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AGRICULTURE MINISTER SIMON Coveney has said that the abolition of the Seanad will be a decision of the people and has hinted that if the upcoming referendum is defeated then it could be reformed.
Speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, the Minister said that the people of Ireland were being asked whether they want the government to abolish the upper house and insisted it was their choice.
He also indicated that rejection of the proposal to abolish the chamber could mean it is reformed, saying: “If the people in their wisdom decide that they want a reformed Seanad and they want to retain it well then of course it’s their right to make that decision.”
Independent senator Katherine Zappone, who was nominated to the Seanad by the Taoiseach two years ago, hit out at the proposals calling for reform rather than abolition and criticised planned changes to Dáil committees and other measures proposed by the government yesterday.
“All we have in terms of Dáil reform is a promise, a press release,” she said saying that although Fine Gael had abolition of the chamber in their election manifesto there were other aspects of the programme for government which have not come to fruition.
She also suggested that there did not need to be a rush to hold a referendum – which is set to take place in early October – saying: “What’s the rush? Why are we rushing to do this massive significant change of the governance of our country?”
Coveney insisted that the proposal to abolish the Seanad was being done in conjunction with changes to local government to give councils more autonomy and pointed out that a unicameral system – where a country has one parliamentary house instead of two – is common in countries of a similar size to Ireland.
“The government is putting this to the people. We are not abolishing the Seanad, we are asking the people of Ireland whether they want us to do that,” he said.
“So we are providing the ultimate public debate now in the form of a long public referendum campaign between now and early October when we can have a national discussion on this as we are starting today.”
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Jobs for the lads. Get rid of it.
And give enda and his boys a free run like the night of the sovereign debt legislation. Reform it
No don’t do that, government should supply a list for us to vote on instead of just appointing their mates,
There are interesting people out there who could do the role well, Brendan o Carroll comes to mind
I have to agree Leslie – the more thought that I have given to this the more I see The Dáil in future , by virtue of the dreaded Whip system , being enabled to deliver every ill prepared or otherwise , Bills , to be forced through, typically as they are now , with TD’s going through only the motions of listening or debating .
These defective Bills to be later taken on then in The High Court and The Supreme Court. A greater disaster in the making surely?
A properly reformed Senate , with properly democratically ( not University Degree only ) elected Senators , no Government Party or Taoiseach nominees and the possibility of giving Irish Citizens in the Six Counties and living abroad also, a vote in this area , as well as the Presidency too.
In fairness to the Senate presently , the number of corrections identified by the Senate, in virtually every Bill produced through the Dáil , is a matter of historical fact, where the current membership , major election flaws and all , at least seem to show genuine interest in passing “good” law.
I disagree with Eddie and Leslie. Previous attempts to reform Seanad have failed. Furthermore, most countries have one chamber; Ireland has two. The Seanad also costs taxpayers many millions of Euro every year in terms of expenses, salaries, allowances, and general expenditure that could be used elsewhere. Politically speaking, the Seanad is widely seen as a back-door for re-elections.
Downsize the government.
I completely agree with Lesley and Eddie. Abolishing it only gives further power to Enda Kenny to enlist his own pals…..reform it, other wise it’s another strike against our ever eroding democracy!!
Leslie, as you pointed out the Dail did have a free run. What use are the Seanad if they’re supposed to be keeping the Dail in check but don’t seem to be doing so.
They’ve had a long enough time to see the writing on the wall, only now planning for a reform themselves.
Can supporters of the Seanad point out where they have stopped some bill going through? Where they have acted like they should have? Instead of the endless speeches and reports?
The countries that have a unicameral legislature, such as Sweden, Denmark, and New Zealand also have a different structure for electing the members of their house and save guards against the Government ramming through legislation such as Ombudsmen and members of government not having a vote in the house. These are important checks and balances necessary for a unicameral legislature
Asking a political establishment to reform itself is nonsense – every election cycle we hear Dail reform and then the usual game of cowboys and Indians happens all over agin . The Seanad demonstrates how bloated this whole politics is . The party politic is just an excuse for inexpert individuals to slag off each other . A technocratic non party government should be the way to go .
It only provides an illusion that there are checks and balances. You lads know they’ll never implement the reforms you’re seeking. Getting rid of it might create pressure for Dail reform.
Checks and balances. Reform it! If it worked the way it was meant to it would stop those fascist b#stards from forming the dictatorship they seem to crave.
Forcing a government to retain the Seanad only leads to moral hazard, higher costs, and more bureaucracy. What Ireland needs is to hold a general election every 4 years instead if every 5 years. That way, people can determine which policies they want.
The reform BS is a smokescreen for keeping the toothless Seanad in something close to its present form. Abolish it, we’ll never notice the difference but will save a few bob.
What has the Seanad ever blocked a government from doing ?
The Seanad (in 2009) shortly after the An Bord Snip Nua report, failed to stop the then government from fecking off on 3 months summer holidays while the country borrowed €400 million a week…
Great point Peter – abolish it I say – its a group of ould wans giving out about everything but not able to do anything about anything
The rules governing what the Seanad can do are very limited with regard to blocking a Bill from the Dail. If it is a ‘Money Bill’ they are not allowed block at all. Other than that they can delay the Bill from passing to the President for enactment by 90 days. Other than that there seems little more that the Seanad can do. They can recommend changes to proposed legislation but afaik the Dail does not have to listen. What is needed is a major reform of out political system. We need a second chamber that is voted for by all yhe people. This chamber would be there to hold the Dail (and not just the government) to account. I for one will be voting for the retention of the Seanad. The proposed proceedural changes that will come into the Dail if Seanad is abolished will not be written in the Constitution and as such will be open to alterations to suit the Government of the day.
Do not abolish the senate change it and keep it. Give it the powers to over see the Dial and hold TD’s accountable.
Wonderful dream, it has failed the people for too long, cant even account for themselves never mind other TDs, how could you allow them to reform themselves, when they have had ample time to showcase what impact they could have… zero, get rid of it.
Senators expenses cost Taxpayers a lot. I would prefer a downsized government.
Kerry
Now you’re suggesting that you want the Seanad to be superior to the Dail! What a load if nonsense. This second Chamber has been nothing but a place for the elite to wallow and wax lyrical at our expense. It has achieved nothing but enrich its members. Get rid of it!
Senetors expenses are a drip in the ocean, keep it and cut all 166 TD salaries and expenses first.
What I’m suggesting is that I want the Dail to be held accountable by the Seanad. Not an unreasonable request. I’m left wondering if the Senate had real powers would the bank guarantee have gone through? I’ll agree it needs changing and additional powers which oddly enough the politicians of the Dail have never granted. Why not I wonder.
So if it doesn’t work (again) would you still call for more reforms or accept reality and abolish it?
We need to keep the Seanaid, to keep manners on the Taoiseach & TD’s, but at same time it badly is in need of reform…
If it means keeping those in the Dail in check, then it must stay, but what power do they have to stop those in government from making more disastrous mistakes?
I think Seanad should be abolished. Senators expenses, allowances, salaries, etc… A government usually works best when it is small.
Yes but Jeremy they’re not shrinking the power of the government, only decreasing the amount of people who hold that power.
@Jeremy
Can you give an example of a well working small goverment??
Not saying the big ones work well but “small goverment” is one of those phrases people generally just say without thought.
@Conor ……Its a sound byte from Foxnews….means nothing…..Jeremy must be a fan of that extreme right wing network, Republicans and some libertarians in the US love to pretend they want small government. Reagan himself shouted about small government in his original campaign but managed to increased it to twice its size by the time he’d finished.
Its just a sound byte being waved around by the gov and their supporters probably Varadkar’s idea …after all he worked for the US republican party.
So it’s “just a sound bite from Fox news”? Great way to bring to derail the discussion. The Reaganites are certainly at one extreme, but Ireland is at another extreme in terms of tax and State intervention. The Irish State is expressly designed to purchase votes with taxpayers money so FF/FG can continue their gluttonous duet. You could equally argue that “small government” is an argument for decent checks and balances.
Abolish the Dáil
Nah, just recognize FF and FG as treasonous organizations work against the interests of the Irish people and make them illegal.
20 odd million a year would pay figure a few well needed bed in hospitals.fuddy duddy holding pen =seaned
Ok , reduce the cost, don’t pay them anything other than the minimum wage, if their any use they won’t be doing it for the cash
More savings to be made by reducing TDs salaries and expenses. 20 million is a drip in the ocean.
@bob……If this government saves 20 million, it won’t benifit anyone in this country but the banks. The chances of them using it to renenstating carers hours to invalids or some other worthy cause is zero.
I say keep the upper house but reform the hell out of it. No more Taoiseach nominees no more college nominees. The seanad could be made up of non political people from the population…people that really represent the citizens that are affected daily by the actions of this banking controlled government.
Fair point
The savings made will instead be used to pay the TDs for the extra work they’ll be doing sitting on all the new committees, and all the extra expenses involves with those committees. We should be reforming the Seanad, making it more functional and give it a bit more power.
Also, no more of these crony nominees. Let us elect them.
On another thread, someone said people voted in referendum by 90% or more to reform the Seanad and all governments since then have conveniently ignored that referendum result.
Arguing that 20 million is “just a drop in the ocean” is nonsense. This is the attitude that has us where we are. But if you’re feeling generous, just send me a cheque please. After all, it’s just a drop in the ocean.
Exactly, that is something like how it was meant to work back in 1922
More power for the Seanad .Don’t give Enda austerity and dictatorship more power.
It isnt just about jobs for the boys more like Enda consolidating power.
Listen people, you voted for Enda. If you don’t want his cr@p then dismiss him at the next election.At present he can elect several of his own cronies to sit in this impotent, “jobs for me mates” farce of a place. Lets hear what reforms are going to take place, whether the Senators are going to be independently elected by the people, and what powers they have to change anything. What the hell have they done in challenging anything. It’s a big ego trip, free lunch. Without details of the reforms everyone keeps going on about there is only one option. Get rid.
In fairness Lou Enda is asking us to remove the Senate and then he will “reform” the dail to take account of the fall of the senate. Enda is the one on a free lunch. Come here vote this way and I’ll change this “promise”.
He will “reform” the Dail.
And we can believe a promise made by a man who said taxing homes was immoral, then proceeded to do so? I do not think so.
the seanad and the courts have one thing in common both have been arranged not to be accountable to the people and common law. Both fail justice and democracy by not being accountable for their actions to the people. Both are one party arrangements “said to be independent.” therein is the truth
“What’s the rush?” Senator Zappone asks.
Only a politician could suggest that having a referendum in October – almost a full 4 months from now – is rushing things.
Yeah, sure we’re only talking about changing forever the democratic governance of our country, why not have it next week?
And how many votes did senator Katherine Zappone get for entry into the Seanad? One, I believe, and she wants to dictate to us how we should reform this outdated institution!! She might have more credibility if she were to resign from her highly paid part time occupation and canvass for whatever she is proposing, in her own time and at her own expense.
Use the referendum to give Kenny & Gimmemore a black eye
The Seanad should be reformed. It is not constituted in the way it was originally intended and instead has been hijacked by the main political parties. Reading Noel Whelan in the Irish Times on the link below you might come to the opinion that Kenny and some of his Ministers want absolute power.
http://www.filmon.com/tv/api/channel/11?session_key=020096d70f0560c1a2f1b5f0f4beaa67&quality=high
Incidentally Whelan has some very good ideas about reforming the Seanad.
Good article, but isn’t it the case that Kenny already has all of these powers? I don’t think he’s scared of the Seanad.
When/if Coveney can tell us who is being prosecuted over the horsemeat scandal, I will listen to him.
Until then, keep your mouth shut, Simon.
Reform the Dail first and then let us consider the need for a second house. Fewer politicians means more power in the hands of fewer people. Democracy, whilst not perfect, is the the only bulwark against dictatorship.
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