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Updated 1.44pm
KIEV AND PRO-RUSSIAN rebels have signed off on a roadmap to implement a Ukraine peace deal thrashed out during marathon talks in Minsk, President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian leader Petro Poroshenko said today.
“The contact group signed a document that we prepared with a great deal of tension,” Poroshenko said of the deal, which Putin said was “a set of measures to implement the Minsk agreements”, referring to a widely disregarded September peace deal.
Earlier Poroshenko, Russia’s Vladimir Putin, France’s Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel had been locked in talks at the presidential palace in Minsk since late last night, trying to work out a plan to end a conflict that has pitted pro-Russian rebels against Kiev government forces in east Ukraine, killing at least 5,300 people and plunging East-West relations to a post Cold War low.
Arch-foes Poroshenko and Putin were meeting for the first time since October at the climax of a frantic European diplomatic drive aimed at stopping the worst East-West crisis since the end of the Cold War from escalating.
Difficult birth
Western European leaders have voiced cautious optimism about the plan, which has been hailed as a great victory by pro-Russian rebels but met with scepticism by war-weary civilians.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who was a driving force behind the negotiations, along with French President Francois Hollande, said she had “no illusions” and that “big hurdles” remained in ending the 10-month conflict.
“We now have a glimmer of hope,” she said in the Belarussian capital,adding that “concrete steps must of course be taken and there will still be big hurdles ahead”.
“I have no illusions, we have no illusions,” she said, “much work” remained.
Hollande said the deal included a “comprehensive political solution” and provided “serious hope, even if all is not done”.
Merkel’s Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said it represented neither “a comprehensive solution” nor a “breakthrough”.
He said he welcomed the truce plan but “without any exuberance” since “it was a difficult birth”.
Putin, accused of backing the rebels, joked with journalists about whether they had slept or not after the marathon overnight talks.
“It wasn’t the best night of my life but the morning, in my opinion, is a good one because despite all the complexities of the negotiating process we still manged to agree on the main points,” he said.
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Why is Putin setting conditions if there are no Russian soldiers in East Ukraine like Putin says?
Or is he just there out of the goodness of his heart to ensure the safe return of thousands of “concerned holidaymakers” armed with the latest Russian weaponry and yet more of his troops who keep turning off their GPS gear, then wandering over the border and getting lost by mistake?
Perhaps you should ask the Ukrainian government that refuses to negotiate with “terrorists”. The talks invoke Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine. Any agreement will be submitted to all parties, including the volunteer batallions run by Oligarchs who don’t come under Kiev command. Perhaps if you tried to keep up with the facts on the ground you wouldn’t get left behind.
The facts:
- Putin rejects Ukraine’s right to decide its own “self-interest”, but insists on that for himself.
- Putin is the ONLY leader to use military force to invade & make a land-grab from a European neighbour since 1968.
Maybe you can tell us the facts in Russia there John. Were you not moving there a while back??
Must be cold??
Putin is there because the Ukrainian president will not talk to the rebel leaders. Putin will have to make the case now to the rebels separately.
Sure Isaac, kind of like Gerry Adams used to consult with the IRA Army Council …
- by looking in the mirror.
The rebels are not pro Russian per se they are pro Ukraine but oppose the present fascist rulers in Kiev
Bill, do you follow the Kremlin line that the liberal, democratically elected president and parliament of independent Ukraine should move the eastern and southern borders of their country away from Putin’s troops?
Robin, Hitler was elected in Germany in 1933 in chillingly similar circumstances to Poreshenko by banning communists and basically any other serious opponents what a pity there were no internal rebels to oppose him how different world history would have been if there had been.
“Hitler was elected in Germany in 1933…”
I’m going to invoke Godwin’s law here Bill, you just lost the argument.
Bill one could say the same of Putin. Well almost, democracy had little to do with Putin’s last election win, like when you see video of election officials stuffing ballot boxes with votes for Putin. Democracy Russian style where your vote magically changes to support Putin or who or what Putin wants and the dead rise and vote.
@ Jason Culligan you might need to have a read of you history, I will repeat Adolf Hitler was elected German leader in 1933
Bill. I repeat so was Putin (well kind of).
“@ Jason Culligan you might need to have a read of you history, I will repeat Adolf Hitler was elected German leader in 1933″
I will repeat myself as well as you clearly haven’t understood my point. Look up Godwin’s law.
Mick so was Poreshenko (well kind of)
Bill. You Will find Porochenko was elected in a free, fair and open manner. Where no electoral irregularities were reported by international observers. Can you say the same about Putin’s election?
Well Bill. Care to answer the question? Or would any of you Putinistas like to chime in?
Sorry Mick busy at work you should try it sometime
LOL. Time off work Bill. Does the Kremlin not give you any?
And you mentioned the Crimean referendum. The one that 120% of the population voted in!!!
Jason
Godwin is not a law, its an excuse for losers. If you are going to refer to laws, refer to real ones, not buss words.
Gerard. I have see the Putinistas on here use Godwins Law more times when trying to deflect from Russia’s annexation of Crimea when it was compared to German annexation of the Sudatenland.
Jason Culligan
And you just lost your creditability
Jason
Yats and Porky were elected in Ukraine in 2014, same thing.
Godwins law ?? there is no such law.
And Gerard what of all those that have accused others of using Godwin’s Law when it was pointed out to them that Russia’s annexation of Crimea is strikingly similar to Nazi Germany’s annexation of the Sudetenland in 38 have they lost their credibility too?
Ceasefire has been agreed.
Historians will look back and say “peace broke out”
‘The Grand Chessboard – American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives’, Written by Zbigniew Brzezinski – Former US national security advisor.. A recommended read if you want get to grips with the US’ (and by proxy, ‘The West’) aggressive policy towards Russia and the east Ukrainians.. cynical stuff, but if your empire is on the decline then needs must..
Selected quotes:
“Ever since the continents started interacting politically, some five hundred years ago, Eurasia has been the center of world power.”- (p. xiii)
“It is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges capable of dominating Eurasia and thus of also challenging America. The formulation of a comprehensive and integrated Eurasian geostrategy is therefore the purpose of this book.” (p. xiv)
“How America ‘manages’ Eurasia is critical. A power that dominates Eurasia would control two of the world’s three most advanced and economically productive regions. A mere glance at the map also suggests that control over Eurasia would almost automatically entail Africa’s subordination, rendering the Western Hemisphere and Oceania geopolitically peripheral to the world’s central continent. About 75 per cent of the world’s people live in Eurasia, and most of the world’s physical wealth is there as well, both in its enterprises and underneath its soil. Eurasia accounts for about three-fourths of the world’s known energy resources.” (p.31)
“In the long run, global politics are bound to become increasingly uncongenial to the concentration of hegemonic power in the hands of a single state. Hence, America is not only the first, as well as the only, truly global superpower, but it is also likely to be the very last.” (p.209)
“Moreover, as America becomes an increasingly multi-cultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues, except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat.” (p. 211)
More anti-American fodder, The demise of America has been predicted decade after decade but its not getting any closer. It still has the strongest military by far, it still has the richest economy and the majority of the richest companies in the world. It’s national debt is manageable and for the most part owed to American’s themselves, its currency is still the strongest, the PetroDollar is secure and so many nations including Russia’s neighbors seek to align themselves in Western military organizations.
Very positive development in glad theirs been diplomatic negotiations between European countries with no outside interference.
The chances of this one holding are slim without an international force wedged between the rebels and the government forces. The last deal broke down because both sides took pot shots at one another and it continually escalated until open fighting broke out.
Compare it to Israel and Syria where international troops, while not being 100% effective at stopping pot shots, have certainly done a good job at preventing conflict there from escalating.
@ B-Egan : You said it. “ Without outside interference”. The biggest problem at the moment is that, as the extremely destructive wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya near an end ,and the US total destruction of Syria has been disrupted for the time been, the military industrial complex desperately needs a new confrontation, somewhere, anywhere. Europe and Russia do not.
Global Hegemony in the Guise of “Collective Defense” against Russia. Moscow’s Response?
Since World War II, the United States has invaded, bombed, and/or occupied the Korean Peninsula, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Somalia, Lebanon, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria. Some of these nations have been attacked by the US more than once. In many more countries the US has facilitated the violent overthrow of various governments, particularly in South America and the Middle East, first through the use of its Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), then through more veiled organizations like the National Endowment for Democracy (NED). It has troops stationed in over a hundred nations around the world, occupying hundreds of military installations.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-hegemony-in-the-guise-of-collective-defense-against-russia-moscows-response/5430554
“Since World War II, the United States has invaded, bombed, and/or occupied the Korean Peninsula, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Somalia, Lebanon, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria.”
Russia forcibly occupied Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, the Ukraine and Uzbekistan while maintaining East Germany, Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Romania as puppet states.
Of these, a vast number were invaded during their tenure as puppets or “member states” while many have suffered invasions by Russia in the post-Soviet world. This is before we even touch on their involvement in Afghanistan, Korea, China and Vietnam to name but a few.
I’m tired of all this “look at how many countries the US has invaded” whataboutery when discussing issues that other countries, namely Russia, have caused.
In Iraq , Afghanistan and Libya, killing over a million people and displacing many millions more. In Vietnam many millions killed and up to the present day as in Laos, and Cambodia thousands of children been born with physical and mental defects as a result of agent orange. Same problems in Iraq and Libya through the illegal use of depleted uranium. This all in the name of democracy which does not exist in the US . any more and which is today an Oligarchy heading fast track towards fascism , unfortunately. It is high time that the US began to look after their own badly neglected citizens and their own so called Democracy once again.
http://www.policymic.com/articles/87719/princeton-concludes-what-kind-of-government-america-really-has-and-it-s-not-a-democracy
“In Iraq , Afghanistan and Libya, killing over a million people and displacing many millions more. ”
Proof? The only accepted figures for Iraq put the total death toll, including civilians, soldiers and insurgents, at no more than 150,000. Over a war that spanned 10 years that’s a remarkably low number.
“Same problems in Iraq and Libya through the illegal use of depleted uranium.”
Please do show where Depleted Uranium is listed as a banned weapon. The same BS claims were made about cluster munitions yesterday here. People seem to think any weapon used by the US is illegal (oh, you’ll be happy to know that Russia heavily uses DU munitions as well).
Also tests were conducted using titanium replacements for DU munitions and it was found that they are much worse for the environment and health of someone surviving an impact.
Jason you know Pat and the other Putinistas are going to try and spin numbers from fresh air to back up any claim they make. They are only following the Moscow hand book.
one is as bad as the other in my view
I fully agree with you Jay, both Russia and the US have a dirty history of getting involved where they really shouldn’t have. I just see comments here entirely focusing on the US (even though Russia is the one with boots on the ground and are actively arming a belligerent) and feel compelled to at least try to add some balance to the comments section.
That, apparently, makes me a “shill” according to some or that I get all my news from “Fox” according to others, even though I’ve never even seen that channel once in my life.
Jason. Its the same rhetoric over and over again. If you are anti Putin you watch Fox News, are a Shill etc, the Government in Kiev are all Nazis and there are no Russian soldiers, Arms or Equipment in Eastern Ukraine.
I think they are hoping that if they say it enough times people may start to believe it.
Jason
Same as the last cease fire, 8,000 Uki army surrounded, Kiev will re launch the war minute they are safe.
@James et al .”Illigitimi Non Carborundum”- don’t let the batards grind you down-Yukon Motto.
Have a Great Day!
The British polling firm Opinion Research Business (ORB) asked 1,720 Iraqi adults last summer if they had lost family members by violence since 2003; 16% had lost one, and 5% two. Using the 2005 census total of 4,050,597 households in Iraq, this suggests 1,220,580 deaths since the invasion. Accounting for a standard margin of error, ORB says, “We believe the range is a minimum of 733,158 to a maximum of 1,446,063.”
Not to mention the thousands, perhaps millions that the Russians have spirited away to Siberia on trumped up charges many of whom have never been heard of again.
Pat, those results have been criticised by researchers because of the fact that they merely address deaths caused by violence and were not focused solely on casualties caused by the war and insurgency. Not to mention 730,000 to 1.4 million is a massive margin of error and smacks of a poorly-organised research project.
The classified Iraqi War Logs, the Iraq Body Count Project, the Iraqi Health Ministry investigation and the Associated Press investigations all put the number in a 100-170,000 range and the Iraq War Logs include Coalition casualties in that figure.
@ Chris Kirk : I presume you mean the Soviets. Yes that was terrible, but now we are just referring to the period following WW2 where we had hoped mankind had learned something from this terrible historical disaster. Here I am not speaking about the Soviets, the Germans or about Genghis Kahn for that matter.
Jason
To be fair, you use a lot of whataboutery yourself, is your whataboutery any better than anyone elses.
Strange that Russia is there.
Should just be the Ukrainian government, the rebels & an intermediary.
Russia was in the area on holiday.
Just popped in to say hello and innocently sat down at the table.
@business cat. Very strange that the separatists have not been given a seat at the table. This concerns mainly the people from E Ukraine, yet their voice cannot be heard.
The rebels, keeping with their track record, will simply let their Russian-supplied rockets talk for them.
@Jason. According to Russian language media (slon.ru), the leaders of donetsk and lugansk people’s republics are somewhat put out that they have had no say. They have referred to the deal as having been drawn up by the ‘Normandy 4′ (нормандская четвёрка).
In fairness Anne, the vast majority (read: all but one) of the leaders of the pro-Russian rebels are actually Russian citizens with past ties to either the Russian military or secret services. Russia deciding a course of action for what basically is a Russian-led uprising shouldn’t surprise anyone.
So what they are really saying Anne “We don’t accept the Ceasefire terms”.
none of you are currently in the Ukraine so can we stop acting like we know all the details?
@Mick. As far as I know, they have accepted it. My comment was in response to Jason’s suggestion that they didn’t need representation as Putin was there for them. Just pointing out that the separatist leaders didn’t see it that way. When an agreement is drawn up without the main players present, it could be dubious. But let’s hope it stays in place. Too many lives have been lost and the potential for an even greater tragedy was real.
Anne to quote you “they are somewhat put out that they had no say” and “referred to the deal as being drawn up by the Normandy Four”.
Now that begs the question. Does it give Moscow a free pass if fighting flares up? Will Moscow say “look we tried. But because we (Russia) have no Troops on the ground there to monitor the ceasefire there is little we can do. But if can put offical “Peacekeeping Troops” there we can monitor what is happening”.
And just like they did in Georgia and in Moldova they will then claim that their “Peacekeeping Troops” were fired on by the Ukrainian side and as such must defend themselves and the civilian population of Donetsk and Lughansk. Therefore effectively Offically seizing that territory just like they did in Crimea.
Business CIts because the Kiev mob refuses to talk to the rebels. The only reason Kiev is at the table is that 8,000 of its soldiers are surrounded and will be wiped out if they can’t stop the fighting long enough to save them, the war will resume shortly.
Mick Jordan
Russia can recognise the two states in Novorussia any time it choses, someone is already stopping the worst excesses of the kiev mob, so we have a head start on the peace keeping already.
Just a couple of things Gerard.
You said. “so we have a head start”. Who is “We”. Are you Russian now? Have you something to tell us ?
And how if as Putin claims there are NO Russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine can “We” have a head start on peace keeping?”
And finally what good is Russia recognizing Donetsk and Lughansk when no one else will? As far as the rest of the world is concerned Crimea and Donetsk and Lughansk are sovereign Ukrainian territory.
Mick Jordan
” We ” The sensible people that don’t see war as a football match or computer game.
We have a head start because Putin has lessened Kiev’s ability to slaughter civilians in the east.
Tut tut Gerard you have to try better than that.
After 17 hours of talks it seems they have agreed something’. 15 Feb ceasefire should come into effect at midnight.
Let’s hope it’ll hold
so many people willing to come out and say “this is what is happening this is what is not happening” we know next to nothing on this subject people, our information comes from flimsy biased news reports and articles full of spin and righteousness, none of us are on the ground, so none of us know the full story. none of us are willing to admit that though…
and I refer to both sides of the media, pro-US/EU and pro-Russian
Ginger. Oleg a regular contributor on this subject is Ukrainian and knows exactly what is happening in Eastern Ukraine. Yet the pro Russians on here consistently try and shout him down. All one as to do is look at the sheer amount of newly formed Twitter accounts making pro Putin/Russian statements.
Yeah Mick, lets ban all those pro Russian posters as they are all Kremlin bots who must be silenced. Hey Mick, would that make you and Jason happy?
mick: is he living in Ireland or Ukraine?
He is currently in Ireland but is in regular contact with his family in Ukraine. As would any Irish person living abroad would be if a similar circumstance were happening here.
What’s wrong Kool. Don’t like being exposed?
hey mick I put this in the wrong place earlier
and saying he knows exactly what is happening is a gross-oversimplification , he is not an all seeing god, one person cannot accurately convey the opinions of thousands
I know it may seem crude but I include his family in that, one family is not every family they could be from kiev for all we know, im not saying he is wrong or right, im just trying to make a point that we are for the most part blind on this issue and the smoke being thrown up from both sides doesn’t help
Mick, you are so deluded that you now believe yourself to be a top notch internet bot sniffer out.
Well done you
LOL. The Truth shall Set You Free, Kool
“Yeah Mick, lets ban all those pro Russian posters as they are all Kremlin bots who must be silenced. Hey Mick, would that make you and Jason happy?”
I would appreciate if you did not insinuate that I’m against free speech in the future as you clearly know nothing about me.
Mick Oleg is 1 ukrainian ( clearly a western ukrainian headbanger) . I have told you time and time again the information I get ftom my relatives in East Ukraine and Crimea via Skype and you dismiss it.
I am in regular contact with my family in Ukraine and Crimea and I can say with certainty that the Kiev government is indiscriminately shelling its own population and blaming the Rebels.
Fyi Jason and Mick are clearly the same person.
You make my point Isaac. “Oleg is 1 ukrainian ( clearly a western ukrainian headbanger” .
Mick J
Yeah Mick, censorship, no east Ukrainian allowed, Olek should be deported for inciting hatred and war.
Again with this shite Isaac. Now that you made the claim Isaac prove it. Show the readers on hear you haven’t made an Ass of yourself.
Again you make my point.
“Fyi Jason and Mick are clearly the same person.”
Of course, two people claiming to have two completely lives in two completely different countries with easily accessible and verifiable details about personal lives are the same person. You caught out one of the most elaborate hoaxes going on the internet…
Mick’s got a good point, you’ve yet to prove it despite claiming this BS multiple times. We’ve even got a completely different style of typing.
Well Isaac we are still waiting for you to back up your claim with proof.
Any forth coming this century would be appreciated.
Mick, you make the case about “newly formed Twitter accounts”? I wonder how true that is? What does it say about the journal allowing so many dubious individuals post on here? Does it not make the journal complicit in allowing one sided Propoganda flourish?
I myself cannot comment under my Facebook profile name which is real. I suspect glen, frank or Horgay have gotten me banned. I have emailed the journal but have not gotten a response. Frank has accused me of “slanderous lies” when he himself makes the most ridiculous comments.
But we know who you are. You have never tried to hide your identity. And their in lays the difference. As for your other account being banned my money would be on Horgay. He had a special hatred for you.
I give it about 2 days.
So do I. US and NATO cant deal with another war coming to an end. Peace don’t sell weapons.
Kieran. According to Anne’s reading of the terrorists statements they feel that as they were not consulted they are not going to implement the ceasefire terms. So if it breaks down you should look East.
Mick
I remember last summer you refused to believe the Uki army was surrounded and getting an ass kicking until the west media had to print the truth. There are about 8,000 Ukrainians surrounded, as soon as kiev secures their escape it will do what it always does, resume the war.
In the mean time Putin will blow the shit out of them until the 15th
Bet the mad USUK axis of evill are enraged that there is a prospect of peace, insane Mccain and his other evil henchmen will be looking for a way to scupper the peace like they usually do
Why would they be “enraged” when Russia single-handedly did more to drive the Ukraine into the arms of the West than the UK or US could ever hope to achieve themselves?
Will have to wait and see if the “Ukraine president / Gov” follows the agreement, they do not have a good record of moral action, legitimacy or trustworthiness.
Should any real election happen across the entire Ukraine, the likelihood of them remaining in power after setting the military on their own citizens must be close to zero.
That will never happen, the result of their power grab, sham elections and brutal tactics have split Ukraine irreversibly. The entire sequence of events from the first violent demonstrations in Kiev have been a disgrace, and contrary to all values expressed by the EU and the US. Flying in the face of democracy, human rights, and common sense.
Tracking, that comment was straight out of the Kremlin handbook. The same tired old soundbites, the same lack of proof to actually back any of it up. Unlike the referendums in Crimea and the Eastern Oblasts, both the presidential and parliamentary elections were observed and given the seal of approval.
Jason, it is noticeably the case that anyone who doesn’t agree with your Fox news view of the world must be a commenting from a Kremlin handbook. Can you not see how pathetic you are when you come out with the same tired old rubbish?
I hope your heroes in junta give peace a chance or is that possible when they are a law unto themselves
Just indépendant thought Jason, and looking at the facts.
Your comments are out of the Fox News handbook.
It is a geopolitical situation, and I do not trust either side entirely, Russia or the US / EU. Each is trying to install their own puppets in power. The poor Ukrainians are the victims.
The Western “terrorists” seized gov building, had violent demonstrations, shot at the president.
The Eastern “terrorist” seized building in response, and got attacked by the army, burnt alive, and murdered. The result, split Ukraine and civil war, obvious to anyone objectively looking at the situation.
I can understand anyone in the east being enraged by the power grab in Kiev, also russia too.
Yes the elections were given the seal of approval by the US / EU, with their own agenda. Not by Russia, not by the east – Ukraine citizens who had their elected representavie illegally replaced. And did not vote in your “parliamentary elections”.
Due to this you cannot claim the Kiev regime represent the entire Ukraine, or anyone else with credibility.
I hope the result is effective independence of the east within Ukraine, with veto powers of foreign policy, as both points of view within Ukraine exist, and deserve equal share.
Kool. You are the one that described Putin as “The Great Leader” yesterday. Notice you didn’t call him “A” great leader but “The” great leader. And you are the one with a Twitter account set up to specifically to spew Kremlin Propaganda on the Journal.
Sometimes the consequences of doing nothing result in a greater lost of life . The world did nothing in Rwanda and a million people died . After the genocide the world wanted to know why it was aloud to happen . Your damn if you do and your damn if you don’t .
Mick, I didn’t realise it’s a crime to describe someone as a great leader, and so what if that’s how I think about the Russian President. In comparison to what we have in the so called West as leaders then you can’t really disagree.
I guess you like Jason think anyone who doesn’t follow the Fox news narrative must be a kremlin propagandist with fake twitter etc etc
Kool you described him as “The Great Leader” not a great leader. Subtle difference. Smacks of North Korean style glorification.
“Yes the elections were given the seal of approval by the US / EU, with their own agenda. Not by Russia, not by the east – Ukraine citizens who had their elected representavie illegally replaced. And did not vote in your “parliamentary elections”.”
“the election is valid in spite of the rather harsh and dirty election campaign” – Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin.
You’re really not good at this whole fact checking thing are you?
Jason
Stop playing silly word games, you know well that a coup regime can’t hold a legal election, the fools that observed and gave it their seal of approval criminalised themselves.
“Stop playing silly word games, you know well that a coup regime can’t hold a legal election, the fools that observed and gave it their seal of approval criminalised themselves.”
Are you calling the Russian Minister for Foreign Affairs Sergey Lavrov and his colleague Grigory Karasin criminals? Both of them have publicly recognised the presidential and parliamentary elections held in the Ukraine after Maidan as legal and fair.
Did the Kremlin not update you on that?
HGT, you could be right that all-Ukraine elections may not take place – possibly rightly so if alternative full independently verified democratic elections are allowed to take place in East Ukraine and Crimea to indisputably establish the views of the people there – but you’re living on a different planet if you think the current Kiev government wouldn’t get an overall majority in Ukraine.
Ouch Gerard you got owned on that one. You and the boys ate not on your A Game this evening. The Ministery of Propaganda (sorry slip of the finger) meant Information won’t be best pleased with you all.
Jason
Duh ! Obviously not Jason, Russia can at any time recognise the east as sovereign, that the worst thing about a coup regime, they need at least a generation to establish themselves. Your playing word games again, Russia does not recognise Crimea as part of Ukraine, the Russians played a better game, the key is that they that Kiev is a coup junta, in that situation anything can be said and not done.
They prefer a whole Ukraine, and that is all they will settle for.
So Gerard they want the whole of Ukraine as a vassal state just like Belarus.
“Duh ! Obviously not Jason`
You said explicitly that anyone who recognised the parliamentary and presidential elections as legitimate was a criminal. Now anyone except a Russian who recognises it is a criminal?
I very rarely say this on the Journal but I’ll make an exception for you. You are really full of s**t.
Poor little Hunter Biden will be demanding his war mongering Daddy Joe makes sure this peace doesn’t last otherwise Hunter will be losing valuable resources his gas company were depending on to enrich him and his cronies.
Watch out for false flag ops and CIA meddling. Suppose Jon Brennan will be making a trip to Kiev sometime soon.
Yeah looks like he won’t be getting his dirty little fracking deal.
Putin in invisible blow job shocker
Neville Chamberlain tried appeasement policies with Germany and that lead to WW2 now Germany think that this policy will have a different outcome with Russia today… And France was there to formally surrender to anyone and everyone. But seriously, didn’t a very smart man once say that “the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing again and again and expect a different outcome” history is laughing as Angela and she’s not listening as usual. Terrifying stuff… History has shown us how this will all end.
Jay Warner
WW3 then, because appeasement never works with NATO.
Who has tried to appease NATO Gerard? Who has tried and failed?
Mick Jordan
Half the world.
Give us some names.
Where’s Frank with his numerology chrystal balls? Did’nt he post on another comments page that something big globally was due on Feb 15th? We wait with bated breath!!!
and saying he knows exactly what is happening is a gross-oversimplification , he is not an all seeing god, one person cannot accurately convey the opinions of thousands
@mick
Ginger. Anne was quoting from Russian language press all of which is Kremlin controlled. So if the Kremlin doesn’t approve it, it doesn’t get printed.
I don’t even know who anne is man im just saying its crazy for us to act as though we understand the situation 100% and that we can judge accurately the best way forward
There are some things we can figure out though from the information that’s trickling through. Research from the Second World War showed that captured equipment (tanks, artillery,vehicles) which was not sent back to be analysed and were instead used on the front had an expected lifespan of a week. This was because the lack of fuel, ammunition and spares would cripple the ability of a nation to use them for any extended period of time.
The rebel forces, on the other hand, seem to have no issue with this. We see videos of them using tanks, heavy artillery and other military vehicles yet these issues seem to be non-existent. As they would need a complex logistical chain behind them supplying all of this gear to keep a protracted civil war going, we can safely assume that Russia is supplying the rebels with the necessary fuel, spare parts and ammunition.
Russia completely denies that this is the case, though, despite the obvious issues with this statement.
Ginger. What do we know for certain. Well lets look.
Russia is currently occupying sovereign Ukrainian territory ie: Crimea.
The terrorists in Eastern Ukraine are getting Arms and Ammo from somewhere. (I don’t believe in fairy god mothers or magic arms shops). The terrorists leaders are mostly Russian citizens with a high level of military and intelligence training.
The civilian population in the terrorist occupied areas have been refused their democratic right to vote in both the Presidential and Parliamentary elections. And the results of the so called referendum that the terrorists held were decided before a single vote was cast. (From the intercepted phone call several days before the ballot. And the ballot results matching perfectly the percentage number mentioned in the call).
The trouble in the East only began “After” Russia had fully occupied Crimea.
We also know the both the Ukrainian President and Parliament were democratically elected in a fair, free and open election. And are politically Centrist but yet continued to be refered to by the Kremlin controlled media as “Nazis”.
Crimea was an autonomous state within Ukraine populated mainly by Russians with dual citizenship. They asked Russia for protection when the maidan right wing vigilantes began sending what they called ‘ peace trains’ to Crimea which were essentially trains full of far right thugs. They wanted to spread the revolution to Crimea where no one wanted them. They asked Russia for help and after that took the next logical step of a referendum to rejoin Russia and escape the ant Russian rioters that were burning police and causing widespread chaos.
Crimea is the most peaceful and safest place in the region now. You think the Crimeans want to return to Kiev control after what they did to the East ukranian Russian civilians?
“Crimea is the most peaceful and safest place in the region now” Tell that to the Tartars and Ethnic Ukranians
Mick, I wouldn’t get too worried about them spewing inaccuracies. Tracking and Gerard can’t get over the fact that Russia gave the elections in the Ukraine their seal of approval and some are still denying that the Ukraine was ever invaded in the first place.
Facts come second to worshiping the great Tsar Putin
You mean THE GREAT LEADER Jason. Or would it be Vladimir the Great. He probably hasn’t made up his mind yet.
@Isaac They, (Crimeans), also yearned for the Ukrainian pension and welfare rates to be replaced by the Russian pension -welfare rates that are 2 to 3 times that of the Ukrainian rates.
This may turn out to be a losing bet as the collapse of the price of oil and sanctions,etc., may eventually boomerang on them.
Jason
The Ukraine army has been , from the start handing over its equipment and ammo to the ” rebels “, most equipment was stored in the east, obviously, it is coup junta that is running out of arms and ammo, NATO artillery shells turning up in the east, the Poles and others still use Soviet artillery.
Time is running out for the junta, and the army is not behind them.
Gerard. Have you considered stand up comedy. Because that gave a great laugh this morning.
The Ukrainian army are supplying weapons and ammo to the terrorists so they can kill the Ukrainian army with them. Priceless.
I can see the reaction in Moscow now. “He wrote what!!!!!!!!!”
“most equipment was stored in the east”
This is what happens when people who have absolutely no idea how supplying an army works comment on how an army is supplied. Even if a majority of the equipment owned by the Ukrainian Army fell into the hands of the rebels, that doesn’t change the fact that a lack of spare parts and ammunition would render them useless within a week.
Where are the rebels getting their guns? Where do the spares come from? Where does the fuel come from? Magical fuel, spares and ammo fairy’s?
Jason. According to Gerard the UA are supplying the Russian army/terrorists with weapons and ammo so they can then use those weapons and armour to fight the UA.
I have heard some great ones coming from the Russian propaganda system but that beats everything hands down so far.
Jason
You know nothing about the deployment of armies or the amount and disposition of stores by a large army like Russia, Ukraine or the USA.
Mick J
Yes Mick, you are a very simple minded fellow, you believe everything the press tell you to, the Ukraine army does not support the coup regime, many thousands have crossed the border into Russia when they got the chance, they gave their weapons to the rebels.
The reason the army is not doing well is that they don’t want to.
Gerard. Is it not the case that Most of the senior officers on the terrorist side are in fact serving Officers in the Russian army and Russia is supplying Arms, Munitions and Men to the terrorists. and you dont have to take my word for it. Have a read of this from the Moscow Times.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russian-army-facing-big-problems-in-ukraine/515636.html
Great article! I wish the tension in Ukraine will be fixed soon. I am learning ukrainian through skype at http://preply.com/en/ukrainian-by-skype to visit Ukraine soon and make a documentary about this.
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