@Charles – It was a coup. The (CIA) backed military kidnapped him when the traditional elite of Venezuela, who have been responsible for keeping the vast majority of the population in poverty for decades, got fed up with him taking power back from them. At one point there were very real fears that he was going to be murdered while under detention until the sheer scale of popular support that came out from the ghettos for him meant there could be no alternative but to return him to his democratically elected position as president. Watch a great documentary shot by an RTE film crew completely by accident called “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised”.

It has been over 300 years since Iran invaded another countries territory. It has been 8 since the US has. The West has funded far more militant groups than Iran has. The biggest disruptor to world peace and stability has ALWAYS been empire, be it the Romans, the French, the English, or now, the Americans.

Val, The documentary-makers were not working for RTE, the film was shown on RTE but it shows many independent productions. The documentary was debunked in “X-ray of a Lie”( Wolfgang Schalk and Thaelmann Urgelles). The Irish film-makers were sympathetic to Chavez and they have been accused of manipulation of the facts and of video-clips, although they have also received high praise from some quarters.
Can you point to evidence that the CIA was behind the “coup”? Remember it fell apart because it was poorly organised, largely spontaneous.
As for Iran basically you have ignored all of my points. You don’t challenge what I said about massacres in Argentina. Is that not effectively, “going to war” or is the mass murder of Jews and those unfortunate enough to be in their vicinity to be airbrushed from history? Is shipping arms to Hamas for use against civilians not also an “act of war.”Some might say it is a just war but it’s still war. Funny how you can accuse the USA of fomenting the events in Venezuala (I accept they have form in Latin America), but seem to give a pass to Ahmadinejad and co for their wars by proxy.

PS Val, I note that your list of imperial aggressors are all white Europeans and of course America! What about the Persians, Mongols, Japanese, Muslims (including the Prophet), and numerous others? Try thinking outside the box once in a while.

Firstly, apologies, the film was funded by the film board, BSE, not RTE. Mixup in the use of initials!

However, I would have to disagree with many of the points raised in the film you’re talking about. The series of events in TRWNBT is still wildly held to be (at least) the truest representation of what actually happened during the coup, the X-Ray of a Lie is not more than an accusation, one that is neither widely accepted nor been proven to any great degree. Many of the events shown in the TRWNBT have actually shown to be true. It was used, for instance, to combat the claims by the opposition that Chavez supports opened fire on opp. protestors. The film in fact shows opposition members firing into an empty street, and actually shows the partly the exact same footage shown on Venezuelan TV at the time, bar where they looked over the bridge only to show noone on the street below, something TV stations didnt do.

Without being able to get too into it, a simple google of “cia venezuelan coup” will return a number of results that show, at the very least, the CIA knew about the coup months in advance – here is one link from a reputable news source that shows they had direct links to it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/21/usa.venezuela. Also you say it was “poorly organised, largely spontaneous”. Again, it was being planned for at least 6 months beforehand so I fail to see how this is true.

With regards Argentina, I dont deny the Iranian government had something to do with it. Given the different factions at work within the govt. though a detailed analysis of who knew what is needed. For example, in the United States, it is a widely held belief that the president at times is not aware of CIA black operations, such as organising coups, support for militant groups etc. It would be unfair to suggest too that the Iranian govt. is fully aware as well. The Revolutionary Guard are widely known to be a law unto themselves at times, as was recently seen with the recent attempt to assassinate a Saudi official. The supply of arms to Hamas etc raises a number of questions – who is funding them? Where are the arms coming from? Who is aware of it? Western media says Iran is supplying Hamas. That is too vague a statement. In the 70′s it would have been possible to say to a certain degree of truth “America is arming the IRA”. However a more correct statement would be “Irish mobsters on the east coast of America are arming the IRA”.

Finally, I dont see the point in bringing empires that have been redundant for centuries into the argument (bar the Japanese, and also, I shouldnt have brought the Romans into it). Fact of the matter is most of the problems in the world are a direct hangover from the “white European” and American empires. This is a fact. The Mongols, Persians and Muslims have no been empires in nearly a millenium so if “thinking outside the box once in a while” as you put it means bringing up points that have absolutely no place in an argument about contemperory Venezuela, America and Iran, than I will be fairly happy to stay inside the box thanks a million. (Also, “white European” and American empires are nothing more than coincidence of technological superiority happening to occur in Europe and later America at a time when global reach became relatively easy to achieve. In fact, if China hadn’t returned to an insular state in the 16th century, we’d probably be looking at a VERY different world right now. Maybe thats an example of me “thinking outside the box” though.)

Charles your history is one of the deluded. No offense, but hogwash like yours has always been rampant. There are more than one accounts out there, be they in print or documentary form about the CIA backed coup to take Chavez down. He never fled – he was taken.
Free press reigns in Venezuela. Chavez is victim of it daily – like Democrats and ordinary decent Americans are from Fox News. America on this occasion is guilty of trying to overthrow a democratic leader – going against their own ethic when it comes to the neo-con notion of nation building. It is about Empire here and it’s been marching since the end of WW2 – both at home and abroad. It’s accelerating now with their draconian Patriot and NDAA Acts.
But America will prevail in the end – there is enough decency and soul still there, they just need control back from Washington, Wall St. and the Federal Reserve. Once they take their eyes off the telly they will be better informed. Hopefully.

@ Don – Yes!! That is one thing that frustrates me no end! People talk about the lack of freedom of speech in Venezuela and how Chavez is a tyrant. Ask them where that information comes from and they saw – it gets reported by the venezuelan media daily. Now – and this is basic logical thought – if a leader was going to get rid of freedom of speech in a country, would opposing media reports not be the VERY first place you would start? It just makes no sense. Its frustrating that people are so blinded to facts that they cant put that simple sequence together.

If people don’t think there is a bias against Chavez in the western media…. http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5003

Val, I’m not long finished work so sorry for not replying to you sooner. I would say the debate has moved on. I accept that the film I referred to probably was biased to some degree but so was the Irish one and it seems you accept that ( you will recall that I acknowledged that the Irish film received widespread praise).I doubt we’re going to agree on much to do with Venezuela, so I suggest we call it quits. By the way, it was not I who brought empires into the debate, other than a mild reference to Persia which I think was entirely appropriate in the context Can I suggest that if one is looking to more recent times, the most appalling and dangerous expansionist regimes have been Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. I don’t suggest the US is perfect ( I acknowledged it has “form” in Latin America), but it should get immense credit for saving Europe from itself on two occasions and for putting an end to the two aforementioned regimes.Of course the Soviet Union played an enormous role in defeating the Nazis but the bottom line is that but for America we would presently be living under the malign influence of either the Nazis or the Soviets. As for Iran, if you don’t mind my saying so you seem to be going out on a limb to defend them. Perhaps “defend” is too strong a word but you’ll know what I mean. I went to both of your links but the Guardian one didn’t work. I would have read it. Anyway I have enjoyed the debate and I thank you for making me think. That’s what it all should be about, isn’t it. Don, I wouldn’t waste my time replying to your ignorant bile.(PS I swear this is not a CIA “divide and conquer” strategy).

There is no greater ignorance than the untruthful telling of history. I’ll take my bile any day of the week before that.

Don’t take it too quickly, it’s pretty foul.By the way,just because I don’t share yor view doesn’t make me “deluded.” You should put the megaphone away and engage with the issues. You might enjoy it.

@ Charles: i probably should have said earlier, and was actually going to bring it up, I dont actually believe the US to be wrong all of the time. Out of all the empires that have existed, I think there is definitely a case they have probably been the best behaved of all. Best behaved probably isnt the best way to put that but you probably get where I’m coming from… I done one study this year that showed the number of “liberal democracies” tripled around the globe between 1970 and 2005. I would argue this has a great deal to do with the US’ growing power in the world at the time and the fact that the SU’s downward spiral was beginning.

At the same time though, there have been situations where they have undoubtedly been the aggressor and have definitely been in the wrong. Korea, Viet Nam, various South American countries over the last century or so, Afghanistan and obviously Iraq. With Venezueala, I can’t see anything other than it being about Chavez’s want (need?) to put the oil industry back in Venezuelan hands (on a side note, I saw this today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1qokHQrFys). Seems like we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one!

BTW, by figures for liberal democracies, they went from about 40 in 1970 to 123 in 2005.

Fair enough Val. We won’t agree on everything. If America had stayed out of Korea which of the two types of government/society would be in place throughout the peninsula today? If I mention other parts of Southeast Asia we’ll definitely fall out so I’ll bite my tongue. Its been interesting and challenging..Regards, CM