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SPECULATION THAT THE Covid-19 pandemic – and in particular the measures implemented to stem the spread of the virus – has led to an increase in suicide deaths has persisted despite there being no evidence to support the claims.
Unfounded conjecture surrounding rising suicide rates remains common on social media in many countries, including Ireland – particularly in anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine Facebook, Telegram and WhatsApp groups.
The most recent Central Statistics Office (CSO) quarterly statistics are also being touted as evidence of a spike in suicides despite the data being largely in-line with previous, pre-2020 trends.
In the latest ‘vital statistics’ update, the CSO notes that recorded suicides were 192% higher in quarter two of 2021 than they were in Q2 of 2020.
However, the CSO has attached a major caveat to the 2020 figures, due to the fact that Covid-19 restrictions on Coroners’ Courts holding public hearings at the start of the pandemic meant the recorded number of suicides was artificially low that quarter.
In Q2 of each of the five years before the pandemic, the number of suicide deaths registered was in the range 63-120. Due to the underreporting in 2020, the number fell to just 25. In 2021 it moved back in line with previous years (73 were recorded) when the restrictions on Coroners’ Courts were relaxed.
The National Suicide Research Foundation says this indicates a return to previous levels of registered suicide deaths, not an increased level of suicide.
The independent research unit investigates the causes of suicide and self-harm in Ireland. It is a registered charity and receives the majority of its funding from the HSE.
It must also be noted that Ireland’s method for recording suicide deaths means the figures for 2020 won’t be finalised until October/ November this year and the figures for 2021 won’t be finalised until the end of 2023.
The NSRF head of research, Dr Paul Corcoran, says the foundation has picked up on inaccurate claims about rising suicide rates throughout the pandemic and noted that the unfounded online speculation can be harmful to those at risk of suicide.
“Soon after the onset of the pandemic there were many claims related to an anticipated increase in suicidal behaviour. These claims, and their reinforcement, risk impacting negatively on vulnerable members of the population.
The reliable suicide data that has emerged over the course of the pandemic has shown that most countries have seen no increase in suicide deaths and some have seen a decrease. However, an interest in making claims about possible increases in suicide has persisted.
The foundation’s chief scientist, Professor Ella Arensman, noted that some media outlets can also cause significant harm by sensationalising suicide stories and by jumping to conclusions based on incomplete statistics.
“People who are currently experiencing depression, they will not question the statements in the media.”
Arensman warned that when people in a vulnerable position see headlines indicating a link between the pandemic and a surge in suicides “they could take that for granted and it can negatively impact on their current situation. That doesn’t give hope.”
Corcoran, who is also an epidemiologist, also noted that the assertions regularly come with cherry-picked statistics.
“Interestingly, the CSO Q1 2021 data gave a figure of 36 suicides, half the number of 72 in Q1 2020. These figures could have been used to suggest that the pandemic was associated with a large decrease in suicide deaths. However, there seems to be more interest in making claims about potential increases.”
The procedures that have to be followed before a death is determined as a suicide in Ireland means that there is a time lag between a suicide occurring and it being recorded in the statistics.
The cause of death in suspected suicide cases is reached through a coroner’s inquest, which is not held until at least six weeks after the person’s death, and inquests can take several months to reach a verdict.
Registration of a suicide death happens soon after the inquest and the CSO quarterly figures represent the number of suicide deaths registered in the quarter.
Therefore, the quarterly figures strongly correlate with the number of inquests of suicide deaths that were held, not the number of suicide deaths that occurred. The deaths in question usually occurred approximately six months earlier.
This is why curbs on Coroners Courts in 2020 caused such a dramatic dip in the Q2 2020 figure.
The CSO told The Journal this impact was felt from March 2020 onwards. It noted that it provided a detailed caveat on the matter in the Q2 2020 release and also mentioned it again in the Q2 2021 release.
The CSO releases mortality data, including suicide statistics, in three different stages. First, there is the provisional stage which provides the number of deaths based on year of registration. The data remains provisional for around two years, so the statistics from Q2 2020 and 2021 are still provisional.
Next, there is an official stage which revises the numbers based on year of occurrence, and finally, the figures are revised again to include late registrations.
There are usually notable changes between provisional and official suicide figures, with the official figures almost always higher.
The official annual stats are published about 20 months after any given year’s end. Further to this around 15% of suicide deaths are registered too late to be included in these official figures.
“Unfortunately, it is necessary to wait three-four years to get a close reflection of the number of suicide deaths in Ireland,” Dr Corcoran said.
The NSRF operates the Suicide and Self-Harm Observatory (SSHO) which gathers real-time suicide and self-harm data from Cork and Kerry.
The observatory is provided with an update on suspected suicide cases in the counties every two weeks, giving it a picture of the situation long before the CSO data.
Professor Arensman said there are indications of a slight increase in self-harm in the most recent data from Cork and Kerry, with people who are not receiving the face-to-face mental health support they require suffering.
She added that this is in-line with international statistics in other high-income countries where slight increases in suicide rates have been recorded in recent months.
“For people with mild anxiety with mild depression this [online supports/telemedicine] has been shown to be sufficient. But for people with severe depression, severe anxiety, and other severe mental health conditions, we don’t yet have proven effectiveness,” Arensman said.
She added that real-time data on suspected suicides across Ireland would be hugely beneficial for intervention and prevention purposes.
While there is no evidence that the pandemic has led to an increase in suicides, organisations that provide mental health support have noticed a shift in the demand for their services, particularly at times of uncertainty regarding restrictions.
The ISPCC said it has experienced increases in contacts to Childline at particular points but the listening service has not experienced an overall increase over the duration of the pandemic to date.
“When restrictions were first announced, children and young people were among the first to be impacted. In the week in which schools were closed, our listening service experienced an increase in online contacts, calls and texts,” an ISPCC spokesperson said.
The period of March to April 2020 saw the number of visitors to Childline’s website jump by over 50% compared with the same period in 2019.
Pieta House said overall demand for Pieta’s services increased by 22% from 2020 to 2021. The number of under 18s seeking support increased by 42% last year and more than doubled on the same time the year before.
The charity was prompted to launch a recruitment campaign to find additional therapists to meet the demand.
“Our services have been needed more than ever, and an increase in the volume of therapists with specific experience to deal with our increasing younger age group became a priority for us in the summer of 2021,” a Pieta spokesperson said.
Youth organisation Spunout said there were “big spikes” in demand in October and late December 2020 that coincide with increasing Covid restrictions.
“In terms of negative effects on mental health, or an increase in the need for mental health supports, we can highlight that service demand increased for us during times of pandemic uncertainty,” a spokesperson noted.
The traffic to Spunout’s website has doubled since the start of the pandemic and its most read articles are on self harm, the effects of social media on mental health, and depression.
The Samaritans said it hasn’t seen a huge increase in demand as its service has always been very busy, carrying out approximately half a million calls per year.
“What we did notice was that calls were longer for many people as callers struggled to cope with Covid and it’s restrictions – leading to more loneliness, isolation and causing family and relationship issues,” the charity said.
The HSE provides advice on how to mind your mental health during the coronavirus outbreak on its Your Mental Health website.
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THIS IS SERIOUS BS. I personally knew 5 musicians and know of 4 more who took their own lives in 2020/21. I didn’t hear of, or know any in the years before that.
In this study, they looked at 21 countries and subregions, they found in all cases suicide rates decreased, sometimes by large margins, during the pandemic in 2020. Same as seen here in 2020. So yes, it seems to be a real effect.
A number less than 1 is a decrease i.e. 0.81 is an approx 19% decrease:
New South Wales, Australia (0·81 [95% CI 0·72–0·91]);
Alberta, Canada (0·80 [0·68–0·93]);
British Columbia, Canada (0·76 [0·66–0·87]);
Chile (0·85 [0·78–0·94]);
Leipzig, Germany (0·49 [0·32–0·74]);
Japan (0·94 [0·91–0·96]);
New Zealand (0·79 [0·68–0·91]);
South Korea (0·94 [0·92–0·97]);
California, USA (0·90 [0·85–0·95]);
Illinois (Cook County), USA (0·79 [0·67–0·93]);
Texas (four counties), USA (0·82 [0·68–0·98]); and
Ecuador (0·74 [0·67–0·82]).
Pirkis, J., John, A., et al. 2021. Suicide trends in the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic: an interrupted time-series analysis of preliminary data from 21 countries. The Lancet Psychiatry, 8, 579–588, https://doi.org/10.1016/S2215-0366(21)00091-2.
A decreased in suicide rates during wartime was first noted by the famed French sociologist Émile Durkheim 1897.
He proposed that wartime increased social cohesion and that protects against suicide. It is possible that the pandemic was similar, a threat that affected all of us that increased social cohesion.
“Durkheim (1897) noted that suicide rates declined during wars, both in men and women.
Rqjcewicz (1971) claimed that this was also true for more recent wars and that the decline was found in nations participating in the war and those who did not participate. The decline in women and in nations not participating in the war made it unlikely that the decline in suicide rates dining war was due to official undercounting or to men committing suicide in such a way that they were recorded as war casualties rather than suicides. Rojcewicz (1971) concluded that the most likely explanation tor lower suicide rates during wartime was that provided by Durkheim who argued that war increases the level of social integration within societies, and that this higher level of social integration results in a reduction in the suicide rale”
Lester, D., 1994. Suicide rates before, during and after the world wars. European Psychiatry, 9(5), pp.262-264.
@Shane McGrath: while I’m sorry for your loss, any number of suicides is terrible and tragic, but you can’t argue against data.
Anecdotal evidence can’t be used against empirical data.
A man that wins the lotto must think that everyone wins it because he did, obviously this is not the case.
I think this data points at something much worse than lockdowns being bad, it means that ordinary day to day life before covid was terrible for a lot of people, perhaps worse than lockdowns and as a society we need to do better for those people.
@Shane McGrath: Apologies, I did not mean to post my response to your post. I refreshed my browser and wrongly thought I was posting an isolated comment.
@David Jordan: That was an interesting read. I wonder if we could use Social Cohesion to our advantage in the future to keep the rates down.
@Shane McGrath: the people’s who claim to know if all don’t know s**t, false claims by them all. We all know somebody or am that person that was on the brink of taking their own life…… Not only the pandemic to blame but if didn’t Help and we were all forgotten about due to covid. I just beg for everyone to be strong as I was and make it through and believe in themselves and all stand together and support each other and be stronger than our government that forgot and let us all down.
@Shane McGrath: by your argument, seeing as I knew no one who has taken their own lives during the pandemic, but knew several who did before it started, it would actually be considered a boost for mental health. Which is a ridiculous argument BTW. Mental health in this country has been an issue for years, long before any pandemic.
@Great White Hope: a55hole
@Shane McGrath: given people in the music industry are more likely to suffer with mental health how do you know these 5 people weren’t struggling long before the pandemic. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=mental+health+and+music+industry&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DZ3BOCtxdJ8cJ
@Shane McGrath: its not BS, its proper analysis. It may not align with your experience but that doesn’t mean its BS. Our own experiences don’t equal universal reality.
@Shane McGrath: Dont believe story son
@Shane McGrath: Jesus Shane, your part of the world seems to be a real blackspot. There has to be something else going on here.
@John Black:Very very interesting point! Well worth noting.
@Great White Hope: Another frightened annonymous a55hole.
@Great White Hope: cowardice hiding behind a fake profile.
@Shane McGrath: A lot of anger. I wonder why?
@Great White Hope: it wasn’t hard to find out who you are cow ard.
@Shane McGrath: You’re not frightening anyone son
There is too many suicides in Ireland whether there has been an increase or not
Bold statement, Sure how do they know after it’s too late, of course it is. Isolation especially amongst musicians or people who depend on nightlife for a living also the unvaccinated who are not allowed socialise.
@Ciaran O ‘Reilly: because the cause of death is recorded on the death certificate as died by suicide. Then they count the number of death certs for that year. And as there has been no significant jump in the rate of suicide they can come to the conclusion that it has not caused more suicides. For some people perhaps it was the final push but unfortunately they would more than likely have been included in those figures at some point. If it wasn’t covid it would be something else to break the camels back. Suicide is a complex problem and there are lots of contributing factors.
@Ciaran O ‘Reilly: I would also say the lack of mental health and addiction services, continued stigma about mental health especially for men are far bigger contributing factors.
But is there evidence to the contrary? There is not a quota of suicides per year that anything above can be attributed to the pandemic. This will be very easy to deny and will be almost impossible to prove, at best it will be a reasonable assumption.
@The Divils Avocado: did you even read the article?
@Neil Neart: I did yeah, why? Did I miss something?
@Neil Neart: I’m off to sleep now but if you intend to reply, first read the article yourself and try to interpret my comment in light of what you read in the article, and then tell me if there is any evidence that I have missed that definitively supports the theory that the pandemic has not contributed to suicides or that there is a quota of suicides per year, more than just a historical rates or rates similar to other high income countries, these are individuals, not statistics.
@Neil Neart: wat did he miss?
@The Divils Avocado: I don’t believe anyone is specifically stating that the pandemic has not contributed to suicides, as you state. What the data does (do?) tell us is that there have not been an increase in total suicide numbers. There is a small but important difference in the wording. Many people claim that the pandemic has driven suicide rates up, or that there have been greater numbers of suicides as a result of the pandemic, which simply isn’t true.
@The Divils Avocado: Individuals add up to statistics. Also the article does not say that definitively there were no suicides due to the pandemic or restrictions but that there were less than years without those thing. The point is that even if these things have provoked suicides the level is less than previous years. To counter your ridiculous question, prove that the pandemic and/or restrictions have not prevented suicides, these are individuals not statistics….
@The Divils Avocado: In this paper they found a drop in suicide rates during the pandemic in 2020, in all 22 countries and regions examined, some by almost 50%.
Pirkis, J., John, A., et al. 2021. Suicide trends in the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic: an interrupted time-series analysis of preliminary data from 21 countries. The Lancet Psychiatry, 8, 579–588, https://doi.org/10.1016/S2215-0366(21)00091-2.
A similar decreased in suicide rates was noted during wartime by the French sociologist Émile Durkheim 1897.
Durkheim proposed that wartime increased social cohesion and that protects against suicide. It is possible that the pandemic was similar, an outside threat that affected all of us that increased social cohesion.
Durkheim also commented that suicide rates increased after war ended to pre-war levels, however a reanalysis by Lester in 1994 found that in some countries the decrease in suicide rates persisted, suggesting that increased social cohesion continued after wars ended. This was observed for countries at war and uninvolved countries.
“Durkheim (1897) noted that suicide rates declined during wars, both in men and women. Rqjcewicz (1971) claimed that this was also true for more recent wars and that the decline was found in nations participating in the war and those who did not participate. The decline in women and in nations not participating in the war made it unlikely that the decline in suicide rates dining war was due to official undercounting or to men committing suicide in such a way that they were recorded as war casualties rather than suicides. Rojcewicz (1971) concluded that the most likely explanation tor lower suicide rates during wartime was that provided by Durkheim who argued that war increases the level of social integration within societies, and that this higher level of social integration results in a reduction in the suicide rale”
Lester, D., 1994. Suicide rates before, during and after the world wars. European Psychiatry, 9(5), pp.262-264.
@David Jordan: that’s very interesting, thanks for sharing
@David Jordan: that’s very interesting, I thanks for sharing
@Diarmuid Hunt: While it hasn’t increased the numbers year on year, I would argue that when we may have seen a drop in figures for other reasons, the pandemic has driven this figure back up. I don’t believe this is a “ridiculous” statement. While it might be difficult to prove the reason why people die by suicide, I believe it would be much more insightful to compare these peoples reasons with people who die by suicide for pandemic specific reasons (now I know you will say without a note it’s difficult but Coroners Court is also a good indication). A spike year on year no, but a spike in suicides that otherwise might not have been yes.
@The Divils Avocado: I’m curious as to how that study would be conducted. Like how do you measure the reasons people die by suicide against people who die for pandemic specific reasons of suicide. The cororners report will tell you the means by how they took their life but it will not give the reason. So how is this data going to be collected in order to be compared. Given the fact that dying by suicide during a pandemic is not evidence that the pandemic had anything to do with it.
@Rmaybe: read my comment – as mentioned, coroners court – they often delve into the reasons behind an unexpected suicide.
Read my comment – I never said anything about dying by suicide during a pandemic was a pandemic related reason.. Is this more of your from Covid / with Covid BS?
@The Divils Avocado: I read your comment, it’s ridiculous, you want to compare pandemic specific related suicide deaths with other suicide reasons. Given that often close family members or even the person themselves do not fully understand the reason for suicide a coroners report other than the actual cause of death will give nothing other than an opinion on the reason. So how do you conduct a study on data you can’t collect. What we do have is the data on how many deaths occur each year and we know it hasn’t changed significantly in fact its considerably lower than the beginning of the decade . We have however seen an increase in service use so while more people’s mental health may have been impacted or they’ve had the time to quieten their brain to seek help, more people are not dying by suicide and are in fact seeking help. Arguably you could say the pandemic was a good thing for some people because it allowed them that time to cope with their mental well being.
@Rmaybe: you continue to say coroners report, do you think it’s a typo when I say Coroners “Court”? Have you been? This is where questions are asked of the family and an attempt to find a reason, not always possible agreed, but as I mentioned is a good resource. Also, family and friends do often know the reason, some people leave notes, some people do talk and unfortunately it does not work out.
@The Divils Avocado: If the pandemic spiked suicides during 2020/21 but they were still lower than other years, you’re not giving an explanation for the “other reasons” suicides went down.
How do you know that the “other reasons” suicides fell weren’t related to the pandemic? How do you know suicides spiked due to the pandemic at all?
Some fairly hefty speculation in there.
@M: I don’t know and have never claimed to know either way and I have not speculated at all, let alone “fairly heftily”. I am calling out the fact that this study relies on a theory that there is a defined number of suicides each year which is ethically questionable. Because you asked, other reasons there ‘may’ have been a reduction against previous years could be less job stress due to places being closed, ‘possibly’ off set by others dying by suicide due to job loss – these are speculations.
W T F…BS…I know of 3 people who have committed suicid e because of Covid. Does there have to be a spike for these people to be recognised!
@Hear me now: because of covid or with covid.
@Rmaybe: because of…
@Hear me now: so they had covid and decided to take their own lives. And I think you’ll fund the term is died by suicide not committed suicide. It is neither a crime nor a sin.
@Rmaybe: while i don’t agree with their anecdotal led conclusion. Your reply to them is off the mark and driven by irritation by the ‘of’ or ‘with’ COVID thing which I don’t believe he was doing. When they said because of Covid I presume they meant because of the pandemic. Your terminology of ‘died by suicide’ I would agree with. However I don’t believe the word ‘committed’ is mutually exclusive to crime or sin. Your comment is uneccesarily harsh especially given the sensitivity of an issue such as this.
@slfc21: Rmaybe I’m just irritated by the posters assumption that he knows the exact reason why 3 people took their lives, coupled by the irony that just the other day he was agreeing with the need for a full breakdown of 40 deaths and whether they died with, or because of covid and if they had under lying health conditions. I’m wondering why one category of deaths deserve our respect but not another. While my comments may be harsh I’m simply pointing out the irony. The pandemic or covid has not directly caused someone to take their own life. It may however be a contributing factor that compounded a person’s situation of mental health to reach this awful point. Using the same logic that is so often used on the journal which the poster agrees with when referring to covid deaths then poor mental health is an underlying health condition. So while some people may have taken a downward spiral due to isolation or loss of work or anxiety etc the recorded figures do not show a rise in suicide deaths, the pandemic therefore may be a contributing factor for certain individuals but it is not the cause of a rise in suicides because that rise does not exist.
@Rmaybe: I agree with all that as it happens. I’m unfamiliar with the original poster or their previous comments so there was no context to your original reply for me anyway . So maybe that’s just the way it came across.
@Hear me now: Firstly, the study isn’t saying that nobody took their own life because of the pandemic, it’s just saying that there were no more suicides during the pandemic than in previous years, in fact, as David Jordan points out, there was a decline in the number of suicides in many countries.
Secondly, nobody is saying that those who took their own lives are not being recognised – that’s your own inference.
Finally – with regards to your question ‘does there have to be a spike…’ do you not think its ironic that you have been one of the commenters on here regularly complaining that there is no spike on deaths from covid and/or the spike in deaths isn’t big enough to justify restrictions and/or the spike doesn’t matter if overall deaths stay the same or drop.
And here you are, adopting the very same arguments that you discount when they don’t suit your own particular bias.
@slfc21: absolutely fair point
@slfc21: “Committed Suicide” was a terminology given by the Catholic Church as a sin commited, they also placed a black cross on the person’s coffin whilst in the church to show the sin, of which happened to 2 of my relatives back in the 90s. The only crime committed in Ireland back then and now is the lack of services for those suffering with their mental health.
The fact is, we don’t know what the final straw was for each individual who has taken their own life! But this pandemic has knocked the crap out of everybody, so I can only imagine how people with mental health issues were affected.
I found the headline on this article to be very distasteful! A lot of the article talks about “numbers falling back in line” as if sucide has now been normalised. I am sure the families of suicide victims would have a lot more to say about the stat their loved one is counted in.
RIP to anyone who has lost their battle with mental health, and love to anybody who is currently going through that battle.
#YouAreMoreThanjustAStatistic
@Mark Sherwin: same goes for people who have died because of or with covid. The comments on the journal to these poor people have been incredibly distasteful over the last two years.
Because the government wants to forget about the vulnerable people in the community.
So if there is no attributable increase in suicidal deaths to covid restrictions,!those said restrictions did not have any impact on suicides.
Oh my good Lord. No compassion or reflection on those who took their own lives as a direct reaction to the absolute nonsense measures introduced an enforced here. Only count of their death was directly blamed on covid.
@Gavin Linden: Yes, it probably was a factor in their decision… But what about those who took their lives before the pandemic ever hapoened, or would these unfortunates have done the same had the pandemic not occurred. To tell the truth, I think it was as likely with or without the pandemic. The issue here is mental health and how it is treated in this country.
@Gavin Linden: I don’t think that’s what is being said. The conclusions aren’t that the pandemic was not a factor in suicides, the conclusion is that the pandemic did not cause an increase in suicides over previous years.
Cool. Feeling totally ignored.
@R: these are just statistics and not a way to diminish how people are feeling during Covid. I hear you.
Look over here Coveney needs a bit of a break……
In 2018 I had a failed attempt and end up in hospital. I spent 2 years fighting back and repairing my mind, fast forward to 2020 and I was finally doing okay. Then the pandemic hit, again I was doing okay, my mind was resting and everything felt peaceful, that was until these past few months, covid passports, restrictions, never ending cases. I’m one of those people who cant be vaccinated due to medical reasons, my husband and kids are vaccinated, right now we cant seem to do anything indoors as a family as I dont have a covid pass this I could manage, I pushed through but when they brought in covid passes for gyms this crippled me. One of the recovery plans given to me by my doctor and Pieta House was fitness, working out and exercise, yes I can do this at home,
@Denise Ni Mhathúna: I try to walk almost every day but nothing pushes you like a gym and my mind never feels more fixed or calm than when I have workout in a gym. These few weeks I have really struggled, my anxiety is at a high, I find myself crying most days, I’m paying €150 a week for private therapy to help me through this mess because I’ve worked hard not to try to give up on life again, but this really is hard and I’m struggling right now. How many more are like me but are afraid to speak out?
@Denise Ni Mhathúna: I feel terrible for you. Can’t advise but hang in there. We will see the sun again someday. You are not alone <3
@Denise Ni Mhathúna: do you take any medication that helps?
@Denise Ni Mhathúna: Best wishes for the future. If you can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons can you not get a medical certificate from your doctor that explains that you are exempt from the passport.
@Anna Carr: Thank you, pushing hard every day and I’m so lucky to have amazing family, friends and work colleagues supporting me. Hopefully we get out of this mess soon.
@Tom kenny: Unfortunately no, I manage to balance it with therapy, eating right and exercise but just the added pressure of the pandemic has made it a lot more challenging.
@Stephen Gill: The doctor had given me a letter to show a hotel that I had been given for my 40th birthday from my family and thankfully they accepted it, but under the present guidelines there are no such measures in place for those who cant be vaccinated due to medical reasons. For most we just got on with it and hoped for it to pass, but for many like myself who struggle with their mental health and use gyms especially in the cold, wet winter months it became very challenging as there is no exemption for anyone in my category.
An increase in services is a good thing. That means more people are seeking help and support. If there’s a huge increase in people seeking services and no jump in suicide rates then these services are doing a great job to support people. Well done to all as many of these people are volunteers and it is a relentless job.
A great study and one that as usual would totally vindicate the government. Where’s the study on the minimum unit alcohol? With most services at a standstill since Covid, where did they get the data on that? People with mental health issues can’t get proper treatment nor can people with addiction issues. If anything children in families with addiction problems will go hungrier, but that’s a working class problem – that’s their own fault according to FG. Earn more if you want to enjoy Tory Ireland or deal with it.
@Eoghan Augusta: furthermore I see the fact check on this is closed for discussion. That’s effectively how the government operates, “we tell you and that’s final”. Its anti-democratic and acting as a stealth tax. I know it’s a cold snap but it would be nice if FF FG and the Green wasters took their hands out of my pocket!
@Eoghan Augusta: All fact check articles are closed for comment – I’m not sure of the rationale for that but it’s consistently the case.
Perhaps it’s due to the fact that it’s a summary of actual findings as opposed to opinion (which I guess is the aim of a ‘fact check’ article) in which case, there’s not much to say on it.
Unless of course you disagree with the actual facts, in which case, you probably shouldn’t be airing your views in public?
@Lee King Buckett: You’re right I don’t always agree with their fact check. Unfortunately the journal is heavily lopsided towards the government as are RTE and the Irish Times. I’m not being a conspiracy theorist but why not publish a full article on how the extra revenue is going to be spent? Are there going to be brilliant new supports and services in addiction and mental health or homelessness – or will we just try make it unaffordable for people who are areas with socio economic problems? And just because somebody says something is fact – doesn’t mean you can’t question it. If you do believe everything without any questions maybe you should consider asking more questions!
@Eoghan Augusta: Indeed, questioning is always good but maybe not those questions as MUP is not a tax and the excess revenue won’t be going to the government but to the manufacturers and retailers.
@Eoghan Augusta: You’re correct. There are very few facts in the MUP article. There’s some evidence pointing both ways, some opinion, some conjecture and a final verdict of unproven so it is still very much up for debate and further discussion. Suicides are a little more clear cut as the data speaks for itself but even with that, data can often be twisted or misrepresented and so should also always be open to challenge and discussion.
@Declan Doherty: I can’t remember a single fact check article that allowed comments because it would be a complete mess if they did. Most of the fact check articles are about lunatic WhatsApp covid/lockdown/vaccine bogus misinformation.
@Mike Ruddy: how exactly would a coroner report a suicide as a covid death?
Even by taking the lower rates quoted, the suicide rate in Ireland is more than double the road deaths. Millions are spent, apparently successfully on road safety, and suicide needs to be addressed as a priority with coordinated support, counselling and ideation awareness campaigns at a national level.
It does feel heartless to talk about numbers but it’s important. We can’t have people with ulterior motives using sucides to suit their cause! Covid restrictions and lockdowns were and are important in our modern world. Not to stop covid becuase that can’t happen but to limit the effects. The focus around sucides should be on help for people suffering before it’s too late,not on rooting out every potential cause becasue that’s impossible and life is not like that. Help not blame, convenienatly or otherwise! imo
In the article above on new alcohol Pricing how do they know there will be no uptake in drugs when drugs are are sold illigally ,they have no handle on what amount of drugs are in the country ?
@Gerard Heery: if you read the article it said its possible but there’s no evidence from other places that have introduced MUP over the last number or years/decades BUT I will concede and everyone must concede Ireland is 100% an outlier in all of this, even more so than Scotland is. It will take 10 years of data from Ireland before the affect of MUP will be known on alcohol/drug sales.
The fact check article is accurate that when dealing with people it interviewed that stated those who never did drugs were extremely unlikely to switch from drink to drugs based on price alone. Makes sense. Again, this is data, it’s hard to argue with data, it might not be what people want to hear, but it’s data/statistics.
All I can give is anecdotes, but my own suicidal thoughts resurfaced during 2020 after I came terrifyingly close to taking that plunge in 2011 and successfully kept the mere suggestion out of my head for almost ten years. I posted about this publicly to my friends on social media and received a flood of DMs from others feeling similarly.
Whether or not it increased suicides, it most certainly increased suicidal *ideation*, and that is terrifying. Even more terrifying that the mental health implications of being asked to live like hermits for almost two years are literally never talked about at a high level by either officials or the media. “Reduce your social contacts, don’t meet anyone, stay two metres away from everyone, wash, rinse, repeat” – if you’re a single person who lives alone, you’re being asked to essentially live a life of solitary confinement with no end in sight. This has demonstrably devastating impacts on mental health, and should be a no-brainer.
The persistent downplaying of that is absolutely obscene.
@Mike Ruddy: Ah, OK so the medical professionals are now colluding with government and Big Pharma and all the other countries of the world to label suicide deaths as covid deaths just to fool us all for some reason that’s obviously only known to you and a select cabal of ‘do your own researchers’
What a load of bs. I’ve known more people who died by suicide over the pandemic then dieing of covid.
Data is data, wether you like it or not.
Oh my goodness how can they say that? I’ve never had a suicidal thought in my 55 years thank goodness, but through this I’ve certainly reached some very low days. This pandemic has been detrimental to mental health. That’s a terrible thing to say, just making a sweeping statement like that. It’s time they realised that Joe Public are not stupid. We know exactly what’s going on. Shame on whoever made that statement.
@Anna Carr: It’s not a statement Anna, it’s based on scientific research and evidence.
@Anna Carr: Did you read the article or just the headline?
@Anna Carr: so the CSO are doctoring the figures?
This is quite common during crisis and disasters.
Suicide rates go down, more community development, list goes on.
Sure, you’ll get the arseholes, and in these the waning days of Babylon, it seems like there are more (looking at you Jim Corr), but most people have started to help one another, depression, and I speak from personal experience, might be high but the strength to fight it is higher.
Ah sure any headbanger is allowed to make outrageous claims on line. Anyone got the loan of a rope please? I’m just going for a skip, don’t be nervous. If I don’t get a rope, I’ll have to go back to piggy beds, jaysus I hope I’m not losing my marbles, maybe I’m just going conkers?
@Sean O Callaghan: Red rover Red rover calls Sean over.
have your say