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THE LEADERS IN the battle for and against Scottish independence clashed in a heated live television debate tonight, six weeks ahead of a historic referendum on whether Scotland should leave the United Kingdom.
First Minister Alex Salmond, leader of the pro-independence Scottish National Party (SNP), went head-to-head for the first time with Alistair Darling, a fellow Scot and leader of the “Better Together” campaign.
Darling, who was Britain’s finance minister during the 2008 economic crisis, pressed the SNP leader early on his crucial claim that an independent Scotland would continue to use the pound sterling — something London says will not be possible.
Salmond insisted this would not be a problem, and hit back by asking Darling repeatedly whether he believed Scotland could successfully be an independent country, a question his opponent dodged.
Their exchanges became increasingly heated, and at one point Salmond was accused by an audience member of being “snide” and giving a worrying impression of what an independent Scotland would be like.
Members of the public audience heckled, booed and cheered the two men throughout, prompting the moderator to ask them to show respect and allow the politicians to be heard.
Both campaigns had said the debate could be a turning point in the campaign for the 18 September referendum, when four million Scots will vote on their future.
But in the end neither side delivered a knock-out blow.
The pro-independence “Yes” campaign in particular had seen the encounter as a vital opportunity to use Salmond’s talent for debating to close a stubborn gap in opinion polls.
A poll tracker by the Financial Times newspaper currently puts the Yes vote at 36%, 10 points behind those who would vote No to independence. Some 16% remain undecided.
There were a few moments of levity, sparked by Salmond’s complaint that for much of his life, Scotland had voted for left-of-centre parties but received a Conservative government.
The SNP leader quipped that there were more pandas in Edinburgh Zoo (two) than Scottish Tories in the House of Commons in London (one).
Darling responded by noting that he was Scottish but did not vote for the SNP. “I didn’t vote for him but I’m stuck with him,” he quipped.
‘Opportunity of a lifetime’
In his opening speech, Salmond argued that Scottish people should be able to decide their own future, a dream that could not be achieved under the current system of devolution.
“My case this evening is this: no one, no one will do a better job of running Scotland than the people who live and work in this country,” he said.
On 18 September we have the opportunity of a lifetime. We should seize that opportunity with both hands.
But Darling warned of the risks of going it alone and argued that Scotland would pay too high a price to leave the union, saying:
Remember this — if we decide to leave there is no going back, there is no second chance.
Ahead of the debate, the leaders of Britain’s three main parties vowed to hand over more powers to Scotland’s devolved government if voters decide to stay in the 307-year-long union with England.
Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron, opposition Labour leader Ed Miliband and Liberal Democrat chief Nick Clegg, the deputy prime minister, signed a joint declaration that would give Edinburgh more tax-raising control.
Darling said that with these new powers Scotland could have the “best of both worlds” — more control and the support of a strong United Kingdom.
However, one of the key players in the campaign for Scottish devolution in the late 1990s, retired clergyman Kenyon Wright, branded the promise of new powers a “desperate bribe”.
Scotland currently looks after its own education, health, environment and justice, but the UK parliament in London still decides defence and foreign policy.
The debate was not shown on television in England, but Scottish broadcaster STV made it available worldwide online. However, many viewers complained that the website crashed continually.
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I would love England to have Independence. Why is it only Scotlands vote. The English are the least pro Union of them all. Hopefully Scotland will vote for Independence and the break up begins.
but the queenship would loose title to Balmoral and the oilfields of Scotland ! Can’t have that darling and it the home of Queen Vic. and John Brown !…l.o.l.
Dont be silly. Balmoral is the Queens private residence. She owns it. If Scotland become independent she will still own it. As for the oilfields Scotland will need them to fund themselves and pay back its national debt.
No she won’t – she inherited it with her royal title – no royal title no title on,land -To the Victor the spoils Bobby !
Unless she wants to transfer it in a private capacity to Harry and thus break the line of succession !
Don’t be silly!!!
The Queen privately owns two properties, Balmoral Castle and Sandringham House both of which are not publicly funded. Both are paid for by the Queen. Look it up, educate yourself. Even if Scotland did vote for Independence, the Queen will remain head of State!!
No she won’t …it’s called the slippery slope !
And poor ould Lizzie is planking it because she’s down to her last million !
I’d say Michael D. has more saved that her and he’s a socialist !
Dermot, you really are an ignorant clown. Nobody in Scotland is suggesting that an independent state would not retain the monarchy, so even your misinformed musings about the relationship between private property and title don’t even come into it.
That’s one debt that’s well worth paying, if it means Scotland gets it’s independence , it would be a good thing IMO ,
Salmond is poor but he gained two percent this week. Up to 42% . The currency issue is what uk has as trump card. Be amazing if they got independence it will get the north our country thinking to
Im not sure NI could afford to go it alone. They are massively propped up by the UK Govt.
At least £10 billion.
Plus there is the small matter of them not wanting to go it alone. They fought tooth and nail to remain part of the UK for 30 years.
NI couldn’t make it on its own. Forty-six percent are employed in provision of State services, plus the €12,000,000,000 yearly subvention from English tax payers. If these issues were being discussed here in the south, I think any aspirations of reintegration of the territory may be placed even further back in the national psyche!
You can put your mind at ease,it aint going to happen, period,as for NI going it alone thats even more remote, they would first have to find the 15 billion STG it costs the british to run the statelet,an impossible task for a place still highly dependent on government jobs for employment.
Cian if the government in London did not have Scottish Oilfields then they wouldn’t be able to subsidise anything !
But a united Ireland would attract huge investment according to most economists
Dermo official figures from the UK say Scotland spends £62 billion a year and generates £45 billion. That’s an annual subsidy from the English taxpayer of £17 billion. Then you have the £10 billion we give to NI each year to keep going. The so called Union costs the english taxpayer most. We would be better off out of it.
Just like Gaza it’s incredible that the Irish government has said nothing on this subject – not even stating their support of Scotland should it decide to become independent.
Don’t know why people are red thumbing Jason whatever your view you can’t deny that the majority up north are unionists
Bobby – then why are you so eager to hold onto it so ?
Now there’sa question for official figures – the gold is it Bobby ?
Its best the Irish government say nothing, it will make those undecided vote NO.
Im not!!!
Bobby ????
Yeh Scotland you go, get your independence to be controlled by the EU.
Dermot I think most British taxpayers would cut the North loose in a heartbeat!
Bobby as far as i know scotish oil is not included in scotlands income.
Clif i live in the north and you are miss informed a chara.there are two main comunity brackets in the six, PUL and RN. while protestantism sits at around 51% that does not mean 51% of the population supports the union there are also catholics that support the union. people can bring up polls from different areas until the cows come home, but we will not and can not know the democratic wishes of the people until we hold a boarder poll. 26+6=1 nation.
Not the full truth about £10bl.
The figures that this is worked out does not take into consideration money on vat and tax paid by northern companies directly to uk exchequer via London headquarters. For example asda, tesco, sainsburys in the north all pay vat in London and is not deducted from the norths “£10bl bill”. This is replicated by dozens of other companies and subsidiaries.
The £10bl fig is grossly exaggerated.
Cliff it’s not a majority up north like in the past. I believe it’s more like 45% nationalist and 51% unionist, with other few per cent been foreigners who I believe would be on nationalist side sue to the racist attacks on foreigners in east Belfast n leaders like Peter Robinson causing tensions.
I believe Ireland’s best chance in a referendum will be when our economy rises hopefully again one day. I know lots of unionist born people that av no problem with united Ireland as long as they don’t end up poorer because of it
You actually think 45% are in favour of a united ireland http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#/image/File:Northern_Ireland_Life_and_Times_Survey_constitutional_preference.png
Why does every single survey return the same result a clear unionist majority. We can’t ignore the facts it’s the reality
What about the moc boarder poll in armagh and louth clif. The only thing that matters is the democratic vote everything else is assumtions end of.
who said we were going it alone?
All william Wallace this and I hate england that. Then you actually give them a vote something countless other countries gave up thousands of men for and they say no. If I ever hear a scot mention wallace again all I will do is laugh. He would b3 turning in his grave if he had one
FREEDOM!
I can’t see the UK letting Scotland fail of they go their own way. In the end day to day life will continue as normal there and changes will happen incrementally.
Why do you assume Scotland would fail?
There is no way Scotland would fail. They are to economics what we are to literature.
That’s what I am saying. This doomsday stuff if just being created by the UK. There is no way in reality that this would happen and they would exit completely intact.
Literally nobody on the No side has said Scotland would fail. They would just be poorer for it.
The rUK would be the continuing state should would retain the rights and obligations of the existing state. Scotland would need to start essentially from scratch.
It’s unlikely the Bank of England would share the pound with Scotland since they would have to bail out RBS etc if anything went wrong. The only way they could do that would be if Westminster retained enough control of Scottish finances to feel secure but that’s not really independence really. Either way it’s unlikely the big financial sector in Edinburgh stays put, they will move to London. Scotland could join the Euro or have it’s own currency. Neither is terrible, neither it very attractive either and Scottish voters don’t like it.
Scotland is a rich country but it doesn’t have a borrowing history, much liquidity or a great financial outlook. It would pay around 100 basis points more than the UK to borrow.
The real issue is oil and the that the SNP oil figures don’t add up. They are much higher than the industry expectations but that’s not such a big deal because who really knows.
The issue is the tax income from oil they are predicting. The North sea is an old basin, the oil is hard to extract and in smaller and smaller pockets. They are predicting higher output than the industry and higher tax revenue. You can’t really have both. The only way to get more out of old fields to invest heavily in them and use new technology. Capital investment can be offset against profits so you don’t pay so much tax.
The SNP is spinning a yarn. Plus the population is old and unhealthy which makes for expensive social welfare. Plus all the other costs of setting up the state. New army, airforce? Treasury?
Lots of negatives there David, but considering that Scotland already pays more to Westminster than it gets back in return, together with the cost of over one billion pounds each year going towards UK defence. Scotland already has a very strong whiskey and tourism industry which pulls in a good revenue. The argument about Scotland being to small is also nonsense given that Norway is smaller population and has built up strong financial reserves off the back of oil and gas. Whats to say that Scotland couldn’t do the same.
There’s no way Scotland would be allowed to retain the use of the £.
From day 1 Westminster was completely opposed to the introduction of the € and in fairness to them they set out precisely the reasons they felt that the concept of a shared currency was a bad idea and the problems that would be caused by conflicting interests in its member states.
Time has proven them right and we in Ireland should know this only too well as we were the ones forced to wear the handcuffs when Westminster’s predictions came true. The € teetered on the brink in 2012/13 and only survived by the skin of its teeth. It may well fall yet.
Scotland will keep the pound as it on the NE of England’s interests who are very dependent on Scotland. The UK would be at ab disadvantage and if they were going to take it away then why have they not given a straight answer about the pound or not.
On the wider debate I think that they wont pass the vote however if they didn’t rush into it and had it a few years lather I think it would be passed.
They hardly rushed into it Ronan – the wheels have been in motion since late 2011 and it had been discussed for several years prior to this.
This is the kind of extended public debate and referendum that should have taken place in East Ukraine and Crimea.
Around 3 years and yet there is little clarity on big issues. Most Scots if voting with their heart would go free however with their head they would stay or at least thats the view from my Scottish friend. Had the Yes campaign being handled better they would be way ahead in the polls and not behind.
Totally agree that for many voters their hearts will say yes but their heads will say no, but I don’t think we can say that’s due to a poor “yes” campaign. If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle and all that…
Sure whiskey and tourism but that’s taken account of and the outlook isn’t great. Scotland doesn’t pay more than it gets and the oil is honestly running out.
Plus Dundee is a great life sciences Centre but they lose access to EU funding during the negotiations over Scotland and the EU.
Scotland would need heft tax increases after independence. It’s doable but expensive.
If I were a Scot, I would be seriously concerned about joining the EU as a small nation after seeing the direction it has taken over the past few years. I think they could enjoy great success as a non EU member with trading agreements similar to Norway and Switzerland.
The Spaniards have said they will veto Scotland joining. This is to prevent Catalonia pushing on with its independence agenda.
Spain has said nothing of the sort.
If they can achieve peacefully what it too us 800 years (well most of our country anyway) then fair play to them.
Very true but when the Irish were looking for independence they didn’t concern themselves with issues like currency and the EU. The Scots will very likely talk themselves out of becoming independent because they are afraid that without a currency deal coming from Westminster they might not have enough cash to pay their civil servants. It seems like a missed opportunity if they say No, but whats the value of independence these days when the EU are in control.
If Scotland votes no they will be governed indefinitely by a conservative dominated English agenda increasingly likely to drag Scotland out of the EU
I would like Scotland to leave. And Liberté, why exactly would it be in our interest?
@Ryan
As an independent country, with an educated English speaking population in the EU, they would be our main competitor for foreign direct investment.
I’d have thought they were already in a position to compete with us for foreign investment
Well, the markets are unsure as to whether the UK will leave the EU. Scotland has always been more pro-Europe than England.
There are plenty of other issues too besides currency, like EU membership and who gets the money from North Sea the oil and gas. There are also issues over agriculture and fishing rights now that the EU has control.
The independence lobby need to get answers about currency and the EU before they can secure a ‘Yes’ vote on Sept 18th.
If Scotland vote for independence they automatically get their fishing rights back !
Did a Trinity professor say that Scotland’s membership would be guaranteed? Not sure of the basis for it though.
Countries like Spain would be likely to block Scotland from joining the EU in order to prevent their own separatists from gaining support
Spain has said they will block Scotland rejoining. What if Belgium decide to split in two. Will they be blocked too.
the E.U. in its current form is breaking up Bobby because in its current form it is not working except for a minority and their loyal servants – you can see that can’t you !
I wish the Scots well whatever decision they arrive at; but it would be in Ireland’s interest for Scotland to remain part of the UK.
As a Scot living here in Dublin if I had a vote I would vote YES. With regard to the Queen & her estates in Scotland she would have to pay taxes to the Scottish government and I don’t think she would be amused. Revenue would come in the form of oil and water. Every summer tankers full of Scottish water go down to English reservoirs as theirs have gone dry. The oil situation all know about it. The currency question is huge and I think sterling won ‘t be available but kroner may be. Scotland has had links to Scandanavian countries before. Defence-Scotland has its own regiments. If it goes through,I agree that Wales & Northern Ireland may follow. I’ll be saying a huge prayer on the 18th of September.
Scotland is similar to Ireland and I’m sure they would be quite able to go at it alone either with the pound or another currency. I’m more in favor of Scottish independence they deserve it and also I’d be interested what’s gonna happen to NI we’re all wondering what would happen to the Unionists. England and Wales will still have a union I’m sure but the question remains would westminster still be willing to prop up NI. It as an independent state would be doomed to fail in any event of a yes vote there would be some major changes in general.
They deserve it. What exactly does that mean?
Scotland benefited enormously from the union, it was a more imperial country than England by a fair stretch. I mean if with all the facts they want to leave they should. But they deserve it seems tremendously vague.
Or is this about annexing the north ?
True david a large majority of people are only interested in this to see what will happen up north in hope of a united ireland. They are forgetting that this won’t happen any time soon as the majority in NI want to remain in the union
The Scots will vote “No” then it really will be interesting if the UK gets an In/Out EU referendum. The way the EU is going and sentiment within Britain an “Out” result wouldn’t be unfeasible. The question then: what future NI and its neighbour south of the border?
I love Scots and they are distinctly culturally different from their English neighbours. Whilst ideally, they’d make a great nation, it probably makes sense economically at the moment for them to remain with the Union.
U may love scots but the majority of there country have no love for us
Just to prove you know what you are talking about, outline exactly how it makes sense to remain with the union? And without googling it :-)
U talk some shite
As a Scot any friends or family I speak to will be voting NO, that isn’t because they are Tory voters. Salmond tries to play on the emotions of nationalism which is bull – hand you ever met a Scot who is in any doubt about which country they belong to? He is all bluster & will not answer the financial questions -which will swing it for the NO campaign
Sure we all pool sovereignty anyway. In what way would independence really make life better for Scots.
Nonsense. He does not play to emotions on nationalism. The irony is that the No campaign does this through all its union flag waving “Great British” this and that. Modern scottish nationalism is a civic form based on defining ‘nationality’ as everyone who lives there – nothing else. The argument about your family or friends is spurious – all of mine will be voting Yes on 18th September. As for the ‘financial questions’ – they have been answered and a detailed multi-scenario report was published by the international fiscal commission set up by the Scottish government to tackle this very issue. They listed the various options for the currency and the one option that made best economic sense for both Scotland and rUK in the short to medium range is a currency union. However, the second option is to use the pound anyway or a currency pegged to it. No problems with any of these scenarios since it is an internationally exchangeable currency and no-one can stop anyone from using it. The reason why Alex Salmond doesn’t debate on the plan B or plan C is that he is going to be going into negotiations on these matters and has decided that plan A is the one to go for. Other pro-independence parties have other options and, the irony is that if Scotland does vote Yes, then the Scottish Labour party will also play a role, so he should ask them what their prefered option is should Yes win. What’s Darling’s Plan B??
sorry, the ‘nonsense’ was to tlc…sequence of posts out of kilter
It isn’t that he won’t answer the financial questions – it is up to Scotland’s people to make their claim for independence before talks can get underway over currency and EU membership. It is clear that neither Westminster or the EU parliament will enter discussion on matters until after the referendum result. It looks to me that the ‘No’ campaigners are counting their chickens on things which will only be decided after the referendum result is known. It is a pity that folks in Scotland can’t see the wood from the trees over what should be a ‘braveheart’ opportunity.
I can understand the financial fears that they have of going it alone but England would help them out in the early years. They wouldn’t let a new, independent Scotland wither and die with all the history between them. I think it’s a great chance for Scotland. You cannot be taken seriously for saying that nobody is in any doubt when speaking to a Scot what ‘country’ they are from. You either want your own sovereign, independent state or you don’t. If you turn it down then you haven’t any more claim to being a ‘country’ than Cornwall or Devon. Flower of Scotland me arse!
It ain’t going to happen and we all know it scots are staying we all know it’s a fact
Every time it’s mentioned in the media it’s reminiscent of the Santa news reports in the days leading up to Christmas. You know Santa’s not real but it’s fun to entertain silly notions for a moment.
From a group of about 20 people from back home I would put it at 14 yes, 3 no’s and 3 undecided. I have seen majority move towards a yes vote. Personally if I could vote, I would vote yes. Take the chance. I do wish people would stop thinking they are voting for Alex Salmond though, if it’s a yes, Scotland gets to vote on it’s government, most likely be Labour, and we can say goodbye to Tories and David Cameron and co for good.
Its simple. Show brave heart on the telly the nite before the vote. U will get a yes vote.
And stood against him,proud Edwards army and sent him homewards to think again.
In my view the best thing would be that Scotland remains in the Union. Both sides of Hadrian’s Wall need each other.
But if they decide Independence then all the best to our Scottish neighbours
Indenpendence?
EU dominance.
the funniest thing about those who will vote to stay in the Union is that they will be obeying the Pope and that just cracks me up !
The scots are too spineless to vote for independence. Pathetic really
The invention of time travel is more likely than independence.
we all travel through time Qwerty – it’s called life !
……and every year we all get a free trip around the Sun.
The question is who has the most to lose by this?? Someone has to be lying but politicians are so good at it it’s hard to know who.
If Scotland votes to leave the UK then it’s going to cost Ireland. All the petroleum products used and sold here comes from the North Sea. It is/would be Scotland’s main source of income, to enable them to float their economy they would have to increase the price, even beyond the international price. So all you shouting for Scottish independence, are you prepared to pay €2.50 – €3.50 a litre for petrol and diesel? Scottish independence could be the death knell for a lot of industries here.
Here’s no way an Independent Scotland would fail economically. I know Scotsmen that are so tight – they peel an orange in their pocket.
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