Suicide issue will be addressed in X case law as pro-life groups slam FG

I’m sure some of the kids understand. Mine certainly do

I’d say it’s not a hard decision to make if you and the baby are healthy Sandra. The majority of those considering abortion would not be in that position though.

Sandra & Annie, *Facepalm*.

Go away, let the adults have a discussion.

Indeed it is awful to see children holding up signs that have been thrust into their young hands by their parents or grandparents that dont want women to have a choice on their own bodily functions. They are depriving their children of choice aswell by such an act.

I suppose its the same mentality as organised religion….. Get em while their young!

Admins, Any chance of getting a word filter set up to auto delete comments mentioning the word ‘murder’ in relation to abortion stories, itll sweep out most of the idiots

I completely agree, but it’s not just the anti-abortion groups that do this. Look at any protest and you’ll see children there. E.g. the Seán Quinn protests, protests against the household charge etc. Sure even political parties do it!

Well Annie, I must say I believe you to be an extremely irresponsible parent so, to ensure your children “understand” something so sensitive! They’re children for God sake, leave them run around playing ball, not holding posters by parents who clearly and ironically don’ believe their own kids deserve a childhood! More proof that pro life believe rights of a child end when outside of the womb!

What is disgusting about teaching children to respect life from an early age?

Barry, teaching kids respect for life in your mind is putting posters of foetus’s outside primary schools and getting them out in the cold and dark to hold posters to promote a narrow minded opinion they clearly don’t have the maturity to form themselves is it? Kids of people who do support womens right to health don’t teach their children to respect life? Probably ironic so that those who support the right to arms in the US are very much anti abortion. Keep digging their pal!

*THERE

@Annie, Please don’t answer if you think this might be too personal of a question, but may I ask what ages your children are and how you explained the complexities of this issue to them? I’m not a parent and I would never criticise someone else’s techniques, but I’m sure you presented both sides of the arguments if you knew your children were mature enough to understand?

The same way I would never subject a child to a death penalty rally, or a march on a government over austerity cuts, no child should be asked to participate in a debate on an abortion issue. All three points effect them too, but they’re still children.

It’s gas now Conor Buggy drags religion into every story. It’s actually amazing he didn’t work gay marriage into this one too. Can we please have this troll removed?

Says the egg features herself. I’d love to know why you think I am a troll when I freely show myself for who I am unlike yourself Sandra.

Its gas how sandra refuses to see anything beyond religion in any of my comments.

Yeah, disgusting child exploiting pro-choicers, right? Now, everyone give this picture the obligatory red thumbs, like the bunch of hypocrites you are. http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/A39vQyJCQAANdbY.jpg

Oh Johno you never fail to amuse. I think that is completely wrong what she is doing! I think it’s shameful but one quick point of note – Notice how she is just one person with a homemade sign as opposed to the kids (multiple) put at the front of an organised protest with official signs – If you can’t see the difference there, you’re more deluded that I thought, if that’s even possible!

I’d murder a pint right now.

Sandra is not real, Conor. She is the truest form of troll I’ve ever seen on this or any other site.

John, inappropriate but at least they are too young to have any notion at all what the issue is about. My concern is more about those children from 6 years of age upwards.

In any event the presence or absence of children at such meetings is irrelevant to the issue itself. It is a sideline point.

As a non parent, I would have to question the graphic material of aborted foetuses to which young children brought to pro life meetings are exposed.

As for the signs you show, they do have a rather joyful, celebratory and life affirming quality.

That said I am uneasy about your disseminating photos of children. It feels a little creepy and I really don’t think that either side should be circulating photos of children. There are privacy and Data Protection issues involved. I would prefer that your remove the link voluntarily or else I shall report you to the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner and let it decide.

Here John Mc guirk.
.how’s the list of pro choice journalists coming along?

Hey ManOnTheStreet you are probably right. I do however find Sandra to be a useful tool in order to expand on rational ideas. Her statements are usually so enmeshed in hate that she presents the perfect opportunity to oppose her.

Should have put the word ‘useful’ in brackets and left it at that.

That picture is a perfect example of irony there John.

That mother is just delightful, so lucky them children that she was gracious enough to accept them after they were conceived. Whats more, were she to walk down Henry Street, she’d probably be celebrated for it.

It’s actually not ironic at all, just the culmination of the widespread delusion that people somehow have the ‘right’ to accept life if and when it suits.

Its their choice of course, that mother is typical of every evangelic pro-choice proponent of this newly discovered ‘reproductive right’.

So Dublin lad you think it’s ok to terminate the life of a child for any reason whatsoever ? Thankfully the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland do but agree with you . Like with the USA’s ‘Roe v Wade’ supreme court decision, it will take an un democratic strategy to impose abortion in Ireland .

A lot of comments here would make you think there will be forced abortions, which is not the case! Ultimately it is a woman’s choice what she wants to do with her body. We just need to be adults about this! No scaremongering from either sides.

“so would u withdraw life support from cystic fibrosis patients or accident victims for example?”

Well, this is abortion and it’s a different issue to euthanasia. I believe people can become more responsible once the ‘nanny state’ stops their conservative suppression of people who should have right’s to decide for themselves.

Have to disagree with your definition of a life dublinlad. The ability to survive without assistance isn’t a benchmark I’d like to see used for a number of reasons. I think the existence of a life should be judged subjectively based on actual development.

Ok, show me proof that a foetus can survive outside the womb before 17 weeks? No matter what way you spin it, a foetus isn’t life until it can survive using its own organs independently.

By that logic a person on life support is not a life either. Or a child who is born premature and has to go on a respirator is not a life. You are not looking at the big picture of your position.

Personally I would benchmark the existence of life on the development of the brain and nervous system. If something has the ability to be self aware I would consider it alive.

What about the body of the foetus ?

Good point Anthony, I forgot Roe V Wade was Supreme court decision and undemocratic.

Heartening to know I suppose that the vast majority of people don’t consider abortion to be right, or a child to be anything but at any gestational age, regardless of the ability to survive outside the womb. Survival of the ‘ablest’ as another poster pointed out.

Not if they stopped the Americans funding these stupid campaigns

Higgz, nice try, but your party were are main impediment to this in the Dáil. Yizzer still the voice of upper middle class conservatism – let’s just see how the vote goes.

In any event, Satan and a coterie of the lesser imps and demons will be performing Walt Disney’s Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs on Ice before I’d vote Blueshirt.

@vodoo_criminology, I’d have said it was FF who were the biggest impediment to legislating for abortion. They were the ones in government for the vast majority of the last 20 years, and instead of legislating, they actually proposed 2 amendments- the 12th and 25th amendment- which would have restricted the X case judgment further.

Maybe so – sorry, that should have been Dwarves, btw.

Speaking of which, none of the establishment parties can claim any credit for this, they’ve all had their chances in government and opposition to do what was necessary since 1992, it’s shameful that it took this long.

Deeply cynical of Ógra Blueshirt David Higgz to try claiming credit for this.

We’re in agreement then nellysroom. What taking a life has to to with the removal of an embryo from a woman’s womb however I don’t know….

Could you explain, I don’t understand it.

It’s the graphic material they print backed by American funds I’d imagine Dave. The online campaigns driven by American Likes & Shares is another thing, coupled with blatant propaganda methods (’10k’ at a pro-life rally recently yet they couldn’t fill half of Molesworth St. and had crowd noises blaring out of very expensive speakers on queue with speaches). Their unwillingness to enter into any sort of reasonable debate can be added to the list.

I’ve read online of other things that have now been pulled from sites that posted them, so I’ll err on the side of caution and not print them here.

Cheers Niall.

I ask because I just see them as a pro-life movement. As such me and it are allies, I don’t know the politics of it though.

I don’t necessarily agree with graphic imagery either, not because I’m offended at it being graphic or obscene (which it is obviously, as war is), but because that’s all that gets talked about afterwards. I was at the rally, albeit late, and so didn’t see it when it was full, or any of the speeches. I’m all for rational debate, but I don’t think the majority of people care about it enough to actually change their minds, never mind listen to the other side.

I’m decidedly profile, and can’t see myself ever budging from that position. I suspect there are many people with similar strongly held views on the opposite side of the fence.

Read that about the crowd noises elsewhere here on the Journal, not sure how true it is (that said, not saying its not).

Surely the IFPA, the Irish member of the International Planned Parenthood Federation has received funds from the US also. I’d be shocked if this weren’t the case. I don’t see it as meddling in another nations politics, albeit for the wrong reasons imho.

No worries David, cheers for an actual response that isn’t full of insults to be honest.
I’d be one of those on the pro-choice side that won’t be moved from my position. The difference between us (I’m assuming) is that you would see conception as the beginning of life whereas I don’t. I’d view it as being whenever the foetus is able to live independently from its host/mother (I say host, you say mother so let’s have both). So (again assuming) you would think that the right to life for the unborn trumps the woman’s right to choosing whether she is able for this.

On my own personal views I cannot understand the viewpoint that victims of rape should be forced to have a child of their rapist. It equates to making women baby factories that a man can use when he pleases. I equally understand why a woman who discoveries that her child will be born with a poor quality of life would choose a termination, I do not see how forcing that woman to go through with the birth can be called pro-life. I would hope that in the near future these two ideas of why a woman would have an abortion would be not up for discussion, as I cannot see any reasonable argument against them.

Then comes ones that I understand will be a bone of contention for many, and that is the woman’s right to choose regardless. I am of the opinion that we should trust fully a woman’s right to know whether she is emotionally and financially capable of having a baby and leave it completely up to her, what some call abortion-on-demand although I hate that term as no-one has ever wanted their life to include having an abortion. But I do understand why someone who believes life begins at conception would disagree with me on that. At that stage I guess we’re up against each other to convince others of our viewpoints but hopefully, when the time comes, people will be ready for a reasoned debate on the matter.

As for Youth Defence, Life House etc. I would encourage you to look into them more. They are backed by the American religious right who see Ireland as some sort of moral battleground. Google Life House Ireland and take a look at their website, there is receiving outside donations and there is a foreign country looking to impose its views on people of a different country. I view it as somewhat imperialist and I find the idea disgusting. If this were a pro-choice website, and if anyone knows one please point them out to me, I would say the same. This is an Irish issue that should be decided by Irish people, groups and funds.

Sorry, one last thing. I was at that pro-life rally to see what they are like for myself and saw the crowd size and heard the noise coming from the speakers myself.

I know some won’t believe me but I’m not trying to convince them. I genuinely couldn’t believe it when a crowd of about 1,5k – 2k (good turnout anyway) cheered for a speaker saying that there were 10k on the street that night. It actually frightened me that people could be so blind to their cause to ignore the truth that was in front of their eyes.

Enough rambling from me anyway!

Likewise, and I’m guilt of it myself at times.

I’m unreservedly pro-life and am happy to explain the reasoning of that view in relation to each of the points you made. I do consider conception to be the beginning of life, and don’t think it can be credibly argued otherwise. For instance the zygote is a cell in which two gametes have fused. It is by definition a distinct organism from its mother. I don’t think it can be called a host (besides it being offensive), it isn’t scientifically accurate. A host-symbiotic relationship is one in which the two organism are different species, clearly this is not the case. Your definition, besides the fact that I don’t think to be correct, is open to interpretation and so scope for manoeuvre. Whilst I do think the child has an absolute and inviolable right to simply exist, saying the child’s right to life trumps that of the mother somehow implies that its a competition. We want both to win. First class medical care should always be provided, and if strong drugs/therapy etc. results in the loss of the child, this is unfortunate, but not intentional and so morally acceptable.

Victims of rape deserve sympathy and support. I don’t pretend to know how that person feels, but I still don’t think it makes it permissible to terminate a child’s life to make her feel better. Also, its often argued that pro-lifers stay silent in cases of rape, or other violent crime, I would argue first that this is not the case. Secondly, even if it were, the overwhelming public denunciation of what has occurred and acceptance of the wrong that has been committed somewhat negates the moral responsibility to vehemently speak out as it were. The same cannot be said for unborn children who require that their right to life be defended by those who cannot possibly ever experience their situation.

I equally do not understand those seeking termination where they child is disabled or malformed in some way. Its effectively a eugenicist attitude, the only difference between 1940 and now being these ‘compassionate’ interventions are taking place inside the womb. Your hope that this will be revisited in years to come, presumably so that the law can be changed is exactly why I and people like me oppose legislating for X. Whilst I first think that excellent healthcare exists in Ireland already and that such interventions to save a mothers life which do not specifically aim to terminate the life of the child are morally acceptable.

The right to choose. This phrase is bandied about as if pro-lifers are trying to take something away from her such as her ‘bodily integrity’ and such like. No regard is given to the child’s ‘right to bodily integrity’. And whilst you may not like the phrase abortion on demand, that’s effectively what the UK, Spain, US etc. have in place. No one ever said any women ever wanted to have an abortion, however when someone is backed into a wall, or just plain decides to have one, there is nothing in these countries to reasonably stop her if she wants ones. I do not mistrust women, however I don’t think the life of another should be placed in their hands either.

I will, I’ll look into YD and Life House. I don’t know if I’d agree that its wrong to support pro-life in other countries. That said if public opinion and the pro-life stance is undermined in anyway, then this could certainly turn out to be counter productive.

Hope that’s informative.

Brendan, i never heard of the Nazis experimenting on foetuses. Is that a fact you can vouch?

You know who would be a good group to ask if something is like the Holocaust? Jewish scholars – who believe that an abortion when a woman’s life is threatened is a moral obligation. But what would they know about it, right?

A foetus is not just a clump of cells, you could at least understand what a foetus is before you comment on it.

Buddy of mine’s wife is 8 weeks pregnant. not sure if she’s gonna lose the baby or not. if she does lose it they’ll both be devastated. I’ll remember to mention to them that it was just “a clump of cells” probably shouldn’t be too broke up over it. Tool.

The “clump of cells” refers to the science of the matter – which by its very nature is clinical and objective.

What a woman refers to the contents of her uterus as is *subjective*, your friend would be devastated to lose the hope that they have attached to this bundle of cells that’s gradually forming into something resembling a human. Another woman at the same stage of pregnancy may be trying to get the funds together to go to the UK and breathe a sigh of relief when her period finally comes.

Of course you wouldn’t say to a women mourning the loss of her hopes and dreams that it was just a clump of cells – she’s the one who miscarried, she saw what came out. But it is the facts..

Gamma I wouldnt say anything to her being friends with a f***wit like yourself is stressful in itself i imagine

if were being scientific about it then we’re all “clumps of cells” you and I just happen to be bigger clumps of cells.

I agree with the others. Great post Paul.

So basically, what you’re saying there is that the woman’s convenience trumps her child’s right to life?

Abortion relieves an unwilling father of his responsibility to support his child.

Also, since when is abortion a treatment for depression/ suicide?

Abortion isn’t a treatment for suicide, but an unwanted pregnancy can certainly be the cause. So, just so I understand, you would rather have a woman take her own life than allow doctors to remove an embryo from her womb? How very pro-life of you nellysroom.

A foetus , not an embryo..

Please , at least know the difference before you comment.

Just to add, the death of a child is certain if abortion takes place whereas the possibility of the mother commuting suicide is not certain.

Abortion is not the treatment for depression/suicidal thoughts.

I suggest you read a bit more about things you feel strongly about nellysroom. Since the vast majority of terminations are carried out early in the first trimester, very few foetuses are ever aborted.

In humans a foetus refers to what is in the womb after week 11 of pregnancy, what is in the womb before then is called an embryo.

I think nellysroom is like Ms Simmons one of the wait and see. A woman threatens suicide and Nelly will wait and see, If no suicide occurs Nelly is right if a suicide does occur Nelly will send flowers for the foetus and not for the mother.

Because I’m right? You’re like some sort of idiot that can’t come with anything new besides “face palm” and “let the grown ups talk”. More like Dublinlad2002.

You’re not right? You haven’t stated your opinion on the subject? Just posted a picture of some children with some pro choice protesters. So tell me, James. What is your opinion on the abortion issue, and why ?

Yes I did, read the first line. I don’t like either side doing it.
I’m in favour of this. Why, were you hoping I would say I wasn’t so you could call me a ‘religious nut’? I can see I’m dealing with someone that can’t form his own idea’s

No no, I like to listen to rational arguments. It’s silly when someone resorts to calling someone a ‘Religious Nut’ for disagreeing with them. Sadly on this issue, they’re usually someone from the IONA Institute or Pro-Life group. They loose credibility by associating themselves with those groups.

@susan
Thanks for giving me a laugh while you put the twonk in his place

Damon, you shabbily diminish human tragedy. You are without dignity.

@ Eamonn, not Damon. Sorry.

Entertaining for me at least. Keep it coming Eamonn, I have a great fire going, the TV is off, my little one is at her Mammies and at this moment I have nothing better to do but read about how religious looneys all over the state are at this moment crying into their tea and biscuits dumbstruck at the horror of being placed in a cage manufacturered by virtue of a set beliefs held by others and not shared by yourselves.

Does that sound familiar Eamon, or is the irony inherent in such an occasion lost on that fundamentalist mind of yours?

@Eamonn you will have to put the Inquisition and book burnings on the back burner. Enable Plan B.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Gavin, but your situation is personal to you. Every woman’s situation is different, not all will welcome an unplanned or unexpected pregnancy for whatever reasons.

Thanks for sharing that Gavin, and my sincere sympathies.

Laying out what happened to you in your circumstances and your natural reaction, to recognise an unborn human being as just that is above all else honest. Something that seems to be lacking from much of the debate, particularly in my opinion on the pro-choice side. They revel in this fictional ‘grey area’ between non-life and life, between zygote and human being, or even more insidiously, between foetus (9-38 weeks inclusive) and human being.

That said, you’ve already been checked with a pro-choice, feminist remark from Patricia with ‘your situation being personal to you. Every woman’s situation is different’, a pretty standard null and void response from those who would have you, I and anyone who will listen believe that the life of a child, regardless of gestation is subject to ‘whatever reasons’ pro-choicer’s would put forth as adequate grounds to terminate. Worthy to note that this doesn’t even attempt to disguise her obvious advocacy for abortion on demand.

With all due respect and I say it only because I think it’s very important to note that whilst I completely understand the sympathetic attitude many people have toward abortion in the following cases; rape, incest (you didn’t mention), threat to the mothers’ life and fatal foetal abnormalities I would disagree with you in all cases. Treatment however which results in a baby’s death is not the same as abortion, in a failed abortion, the baby lives, despite the utmost effort to the contrary. The reason being all of these circumstance can and indeed have been hijacked in numerous other jurisdictions, most notably the UK, Spain and the US. Once that line is crossed and human life is subject to reduced or non-existent rights pre and certain level of autonomy, it is hard/impossible to re-establish. The erosion of this societal boundary does not happen quickly, but very gradually and indeed has already begun, it must be shored up.

Anyone who thinks pro-choice people will stop at legislating for X and will not continue to push afterwards for a full referendum to remove the Eighth Amendment from the Irish Constitution are sorely mistaken. X however (the basis of which I believe to flawed irrespective) can, and will I suspect (if legislated upon) be hijacked in numerous cases to obtain an abortion in circumstances other than the ‘therapeutic’ ones put forth for legislation. Those who support circumstantial abortion do so foolishly, once abortion gets a foothold in a country, it is very difficult if not near impossible to get rid of. This might apply to those who perhaps are vehemently against the abortion on demand model, but support in the case of rape, incest, threat to mothers’ life or fatal foetal abnormalities.

Thanks again for sharing your story Gavin and may your son rest in peace.

Despite all of the above, and as you succinctly put, there is a predominant cohort who will ‘conveniently dismiss any opinion here that is not rabidly pro-choice’, and give it justly deserved and coveted Reds Stars.

@Anthony. A psychiatrist in this country cannot prescribe medication to a pregnant woman as their OB consultant does not allow it.

@ceara A consultant psychiatrist can prescribe for pregnant women. However, in the case of medications which may have an effect on the developing child, this is usually done as part of a full and open discussion with the patient, and including the obstetrician in the resultant correspondence.