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A GROUP OF voters who remained undecided on the Eighth Amendment referendum up until last week has told TheJournal.ie that they all voted yes – and outlined why.
Before last week’s referendum, which saw 66% of voters choose to repeal the Eighth Amendment, we asked for undecided voters to get in contact.
In a follow-up series of interviews, all said that they had opted to vote Yes.
The reasons they gave varied, though nearly all voiced some concerns about abortion being widely available and availed of in Ireland.
As one woman put it:
“I’m not a fan of abortion, but I was even less of a fan of the Eighth Amendment.”
One woman, Jennifer*, said that she had seen both arguments up until last Tuesday when she opted to vote for repeal.
“The Claire Byrne debate and TheJournal.ie‘s FactChecks were huge for me in forming my opinion.
“The main thing for me was that the No campaign wasn’t offering a solution to the hard cases. I wouldn’t agree with 12 weeks unrestricted, but the Yes side made their case better in the end.”
Another woman, Niamh*, said that her Yes vote was in search of a compromise.
“I wasn’t happy with the 12 weeks and the idea of a 12-week-old foetus being treated like medical waste didn’t sit well with me, so I was trying to reach some sort of a compromise.
“I would have preferred a softer proposal, but I wasn’t really confident that would happen soon if there was a No vote. It wasn’t worth risking the results of a No vote.
“I found it hard because the No side were coming from an extreme place. Most of us are in the middle, but nobody was supporting the middle. I’d still have a lot of reservations, I hope there will be the proper counselling and supports for women – not just abortions.
“If I see high stats in a few years of the numbers of people having abortions, I reckon I’ll regret voting Yes.”
Reasons
For those undecideds, their testimony reflects that outlined in an RTÉ exit poll on voter reasoning. It found:
Mark* said that for him the issue came down to the balancing of a woman’s rights against those of the unborn.
“I just felt the amendment was wrong.
“I would never consider that the unborn child had the same rights as the mother.
I know that it will allow abortion and I’m not in favour of abortion on demand, but I trust our politicians to come up with good legislation.
“What we’ll have may be fairly limited.”
While the level of coverage around the referendum was massive, Linda* told us that the key driver in her decision to vote Yes was hearing the personal stories of women who’ve had abortions. She cited the In Her Shoes Facebook page as being instrumental in forming her opinion.
What came to help me was putting myself in the shoes of someone who had a crisis pregnancy. I realised I couldn’t say for sure what I would do.
“I felt it would be hypocritical to vote No.
“The more stories you heard, the more you realised that nobody was being flippant about it. It’s a sad situation to be in.”
*All names have been anonymised at the request of the participants
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The no side had 35 years to offer solutions to the hard cases and did nothing. They were just happy to export the problem and make believe that they lived in a catholic country.
Hopefully this is the end of the road for the likes of Sherlock, the Iona “Institute” (sic) et al. They’ve lost every campaign that they’ve fought.
@O’Boyle Darragh: as far as they are concerned, they still control the education system, the healthcare system and the media (rte), as well as certain individuals in the government and civil service – so individual campaigns are just chinks on the road. Only full separation of church and state will see the back of these front line charlatans.
@O’Boyle Darragh:
Iona institute have lost the last battle and that’s the decisive one, they have effectively been wiped out , any noise you might hear from them in future is that of a few surviving stragglers disappearing over the hills.
Go in peace the 35 year war is over.
@Barry Foster: I think they lost battles like the divorce, and same sex marriage, however for them abortion was the war, it was their number 1 priority and the one they in which they took the biggest hammering at the polls.
I think it is disgraceful that an unelected, undemocratic, extreme pressure group who should never be allowed use the word institution got a crazily disproportional amount of air time over the last couple of months.
@O’Boyle Darragh:
The yes side also had 35 years to come up with solutions or was abortion the only solution they wanted.
@Aine O Connor: What other solutions are there? Continue to export the problem and keep your head in the sand?
@Aine O Connor: Most people in support of repealing the 8th, are also in favour of other methods that reduce the number of abortions needed, such as improved sex education, easier and cheaper access to all kinds of contraceptives, living wages, affordable housing, and childcare, etc.
However, the Iona Institute would be against most of these, especially better information contraceptives and sex education in schools, due to their catholic ethos.
It was either facilitate abortion here or continue the status quo and ship it abroad. At least now we can manage it with care and compassion.
@gowfc@yahoo.com W: Refusing to legislate to deal with hard cases worked for the abortion supporters.
@gowfc@yahoo.com W: it was a clever tactic by the yes side, knowing that abortion on demand wouldn’t pass on its own merits they decided to lump it in with the 1% of hard cases; and then had Simon Harris come out scaring people saying that if it doesn’t pass there “won’t be another vote for a generation.”
People accuse the no side of scare mongering but that one statement forced more people to vote yes than any other… Imagine the side who “cares about women” saying that if it’s a no vote we won’t do anything for those women in tragic situations – it’s abortion on demand or nothing – while knowing full well that 90% of no voters would have happily voted for case specific legislation to ensure women were taken care of here in Ireland.
@Tom Molloy: Voting yes does not necessarily mean that you support abortion. It does mean that you do not support the Eighth amendment. In my own case I do not agree with abortion in general but I do think woman should have the right to choose. As a man I will never be able to understand pregnancy in the same way as a woman and it will never be my life, health or state of mind that will be compromised.
@Tom Molloy:
You do understand that the PLAC-led No side have had 35 years to offer tangible and sustainable options and propose legislation.
It was simply never in the cards in the first place, and still isn’t.
To top it off, all the No side produced in this campaign was obscenities and vile distortion of facts.
No wonder they lost, and properly at that.
@Irish “Design”:
You’re calling representation of reality a “clever tactic”.
Well, ok then, apparently it was clever to stick to the truth as opposed to lying through ones teeth to hammer home a vile message.
Fact is, there won’t be another referendum a generation to come.
Fact is, the No side has not offered any legislative sustainable alternatives in 35 years, and likely won’t do it for at least another 35.
Fact is, the Yes side appealed to empathy, care, common decency, equality, compassion.
Fact is, there were not only “hard case” stories, but the mere fact that over 3,000 Irish travel each year.
So yes, you might be right, presenting the truth and appealing to the good in people, seems to have been a “clever tactic”.
Or… just reality, as the rest of us like to call it.
@Irish “Design”: Agree, the yes side including (credit where credit is due) the government got their tactics spot on. They gambled a bit on assuming that many on the no side were against legislation for hard cases, which obviously would turn many undecided voters against the no side. I wonder what result would be returned if the question was “Do you support unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks?”
@Irish “Design”: Again here is the “No” side debating what is a “hard” case and what isnt..i dont believe that anyone should be allowed to play “judge and jury” with someone else body and life. You quote 1% of cases as being “hard” cases, the reality is every case is a “hard” case. It was the “No” side’s lack of understanding and compassion of this, coupled with their inability to propose any legislation or solution that cost them very dearly. The best the “No” side could do is resort to distorting facts and telling lies and shoving a disgusting poster and publicity campaign in everyone’s face! It was a landslide result for a reason and we can now move forward and look after our female population with dignity and compassion!!
@Adrian: I wonder if the question had been “Do you want to force women to be pregnant against her will?”
@Simon Connolly: Well said
@Deborah Behan: I suppose you’d have to add “continue to” to that. Look, I’m personally delighted with the outcome and that women will soon have a choice that be supported by this state. I really didn’t think I’d see this until another couple of decades in Ireland, so credit to the government and the yes side for finally making this happen.
@Irish “Design”:
What had the biggest influence on the voters who were undecided was the stories that couples told about their tragic cases of FFA, also rape and incest .
@Irish “Design”: That is not accurate. TMFR Ireland have been pushing for legislation for FFA for the last 6 years! Each time they got so far the Attorney General said it’s just not possible because of the constitution. The only way to legislate was if the 8th was repealed. And Varadaker & Harris both said if a No result happened then this issue would not be revisited for many years – not scaremongering but fact.
@nineteen: well the article was already amended twice by the thirteen and fourteenth amendments so it’s very convienient now to say “the 8th amendment can’t be amended to account for tragic cases”, when it was already amended twice.
It could have been amended. The reality is that those three tragic situations should have been included; and then we could have had an open and honest debate about abortion as contraception for personal convenience issues.
@Irish “Design”: do you honestly think women will take bleeding heavily, cramping terribly, and potentially ending up in hospital as a contraceptive choice over the bill or the bar? Do you know how expensive an abortion is? You genuinely believe that people will use abortion like we use condoms?
The only thing that the No side were any ‘good’ at ,was at the scaremongering..And looking back at the comments over the past few days,it looks like they’re still at it..
@Francis Mc Carthy: the truth hurts francis doesnt it. Pack women and children off to abortion clinics to dispose of the “problem” like familes did in the 50s sending them to mother and baby homes in Tuam etc. Thats the yes soloution …fools. Abortion clinics will dispose of their bodies with no respect or dignity afforded like they did in Tuam wheres the outrage . Wheres the COMPASSION there ??? Conraception prevents unwanted pregnancy not abortion . Politicans will not gain any support for this because it was supported by the disposable additude of the snowflake generation who only care for themselves…..me me me
@Jim Kenny: And contraception works every time, all the time, doesn’t it?
@Jim Kenny: you still don’t get it or even want to! Sad.
@Jim Kenny: it is one dimensional attitudes like yours that turned a lot of undecideds to yes. Thanks for that!!
@Jim Kenny: hahahahaha! Give it up mate. I know people over 60 years old who voted yes…the snowflake generation indeed :)
@Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: If a woman has sex she has to accept the risk she might get pregnant even with contraception.
@Steve1234: How dare Women have sex lives!!! The cheek of them!!!
@Steve1234:
If a man had sex and his girlfriend falls pregnant he should man up and take responsibility for her care.
@Jim Kenny:I know the truth,kiddo.And that is why I was a YES voter.
@Jim Kenny:
The snowflake generation, who only care for themselves…..me me me. Who have twice now managed to group together and work for others to make massive constitutional changes in this country. By landslides. This idea of snowflake really only applies to those who want to maintain a status quo other people don’t want. All the do is moan, whine and cry all the time.Your the snowflake mate.
@Jim Kenny: and it was people with your way of thinking that were trying to ever prevent us from having contraception in the first place, but now you use it as the fail safe to abortion….. UNREAL, and short memories.
These are just anecdotal…RTE Behaviour and Attitudes poll showed 80% of Yes and No voters had their mind made up fot the past 5 years! So actually it seems the campaign had little effect on vast majority.
@Sinead Mooney: it suits the media to suggest this was a dynamic issue. The result was decided a long time ago. Pity the no side didn’t realize this before their batshit antics. They thought they represented the silent majority but they were the noisy minority.
@Alan Carmody: I agree that the issue was decided for most years ago, but it was valuable political lesson for most people to witness the absolute calamity that was the over funded but under handed no campaign go down in flames.
@Larry Doyle:
The Posters were a total waste of money and had little effect. I was in Dublin the week before the Ref and I was staggered by the amount of posters on every pole. There were practically no posters in rural areas and it made no difference to the outcome. If anyone was not well informed about the debate on the Eight they must have been asleep or dead considering it was discussed on every radio, tv, programmer and social media non stop.
@Aine O Connor: Once the ban on advertising of Facebook and YouTube was announced there was a notable increase in postering as all that American money had to be spent somewhere. The massive numbers of no posters were, I feel, totally counterproductive. A referendum without Love Both, Save The Eighth, The iona institute trading as Lolek ltd, Rónán Mullen , Mattie McGrath, Cora Sherlock (?), Maria Steen, vandalism of mountains etc etc would have been a lot closer than the two to one victory that we saw on Saturday evening.
If you were undecided and only voted yes for the hard cases you have aided open abortion and the loss of approximately 17,000 healthy children a year unfortunately. Personally I would have liked to have seen a no vote with a call for more reasonable legislation. But Leo varadker ruled that out while campaigning. And I think it scared a lot of people into making a vote that they weren’t entirely comfortable with. I very much doubt the government are going to discuss how we’d like the legislation to be written at this point. Personally I think yes or no was a very poor choice of answers. You were essentially asked who’s life meant more to you, the mother’s or the childs.
@Jennie: the mother’s, 100%
@Jennie: I agree jennie. 3 lads in work voted yes and are now sorry they did because of the scene’s of celebration in dublin. It made them sick as abortion is nothing to celebrate. I believe they were only 2 winners from tye yes vote. FFA and the government. 17,000 less childrens allowences every year. Big savings for them
@Joe Mc: those savings will be spent making open abortion available free of charge to medical card holders. Absolutely no issue with necessary abortions being made free to the relevant groups. But free abortion to be covered by our taxes is too far for me personally.
@Jennie: abortion would be the cheaper option
@Joe Mc: our pesky wimmin will be aiming for the 20,000…
@Joe Mc: There is no other way of doing this without punishing women further that have been raped. Doesn’t matter what suggestions you make the only other “softer” method for no campaigners is for women to report a rape to get it aborted I don’t want the women in my life ever put through any of this but even more so be punished further if they were.
And the reality is there is a lot of HARD no’s that will never accept abortion no matter how extreme the situation is.
And a lot of the no campaigners are extreme in fact I think everyone one of the no campaigners on tv were extreme and even in the dying days of the election were saying it needed to be softer, but reality is no matter what government came to them with they would have been no.
@Joe Mc: Men never had to fight for body autonomy,that’s why women celebrated as for the first time full body autonomy was in reach after decades of fighting for that right.Nobody celebrates abortion,nobody!
@Nuala Mc Namara: Abortion is not bodily autonomy. The unborn is a distinct human being at early stage of development. Unfortunately the masses have been brain washed into thinking it is. The left had very cleverly shifted the focus from the real debate which is whether the unborn is human and instead labelled the No side as anti women and archaic. Yes the No side lost the debate but that’s due to poor communication. The facts do not change. Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent human being. Of course it’s terrible women with babies that are incompatible with life have to go to full term but the Government could have legislated for that. Let’s be honest that’s not enough after all who are we to tell a woman what to do with her body!
@Joe Mc: agree but i’d replace FFA with rape cases. FFA may be difficult but that’s no reason to speed up its death. Those stories didn’t win my vote.
@Jennie: Jennie, what are you on? Where’d you come up with the random figure of 17,000 abortions being facilitated because undecideds voted yes??
@Alan: Not about bodily autonomy, where is the pregnancy located exactly?
@Joe Mc: the women were celebrating freedom of speech the freedom to come out of the shadows and to be able to be here in Ireland without having to keep secrets. They weren’t celebrating abortion. Jeesus Christ what do you think women are? Look at the stats for murder and stop projecting male behaviours onto women.
@Alan: Your comment is an example why the No campaign didn’t impact on voters,there is no sence whatsoever of the decades women have had to fight re bodily autonomy and the right to make decisions over their own bodies.There is no sence of the extremely difficult hardbreaking circumstances of some women where every day they make difficult choices.It isn’t a “left” issue difficult circumstances can affect women from all walks of life and each woman should be able to make their own choices about their own bodies.
@Jennie:
You’ve had 35 years to call for legislation, and you thought of that first now. How convenient.
@Jennie: your proposal for more reasonable legislation, what would that have covered? Rape cases, FFA, Incest??? And how would you have legislated for these?
The Journal should give it a break, it’s over, the vote took place…….
12 weeks unrestricted for me was too much thats why i voted no,the hard cases i considered but taking into account these scenerios one healthy baby being aborted is to much and cant be justified, my heart goes out to anyone going through a crisis pregnancy but there are other options,in my view certain woman are now being told by all of us if you have been irresponsible and got pregnant when u didnt want to its okay you dont have to take responsibility for your actions,the baby will pay the ultimate price and thats not compassion its cruelty in its purest form,i feel sad for the path this country has decided to go down,we wont pay for this innocent healthy babies will,its the only time in my life i have felt ashamed of my country but it is what it is,you have to move on.
@Sean Beinead: they would be taking abortion pills from the internet anyway and who knows what poison is in them – putting their lives at risk better to be doing this under supervision.
@Sean Beinead: again no mention of the men who made the woman pregnant they get a big let off!!! They get to chose what life they have. The state says they should give a maximum of €250 per month allowance. That’s FA!!! Rent, food, clothes, electricity, childcare??? €250? But you got to punish those women for having sex with someone else but you eh? Amirite?
@Marcia Craine: thats their choice ,isnt that what you wanted,paedophiles access photos on the internet should we help them out too ?
@Deborah Behan: men should not be let off the hook ur right and i never said they should but the woman is the one with all the choice they wanted now but im glad your clear about the choices although adoption is an option you chose to forget , many people have done so.
Trust politicians ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
@Derek Poutch: trust women.
I think Ronan Mullen was one of the biggest factors in the Yes vote and not forgetting the many No side canvassers who called to our door and would give the Saudis or ISIS a bad name. ..unhinged fruitcakes is the most charitable thing I could say about them. That’s what happens when you’re desperate for volunteers
Thanks you NO side for your comments. The sting of a dying wasp.
@Ian Phillip Creaner: ian you should look at other nations with abortion and you’ll realise any movements for or against abortion dont dissapear after abortion is brought in or not thats what keeps them going on to fight, a little bit of a childish comment to TBF
@Sean Beinead: Only in America, no other country that introduced abortion has whackjob extremists campaigning against women’s rights. These evangelical Christians are already plotting to topple to the democratic will of the Irish people.
@John McQuaid: you should take your head out of the sand if you think people voted NO for religious reasons,good job alienating some of the yes voters , no is talking about extremists except you.
@Sean Beinead: no one
@Sean Beinead: So all the evangelicals who funded a lot of No Campaigns over here were not doing it for religious reasons?
Shoes on the other foot now, you can moan for 35 years and everytime you request a politician to go to the public with this issue they run away and hide from it. Nice feeling ain’t it?
@Sean Beinead: Thankfully Catholicism is dying in Ireland. Next up, the Blasphemy Referendum
@Andrew Kavanagh: of course some did vote NO because of religious beliefs but if you wanna think most did because of religious beliefs then your mistaken look at the amount of yes votes you think they were all atheist,you need to wake up and smell the coffee,much much more to this than religion , although alot of you seem fixated with it for some reason.
@Andrew Kavanagh: im all for it TBH.
@John McQuaid: John, reading the comments here, whack jobs is the only word for them.
@Sean Beinead: I would imagine there is Catholics, Muslims , Jews, Zoroaster etc… who voted both yes and no.
But Religion has a lot to do with why we repealed over the weekend. (It’s the reason why the 8th was there in the first place)Not only for women to have bodily autonomy but to stop the likes of the Catholic Church (AKA a bunch of old pedos) telling them what to do with their own body.
Huge sections of the no campaign were funded by religious orders, also noticed the lack of priests this time round and instead replaced with “institute experts” because even the no campaign knew of the toxicity of the church they tried to downplay it.
Glad you’re on-board for the Blasphemy referendum, I am sure this campaign will be a bit more benign for all parties involved!
@Andrew Kavanagh: anyone including their dog knows the origins of the eight and how it came about but peoples votes for the most were not dictated by religion yes or no thats obvious ,the RCC knew better than to push their heads above the pulpet excuse the pun, lets be honest pro and anti campaigns were funded by vested interest groups some even outside ireland ,this referendum campaign was always going to be toxic.
@Sean Beinead: I think it could be better to say that Religion TRIED to dictate and failed, a sign of the times which is good. Again I am trying to point out it’s lack of influence compared to 3 decades ago and how Ireland has become better without it’s archaic influence
I enjoyed the pulpit pun btw :)
@Andrew Kavanagh: well i know we agree some changes have been better mainly the lack of religious influence in our state and lives hopefully we dont change one religion for another though.
@Sean Beinead: Let’s change one to NONE :)
@Andrew Kavanagh: agreed .
The long and the short of it is that many people who would have been born will now be aborted ie will be killed. I mourn this fact. Politicians certainly cannot be trusted they flip flop with rge latest opinion poll.
@Jeremy DeChad: that’s BS and you know it!! I had a crisis pregnancy and was given the choice and I made mine. She’s 21. That’s not how it works.
@Deborah Behan: help me understand how it is BS. Are you saying that overall the 8th did not save lives, if that is what you are saying please produce evidence. Congrats on your 21 year old I am sure many people envy your decision not to take the easier option 21 years ago.
@Jeremy DeChad: You are the type of person that believes that the only thing that stops people from murdering each other are the laws against it. The 8th merely moved abortions across the Irish Sea.
@Jeremy DeChad: Here’s an idea vote for a politician that meets your requirements if they flip on it vote someone else the next time politicians will soon learn not to be flipping on election promises.
But fact of the matter is nearly 70% voted yes.
That is a pretty resounding margin. Less people voted no than who voted to put it in, in the first place.
Nearly 2/3 the people voted to repeal than voted it in the first place.
If the 8th was doing such a good job for women living in Ireland why did so many people want to repeal it.
@Larry Doyle: thanks for telling me what kind of person I am and the purpose of the law. The 8th had the effect of reducing the abortion rate because it demonstrated respect for unborn life. We will wait and see the effect on the abortion rate now that the 8th has been repealed. If consistent with the UK i would expect a substantial increase in the rate.
@Celtic_Horizon: i agree with some of what you say but re politicians, our electoral system does not really allow us to vote on single issues. The constitution is the only place where we had any direct control and one might say the politicians tricked us into giving up that control.
@Jeremy DeChad: Twenty three years after the people of Ireland vote to remove the ban on divorce the rate of divorce is a fraction of what it is across the Irish Sea. This is Ireland not England, I think you should have a little more faith in Irish people and a little less faith in your ability to see into the future.
@Larry Doyle: agree re the rate of divorce but the Irish divorce law is extremely restrictive, that would probably account for the difference. I hope you are right re abortion.
I was at a communion on Saturday and it was hilarious to watch people that openly called out they voted yes queue up and receive communion with their children. Like why bother, it’s so hypocritical. These are the same people that bad mouth the church all the time and class themselves as atheists when it suits them but they still insist on church weddings aswell. It’s actually pathetic when you think about it.
@Rambon: you think all the no people have never used contraception or never masturbated? If you want to be critical of yes people keeping their faith then note the other hypocrites too. If people followed the church none of the IVF children would be born either
@Kal Ipers: They are not keeping their faith, if they were it wouldn’t be so bad. These people have no faith. They only pop along for their wedding, their child’s communion etc etc. And just try to tell them no. They are the ultimate hypocrites and a reflection of our society these days.
@Rambon: I was at a wedding last year and got Communion for the first time in 15 years, I’m an atheist but I was hungry and couldn’t wait until the meal at the hotel later that day.
@John McQuaid: Well done John, I hope the wedding was a gud un mate.
@Rambon: ultimate hypocrites? They are no different to those who go everyday but don’t fall the rules.
@Rambon: what about all the priests that have girlfriends or boyfriends or molest children and then give communion on a Sunday ?
@Marcia Craine: Yeah your right Marcia, there is no arguing with that point alright. Well made.
@Rambon: man makes a joke about your religion and it’s all “mate” woman makes a serious, hard thought out, horrible decision concerning the rest of her life and it’s “get her” “force her to remain pregnant against her will”. Yep that absolutely shows what YOUR religion represents.
@Deborah Behan: I made a valid point is all Deborah. And it’s not my religion, I dont go to Mass and I never will. I was at church for a friend’s communion and I was observing the hilarious double standards from the people of Ireland.
@Rambon: You just told us you were at mass! Hilarious double standard? The true double standard is a church that preaches about all life being sacred when they murder actual babies and sold them. You have a messed up view of true hypocrities
@Kal Ipers: when did the church murder anyone in recent history. I suppose you are referring to Tuam. If so I suggest you come up with the evidence and report it to the gardai.
Kal Ipers: Yeah I was at mass, but I wasn’t there to partake in any ceremony unlike the vast majority of hypocrites in this country do when it suits them. Sending their children to Catholic schools etc and putting them through the Catholic ceremonies. Like why are they doing that? Just turn your back on the church if that’s what you want to do, but stop using them when it suits you. Ha ‘Their paed os, their rap ists, they murder babies, but let’s get married in a chapel and put a nice dress / suit on’ ha
@Jeremy DeChad: No need to go to the law. The church certainly sold children and this is known. They certainly disposed of bodies and didn’t keep records. The bodies found didn’t die of natural causes. Somebody killed them and/or let them die. That is recent history. In Africa the church still goes on about contraception that has resulted in death due to HIV. They are not on any moral high ground and are hypocrites much worse than somebody faking religion to get into school or have a social event in a traditional way.
@Kal Ipers: ok well I dont believe what you say but even if you were right you cannot tar everyone with the same brush and you have provided absolutely no proof that anyone was killed or murdered just wild speculation. You are throwing around accusations with wild abandon.
@Jeremy DeChad: What don’t you believe? They sold the babies? That deaths weren’t recorded completely? Deaths were attributes to not being fed? It is all on the record as fact.
Tarring the organisation that was running the homes is not tarring everyone. When that organisation tells us all life is precious it shows it as hypocritical. Are you going to ignore the other things the church did here? To not believe it happened is just denying reality, all well known.
@Kal Ipers: where were the parents and friends and relatives of the “fallen” women and babies of Tuam. The survivors have told of the contempt that they received from the entire community eg at school. In effect the nuns far from murdering the kids were the only ones who gave a damn. They were also totally untrained and not necessarily suited to look after other peoples children. Re sale of kids i would say the funds were a contribution to the maintenance of the orphanage. The kids who went were very lucky to get a new life and often did very well, much better than what is now on offer ie being aborted.
@Jeremy DeChad: The social outcasting was encouraged by the church from the alter. The nuns giving a damn managed to have a huge mortality rate way way above the natural levels of the time. Nuns and priests were by far more educated than the majority of the population and had medical training. You can claim the money was used by the nuns for the orphanages but they were selling them. There is no ifs, ands or buts they did this and it is well documented. They also ran laundries for profit with slave labour. We do have a Magdelin redress scheme specifically because this is known. Being starved to death by nuns is not a better life than abortion and isn’t a better life. The nuns caused these deaths and they are still working on the investigation
@Kal Ipers: Nuns and priests were educated in theology not in general. Mortality rates – what do you expect these kids and their “fallen” mothers had been rejected by their families and society. The nun to baby ratio was so low that you could not expect the nun to nurse a sick baby back to health. The nuns tried their best and at least provided shelter. Please provide evidence that these kids were sold, as that is totally illegal are you sure that the adoptive parents did not give a contribution to the running of the orphanage. I suggest you keep an open mind about these matters rather than throwing a whole load of unfounded allegations around. I realise you probably have some kind of agenda but you have absolutely no basis in fact.
@Jeremy DeChad: See the latest news? Illegal adoptions. I don’t have an agenda I am pointing out the known facts. Nuns were nurses and ran many hospitals. Not sure why you think the were clueless non medically trained people. Nurses to this day use titles from religious orders.
They didn’t try their best and let children die. You really need to read up on the subject. These are not unfounded claims
The 1983 referendum pitted the rights of the unborn against the mother’s rights… and this created, perhaps unintentionally, an imbalance and actually weighted the law in favour of the unborn in the ‘hard cases’… If we had never had the insertion into the constitution, we could have found the humane and compassionate answer to such tragic cases already. Now with this result, here’s hoping…
Ye votes yes and now have to live with what that yes vote brings.
Most abortions are not due to hard cases. It’s a free for all.
@Lily: a free for all women to decide what they want. The vast majority will continue their pregnancies. Unfortunately some will need an abortion. You, however, will have no say. Neither will I. As it should be.
@Lily: Would a woman being physically/sexually abused be a “hard case” ? Asking for a friend..
@Francis Mc Carthy: you have a friend??
@Deborah Behan: No not need, but want an abortion.
Ive has my say I voted no. That’s as much as I can do, now I can sit back and watch all those that voted yes that did it only for the hard cases coil in horror as abortion sky rockets throughout the country.
2 years and there will be easily 10k abortions a year. Less than 500 would probably be deemed hard cases.
The figures in a couple of years time will be interesting. We can also see where we fall with the rest of the world. I would be guessing we will have one of the highest rates, Harris can get into the top 10, it will be on abortion rates. There’s something that be proud of Harris in this modern world.
@Francis Mc Carthy: I’m alive today because my mother didn’t abort me. She was in an abusive relationship and we get on great. I’m her only daughter. I would not refer to her being pregnant with me as a hard case. I’m the light of her life, as are my kids.
I do think the No side would have been better if they had someone saying they would favour abortion in some cases. Instead, all of them seemed against abortion in every single scenario.
They all seemed quite extreme as a result which in turn probably alienated a lot of potential voters,
@TradingDuck: they offered zero solutions but to condemn the women. They have no solutions.
@Deborah Behan: zero solutions offered to real world problems, instead just pious Bible bashing absolutisim, as demonstrated on this thread.
@paddlingAlong: Absolutely
@TradingDuck: well i say umpteen suggestions that the hard cases should be dealt with. The govt. in effect vetoed the middle ground by saying there would be no second referendum. We were forced to make a choice between retaining the status quo and a liberal abortion regime.
@paddlingAlong: I said they should legislatate for hard cases. I also said I’ve never been baptized. So both those points are blatant mistruths.
Voted ‘Yes’ ? You voted to kill innocent children. Live with your choice.
You will be responsible for the death of innocent children. You enabled this cull.
@raymond grehan: innocent children were being sectioned against their will..fixed it for yah
@Francis Mc Carthy: What are you talking about?
@raymond grehan: the time for the hysterical language is over. We are where we are, the people have spoken.
@DJ François: Which hysterical language are you talking about DJ? Please point it out?
@raymond grehan: I assume he’s talking about this hysterical language:
“You voted to kill innocent children. Live with your choice.
You will be responsible for the death of innocent children. You enabled this cull.”
@raymond grehan: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/girl-sectioned-after-psychiatrist-ruled-out-abortion-1.3116111
Disgusting
@Chris Judge: Which bits are hysterical ? Kill? nope. You can call it termination or some other word it you like…would you prefer ‘extinguish the life’? Baby ? this is what mothers call their infant the first time they see on a scan?
Innocent? what other word would you use here?
Cull? :
1 : to select from a group : choose
culled the best passages from the poet’s work
Damaged fruits are culled before the produce is shipped.
2 : to reduce or control the size of (something, such as a herd) by removal (as by hunting) of especially weaker animals; also : to hunt or kill (animals) as a means of population control
The town issued hunting licenses in order to cull the deer population.
Easy access to abortion will increase number of them maybe with some exceptions in specific minorities living in Ireland
@artur filip: no it won’t.
@Deborah Behan: Yes it will, always happens
Many fervent YES voters in my family were sickened by the scenes of “celebration” over the introduction of abortion. The choice was too binary, many Yes voters were bounced into it since the alternative seemed to be the “status quo”, but the scenes of euphoria over the removal of the 8th amendment did seem to strike a discordant note for many many people who had indeed themselves voted Yes.
@SeanGabriel1453: Of course they were.
The government engineered a Yes outcome with the setting up of the Citizen’s Assembly which was biased in favour of Yes right from the outcome. It was so loaded no other outcome was possible.
Now they’re trying desperately to cover their tracks by presenting it as having been won by factual argument.
Hilarious really.
Fine Gael will milk this for all its worth.
I think a lot of yes supporters found themselves able to make an important stance because of hard cases. When agreeing with abortion under a hard case premise, the principal of “the rights of the woman cannot be overruled by the rights of the unborn, the burden just wouldn’t be fair”. This as a sentiment could be expanded to cover pre 12 weeks.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: I was a no voter and why I couldn’t vote yes was the unrestricted. People say it won’t happen but if people are honest about it it will eventually come in. No winners I’m afraid but how could people trust the government.
@David Clarke: How could people trust the NO campaigners who wouldn’t listen for 35 years?
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: people’s overwhelming reason to vote Yes was to give women bodily autonomy. To say, I don’t want to make this decision for you it should be you making this decision. And I don’t want to make this decision for anyone else. So I voted Yes.
@Deborah Behan: which yes camp will you support when the dust settles and the splits begin. Lots of different shades of yes some want the hard cases and some want unrestricted.
@Andrew Kavanagh: true but what your going to see now is splits in the yes side. You have what they are calling soft yes and hard yes and everything in between. So I think a lot of tds on the yes side will excepted some parts of the legislation and disagree with others. Look at Coveney if he’s to be believed he’ll want the most restricted rules and I’m sure there are other in his party the same. Could be wrong
@David Clarke: Well even if you don’t trust politicians at least this issue is being legislated on and not kept in the dark. I am not a fan of FG / FG / lab and the usual but I am much happier to see them take on this issue and try legislate for it rather than a religious institution not even allowing critique, let alone public debate or legislation for this issue.
And well yeah, of course there are going to be differing views on what can be legislated on, that’s why it’s in parliament where it can be debated on so I don’t understand your point… practically every piece of legislation has been the same… so you are kinda making moot points there.
It seems you are grasping at straws from the ashes of your loss, understandable you are not happy but stop trying to turn this into something it won’t be… turning your logic on it’s head that would mean it would be the same for the NO voters…
Was so sick of reading the No side crap up to last week and their still at it. Move on it was repealed. So instead of being bitter about it be part of the solution no the problem
@Nucky: reading this page, I have a feeling that they will always be part of the problem.
@Nucky: Can’t give up when thousands are going to die thanks to the 2/3 of Irish people who voted this evil act in
This point is interesting as above
“again no mention of the men who made the woman pregnant they get a big let off!!! They get to chose what life they have. The state says they should give a maximum of €250 per month allowance. ”
Are men to have equal rights in this legislation e.g. if a man feels suicidal and his life is in danger due to an unwanted pregnancy, will he be allowed have his unborn child aborted. Seems only fair and equitable but I’ve not heard much mention of it.
@G: the man is more likely to kill the pregnant woman, than to kill himself, in your (slightly unpleasant, but very interesting) hypothetical example -( my comment is Toxic ) (using brackets reduces toxicity)
Just when you thought it was only hypothetical…
The bit that shocked me was 3% of people who voted no did so because of the Savita case.. Now if anyone can explain the rationale behind that I’d be grateful.
Kal Ipers: Yeah I was at mass, but I wasn’t there to partake in any ceremony unlike the vast majority of hypocrites in this country do when it suits them. Sending their children to Catholic schools etc and putting them through the Catholic ceremonies. Like why are they doing that? Just turn your back on the church if that’s what you want to do, but stop using them when it suits you. Ha , they murder babies, but let’s get married in a chapel and put a nice dress / suit on
Still not publishing the spoiled votes,and giving a real breakdown of the vote,strange to say the least
It wasn’t the Undecided that were swayed by various points made during the campaign which made the difference, and also accounted for the missing 23% of votes the so called pro life campaign were certain they had.
It was the teenage and twenty something children of the so called pro life campaigners, who instead of doing what their parents were certain the would do, did what they thought was right themselves and not because they were uninformed on the subject, quite the opposite.
@Kal Ipers: nuns ran hospitals extremely well. The hospitals have not been run nearly as well since the nuns in effect ceased to exist. Why would you think therefore that they were murdering and selling infants in Tuam. I would not even trust a govt enquiry because the agenda would be the usual – lets not contest this lets pay up and move on. You saying that they sold babies is me saying that the new parents were making a financial contribution. You saying that they murdered babies is me saying that a child in one of those places with loads of other babies all infecting each other without normal family supports is much more susceptible to illness and death. Ultimately you chose to believe the worst about the church and nuns etc. There is no reliable evidence anyway and never will be. The end.
have your say