever ever dream of having a termination.
The author wishes to remain anonymous.
I have a friend who had her 14 week scan last week. They found cancer. At the oncology clinic yesterday they were told she could not have a termination or any treatment until the baby was born. They are going back to her homeland for a second opinion. This baby is very much wanted but they also have a baby at home under the age of 1. They suffered a miscarriage at 20 weeks with their first child. Their world has been turned upsida down and its heartbreaking. I really thought that new legislation would allow her to have a termination but No. The oncologist didn’t even consider a premature birth, so she could have treatment.
Apparently the mother’s health and wellbeing don’t matter. What a horrendous situation. I wish them well
The child has a right to live. The mother can still get treatment in a few months. The child is dead once aborted and gets no second chances. Nobody has the right to choose the life of one over another.
And so it begins Ailbhe , we will be drip fed stories / personal decisions etc etc , celebs of various types will come out , a Journalist , there will have to be a Politician of course , it will be a rerun of the Marriage Referendum, guilt will be mentioned , when will Ireland become etc etc , badges , posters flags paid for by who ? , the reality if limited Abortion is allowed it will as it has in Britain become a form of contraception, when a mothers life is in danger of course but Abortion on demand , no thanks , one of the yes crowd suggested that if we had our own Abortion Service here it would create jobs ??
And if the mother will die if left untreated for another 6 months? That’s choosing the life of a foetus over the life of a mother. Does her life not matter?
Mike, you sound a little paranoid.
@Lily. Yet another example of why a piecemeal approach to abortion cannot work. This woman with cancer would not be eligible for an abortion on grounds of suicidality, ffa or rape. In order to assign equal value to a woman’s life, we need to repeal the 8th.
I fully understand that elective abortions are a difficult moral issue and I would hate to see a situation like in Britain, but a ban with limited exceptions is unworkable.
The woman can wait? Jesus Christ Are you listening to yourself? You know time is of the essence with cancer right? A perfect insight into the unimaginable distain some anti-choice people have for women. They truly are just vessels for a fetus to you right?
It’s heartbreaking. They want the baby, they also want treatment. Hopefully their own country can put forward something workable. At least put forward other options. So they can choose which way to go. They have made an appointment with an oncologist in their own country and take it from there. It’s extremely sad.
Clinical medical considerations should never be contaminated by confused and confusing legal considerations. The life and health of the pregnant woman should come first.
I’m shocked that people like 6Degrees and others think that they can play oncologist.
Bad law undermines the practice of good medicine.
That’s awful lily . Just awful. I hope she gets all the help she needs back at her home country.
@Lily
Then that oncologist should be reported to the Medical Council. As far as I know, Irish law does not prevent the administering of treatment to a pregnant woman for cancer. The oncologist should have sought legal advice.
6Deegreesbelle,
Jesus, are you serious? Do you read what you write?
That is not “pro-life” at all of you and is the perfect example of the hypocrisy mentioned in this article of those who claim they are “pro-life”.
@Mike Cantwell
Abortion involves the ending of the life of an unborn child. That means that conception has already taken place. Therefore, abortion is not a form of contraception.
A future amendment on abortion might retain some protection for the life of the unborn child within reason and the fact that Ireland, unlike the UK, has a written constitution makes an Irish version of Great Britain’s situation with regard to abortion unlikely.
It is likely that most of the people who voted for same-sex marriage are in favour of abortion in at least some circumstances.
“Nobody has the right to choose one life over another”? What a sweet idea, best suited to fairytales and utopian fiction. Down here in cold adult reality, we have to make these choices all the time – every hospital admissions procedure, every foreign aid budget, every peacekeeping mission, every allocation of medical research funding or decision on upgrading a dangerous bend. Except when it comes to abortion of course, where instead we just export the problem to a neighbouring jurisdiction and go on singing hymns our own purity.
Why is it when pro-lifers show concern for anything it makes my skin crawl. Why show such compassion for the unborn, then contempt for others in need in our society? Pro-life and anti everything else. Miserable lot.
The other child’s right to have a alive mother, what about that ?
What kind of a world do you live in?
She can get treatment later? If we all had that attitude towards our health half of us would be dead for a starters.
And who are you to decide that a foetuses life is more important than the Mothers? Without her the child wouldn’t exist actually.
I just can’t comprehend how there isn’t more available options in Ireland as there is abroad to help this poor lady.
6 degrees I am pro life/anti abortion.. There is no way this woman should have to wait 1 second longer for treatment just because she is pregnant.. No way!
Cancer doesn’t always require immediate treatment to prevent death. Have people here seen the severity of the woman’s condition? To terminate the child ensures a life will be lost. Get some medical facts before you start calling for the murder of an innocent baby.
It does prevent the administering of any medication or procedure which may possibly end the pregnancy. This was the Case with Michelle Harte who had to travel to the UK for a termination before she could have chemo. Michelle applied to have the abortion here but was delayed and refused and in the end lost her battle with cancer but not after she sued the HSE and won.
This is the case with other women who move to the UK to have chemo while pregnant and then go on to have a healthy baby and have the cancer go into remission but that options NOT possible here while the 8th amendment is in place.
Oh please, If she had stage 3 lung cancer you’d still be ranting on.
6degreesbelle, firstly even if her life isn’t in immediate risk, her health certainly is and do you honestly think 9 months without treatment will help her situation alongside the trauma that even a healthy pregnancy can bring with it?
If a woman wishes to continue a pregnancy when she discovers she is ill then that’s fine, what your advocating is the denial of treatment of a woman regardless of her wishes, holding her body hostage to the fetus that grows inside her and essentially playing Russian roulette with her life and health. Your position is an absolute disgrace.
The X case legislation only applies if your life is in danger, but not your health. It’s a farce and relegates women to second class citizenship in the eyes of the healthcare system .
Lily, that sounds appalling. If your friend would like to seek further support and advice she can contact the Association for Improvements in the Maternity Services (AIMS) Ireland who will help her to explore her options properly.
Again, read the information provided before commenting. She won’t have to wait 9 months as she is already 15 weeks pregnant. Babies have survived when born at 25 weeks. Are you all really that eager to kill a child?
6Degrees, hypothetical situation (that has happened). A woman is diagnosed with cancer and needs immediate treatment. She is 6 weeks pregnant. The treatment will fatally harm the foetus. Should she have a choice to save her life or should she be forced to die?
Great, start talking hypothetical when there is a case at hand. Why not concentrate on this actual case rather than making up scenarios?
I’m referencing real scenarios that occur every day. Why can’t you answer? It seems to me that you cannot handle the complexity of the situation. You’ve a simplistic view and pretend it is a simple issue.
I’m not answering your hypothetical question as I don’t want to get drawn into one of your usual sidetracking debates. Although debate is probably not the right term, rant is perhaps more suitable.
These are real life situations regarding abortion, there is no sidetracking debates here. I think you’ve lost this one mate.
Yup, total loss. It’s completely relevant to this debate but you refuse to answer as it highlights the grey areas you refuse to believe exist. You’re the epitome of all pro-lifers I’ve ever spoken to. Insulting, ignorant with a simplistic view of the situation.
The rights of the mother should never be put above the child. Never.
Oh and Ailbhe, time to take down the Vote Yes image. The referendum is long over.
So your attitude is f*** the mother, the baby matters more. Classy
I have taken it down, the app doesn’t recognise that I have.
That’s not my attitude, but I believe everyone has an equal right to life. It’s not up to us to decide and the baby has just as much right as the mother. This includes babies born out of rape as I’m sure that’s a question you’re going to ask next as per usual.
If the mother waits for treatment, she could die leaving her two children under the age of 3 with no mother. And what happened to every child needs a mother and father campaign that was rampant only a few weeks ago.
So they have an equal right to life, but if they don’t have an equal chance to live, you would sacrifice the mother for the sake of the baby?
6degreesBelle would you accept delayed treatment for a 7 year old boy who was told he needed to grow at least another inch before he would be dealt with? How about expecting an adult man or a woman who wasn’t pregnant being told nothing will be done for 5 months because the alignment of the planets is off? Crazy reasons, of course, but why should pregnancy deny a sentient, adult woman *her* right to life through necessary medical treatment?
A pregnant woman is more than an incubator.
Delayed treatment can result in two lives being saved. Abortion results in the loss of one for certain.
I’m pretty sure that Russian Roulette is illegal in this country..
Don’t think it is, but murder certainly is. Again, don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Not always 6degrees. Instances occur where only one life can be saved. In those instances do you prioritise the foetus over the mother always?
The best thing is that the law shares my view. It’s great to live in a country that protects the unborn.
Abortion is not legally murder, but don’t let legal facts interrupt your chain of utter waffle.
Well said Anne Marie.
Go try to have an abortion then and see how far you get. England perhaps? Luckily all your ranting is in vain as the law supports my views and not yours. You’re welcome to live in another country if you want your abortion on demand.
Ailbhe,
On your question to 6Degrees, “In those instances do you prioritise the foetus over the mother always?”
They already answered above: “The rights of the mother should never be put above the child. Never.”
They don’t care about the woman, only the foetus.
@Jan Ní Shuilleabháin
Michelle Harte was denied an abortion in Cork; there’s no indication that she was denied chemotherapy. She could have gone ahead with chemotherapy without having an abortion. If she had done that and the unborn child had died as a result, the death of the unborn child would have been incidental (i.e. not the aim of the chemotherapy) and would thus not have been an abortion in the eyes of Irish law, i.e. the principle of double-effect.
“However, the hospital’s ethics forum decided against allowing the abortion, saying her life was not under ‘ immediate threat.’”
The ethics forum didn’t say that she couldn’t have gone ahead with the chemotherapy.
We are talking 6Degreesbelle about the 8th anendment. Discussing how this affects every-day decisions with regard to pregnant women suffering from cancer is far from sidetracking. After our victory in the recent referendum, we are at this stage well used to people like you sidetracking. Unless you want to answer the question that is. If a woman needs immediate treatment to save her life, but such treatment would terminate her pregnancy, should she be left to die or saved to have other children? Truly cannot wait to hear you response. I probably will have to wait…a long, long, long time.
Indeed 6degrees. But the real Ireland the rest of us live in has woken up and found its teeth and we are snapping at your heels. As I said in many posts, people like you jad your time, did your evil, but the game is up. Spew as much as you want. We have won and we will win again and Ireland will be a more compassionate place and not the drachonian distopia that you still want.
Just to make this clear. The woman is still pregnant and still has cancer. all she wants at this exact point in time is options. The only one she has been given is to let nature take its course. But she wants other options, the has not gone back to her homeland for a termination, she has gone for a second medical opinion, that will ultimately result in more options being made available to her. she then has to choose which option to choose but she wants and loves this baby, if she makes a choice to terminate it will be the hardest choice she has ever had to make. But hopefully something can be worked out where by both survive that is her ideal goal. But one thing is certain she will never ever be able to have/carry/conceive another child as she will have to have a full hysterectomy.
Actually Ciarán she was not only denied the abortion but the hospital also refused to allow her to continue on the treatment for her cancer she had been doing well on as she was pregnant. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-settled-with-cancer-patient-1.555035
This caused her cancer to significantly worsen and she later died.
Lily, I would really encourage you to let her know about AIMS Ireland – I’m involved with them and we run an information and support service by email for women.
She has already given up on the Irish health system. She home now and I truly hope she gets the answers she needs.
Your “friend” was given the wrong information. On a Number of issues.
1 Chemotherapy or any treatment is not withheld even if it harm’s the baby.
2An abortion would not cure her cancer, so I don’t know why that is even an issue.
3The decision on whether, or not to deliver early, is the remit of the obgyn, not the oncologist. It is not the oncologists call, unless the oncologist deemed an early delivery would be detrimental to you “friends” health.
An abortion is not going to cure your friend’s cancer. My friend Audrey McElliott received treatment throughout her pregnancy when diagnosed with cancer. Both her and her child are doing fantastic. I suggest your friend to forward a complaint for been refused treatment for cancer during her pregnancy because that is unethical & illegal here in Ireland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tyh4zRsE8
I see 6degrees again cannot acknowledge the complexity of the situation and avoids the question. Well done
It is rather odd that some women are refused treatment for cancer when it is completely unethical yet other women have succeeded to continue with their pregnancies & be provided treatment here in Ireland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tyh4zRsE8 https://www.siliconrepublic.com/gear/2011/07/22/a-loving-legacy-blog-enables-mum-to-live-forever
That’s the nature of the ambiguous 8th amendment Marion
@6Degreesbelle
You are not pro-life. You are pro-birth no matter what the cost.
If you were pro-life you would want this woman to have cancer treatment asap.
Maybe, Marion, it’s because doctors and hospitals have historically been terrified of acting because certain groups are happy to report doctors who act to protect women – see the article from several days ago to confirm their fears are totally justified.
I find this rather odd because I continued to receive treatment throughout pregnancy for my serious medical condition & attended my specialist on a monthly basis alongside pre-natal visits. My child is special needs as a result of my treatment but I wouldn’t change the world.
>So your attitude is f*** the mother, the baby matters more. Classy
Not even a baby. They think an egg fertilised yesterday trumps the rights of a woman. Pure madness.
The 8th amendment doesn’t deny medical treatment for women with serious medical conditions throughout pregnancy. I wasn’t denied treatment.
Nick Beard you native US has a higher maternal mortality rate than Ireland, abortion obviously hasn’t resolved the problem there.
Lily, your “friend” has been given the wrong information, on three accounts.
1, there is No prohibition, constitutional or otherwise, on a mother receiving treatment for any condition, even if that treatment has as a side effect of causing loss of life to the baby.
2 A termination would not cure her cancer, or treat it in any way, so Why bwas it even brought into the equation?
3 The decision deliver prematurely, is not the call of the oncologist, but is in the remit of the obgyn.
I suggest your ‘friend’ lodge a complaint to the IMO as this is a blatant case of misconduct, and nothing to do with the 8th amendment.
I have no objection to pregnant mothers receiving cancer treatment just like my friend Audrey Mc Elliott. Also I received treatment throughout pregnancy which is why my daughter has special needs. You are rather judgmental towards people you don’t know.
Marion, just because you weren’t does not mean some aren’t. The treatment you received was not terminal for the foetus. Doctors are very reluctant to offer treatments that are for fear of legal repercussions.
I am sure everyone from the 1950′s and 1960′s is well aware of the RC hospital rules- that the life of the mother comes last and the life of the child first…..no matter what.
The mother in law is a breeder/vessel and not even considered human- regarded as not even having a soul, being Eve ill Eve etc.
These laws still exist inside the court system – which is still controlled by the RC.
A live birth – berth cert is all that matters- $$$$$$$$
Michelle Harte was on an experimental drug and the drug company in question denied her the drug because she was pregnant. The medical profession in Ireland didn’t deny her chemo. It must be noted that Michelle Harte after completing her abortion still died whereas other women who have continued with their pregnancies and underwent treatment are still alive. This lady who was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer during pregnancy, received treatment, is still alive today.
http://www.nationalist.ie/news/local-news/pregnant-mother-goes-online-to-detail-her-fight-against-cancer-1-2903558
No, 6Degreesbelle. It may be too late at that stage. Even the Catholic Church says that if the life of the mother is in danger then abortion is permissible. A lot of Catholic pro life people don’t even accept the teaching of their own church.
The UK hasn’t been an RC country since Henry VIII and still has a higher maternal mortality rate than the RC Ireland. Rather odd is it not? However the riskiest conditions in the UK are flu and sepsis. http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/12December/Pages/Significant-reduction-in-maternal-death-rates.aspx
As I have highlighted it is illegal to deny women treatment throughout pregnancy in Ireland so Gardai should be involved. I will admit I am lucky but my medical condition is the second riskiest condition to have during pregnancy. There is a high risk of miscarriage, complications & delivering early. My aunt’s best friend has the same complaint didn’t carry any of two daughters full term & has had several miscarriages.
Just checked your account by clicking on your name. No Twitter or Facebook account. Hmm…
Just to say surgery during her pregnancy is not an option it would involve removing her womb and the baby within it. Radiation isn’t an option and she has been denied chemo until after the baby is born. 6 months is a long time to play a waiting game. it could easily spread. So hopefully by the rnd of the week she will have her second opinion.
Mary, I don’t think you can click them anymore. At least I can’t
Marion, that’s a lot of posts saying very little. It’s great that you were able to receive treatment – but clearly, all women are not and some have died as a result. The Eighth Amendment as a tool which allows groups like Youth Defence (which I believe you are active member of) to intimidate doctors who are trying to care for women has created a situation where not all women receive support and treatment. I’m sure you agree this has led to an awful situation for women which should be changed.
Sorry, Marion, Ireland’s maternal mortality rate passed the UK’s rate last count. The riskiest conditions in both the UK and in Ireland is cardiac disease.
Poor lady. She has made the right decision to go to a different country to look for help. In any other country, if she has to be treated and which is best with any form of cancer, she will be offered the option of abortion with no “pro-lifers” annoying and nagging around. No one should postpone cancer treatment under any circumstances, as every hour lost is a tiny lost chance.
Not under immediate threat? Like she wasn’t going to die within an hour? The poor woman is dead. Spare me please. Being pregnant is not enough but you would want a pregnant woman to have chemo? You would sure sing differently if you were in her shoes.
When was that ‘last count’ Kristine?. And when was the one before that.?
When was this ‘last count’. And when was the one before that?
Even the Catholic Church disagrees with you on this one, 6Degreesbelle! The teaching was changed so that if the only way to save a mother’s life in acute urgency is an abortion, then it can be done.
I could and got no account of that name on my Internet browser. The nearest I got was 6Degreesfans on Twitter. No FB account.
So the child has a right to live and the mother doesn’t ?
So what is this woman in your eyes? A mere vessel to produce a child? The woman is a living and breathing human being on this earth, she in entitled to full medical care and treatment regardless of being pregnant or not. She’s not seeking a termination for selfish reasons, she wants this baby. I think it’s time to stay quiet and keep your ignorant opinions to yourself, you’re making a show of yourself.
@Sinéad
The article doesn’t say that the hospital refused to continue the treatment.
That is either a lie or your friend has got second hand wrong information, if I was you I’d look into that. There is no way a woman would be refused cancer treatment on any grounds.
I believe a ban with limited exceptions may be workable. I would hate to have a situation like in Britain, but I would like a situation where a woman can have an abortion on medical and criminal grounds. If contracteption in Ireland was free and more easily accessable and sex education was given in schools more seriously perhaps there would be less unwanted pregnancies. Also, I have heard some women choose to have an abortion as the father of the child refuses to pay child support. If fathers did have to pay child support and could not refuse, perhaps men would take contraception more seriously and their would be less unwanted pregnancies.
Marion, are you suggesting that your life is the yardstick by which all women should be measured and your condition and its treatment should be a convenient stencil for all doctors to use on women no matter what the condition. If that is how you feel, I suspect you serious condition is of a mental nature. I hope our childcare services are aware of this. Please contact them for help if you feel you are not coping.
Another persons decision on ‘their’ pregnancy is sweet fook all to do with me .Simples.
@M. Ni Chuinn, We have a situation like Britain, the only difference is that Irish women have to pay for their procedures themselves and have the added risk of travel too soon after the procedure. I wholeheartedly agree re free contraception and sex education.
@ Ailbhe
Yes Mary?
This country’s law in this area is sick and distressing to me. I can only imagine how it upsets the woman you describe. Pro-Choice!!!!!!
@6Degreesbelle. Isn’t your post a tad hypocriteacal?. “Nobody has the right to choose one life over another” You know by choosing to save the foetus you show little regard for the life of this woman who could very likely die if she is forced to wait for treatment, as everyone knows you need to act quickly re cancer. Your opinion baffles me and can’t be rooted in any logic, only irrationality, perhaps you’re coming from a religious perspective? I’m really trying to understand. How could you suggest a woman in this position risk her life waiting for treatment; it’s an unimaginably horrendous situation, but the foetus is not a child, and has not been born and you are suggesting to risk this woman’s life?
*Hypocritical.
When was that ‘last count’ Kristine. And when was the one before that?
A hysterectomy is most defiantly an option. Your ‘friend’ definatlely needs to find another doctor!
Ian. Marion is most definitely NOT using her life is a yardstick. She is saying that the claim that a pregnant mother is denied treatment does not stand up to scrutiny, and is using her experience, and that of Cancer sufferer Audrey Mc Elligot to illustrate WHY they do not stand up to scrutiny.
However I suspect you know this.. You are just looking for an excuse to be nasty!
Page 15 shows the last two counts of Irish maternal mortalities, the only ones that are comparable to the UK as the data is collected following the same criteria. Page 17 shows the comparison to the UK MMR.
But the mother may be dead in a few months or it may be too late at that stage to receive the correct treatment to save her life, if the worse were to come to the worse and she had other children at home who needed her ? Don’t u have any compassion in a situation like this?
She can have what ever damn image she wants!! Seriously worst comeback ever!!
This is not true – women are not denied treatment for cancer in pregnancy in Ireland even if that treatment would harm the baby. Please name this hospital so it can be investigated and doctors brought before the Medical Council for failing in their professional responsibility to this woman.
Once again a judgmental ignorant pro-abort who knows nothing about me.
Subjective experience must enlighten us in these matters. Who am I to deny this person her right to decide for herself what she needed or wanted to do. On matters of such importance, there must be proper autonomy of decision making, not inflexible, one size fits all legal restrictiveness.
It is proper that we should be emotionally moved by such experience and tgat we should have enough compassion to know that the law is not nuanced enough to address the hugely personal issues.
Repeal the Eight Amendment by Referendum of the people.
Are the voters of 1983, who were drive by the Roman Catholic Church and PLAC to decide in perpetuity on this issue. Are the voters of 2015 not entitled to vote on this issue 32 years later?
Well said Anthony.
Hard cases make bad law.
Thanks for sharing your story, women like us shouldn’t have to be grilled and tormented and judged. until you are told this diagnosis you can not image the feeling.
A brave and beatifully honest story of the ‘real world’ so many of us live in. life sometimes isn’t the black & white some people would like it to be, and force of law and criminal sanctions are not a suitable means of imposing their black and white upon the shades of grey of the real world. #repealthe8th #notacriminal
More pro abortion propaganda from the journal!
Would this be similar to the “More gay propaganda by the journal” that people like you cobstantly posted. I think you’ve shot your powder on that one. Welcome to real Ireland where people like me are a political force to reckon with. I don’t imagine you feel comfortable with that, for many reasons.
Try not to worry- you will never be pregnant and have to make such decisions.
@Ian – Definition of propaganda for you as you possibly did not learn it in school. In the journall’s case it is a regular pushing of one point of view at the expense of any opposing view. Regards.
propaganda |prɒpəˈgandə|
noun
1 [ mass noun ] information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view
Dude, they post anti-abortion articles from time to time. Is that propaganda too?
Well Dude, as well as learning about propaganda in school, I also learned about it as an undergrad, while studying propaganda film of the Nazi period, also covered it in Critical Discourse Analysis and even had a sniff at it during my MA studies in Medieval Culture and Language. At the moment I am writing a treatise on the effects of male-dominated media on single women during the reign of Victoria. Propaganda played a huge part. So, having dealt with this concept not only in real life when fighting the negative effects of the No-side propaganda, I also have a vast academic knowledge with regard to propaganda, you on the other hand can read a dictionary. I see that your education has not been a complete waste. Well done. So, besides trying to educate me to a higher degree than three universities with your dictionary extract, what exactly is your point?
Oh Ian. Wonderful
Oh Ian. A whole lot of fabulous, glitzy, full of attitude, self-indulgent waffle/tripe there, yet you still asked him what was his point. My less educated, but more intelligent 13 year old nephew would get the point he was trying to get across.
Classic!
Ian with research it would be very possible to write a paper, to balance any view, you know this! While your education and knowledge may interest people, you wouldn’t take anyones angle on anything unless you were privy to reading their researched treatise, and then going off to verify the sources and scrutinise the information. there isn’t a opinion piece out there that’s water tight and I know, that Ailbhe places a lot of faith in science, but seems to find very little reason to question anyone who offers a plausible image of themselves as an expert,( word of mouth) but yet have zero evidence of their expertise.
Let me simplify it for you David vote no, you lot lost, our lot won, you are in an ever dwindling minority, no links or expertise needed, and we will win this one.
Glitzy Danny, lol, ok. Well done to your less educated nephew. You have him well trained if he can see a point in a pointless comment based on lies. But shur here’s another bit of glitz for you. I am going to sit in my house (owned by me, no mortgage) sipping my long cocktail (well, ok, it’s a cup of tea) snuggling up to my handsome boyfriend ( I love his blue eyes. So beautiful…. What?!…..I didn’t put the cap back on the toothpaste? You didn’t put the bloody rubbish out!) Where was I? Oh yes, I’ll sit here in my perfect, glitzy world ( and here’s the fun bit) watching the world that bigots fueled by religious blindness cherish (because it is their only way of feeling better than others) crumbles. You know it. I know you know it. The YES vote waa the beginning. And by the way, being proud of your achievements is not attitude. Share with us. What have you achieved?
ahh phil if only words on paper could truely change something in reality.
Yeah, the law changes nothing ever. We’re all walking around punching people in the face just for looking at us and robbing banks twice a day…
Ailbhe, you’ve just proven that you don’t need a piece of paper to tell you the difference from right or wrong, or perhaps you do in, ink on paper land.
Too true
@Ian Philip Creaner – You know what Ian, When I read your responses, the following verse from the bible came to me.
James 4:6 – “God resists (stands against, opposes, hinders) the proud (arrogant,
smug), but gives grace (help, aid, assistance, ability) to the humble.”
Excellent piece of writing, anyone who has been close to the situations described will appreciate the simple truth in this article, and the importance of its message. To those who can sail blissfully by in ignorance, gratitude for their own good fortune would be more appropriate than didactic superiority.
The Eight Amendment is a legal and logical nonsense, driven by religious dogma and a continuing threat to the lives and health of pregnant women.
I had a clear mammogram in 2006. A year later almost to the day I was diagnosed with two tumours, one of which had spread to the sentinel node. My life was already in danger by the time I was diagnosed in that no one could say for sure if the cancer had spread further.
If I had been pregnant and unable to have treatment I think it would have been too late by the time the baby was born. This amendment should be scrapped. It’s not fit got purpose. There’s too much ambiguity to it.
‘Anonymous’
Says it all really.
Pure fiction.
So people don’t anonymously post then no? I assume Jack Underscore Teller is your real name then
Why is it pure fiction? Maybe this poor woman doesn’t want everyone to know her business but wanted to put her side across. Like she said, walk a day her her shoes and feel her emotions. Then you would be less likely to judge.
Linda, if I were this woman I’d remain anonymous too. The shrill screams of ‘murderer’ that the anti-abortion crowd let out at any opportunity and others torents of abuse are unfathomable.
Ailbhe, it’s bad enough that you feel the need to comment on every story, but do you have to comment on every comment now too? Isn’t there a feminist, all men are terrible and I need to bash the church rally on for you today?
Awe, a little personal attack by a woman with no concern for the welfare of other women. Is that all you can manage? The pro-lifers are off their game today if that’s the standard of their insults.
6Degreesbelle, isn’t there a toilet you should be sticking your head into?
What do you want jack? An address to send the angry mob?!
And what about your comments,Wesole ? – At least Ailbhe keeps commenting with ‘real’ account .Unlike you .
*her
@Ailbhe – the premeditated killing of another human is what it is, regardless of what euphemism one uses to go along with it ie. Termination, pro choice etc.
Ah if only life were that simple dude. It’s ok if you can’t fathom the complexity of the issue.
We can’t say it’s pure fiction @Jack_Teller. The trouble is that written anonymously the truth of it can be questioned (as you have done); that’s why true journalism always seeks to verify sources first. I can understand why this woman wrote anonymously, but I can’t understand why The Journal would, because it discredits the pain she has gone through which I doubt was her intention in doing the article anonymously.
@Ailbhe – you can take down the ‘Yes for Equality ‘ photo now Ailbhe. The referendum is well over. As far as this issue is concerned, I understand the ‘humanity’ of the unborn – of which the premeditated destruction through abortion is most certainly killing. So keep on substituting your linguistic euphemisms – the act remains what it is.
So you’re saying you understand ONE side of the discussion. Exactly my point Dude. By the way I have changed my picture but it isn’t reflected in the journal app. One of many of the updated versions glitches. Check my Twitter profile and see for yourself.
@Ailbhe – No, I’m saying that taking the life of an unborn human being is premeditated killing – and no linguistic euphemism that attempts to gloss that over, will ever change that.
And have you any concern for the mother and her welfare? Or is her bodily autonomy sacrificed when she conceives? Direct questions, because I know you will avoid them.
@The Dude- you can call it premeditated killing if you wish, and I am still fine with it. At 15 weeks, there is very little difference between the cancerous tumour and the foetus as at this stage they are both just growths in the woman’s body. Although, one will certainly kill her, and the other has a chance of life.
My view is we should protect the lives we have on the planet first. (And I of course realise that all of this is based on the notion that I don’t believe a foetus is a life as it couldn’t survive outside the womb until around 21 weeks. I am sure you would disagree).
@Just – Yes you are right. I do disagree with your view that a foetus is not human.
@Ailbhe – You are being disingenuous because you are campaigning for abortion on demand. You are merely arguing this exceptional case as a means to that end.
No dude, that’s a wildly incorrect assumption. I oppose abortion on demand actually. Nice try though. Do can you answer the questions or will you avoid them a second time?
Should I take mine down too Dude? Nah. I’d like to rub your face in it a bit more. ….. Yup. Not done yet. Just repeat three times a day, ” We lost, they won”. Oh and get used to the idea too. The type of Ireland you jack off to is dead and gone, even rejected by an older demographic that has found its political conscious and its teeth.
@Dude – nice attempt to twist it, but I never said, or implied, that a foetus is not human…. I said it is not a life. The difference being, for example, that dead people are still human.
Try to leave the childish antics out of the debate if you want to have one, will you please?
If the foetus in utero isn’t human then what species is it? Also when does this alien form of life become human because no other form of life on the planet changes species.
Still no answer from the dude, strange that
@Marion – I don’t think anyone has suggested that a foetus is not human. @Dude was trying to incorrectly imply that I had said it.
Odd then that he went on to assert that @Ailbhe was the one being disingenuous.
The mother – refused treatment- is also premeditated murder-so that is OK to you?
You fail to see the Mother as the Creator of this life and in typical patriarchal mentality – are groomed to believe its ok to kill Her.
Motherhood is so not valued in Ireland but the spouting of Hitler’s Best interest of the child” is deafening.
It must be a great life, Dude, all nice black and white, with not a shade of grey to confuse you!
@Ailbhe – To answer your question – I am against the killing of an unborn child in the name of inconvenience for a woman. Other rate and exceptional circumstances have to be judged on their own merit. Also, as I am a busy person living in the real world, I am not continually monitoring the journal at every moment do satisfy other commenters with a response.
Should read ‘Rare’ not rate.
@Just – So is an unborn child human or not? I believe to claim otherwise is factually absurd. If so, then surely it is entitled to all the rights that go with that including the right to life.
Ok dude, a woman is pregnant. For the foetus to survive it is probable the woman will die as a result. Is that an inconvenience or does the woman matter enough to be afforded lifesaving treatment at the expense of the foetus?
Also, why do you suggest somebody else said the foetus is not human if they didn’t say so? Isn’t that disingenuous???
@Dude – I never questioned if an unborn child is human or not so it is a bit petty of you to try and make it seem as though I did.
Simply put, I believe life begins between 20 and 23 weeks, when the foetus becomes viable outside the womb. I would be against abortion after that time, if the baby does not suffer a FFA
@Just – Is an unborn child 1-20 weeks human or not? If you believe it is no, then please tell me what species it belongs to as I would like to increase my knowledge.
That is the worst comment I have ever seen in regards to an unborn.
A cancerous tumour.
Shocking
Just because you don’t believe life begins before 20+ weeks doesn’t make it so. Life begins at conception whether you believe it or not
If it wasn’t alive it would not be growing or developing
Dude, I notice you’ve ignored my question again…
As expected, a pro-lifers opinion doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and they disappear at the sign of a slightly difficult question. Come back when your opinion is less hypocritical Dud
Some of the comments on here are sickening. I feel for the author and her husband as I can relate to their experience. Some people on here seem to think people make that decision with the flip of a coin. I can assure you it was probably the hardest decision they have had to make. It’s shocking to think people think it’s fiction or that the parents are murderers. They done what is best for them and their child, who are you to deny them that right to be able to have it done here! You wouldn’t wish that situation on your worst enemy and I hope all you people that are against abortion never come up against this!!
What a heartbreaking piece. Please know not everyone judges you or criticises you. I hope you get to hold a clearly longed for baby. And @ D, my thoughts are with you too. I genuinely cannot listen to people spouting on about pro life and hurting those who’ve had to deal with one of the most soul wrenching diagnoses and paths anyone has had to travel.
“We delivered our baby girl in the maternity section of a hospital with no intervention other than tablets to bring on the pregnancy.”
Why no mention of the Doctors’ role/advice?
Opinion: A fatal foetal diagnosis is nobody’s fault – the deliberate lack of support by the State is.
http://jrnl.ie/1572500
Thanks for that – it was helpful.
Brilliant article, so well written. My heart goes out to you and any woman who had to make decisions like this and I fully understand and respect the choices you made here :(
What the shoes of the unborn? Just a thought as they will never have a chance to walk in them?
Yes you’re right. Babies with FFA don’t get to walk in their shoes. Well done on grasping that concept. It’s one parents I this situation are well aware of as we continue life without our babies.
Why use the tiny minority as an example to attack the truth?
Thank you for bravely sharing your story
An article truly written from the heart
For such a heartbreaking story you write it so well
I read some comments but they made me sick to my guy
Judging a person does not define who they are it defines who you are
have your say