We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
Updated 10.21am
THE MINISTER FOR Education this morning hit out at the ASTI, whose members are today refusing to perform supervisory or substitution duties in schools across the country.
The Department of Education has said hundreds of schools are closed today as a result and speaking to RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, Minister Richard Brutan said:
It beggars belief that the ASTI would decide to close schools indefinitely about their decision to refuse to work one hour per week over the 33 weeks that they work.
He was referring to the additional free hours public servants are required to work under the public pay agreement – which members of the ASTI have not signed up to.
Bruton also accused the union of trying to “rewrite the entire approach to public pay in this dispute”.
He said accepting the Lansdowne Road agreement would trigger “very substantial gains” for the union’s membership, including payment for the duties they are today refusing to perform.
Speaking on the same radio show this morning, ASTI president Ed Byrne said today’s action has nothing to do with those 33 free ‘Croke Park’ hours the government wants them to work.
The ASTI says that teachers had agreed to forgo supervision and substitution payments for the duration of the Haddington Road Agreement but that that period is ended and they are now entitled to be paid for the duties.
Byrne argues the Department of Education is attempting to force the ASTI to adopt the Lansdowne Road Agreement.
No movement
The Department of Education says that when teachers stopped working the 33 free hours that they lost additional payments under the Lansdowne Road Agreement including payments for supervision and substitution.
“At the moment there is no movement from our side to enter Lansdowne Road and let’s be clear schools are shut today because the Department are trying to force us into Lansdowne Road, and for no other reason,” Byrne commented today.
He said the deal offered to garda associations last week after Labour Court consultation shows that “one size fits all is not always the best way”.
“Sometimes there has to be other deals and other agreements”.
As members stop performing supervisory or substitution duties, boards of management have taken individual decisions about whether schools are forced to close because of “health and safety issues”.
The Joint Managerial Body which advises and supports boards of management has advised 380 of its schools that the health and safety of children “paramount” and must be the main factor in determining if schools are to open without supervisory or substitution duties today.
The next official strike date is scheduled for tomorrow.
- With reporting by Michelle Hennessy.
Fact check – teachers have not only ceased receiving payment for s&s in September…. this has been going on for years. Under the croke park and Haddington road agreements, we did s&s for no extra pay in a bid to help our flailing economy recovery. Under Haddington road, in return for fulfillment of this agreement the department of education said that beginning in September 2016, they would reinstate payment for s&s. Members of the asti fulfilled the terms of the Haddington road agreement but we have not received the promised payment for doing s&s, unlike our colleagues in the tui. The department of education’s line is that this is because we have not signed up to the landsdown road agreement. However, under Haddington road there was no caveat stating that payment promised for s&s would only be given if teachers signed up to the next agreement.. now the government keep saying they will give payment for s&s if asti members sign up to landsdown road. But consider this – why would we sign up to another agreement when our government have breached the terms of the last one? No teacher wants to be out of work today. I care about my students deeply and I work hard to try and ensure that they achieve their full potential. However, principles are important and it is in now way fair to expect teachers – or any public sector workers – to allow the government to walk all over them and bully them into submission. It would be nice if the media reported the facts accurately and some of the information in the article is sadly off point and untrue. Please support the teachers
What would the downside be if signing the LA though? And not the airy fairy nonsense of they didn’t fulfill the last one. Practically what would it mean? Thesr strikes aren’t good as it tends to have people focus on other areas such as your pensions which you are getting very cheaply.
4 main Downsides for me;
Any educational initiative supported by the government has to be implemented. This is therefore the altered Junior Cert by the back door. There are serious issues with the changes.
Must continue Croke park hours which in the majority of cases are extremely unproductive and a waste of time. No allowance for extra curricular activities can be taken from these.
Continued lower pay scale for LPTs, at the moment they start approx €7000 lower than pre 2011 teachers. LRA continues this for 3 more years with only a claw back of €2000. This €2000 was inserted after ASTI and TUI voted against LRA. There this shows changes can be made to LRA.
Doing S&S for about €1.20 a day. We must do about 1 hour of yard supervision and we must be on call for 9 periods of substitution. That amounts to 4.5 hours per week for €6. This
Must be the worst deal ever stuck by a teaching union.
@lavbeer: The teachers don’t require your approval or permission to engage in industrial action. Strikes are a very good way for workers to ensure they’re not walked all over. It’s a pity we didin’t have a wave of strikes when the bank bailout was first proposed by FF/Greens and we may not be crushed under a mountain of odious banking debt now.
Odious what now? Yawnnn.
Imagine doing something in your job that you don’t get paid for, if the private sector pulled this trick the entire country would come to a stand still.
@Lisa Harold: Equal pay for equal work is the slogan I see on posters everywhere & who could argue with that? If that is what ASTI really want then I support them 100% & the soloution is obvious. Do away with the increment system.
Let there be a flat rate, say €45,000 for the basic job of teaching. Pay extra for posts of responsibility, supervision, marking exams, degrees etc.
This way younger teachers who need a pay boost to allow them buy houses & raise families get what they need while those who have their families raised & mortgages paid take a hit.
I’m not suggesting pay cuts per se for the top earners, they could sit where they are till the younger teachers catch up, but as I see it the outdated increment system is the real evil here & is responsible for far more pay inequality than anything else.
@Alex Murray: And that’s exactly what the private sector should do unless they wish to continue being trampled on.
Thanks Eric – nice to see a straight answer. Does the TUI have the same issues with the JC changes?
@alex Murray, teachers are contracted to teach up to 22 hours per week. We all work extra hours outside of this, correcting homework, planning, meeting parents in our own time, doing cpd and being involved in extra curricular activities such as training teams, gaisce, student council, debating and so on. None of us are asking for payment for any of this extra work that is not part of our contracted hours. What we are asking for is payment for work that some of our colleagues are being paid for while we are expected to do it fit free. Would you do something for free in your job that a coworker is being paid for? I doubt it very much
If you withdraw your labour in the private sector Billy they withdraw your job, it’s time the public sector came into the real world with the rest of us
@Lisa Harold: Your colleagues are being paid because they have signed up to the LRA.
@Alex Murray: Not really. The Luas drivers withdrew their Labour recently and got a hefty payrise in return. The lesson is clear. Join a union and fight or prepare to be walked on. In the real world, the working class which depends on the goodwill of capital or the governments which serve capital will be mercilessly exploited.
Billy why don’t you organise a strike in your place of work?
@eric nelligan: I’d like to see a fact check on “Doing S&S for about €1.20 a day. We must do about 1 hour of yard supervision and we must be on call for 9 periods of substitution. That amounts to 4.5 hours per week for €6.”
And, as for “This must be the worst deal ever stuck by a teaching union” – you could well be right – but penalising students and parents over your cack-handed union is going the wrong way about it: why not bill the union for the shortfall if it’s they who fu’d it up on you ?
@Patrick Gough: Will you join me on the picket line?
Teachers and unions are ruining the country. Pure scrum. You wont stop until you bring down the government and cause more uncertainty for normal people and the country.
Patrick, Billy doesn’t work I’d imagine he sponges of the state paid for by you and me
Ah shut up Alex with your public/private sector crap. All workers are entitled to strike or seek better pay. You have obviously chosen to work in private sector and good luck to you but don’t expect us all to just take what we’re given without seeking better pay or conditions
How are they penalising students and parents John?? Your attitude sums up the public attitude to teachers whereby they are viewed as glorified babysitters. They have tried negotiating for what they want and the government refuse to listen
@Alex Murray: You know as little about me as you do about the class divide and how capitalism is based on the exploitation of the majority working class.
You obviously have never driven a truck for a living or worked in the hotel or pub industry Alex.
I know alex. I was being sarcastic.
I have been involved in .any strikes as a member of the etu we had a strike against the esb. as a member of the ibeo(international brotherhood of electrical workkers) we wobbled the job in syncrude alberta. We closed the pulp mill in Dawson city. so how many strikes were you involved in billy.
@Justin Gillespie: the system of % payments has a lot to answer for, if there is a 10% increase a person on 100 a week gets 10 euro extra where as a person on 200 a wee gets 20 extra which through time increases the devide between the lower payed and the higher….
@Billy Mooney: Sounds like a date. I’ll bring the champagne. xoxoxo
Are teachers not normal people too? They also have lives outside of school, bills to pay like everyone else and shock horror, many are parents themselves!
We all need pay rises because of the ridiculous high cost of living this shambolic gov has created, and they’d give themselves one in a heartbeat.
@Adrian: Of course they would why would they change the habit of a lifetime …”.the boys always look after the boys”
Inflation is non existent. Jog on teacher
It’s €1500+ pm to rent a house in Dublin. Jog on mouthpiece. Solidarity with the teachers and all workers struggling to obtain a greater share of the wealth which they create.
Show me where inflation is non existent cos I’m not a teacher and need a pay rise just to cover the increase in house insurance and car insurance. Food prices creeping up, increases in childcare costs, basic essentials like central heating servicing all up. A few quid here and there is like death by 1000 cuts and a pay rise would be just to stand still compared to 2/3 years ago
Well Im not sure whether I need a pay rise or not. But Im not getting any. The final payrise was about 10 years ago and I have still 10 years to go in my job. My pension is absolute crap but I have no representation at all. And no right to strike I’ve been kindly told by my employer that I’m outside the pay scale that was not negotiated. So teachers I appreciate your pain a little:-)
Trough pig Billy this is early for even you ? Did your comrades run out of champers last night ?
It’s never too early to deal with the parasite mouthpieces such as yourself Moon.
It must be getting a little disheartening for you to see the workers begin to win battle after battle? Water charges (banker tax), Luas, Dublin Bus, Gardai, teachers etc etc etc.
Billy your ‘workers winning battles’ are like suicide bombers – success is kinda a double-edged sword. But don’t you worry your lil head about the negative consequences of pay rises all over the public sector – your gang of AAA-PAAARRRP will never have to deal with actual governance of the country.
@Colin Moran: The consequences of a workers winning a payrise generally is a reduction in the profits of capital owners. My lil head isn’t too worried about that I’ll grant you. And nor should yours.
Paying all workers a decent wage is in the interests of the vast majority. Business in general wants its customers to have as much money in their pockets as possible to purchase their products and services and generate revenue and profit. In contrast, each individual firm wants to pay their workers as little as possible to reduce costs in order to maximize profit. In the macro economy, the workers ARE the customers and this glaring contradiction is lost on the slavering neo liberals eternally demanding wage cuts and ‘flexibility’ in the labour market.
It’s always aggregate demand and spending through the whole economy that ultimately creates and maintains jobs. Someone’s spending is always someone else’s job and income as the macro economy is circular. It is the aggregate spending of everyone in the economy, public, private, individuals and businesses that maintains and creates employment. We have seen the result of slashed government and private sector spending over the past 8 years of Austerity reflected in our massive dole queues, planes full of emigrants and mounting social problems such as the homelessness crisis.
And before you say it. Increasing the amount of money in circulation through increasing worker’s pay does not cause inflation unless there is a shortage of goods & services to purchase with the additional money. And there is no shortage of virtually any real goods and services in the modern economy with the exception of property. (another catastrophic failure of the free market for the majority)
This is so because private firms are quantity adjusters if they have spare output capacity. In order to maintain market share, they will increase output (and employment) to meet the increased demand which occurs when workers have more money in their pockets. Only if demand increases beyond the output capacity of the economy will firms increase prices. We are nowhere close to this point with the economy operating well below peak capacity with mass unemployment and underemployment.
so the capitalists owners of the education system is who billy?
@Patrick Gough: The Irish government controls the education system and all governments have served the interest of private capital since the foundation of the state,. That’s why they bailed out the private sector banks and slashed public sector pay and everyone’s social services to pay for it. Join the dots like good lad……….
Are we the tax payer not paying the teachers?
@Jarrett moon:
8 years of a pay freeze and wages cut by up to 16%
This is just the start of a full scale fight back
Don’t book a hoilday for next year as you will need your annual leave to mind the kids
@Patrick Gough: You’re also paying the government TDs but they’re taking your money while deliberately exploiting you and the working class as de facto policy. And they will continue to do so until the working class orgainse and put a stop to it.
I do not agree with the teachers but to say inflation is non existent is a laugh.Most items are the same price all right just less in the packet or bottle.
struggling on €32 per hour. ?? really ??
what’s your hourly rate ?? €30 something an hour. try work all year like the rest of us !!
@Billy Mooney: “Solidarity with the teachers and all workers struggling to obtain a greater share of the wealth which they create.”
What wealth, exactly, and in monetary terms, do the teachers create? And please don’t offer the future earnings and tax revenue of their schoolchildren argument.
Much better to argue that teachers do an important job in and of itself – education – than to talk in spurious terms about creating wealth.
I’m not a teacher but I’d say after tax about 16e per hour
@Dr Richard DeWitt: An education system is a form of real wealth, a vitally important one as without it we would soon run out of skilled labour required to support human society.
It’s important to differentiate between money and real wealth/ resources. Money is how we measure wealth and also a claim on society’s resources. Our fiat currency money is created (and deleted) at will on the computer keyboards of the world’s commercial and central banks. At a macro level there can never be a shortage of a fiat floating currency like the Euro, sterling dollar etc.
In contrast to the instant availability of money, the real wealth of goods and services that we all depend on is created by the labour and skill of the working class from the raw material of the planet. Everything from the food in our bellies to the clothes on our backs right up to the most sophisticated technology is made by the workers.
Money is a claim on that real wealth produced by the working class and this is where money derives it’s power. The capitalist system peddles the illusion that there is a shortage of money (balance the books, reduce the deficit, live within your means etc) in order to oppress and control the working class who are the real creators of wealth. Fundamentally money is just a tool to measure and allocate the real resources which society has produced collectively .The entities which issue the currency can never run out money in the same way as a carpenter cannot run out of inches.
And the working class has produced more than enough real resources to provide everyone on the planet with proper nutrition, a decent home, healthcare, education, recreation and a job. It’s a political and ideological choice to deny people these basics.
@Billy Mooney:
You out fighting for your leader Ruth’s pay rise? What a greedy lot these AAA politicians are. Not content with one salary but making sure the other is well topped up for when Coppinger gets kicked out of the Dail by the electorate. You claim to be standing up for the working man, judging by all the posts on this site from you, not much work being done by you, Mr. Wally Mooney now is there?
Such craven double-speak yet again Billy – the AAA ‘only take the average industrial wage’ but then use the remainder to fund whatever campaign they want to – SO THEY TAKE THE FULL SALARY THEN YOU CLOWN!
Using the ‘excess’ over and above the average wage for whatever purposes you want is taking benefit of that extra money as surely as spending it on champagne or legal fees.
And again Collie. Precisely No apologies for using state finances to fight for the working class. So keep coughing up your taxes like a good lad to help us in the battle :)
Shill Bill. God Billy you run out of grandiose communist speak when you are outed as the turd smoking con artist that you really are.
Good work Colin Moran good work Alan Cooke. He resorts to pure aggression when you point out shill bills contradictory betrayals.
And you keep forking over your taxes too Moon to help us fight for the working class :). How does it feel to know some of your money went to the campaign that sank your water charges ( banker tax ) plans?
Shill Bill, did you like it when your taxes were use to support the banking system to protect your vast trust fund wealth ?!? You cannot wash your euros clean with all the “working class” causes you claim to support. Putting up posters isn’t really support anyway.
@Dr Richard DeWitt: Every time one hears a government official or someone from The IDA or Enterprise Ireland speaking about the reasons International Firms come to Ireland the great educational system is trotted out.Teachers would perhaps say that THAT is your answer.
Yet again Wally, it only takes a few prods of logical counter argument to provoke your bile.
You’re the best thing that could happen to normal capitalist society as your irredeemable nonsense on behalf of the (equally) morally bankrupt AAA-PBP makes a complete laughing stock of your fairytales.
I take some small comfort from watching your almost continual accumulation of red thumbs at practically every comment you make on here, signifying the vast majority of ordinary people think you are either a disgrace or a joke.
Bless Collie you’re a pitiful creature. I consider the red thumbs from the brainless like yourself and the government hacks to be a badge of honour. And I can’t be doing much harm to the AAA – PBP as we’re up 3 points to 9% in the latest polls. So you’ll soon be paying even more of your taxes for our TDs wages and more battles in defense of the working class :) Sweet.
Bahahahaaaaa! 9%! Wowsers. That’s awesome Wally.
Keep telling yourself you’re doing well.
In the meantime, loons like CoppMinger and Toady Murphy will make us all roll our eyes and snicker into our Financial Times.
There you go folks. Shill Bill has admitted that he is a leech. Has a problem for every solution and an expansionist mindset. Not dissimilar to those nihilists in Syria ?!?
Teachers dont create wealth. Too many bad ones clogging up the system
Some light in Minister’s contribution this morning. He will pay for S&S if teachers do Croke Park hours. He promised flexibility in the use of these hours. Why not allow these hours to be used for extra-curricular activities such as school musicals, dramas, games, etc. ? Then pay the teachers the promised S&S money without prejudice to any other matters in dispute. Classes could immediately resume and other issues dealt with separately.
@Gearoid O Ciarain:
Teachers probably wouldn’t be happy with doing extra-curricular activity for inclusion in CP hours, as “acequion” said in the following post.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057655461&page=48
“I’ve said this countless times and I’ll say it again. A lot of teachers don’t do extras for a variety of reasons. Some just don’t want to. Which is perfectly fine. Some are older and tiring and don’t have the energy. Also perfectly fine. Some have their own family commitments. Again perfectly fine. Basically it is always fine to choose not to do voluntary extras.
Now if these voluntary extras become a part of CP what are the chunk of teachers above supposed to do?
Personally I did my time in extra curriculars when I was a young teacher. These days I do little extra except for coaching my students for the orals whenever I have 6th year French. And tbh I do that because I want to. I’d feel differently if someone was looking over my shoulder counting up the hours.
So for those very reasons, if I am forced against my will to do extra I’d prefer something that requires zero effort,such as listening to a boring speaker.
If CP hours have to continue then the fairest is to use them for necessary meetings only. Having “flexible” but forced extra hours will only lead to a lot of resentment and pressure in the long run.”
@Ciarán Masterson: So some teachers are ‘old and tiring’? Some have family commitments? You’re talking about less than one hour per week, for less than 35 weeks per year. Do you seriously think that there is any justification for this?
If someone is too tired or too busy to give this tiny bit extra, they should leave, there are plenty of young, energetic, newly qualified teachers who would happily take their place.
@Gearoid O Ciarain: the government opened the door to the gardai in their greed now the country is on the run ..shame on this government .. we can see what is marshal law would have taken them gardai to reality and the people would act for good over evil …
So he’ll pay as agreed to, for the work we’ve been doing for free if we do more hours for free..
@Harry Price: *martial
I don’t think this could be any clearer. I’ve covered absent colleagues due to extra-curricular activities (schools are very busy places) for the last 3 years without getting paid. I’ve supervised the canteen, corridors, places of congregation etc. during my breaks/lunch for the past 3 years, also for free. These duties are over and above teaching 35 classes per week. This was because the ASTI democratically decided to sign up to the Haddington Road Agreement. (HRA). The HRA contained in its terms that for performing these duties for 3 years without payment there would be a Payment of €790 in September 2016 and a further payment of €790 in September 2017. This has not happened. The HRA did not say that signing up to the Lansdowne Road Agreement (LRA) was a pre-condition to receiving this payment. We therefore democratically decided to withdraw from performing these duties due to the government not honouring the payment contained in HRA. Finally, these hours have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the 33 “Croke Park” after-school hours. The govt. is wrong in tying Supervision & Substitution (S&S) terms and payment to these. Teachers obliged to do S&S are required to do 43 hours of this. Due to govt. reneging on its payment in lieu of S&S we withdraw from these duties from today. Sorry for rambling on but stating the facts takes time as opposed to some curt, uninformed media comment.
periods
John in most European countries is it not expected that teachers work 35-40 hours each week between actual teaching and extra curricular activities? Teachers do on average 750 hours of teaching a year while the average worker does 1850 hours. Let that sink in for the average working person, unbelievable the sense of entitlement and down right laziness you have! As other posters have pointed out, if the private sector had the same sense of entitlement about getting paid for every unpaid job we do the country would collapse. Also end this increment crap and let’s start judging teachers on performance.
Does LRA not ease FEMPI austerity measures though, increments, pension levy easing etc.? Bringing the whole system to a halt, impacting students, parents because of €790 seems a bit extreme. If you got your S&S money you still wouldn’t sign-up to LRA presumably so what would the next reason to shut schools be?
And how would you judge “performance” paulj??? Is it exam results only?? If so you’ve no comprehension of the job teachers do
So you can be brutal at your job and still have money in the form of increments thrown at you? Therein lies the problem in a nutshell.
Take the chip off your shoulder sean..if you believe there are teachers ” brutal” at their job then there are procedures there to report them. But this lazy narrative that teachers get increments and don’t deserve them is crap. I asked how would you judge if teachers deserve increments and nobody answered yet
So every teacher deserves an increment all of the time because they are all over performing? Wow! Why should the public have to ‘report’ bad teachers? What do principals, assistant principals, inspectors etc do? Again the problem summed up in a nutshell.
I don’t have any sense of entitlement as you suggest. Were I lazy in my work I would soon be called out on it by parents and the kids and young adults I teach. You will probably thumb down my reply but I seek to articulate my point of view in this matter. I enjoy every facet of my teaching work, every day, every week and I feel privileged to do the work I do. We do “only” teach 22 hours per week. But most nights a week, the odd Saturday and on Sundays I spend hours upon hours preparing class material, marking assignments and correcting copies. It’s an essential important part of my job but it’s work that you and others don’t see and undervalue. It’s of utmost importance to my students and of course their parents, whereby they can judge & make decisions on their own learning, critically important for later life. I also undertake Extra-Curricular hours and up until now I’ve been doing an extra hour per week with my LC higher level students because I want to and wish to provide them with every opportunity for success. CP hours are a huge burden on teachers, their time and ultimately on the time they can spend on valuable teaching & assessment-related work on behalf of their students. I’ve already explained the situation regarding S&S in a previous post. I do not apologise for the job I do and the salary I earn as a result of this work. Your use of words like “laziness” and “entitlement” to bash an entire profession is undignified, shameful and inexcusable.
… In reply to comments by PaulJ.
The government expects everyone to work for nothing. But they pay themselves very handsomely, give themselves huge expenses just for turning up to work, and as for pensions. Then there’s corporate welfare, and Dennis’s welfare.
It’s gone way beyond the time ordinary people started to put themselves first. The government wont, that’s not on the agenda.
Work for nothing? Av teachers hourly rate is €50/hr – I’d hardly call that working for nothing.
@shits ville: Its all about driving down wages public and private so the shareholders and their ruling minions can keep their mouth in the trough.
They voted against getting paid for the extra hours , so they ended up doing them voluntarily and now they’re on strike.. they only work about 7/8 months of the year.. I’m definitely not with the teachers on this , disrupting the lives of so many because of something they orchestrated..
@Fionn Bohane: This causes issues for anyone one who works in a school, sna’s, secretary, caretaker etc. SNA’s have to be available for I think 72 hrs FREE work each year at the decression of the principal. No one even mentions the SNA who go over & above the call of duty where in primary schools they often take on the role of a teacher assisting children with all class work. This is because the teacher can’t at times get around to every child in the class especially the child who is falling behind or the child who is top of the class. I know that SNA’s are no teachers before anyone gets on my case. But we all know that they don’t just sit back & do nothing when the child/children they are assigned to require them at the moment. My point is don’t forget the other people who work in schools who are mixed up in this through no fault of their own. Students should be able to organise study sessions with their friends as they can organise social outings at the drop of a hat.
What would one expect , teachers should try working in the private sector or self employed for two or three years & then they would realise how good they have it & how well paid they are .
@Fionn Bohane:
They were never going to get paid for the CP hours. They’re not being paid for S&S because they didn’t accept LRA and so they cannot obtain the benefits of a collective agreement.
Refusal to do the CP hours isn’t about the money.
This has a lot to do with union power. It’s more an inter union dispute. These highly paid union officials have to be seen doing something different for there members. 3 unions doesn’t work.
@Martin Sinnott: That is about as informed as the ministers comment, referring to the Croke Park hours which are completely different to S&S. Three unions represent very different teaching grades.
@Una Dunphy: Not really Una. The Croke Park hours are different to the S&S, but if the ASTI sign up to the LRA, and work these hours, they will be paid for S&S. The Croke Park hours, and the refusal by the ATSI to work them, are a fundamental part of this dispute.
And the three unions do not represent different ‘grades’. While the NAPD represents second-level principals and deputy-principals, the ASTI and TUI are both represent second-level teachers.
Headline should read
“Schools forced to close as government reneged on payment for S&S”
The continuation of the Croke Park hours were part & parcel of the Lansdowne Road Agreement – the ASTI did not sign up to it so why are they even being mentioned here?
@jean mc connell: Or how about: “Schools forced to close because teachers want to get paid more to do what they’re supposed to do in the first place”? I know it’s a bit more Zoolander than your one, but I’m happy that it captures the reality quite well…
Sack the greedy shower of F
Just pay them properly for the work they’re doing, simple isn’t it?
€50/hr isn’t proper pay?
Would it be too much to assume no one gets paid for today considering they’re not actually teaching?
No its not actually… as part of the government’s divide and conquer tactics, teachers who are tui members will get paid even if they are not teaching today because their school is closed…
Can I assume ASTI member will not get paid? Genuine question.
According to the department of education’s, asti members will not be paid. A circular released almost two weeks ago states that we will be removed from payroll actually. Further evidence of bully boy tactics by the government.
Great. It good to see the dept standing up and being counted for a change. Funny you should mention bullying because the last time I was bullied it was by ASTI member’s about 20 years ago when we were all regularly beaten to s pulp in school.
I’m sorry that you had a bad experience at school. However, I don’t understand why you appear to think that the rest of us should be punished for that person’s behaviour.
Mick teachers will have to get paid today I suspect as it is the schools that is making the call. Tomorrow is different as it is a strike day.
Good – don’t expect to be paid if you won’t turn up for work!!!
I am turning up for work actually…. I’m just going to be locked out… you know, for refusing to do work that some teachers are paid for but I’m being expected to do for free even though the government were supposed to start paying me for it in September.
Asti members are turning up to school this morning available to work but are being locked out. Therefore they are not paid.
Being available to work and refusing to work are separate things. They are refusing to do S&S.
@Judi Lennon: @Lisa Harold: Why are ASTI members turning up for work? Did they not the letter/memo/texy about schools being closed? Did they not read the news? Turning up for work when they know that the schools are not open and that there is no one to teach seems a bit silly doesn’t it?
Isn’t that only right Lisa. If you are not on strike but you can’t do your job because the school is closed you should be paid.
But the school is only closed because you are refusing to do your job. Why should you be paid for refusing to do your job? It’s like a bricklayer turning up on site and refusing to lay bricks but expecting to be paid.
@Sean @114: I would like to clarify that I am not a teacher, private sector actually. I fully support the teachers in this. The Govt. are trying to twist this so that the teachers lose public support. The Teachers are not refusing to do their job, they are refusing to work hours for which they are not paid. The Govt. knew this issue was coming a long time ago and had plenty of time to make cover plans but did nothing as per usual. The Dept directed the Boards of management to close schools, this is not the Teachers fault. The fault lies directly with the Govt.
Good man Andy. Educate yourself. All teachers are turning up today. The boards of management in schools are making the decision
Why are they making the decision?
Which they weren’t getting paid for anyway.
They did show up for work
Our politicians say they’re entitled to a pay rise. Story in the indo today saying a hard brexit will cost ireland 13 billion. A small amount compared to how much FF cost the country for their handing of the financial crash and how much FG are costing the country in giving multinationals and vulture funds tax breaks.
Fact check: the teachers are striking because they’ve been asked to work an extra 8 minutes per day, yes you read that correctly, 8 minutes per day. The sickener is, they’re already at work, in the building so I don’t see the problem.
Teachers: get your lazy, good for nothing arses back to work – the country is against you!!!
Fact check Andy. It is a lot more than 8 minutes. I don’t get to eat lunch on Thursdays and covering an extra 40 minute class can mean not having the time to use the toilet for the entire day. No teacher is ever asked to cover just 8 mins of lunch or 8 mins of a 40 min class??
No Andy, you’re against them. You’re not a country.
Another fact check – teachers didn’t close the schools and are not on strike – it’s the schools management and government who have closed schools in an attempt to turn public opinion against the teachers
@Foyser: I’m sorry, but I miss a minimum of one lunch per week in order to facilitate customers, often more. And as for not having time to go to the toilet – really ? from the profession that brought us ‘cead agam dul amach go dtí an leithreas ” ?
@Foyser:
“I don’t get to eat lunch on Thursdays and covering an extra 40 minute class can mean not having the time to use the toilet for the entire day.”
If you need to go, you have to go or else you’ll become seriously ill and then you’ll be of no help to your pupils.
Why don’t you ask your principal to place you on the S&S roster on days when you have free periods in your timetable so that you can have a short lunch break and go to the toilet? Your principal has a duty of care towards you and I’m sure that he or she will not want to incur the wrath of the union.
If you read the original comment I was replying to I wasn’t complaining.I was simply highlighting that the S&S is not 8minutes a week. That is all I am saying. Also I teach Science and Maths so that phrase isn’t so relevant to me…however I can add ..the S&S is more than 8mins per week. And lower paid teachers are earning 200K less over their careers.
This is a lock out. ASTI is seen as a soft target for a bit of Thatcherite union bashing.
The neo-liberal sw1ne are coming out of the woodwork this morning.
Support the teachers!
@Rory Stafford: I’m not a teacher but I do support our teachers and every worker in this Country with a right to strike and ask for what they believe to be their rights. And your right it is a lock out by bully boy Bruton!
Blackmailing students is no way to teach anybody how to solve issues that you are not happy with.
How are students being blackmailed?
It’s the teachers who are being blackmailed by government/school management decisions to close the schools because of supervision of lunch breaks and substitution. Closing the schools for “health and safety ” reasons? What a load of excrement that it is –
it’s classic FG bullying tactics. They try this sort of thing every time instead of using genuine negotiations to resolve disputes. Even if these tactics work, do they think the teachers will just give up? Do they seriously think other unions will not push for their own pay restoration in case these twits in FG might try bullying them too?
@Dave Harris:
“Health and safety” rules do not prevent teachers from doing supervision and substitution on an unpaid basis – which they did until 2002.
The whole thing is getting more farsical by the minute. Hopefully asti have enough money to pay the striking teachers…… after all is that not why they pay union subs.
It beggars belief that the minister would allow schools to close indefinitely rather than follow through on the promises made in the Haddington road agreement. The minister should have been faithful to those promises rather than holding them as ransom to force unions to sign the Lansdowne road agreement. If the minister had negotiated in good faith we would not be in this mess in the first place.
ASTI teachers are not on strike today. Schools are closed because of the madness of ” Health and Safety ” rules. This is the madness that has overtaken all industry and all works in recent years. When I was at school we got a ball at break time and we tore into a game, and I hardly ever seen anyone getting hurt. At Boarding School years ago there was never supervisors standing over us while we kicked the s..t out of each other at soccer or gaelic or rugby. All this supervision in more recent years was done for free. Half of it would suffice.
@Eugene Comaskey:
It’s not just about the risk of accidental injury – it’s also about the risk of vulnerable pupils being bullied by other pupils. Lack of supervision may increase the risk of physical and psychological harm to victims of bullying. There would be an outcry if a victim committed suicide because of bullying that was allowed to take place by lack of supervision.
They choose to keep schools closed today, even where there were TUI members who are doing S&S . The Dept. Are trying to make this thing worse. Why were Office Staff and Caretakers not working today.?. Gates appear to have been locked at schools .
An important point which hasn’t been mentioned is that TUI members are getting paid for s and s and ASTI members are not. The government are trying to strong arm ASTI members by withholding pay. The minister is attempting to divide and conquer. I work in a dual union school so half the staff are getting paid for S and S and the rest are expected to do it for free. So the ASTI has advised it’s members not to do s and s. Particularly when they are quite happy to pay TUI members and even members of the public for doing it.
It’s very simple, pay all teachers for s and s, not just TUI members and the schools can resume operation. The issues of equal pay for new teachers and the new JC can be sorted separately.
It is the minister’s fault, and the minister’s fault alone that school’s aren’t open today.
@Roonec25: We all know this. We also know that the NQTs in the TUI are are being paid more. We also know that it’s because the ASTI are refusing to sign up to the LRA, whereas the TUI (along with 22 other public sector unions) have. What really beggars belief is that teachers are still maintaining ASTI membership.
@Roonec25:
If the minister continued to pay ASTI members for S&S then there’d be no incentive for the ASTI to accept the Landsdowne Road Agreement (LRA). The Croke Park hours themselves don’t save money but other public-sector workers would cry foul if teachers were let away with not doing those hours – considering that some public-sector workers are doing many more hours than what are expected from teachers – and so LRA would collapse and the public finances would be in danger.
@EvieXVI: I’m happy to be in the ASTI. I don’t believe in the new JC reforms and I feel strongly that my younger colleagues should be paid the same as the rest of us. I’m happy to do croke park hours and even s and s for free. I’m a teacher because I feel passionate about education. And I for one, am glad that the ASTI are not backing down.
@Roonec25: You’re happy to do croke park hours and even s and s for free? But aren’t you (as an ASTI member) refusing to do both? And isn’t it your refusal to sign up to the LRA condemning NQTs, who would benefit immediately if you did sign up?
It would be nice if the media could let people know about the proposed JC cycle the government is trying to push through as part of the LRA. All the public hear is withdrawal of S&S. There is fault on both sides, and both will have to compromise. The Government is hoping that prolonged closure will turn the public against the teachers.
@EvieXVI: NQTs will not receive full pay equality under the new LRA. And I’m not happy to sign up to new JC reforms. So yes, ASTI are not signing up to the LRA which includes croke park hours and everything else. So it’s not that teachers are opposed to croke park hours or s and s.
Fg have schools closed down not teachers.fg arrogance has no bounds.
@@mdmak33:
Well, if the teachers don’t show up for work, you kinda gotta blame the teachers don’t ya…?
If there is an allegation that the government has welshed on a deal, then that’s a separate issue that has nothing to do with direct responsibility for closing schools. It’s logic really.
The teachers are acting like spoiled childeren… because they are spoiled. But how can the goverment resist their claims when they folded and gave in to the spoiled gardai .you reap what you strike for
@Upowthat Burke: You see similarity between spoiled children and the teachers that provide an integral public service who’re being scammed out of their hard earned cash by a government rife with corruption that will happily spend hundreds of millions on useless consulting firms and give illegal tax breaks to foreign multinationals and then claim they can’t cough up the cash to pay their destitute public sector?
@Michael O’Dwyer Connolly: Destitute? You do know that destitute means ‘without money, food, a home, or possessions’? There are plenty of people in this country who are destitute, but I doubt that there are any employed in the public sector.
Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world.
- €48,430 Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale
- €35,500 top of scal EU average
- €36,415 top of scale OECD average
Second 167 day academic year is well below the 180-day EU average and the 183-day OECD average.
@Neuville-Kepler62F: You may want to add some context to that, living costs here are well above the European average, we’re one of the most expensive nations in the whole EU. These averages you’ve found include the Mediterranean and Eastern countries, where salaries are much lower but so are living costs and often taxes. For example a weeks worth of grocery shopping in Italy or Spain might be half or even a third the cost that it is here, while their salaries are 60% to 80%% of ours. So in the end the ratio of living costs to wages here is far worse than in many countries on the continent.
@neuville top of payscale in Ireland is €62,264 – not a miserly €48,430!
@Sville: you are right the MAX of the teacher scale is €62,264
But for fair comparison purposes the teachers pay has been “adjusted” to allow for cost of living across the OECD and EU countries. So
- €48,430 is the equivalent Irish teachers top of the pay scale
- €35,500 is the equivalen top of scale EU average
- €36,415 is the equivalent top of scale OECD average
So no argument can be made re cost of living, taxes etc, etc.
Also second Level 167 day academic year is well below the 180-day EU average and the 183-day OECD average.
The Government has no Money … it belongs to you, the Taxpayer.
Public Service (incl Politicians) pay needs to be signed off by the Taxpayers ….
https://www.facebook.com/Irish-Taxpayers-Forum-162371987496881/
No wonder young Irish people can’t afford to put a roof over their heads on one income : €76,000 artificially added (mostly tax to pay for PS pay) to the cost of a basic first time home … obscene
https://www.change.org/p/referendum-on-right2home-in-ireland
It’s not one hour Richard. It’s 45 supervision and up to 3 40 minute class periods substitution per wk. you’d imagine the minister would at least know the basics of S&S
Foxtrot Oscar to the ASTI..and all who sail in her…I am sick of greedy public service union blackmail and the GIME GIME GIME attitude
@CJ Stewart: You sound like you popped right out of some Reagan loving neoliberal economic conference. The public service is integral to the well being and viability of our society. It is the governments duty to pay them a reasonable wage and stick to their promises on wages. It;s not a “gime gime gime” attitude, it’s more of a ‘give us what you promised us and stop destroying the public sector please’ attitude,
@Michael O’Dwyer Connolly: a reasonable wage…? ? ? One of the best paid public servants in europe..and they still want more from a country thats up to their eye balls in debt
It’s amazing that anyone that strikes or refuses to do extra duties for free it’s in no way the fault of the government they are actually hilarious thinking that they sit bk and wait it out the opposition are just as bad sitting on they’re hands and putting no pressure on gotta love Irish politics I get in get huge wages get more time off than I know what to do with and any problems blame the workers ha ha ha ha what a country to be a politician in…take a bow fg ff aaa and the rest
Payments was ended was dey? Fab app, but the writing.. arghghgh! I guess free is free.
The ASTI is invested with ultra-left members who dominate every Union meeting: bullies its full time officials and officers and opposes comprise and settlements. Today they are in their element.
Think it is disgraceful that the students are being used as pawns in this dispute. I have to comment on the amount of free classes my son has in secondary school, one day he had four free classes, I wonder who does the supervision if these free classes. I can’t remember ever having four free classes in school and I would love to know if these are included in the supervision pay.
If the TDS give up 5000 this would go a long away in the public eyes
It beggars belief because they didn’t close them, you did you blue shirted tosser.
liars.
Can these hours not be added on to the timetable, not sure how this would work for teachers who are not on full hours, but I am contracted to teach for 22 hours a week, why could I not be asked to teach for 23 hours a week and just keep the same salary? Why do these hours have to be after 4.00? Why can they not be actual teaching hours as opposed to sitting around listening to speakers?
I commend the Minister for standing up against the pathetic action by ASTI around 1 extra hour per week for 35 weeks a year …. ASTI is a disgrace …. get back to work .. we cannot afford to address wage demands in isolation. .. join the queue
Could be in for a very long haul
Parents are the sole educators of their children according to the condtitution.This midterm has given me time to really see what my 15 year old is actually learning at school and it seems they are being groomed to join the bankstets corrupt cops and corporate communist bloc that is the EU. So i sat the kid down and explained his rights to him as there is no student union for 15 year olds. You can leave the abitoir that is the Irish education system when you are 16!
He is now planning a careet in horticulture and forestry and leaving for the green acres lifestyle. Happy kid now he has a future.
I thought a lot of the government were teachers????
*Bruton, not Brutan
Use precise geolocation data. Actively scan device characteristics for identification. Store and/or access information on a device. Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development.
These cookies are necessary for the website to function and cannot be switched off in our systems. They are usually only set in response to actions made by you which amount to a request for services, such as setting your privacy preferences, logging in or filling in forms. You can set your browser to block or alert you about these cookies, but some parts of the site will not then work.
These cookies may be set through our site by our advertising partners. They may be used by those companies to build a profile of your interests and show you relevant adverts on other sites. They do not store directly personal information, but are based on uniquely identifying your browser and internet device. If you do not allow these cookies, you will experience less targeted advertising.
These cookies enable the website to provide enhanced functionality and personalisation. They may be set by us or by third party providers whose services we have added to our pages. If you do not allow these cookies then these services may not function properly.
These cookies allow us to count visits and traffic sources so we can measure and improve the performance of our site. They help us to know which pages are the most and least popular and see how visitors move around the site. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. If you do not allow these cookies we will not be able to monitor our performance.
Cookies, device or similar online identifiers (e.g. login-based identifiers, randomly assigned identifiers, network based identifiers) together with other information (e.g. browser type and information, language, screen size, supported technologies etc.) can be stored or read on your device to recognise it each time it connects to an app or to a website, for one or several of the purposes presented here.
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times an ad is presented to you).
Information about your activity on this service (such as forms you submit, content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (for example, information from your previous activity on this service and other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (that might include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present advertising that appears more relevant based on your possible interests by this and other entities.
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects.
Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests, such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects. This can for example be used to adapt the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g. reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance, whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
have your say